U.S. Jobs Jumping Ship 1524
An anonymous reader writes "As painful as February's big job cuts were, they're even more painful since many of those jobs are never coming back as U.S. employers in a wide range of industries move more and more jobs overseas. CNN has the story." Salon has a good piece detailing how job requirements are changing, asking more and more for less and less pay.
World ending! News at 11! (Score:5, Insightful)
US vs. other countries (Score:3, Insightful)
I hate to point fingers but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Not that veering to the "right" too much doesn't cause catastrophe with monopolies and such, but we really have made doing business in this country incredibly difficult (especially small businesses). Haven't we asked for this?
There was a senator or rep who was a staunch Democrat who, when he retired, tried to start a small business (a hotel I think). His business floundered because of many of the extremely harsh policies that he himself had pushed. Also, former NYC mayor Ed Koch (of People's Court fame) began his term quite social minded, but he lamented that his ideas for transportation of homeless actually costed more than just paying for cab rides for every homeless person (there's more to it than this, my memory is just a bit shaky).
Basically, I feel the pendulum has swung too far to the right perhaps, and overseas business has gotten too attractive, since we've essentially pushed these businesses into a corner with our well-intentioned programs.
Not just the US. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's an ebb and flow. There will always be work to do, but kiss your dream job of designing websites for 6 figures per year goodbye - because it was never worth that much.
So what's the solution? (Score:5, Insightful)
The CNN article makes an intersting point good point
In the 1990s, it seemed all one had to do to buy a ticket to Easy Street was learn a programming language or how to manage corporate computer networks.
Okay, so I've learned a dozen ways to shoot my foot clean off [healyourch...ebsite.com] -- and now this article asserts that my skills are just as easily found abroad as here locally.
But is that really what is happening. When I read the above quote, I wonder, how many QUALITY programmers are losing their jobs to concerns overseas?
Similarly, if this is the case, okay, so now what? The computers didn't disappear, nor is the need for software going to go away.
Do we work for less? Do we (dare I say it) unionize? Pass laws? Comments, please.
Protectionism (Score:3, Insightful)
IMO, it's somewhat hypocritical to defend the U.S. as the great bastion of free-market capitalism, and then get extremely protectionistic when the jobs move somewhere cheaper.
That's the problem with a global economy --- it's global. If the standard of living in the U.S. can't be sustained because people elsewhere are willing to work for cheaper, then the standard of living will have to adjust. Of course, you know as well as I do that there's no way any politician will ever let the standard of living ever decrease, so we have protectionistic measures like repeatedly trying to save the steel industry, when market logic dictates that it should be mostly moving to Korea.
To end this comment on a bright note (hey, it's Friday, let's be optimistic about the future.), this could all be obviated by the march of technology. I'm betting on life being good once nanotechnology comes of age. Yeah, it's a while off, but then, today seemed a while off to the people of 1903.
Re:US vs. other countries (Score:0, Insightful)
First, the good ol' US of A is *very* socialist in some aspects. Take farm subsidies for an example.
Second, the state of the world economy can be directly attributed to the state of the US economy.
Third, your pondering on cheap (sic) 'labor' is without base, as Mexico is right on the US border and is cheap.
I don't understand why people are shocked (Score:1, Insightful)
There are many countries out there that pay for qualified students education, and of course, since the government is footing the bill they want them to get the best education so they send the students to American Universities.
Most American students emerge from Universities in debt, needed/expecting a big pay off for the financial risk they've taken - but why would a company pay them that much money when there's an equally qualified applicant pool that's not in debt and doesn't need that kind of pay?
Re:So much hand ringing over jobs... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's my firm belief that we are about to invade Iraq because the current batch in W. DC can't figure out how to improve the economy. (Hint: Economies flourish in a stable and peaceful world)
There has to be a lot of pent up demand out there considering that everyone has been stalled for a couple of years now.
No. If there's no demand, there's no demand. Interest rates are at incredibly low levels. Go an idea and can convince a bank to fund it? Go into business, best time ever for loans, no competition for the money. Why? People afraid nothing will succeed and they won't be able to pay back the loan.
I'm quite positive the image projected by the president has 90% to do with the health of the economy, and Bush projects fear and loathing. Clinton (what ever his other warts) projected a positive, inclusive image. It took a while, but economy grew. It started to shrink when it sunk in that the ride was almost over.
If we're saddle with Mr. 'Axis of Evil' for another 4 years, after 2004, we might as well open trade schools for ditch diggers.
Re:Estate of the Nation (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure you can, but remember that the american companies like coke, pepsi, McDonalds, KFC, PnG, Nike , etc etc have huge markets outside US, especially in far east populous countries like india, china, japan, korea
Now if govt. of these countries were to impose the same tariff that you speak of on imported american goods,
face it, the world is shrinking day by day, and if affects everybody's life in some way or another
America is a super-power in the world not because of its military , rather because of its economic dominance. But that economy can not be self contained, To be a world leader you have to play the same game on equal fields
To stay competetive in world markets the american companies need to reduce costs at all options, and labor cost is a very convenient option.
IT Exodus (Score:5, Insightful)
As a small business [peyser.com] systems administrator/web designer, I'm not sure that it's appropriate to claim that the IT industry will be leading the exodus overseas. Sure, call center workers, perhaps. But most of the people I know who consider themselves IT industry workers aren't working in call centers. With the plummeting rolls of visa applicants because of increased INS restrictions, "outsourcing" IT jobs to overseas has to focus on button pushing jobs (like first level support) or large-scale coding projects. I just don't see your average systems administrator being terribly worried about the market right now, despite the downturn. Maybe it's that my company works in DC with the federal government, but so far all the downsizing has done has been to trim the deadwood from shops that employed people who weren't very IT oriented to begin with. How many people listened to those radio ads and thought "I could be M$ Certified and make thousands more a year even though I know nothing about computers!" These people are the ones losing their jobs.
Nature of the Beast? (Score:2, Insightful)
Make it on your own (Score:4, Insightful)
Personally, I've always been a contractor, for over 8 years now and sure, the money isn't as good as it was 2-3 years ago, but I still make plenty and have constant work.
Plus, there are perks:
I get equity shares, not options.
I work from home so I don't have to commute.
But there are down sides:
Pay for my own medical
Pay a higher tax rate
Pay for subcontractors
Pay Pay Pay
Personally, I think there are many talented people on Slashdot who do server/network administration, web design/development and many other tech skills, and if they find it's hard finding a Fulltime position might stand to benefit from consulting rather than job hunting.
Recessions (Score:5, Insightful)
Christ, if you think this is bad, thank God that we weren't alive during the Great Depression. That didn't sink us, and this won't either. Also, for those who argue that this time it's different because of globalization: the world was more globalized in 1910 than it is now, because of European colonialism.
Re:Sad Sad day (Score:3, Insightful)
Companies exist to make profit, not to please customers. If pleasing customers is the surest route to profit, then that is the direction that they will head. If say, customers would prefer something cheap over something with good service, then companies will ditch service in favor of cutting costs. Its not sad, its just an economic reality.
Aren't we being Selfish? (Score:5, Insightful)
Think of the people in India that just had their standard of living raised. Who is to say that their living standard is less important than your living standard?
We complain and complain about the Recording Industry backing up a "inferior business model".
So are we! Its time we found something else that we can do better/different.
Welcome to a free trade world (Score:3, Insightful)
Having spent days hacking around with some perl code that my (non-IT literate) colleagues think is just magic, I know that this sort of thing is really not very high skill at all and so of course graduates in Bangalore could do it for less money.
In the mean time we ought to use our greater capital stock and education systems to learn even higher skills and stay ahead in the game.
I had an Indian Dell Encounter... BAD! (Score:4, Insightful)
Trying to make anyone on their phone or email support understand was equivalent to banging my head against the wall, at least when they had a foreign accent. It went like this:
ME: " I have this problem"
DELL: "Here's a suggestion that is irrelevant to your problem" - something along the lines of, put in your System Recover disk.
ME: "No, you don't understand...blah blah blah"
DELL: "Here's the same suggestion, verbatim, that is still irrelevant to your problem"
ME: "You're not listening!"
DELL: *Repeats same scripted response again*
Finally, after doing this about 6 times, they finally broke down and handed me to an American supervisor. Once they did:
ME: "I have a problem..."
DELL: " OK, we have this solution, OK?"
And with that, a new Linux/Win2k compatible sound card was sent out. What should have taken 10 minutes instead ate up a full day. I guess a full day of 800 phone charges is cheaper than 10 minutes of American salary.
The lesson I learned: it may be cheaper to buy a Dell than building it yourself, but it is just not worth the aggro. Which means that I'd buy or recommend Dell if the support were actually an added value, and probably pay more than they're charging now.
Yeah, I'd say that this free trade thing ain't working out.
Technology crests and troughs (Score:2, Insightful)
There have been nearly twenty years of back to back innovations in computer technology that have created whole industires, including
-Personal Computers
-Client Server Computing
-GUI
-The World Wide Web
As each of these technologies took off, people stood to make large sums of money supporting/developing them. Businesses started, merged and were acquired by larger businesses. As the technology matures and supply for expertise catches up with demand, the sums become relatively smaller. The last twenty years of Information Technology have seen one innovation after another. As much as there are a few new technologies on the horizon, I'm not sure the next twenty years will be as active as the last twenty years.
Re:I hate to point fingers but... (Score:3, Insightful)
That argument doesn't hold water. Take the auto workers, for example. Let's say they made just 8$ an hour. That's a large cut in pay, but still about ten times what a Malaysian would make. Here in Texas, unions are less prevalent, and the prices of consumer goods are (on average) 50 to 70 percent the price of what goods are in the Northeast coast (my friend goes to Yale; we've discussed this), where everyone makes twice as much but spends twice as much.
Unfortunately many lefties (and I consider myself more a moderate righty than anything extreme) don't understand the basics of business, and put businesses' back to the wall, and force them out. The auto industry can't just quadruple prices if they quadruple labor costs, since foreign cars compete at lower prices because they don't have this problem. So, American car companies have had to cut costs in the cars themselves, and the result is losing quality. American cars used to be the most dependable, now they're a joke!
So what's your solution? Have tons of social programs and lament as companies leave? Force them to stay here? Or cut down on the programs, let business boom, and pass that economic gain to the average American? It isn't this simple, and monopolies for example can screw people in a big way, but I still find it a better philosophy.
NOT a free trade world (Score:3, Insightful)
We're dealing with countries that have no regulations about the health and well being of employees.
We're dealing with countries that have no regulations about the environment.
We're dealing with countries where the economies are still centrally planned enough such that the cost of labor doesn't rise with demand.
When there is truly a level playing field, sign me up. But stop tooting about how the siphoning off of jobs is somehow related to the holy grail of Free Trade.
Re:News at 11 (Score:2, Insightful)
Here's how it breaks down: They are just as good as you, and work just as hard, for a fraction of what you want to get paid. You are not obligated to live in the US. Companies are not obligated to hire US based employees.
If you don't like it, well, shut up because you can't change it. It's called economics, and even if you want something else to be true, it isn't going to happen.
Why do people continue to bitch about this? You are over-capitalized, and are obsolete. Find another profession.
Farming - worst job in the nation. Also exported. (Score:3, Insightful)
Farming has been listed as the most undesirable job in the US for a decade. Don't think your food must be grown locally.
most of these are design jobs (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact is, a smart employer is going to try and get the best people for their money. Because of the sorry state of the economy, you can hire web designers for $30K/year. As to those who actually like the idea unionizing IT, I can't think of a worse solution. Unions were once a necessary evil when work conditions were deadly, people were being exploited, and children were forced to work. Today, Unions exist in sectors where it easy to Unionize or the product or service is crucial to the economy, dock workers for example. Unions don't allow promotion based upon performance, instead factors such as years in the union and degree level decide promoteability and pay-rate. You could be the shittiest teacher in a PA school but if you have your masters, you will receive X amount of money simple because of your degree. There are countless other examples detailing the evils of unions, not that all unions are evil. Without unions, workers would not have the protections that exist today, but the Union model is outdated for the 21 century. Ever try getting a booth setup at the Javitz center?
Is this -really- a bad thing? (Score:5, Insightful)
$.02
Re:If foreigners are better workers, so what? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not the economy, nor is it the quality of thw work done. It is the insatiable greed of the business owners who would sell their company's long-term profitability, and the company itself, down the river to beat the next quarterly earnings predictions.
Read up on what happened to Montana Power and Electric to see this unchecked greed at its worst. A company that was profitable for over 100 years is now dead. Buried under the gree and stupidity of the last CEO.
It's worse than it appears? (Score:3, Insightful)
These overall job losses are happening despite a probable 75,000 job openings. Eeek.
BS spiral (Score:2, Insightful)
The trick is bullshitting. Nobody really has all those skills they request. However, bullshitting just keeps inflating the requirements. For example, HR might think, "Well the last person [claimed to] have 8 years of Java and
There is almost no way that companies can verify that sombody has all 15 skills listed (I just got rejected from one the other day because I only had 13 out of 15). The only person who could probably check is the person who *left* the positition they are trying to fill, especially in a smaller company.
Bad decade to be in I.T. Time for a liberal arts degree instead?
Prosperity went down in the 80's and 90's (Score:5, Insightful)
In the early 70's, you could:
Buy an average car for 1/4 to 1/3 of a yearly average household income.
Buy a house for 2x-5x of a yearly average household income.
Today, its more like:
Buy an average car for 1/2 or more of a yearly average household income.
Houses start at 5x yearly average household income.
But here's the kicker: in the early 70's, there was almost always ONE breadwinner making up the average household income. Now, its almost always TWO.
When I was a kid living in Brooklyn, taxi drivers routinely owned homes and cars, and mom didn't work. Today, Mom and Dad work in some service drone job, and can't make ends meet. And that was true 10 and 20 years ago.
Things have gotten a lot worse.
Huh. (Score:2, Insightful)
You get what you pay for. Most of these programming jobs going overseas for half the price are being completed with what can be only described as half an ass. Every example (with few exceptions) of these "discount" programming firms code I have seen is horrendous. I would wager that 90% of these cheap programming firms output pure crap.
Seriously. I have heard of programs coming back from India (and other places) that have pages upon pages of mere variable syncing (Output = Out_put, Output = Out-Put, Output = OutputA, ect...) and other programming horrors.
Another problem is merely the overflow of programmers. Programming in itself is a grunt job. Peon work if you will. The reason it was so highly regarded before is because people who could program were rare. Now they are a dime a dozen. A great analogy is the car mechanic in how there was an overflow of labor force. However, good programmers just like good mechanics will always find work. Everyone needs computers and everyone needs cars.
Just my opinions.
-Purpling
Re:Estate of the Nation (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't vote for people like Bush, because they're only concerned with War and God (in that order). I think most of the Republican Party's core values are good, and would benefit this country, so voting Republican is a pragmatic decision to get those policies implemented. IF the Republican party swung things too far to the right, then I WOULD vote democrat.
Liberal-conservative is a phony paradigm that defines the parameters of the debates in a rather silly fashion, but I can't help but to be annoyed with Democratic policies with respect to the economy (and the other way around with civil rights, but only within the last 5 years).
Unions (Score:5, Insightful)
and I'm glad we still have H1B's galore (Score:5, Insightful)
now I see that they truly did have our best interests in mind. Employers say "the industry no longer pays salaries like that" when they mean "there are hungry immigrants that are willing to do your job for half your salary"
a big "cheers" to the US government.
Re:Estate of the Nation (Score:5, Insightful)
I hate to say this, but.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Same job cheaper is better (Score:2, Insightful)
Nevermind the amount of money we invested over the decades in infrastructure and education, let's hock the family silver and piss away the foundation of American society so a few corporate assholes can get insanely rich.
Wake up and see the writing on the wall. Globalization isn't about freedom and economic equality, its about treating human beings like capital and extracting as much wealth as possible from their labors.
What the hell happened? The economy is supposed to work for us, not enslave us to a lifetime of corporate servitude.
Re:Estate of the Nation (Score:5, Insightful)
To stay competetive in world markets the american companies need to reduce costs at all options, and labor cost is a very convenient option.
Oh, really? Then why is it that it's only the worker's jobs that get offshored? American companies could save many millions of dollars per year by offshoring management jobs, but that never happens.
We have American companies claiming offshore workers are better and cheaper (which is one-half bullshit) except when it comes to management. Now isn't that remarkable? We have American CEOs getting obscene salaries and bonuses for putting American residents out of work.
Re:We Do that (Score:2, Insightful)
That seems about right the way things in IT are turning out. I'd like to see, well, even $9/hour would be nicer.
But all through our youth, we were told how cool computers were. I fell prey to it. I could have stuck with my first love, astronomy, and have a fine career doing
And because everyone went into computers, a company gets hundreds of applications for every position, so they no longer have to pay as much as in the fast food or manufacturing industries. What corporation could resist the HR equivalent of buying a stereo from a crack addict?
I blame Commodore, Atari, and Tandy for ruining my life. There's a lawsuit in this, I bet. Are any of those companies still around to sue?
I don't buy this (Score:5, Insightful)
- The quality of the work being done by Indian (or whatever) programmers (or whatever) varies wildly. Some of it is good, a lot if it is not.
- In my experience, companies like Amex who outsourced their entire IT needs to IBM India (yes, IBM India) and let loose hundreds of employees are now rehiring those same employees (mostly analysts and PMs) through third-tier consulting firms at a much lower cost. So they get the quality they need (because they can't get it from Indians) but they save a bundle of money. It's not uncommon to find a project manager at Amex directing 15 indians that used to be manager or director of so-and-so two years ago. This is (I think) more about deflating the job market than shipping jobs to other countries.
- The perennial "web programmer" and "web designer" and so on is out of work because there is no more market for them. There are no more dotcoms hiring teams of 20 people to "design" three web pages at ~$60K+ per year. No way. But software developers and architects and so on with solid experience and real skills are still finding jobs. The subject of the Salon article sounds to me more like one of those foofy "html programmers" or equivalent than anything else.
The dotcom boom created thousands of jobs that were filled by people with 6 months of experience and a "computer degree" from a community college or Devry. Sorry, but those are gone. No more demand. These people should go back to what they were doing before the went into "computers" to make "big bucks".It sounds callous, but it's true.
Re:Protectionism (Score:5, Insightful)
Tell you what.... when it's as easy for me to go to another country and work as it is for foreigners to come HERE and work for peanuts.... then maybe I'll think about not complaining about it.
As it is, I'm competing with foreign workers, college educated (at no cost to themselves generally, or they're from one of the few wealthy families in their home region,) who are willing to do the same job for less money because they don't care about having an american standard of living even tho they're living in america, and they aren't as deep in debt as I am from student loans.
Know what? I'd love to spend a few years working in another country. Australia? Yeah.... I can work for three months at a time. Most of Europe? I have to either be independantly wealthy... (be able to prove I can support myself for a given number of months) or have a business to start up. (No.... websites don't count.)
People are bitching about 'protectionism' a lot on this thread... but none of them ever seem to mention the protectionist policies of OTHER COUNTRIES.
When I actually CAN 'follow the jobs' the way people from other countries can, we can talk.
Re:Supply and demand (Score:5, Insightful)
so don't compare 1980 money to tadays.
I would gladly lower my salary to 25K, if the price of everything I pay for was in 1980 prices.
Dell is just lousy in general. (Score:3, Insightful)
These things jumped out at me:
1. Their order tracking system is so unreliable that they are willing to assume (with no data in their system) that you placed an order for something, and it's just magically lost data.
2. Their pricing system does not allow them to see the sale prices offered on the web site.
3. They were unable to re-place a botched order at the price it was ordered at, and had to resort to issuing a credit to my card attached to an old order to make up the price difference!
4. There is no consistency in the abilities the reps have. Some could change prices. Some could place orders. Some could change past orders. Most couldn't do any, and nobody could do it all.
In short, I don't think it's any sort of "American tech support is better than Indian" argument. It's just that Dell sucks.
The reason "this free trade thing ain't working out" is that we don't have free trade. If things were truly open, do you really think labor in other countries would be so much cheaper? Things will even out in time. Our grandkids may even have a realistic world economy, where the value of labor doesn't fluctuate by factors of 100 based on where you live. But I'm not holding my breath-- this stuff moves slowly. Really slowly. This kind of outsourcing is better for the world in the long run, even if it sucks for our job market short-term.
Welcome to economics 101 (Score:2, Insightful)
And tariffs would just solve all the problems, wouldn't they?
Come on people! Globilization works both ways and the end result is a better, stronger GLOBAL economy. Local economies will suffer, but to not expand markets reduces progression and innovation in every field. Globilization of markets helped the United States become as prosperous as it is today. However, free markets include a free labor market which means more labor mobility which means high paid US workers are going to see jobs shipped elsewere. End result? Indian (or whoever) workers see higher standard of living with in influx of jobs, while US workers will see a loss in the job market and downward pressure on the standard of living. It means you have to change. It means you have to take the good with the bad. It means you can't just think it's your stupid right as an American to have the highest standard of living in the world and just because you got a college degree the economy "owes" you a good job. As a US citizen, I see the trend for globilization of the labor market as a good thing because it means better long term growth and progress on a global scale, not just American. If America can't keep up, oh well. But as an individual, I can, even if I have to move or change careers.
Perhaps I'm flaming the wrong poster, but my point is that everyone only likes to see the benificial sides of economic progress but can't take their own medicine when the inevitable consequences follow. If you're willing to move, change and adapt you will not only survive, but thrive in any economic condition. If you're only willing to see the status quo remain so and want to close off your borders and protect local interests, you will stagnate and eventually get passed by.
Re:Here's a job I saw last year (Score:5, Insightful)
%100 dead serious!
I am unemployed and I am about to apply for a 7.50/hr job at OfficeMax stocking shelve's. I moved back in with my parents because I can no longer afford rent. It would look so good on my resume to do any tech work that I would be willing to work for the same pay as a merchandiser at a store.
This is the reason why many jobs are going to India. You guys are not willing to work for this price range. Believe it or not an Indian could do that job for 5k a year! No shit!
20k a year is expensive in the eyes of CIO's. If we volunteer to work for 15k then they might not ship us off to India. If we demand 40k then you can kiss your career goodbye.
Re:Sad Sad day (Score:2, Insightful)
Wal-Mart.
Re:Not just the US. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I hate to point fingers but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sooner or later the trend in outsourcing is going to bite us in the ass, and not in the way that most expect (i.e. improved foreign competition). The United States is a consumer society. The economy cannot survive without that day-to-day addiction we call shopping. You should thank those $20/hour auto workers for going out to the mall and buying televisions, DVD players, computers, and so on (instead of throwing the cash in a Swiss bank account), b/c such behavior makes the things we love inexpensive for everyone. Not to mention the fact that a job in the mall or the local coffee shop is a better evening diversion for a teenager than drugs, gang participation, or other forms of self-destruction. Lower those wages to "reasonable" levels and enjoy the fallout as nobody has any money to purchase anything, save payment of rent/mortgage and other debts.
There seem to be two possible futures for the United States. The first is a somewhat mid-20th century model, where the country is predominantly middle class, and the nation as a whole is stronger for it (and no, trolls, mid-20th century racism and sexism ARE NOT essential components of a middle-class model). The second is a model where a sizable but still small number of elites controls the wealth of the country, and the lower class has no voice. This model is currently in operation in many third-world countries. Only one of these models represents a peaceful, liveable future. If you like the second model, enjoy the dirty bombs and mirrorshades.
Re:So much hand ringing over jobs... (Score:5, Insightful)
True the uncertainty over Iraq is stalling economic recovery, but the flip side to this is that the bust is so bad precisely because the boom was waaaaayy too big. Nasdaq worth 5400?
No, the Nasdaq was never really worth 5400, people just kept throwing money at the market, inflating it to unsustainable highs. One of the big problems we're facing now is people are complaining about when the Nasdaq will get back that high, when in reality it never should have been even clost to that high in the first place.
In reality the "irrational exuberance" of the late 90's, whether or not attributed to Clinton, is the reason the downturn is what it is and why it is so hard to get out of. In reality the President at the time has very little to do with economy in many circumstances. The
Re:I hate to point fingers but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Highly paid, rigid labor markets are on full display in France and Germany. Compared to our unemployment rate, they're perenially stuck at 10% give or take, a much worse figure. The union effect is real.
Re:and I'm glad we still have H1B's galore (Score:1, Insightful)
Going back even further, when I was graduating from uni - roughly about 70% companies who came to the school's job fairs specified that they would NOT consider non US citizens/green card holders.
So, the argument that H1Bs are taking job away from US citizens are vastly inflated.
Re:So much hand ringing over jobs... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Estate of the Nation (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Sad Sad day (Score:2, Insightful)
Example, Midas Muffler ripped me off hard core 14 years ago. I have never been back, and I tell everyone I know not to go there as well.
Just Remember That It's Magic (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:We Do that (Score:3, Insightful)
At first, I thought, "what crap", but then I realized $9/hr. is about right for lots of jobs outside IT that don't require lots of critical thinking. Basically, $9/hr. is better than 'Cashier' but not as good as 'Technician II' in the grand scheme of things.
Unfortunately, the last decade has seen our standards go way beyond $9/hr. being a livable wage. It seems the U.S. is in for an "attitude adjustment". This, in itself, is actually healthy, but lots of people will be bitching about it, regardless.
Re:Estate of the Nation (Score:3, Insightful)
Here's where I feel like social programs that do a lot of good can work. Ditch them all at the federal level, and devolve them to the state and local level. If the state of Wyoming wants a great public education, and it's voters support the cost, by all means let them do it. 300 million Americans won't ever agree, but maybe 2 million might, or even 500,000. Let local politics rule these issues, and everyone will be happy (if not, then you can go somewhere where you feel more at home with the issues and voting blocks).
Studies have shown that political efficacy (how much you feel the government responds to your needs) have declined at the federal level, but increased at the local level in the last 25 years. Hence, people feel like local politicians will respond and that they have a say, but at the federal level, they have no power. If local politics got more power, and communites would meet in a secular way (like the colonial town meetings), people could get things done.
The scary thing to me is that both parties are now bent on increasing the government, be it socially and domestically, or with defense budgets and morality laws.
Falling off the Wave (Score:5, Insightful)
I've had my share of ups and downs in this industry. I started my career in the Savings & Loan industry -- and after that industry went bust in the early 80s, I had to find a new place to make a buck. A similar collapse hit the "web industry" over the last five years (lots of unjustified hype, bad management, etc.) -- and while I wasn't writing web pages or Flash animations, I was affected nonetheless. I worked as a development director/lead technologist at a couple small businesses that killed themselves by leaving reliable industries to "webify" their product. Both companies are gone, but I'm still here.
There's nothing unique to the computer industry when it comes to bust-boom cycles. It happens all the time in other industries. My wife began her working life 25 years ago as a geological drafter -- you know, with pens, ink, fancy templates. The collapse of the oil and minerals industry did more to end her career than any new reliance on computer-aided drafting. Is she crying in her soup? Heck no -- she worked for various social agencies, often for low wages or free, and built herself a new career in disaster recovery and education. Businesses may come and go, but there'll always be disasters. ;)
Right now, I'm doing contract work, writing a book, and placing myself for a "coming thing" that may or not be big in our industry. My wife has a nice, stable job; our kids learned long ago that their Mom and I don't listen to "gimme, gimme." It's sometimes difficult, but we keep surviving. Never surrender, never give up -- a good philosophy from a very funny movie.
Re:Estate of the Nation (Score:3, Insightful)
Try telling that to Iraq....
Economy without military doesn't make a superpower any more then military without economy does. You gotta have both to be dominant.
Let me break it down for you (Score:5, Insightful)
Gun Laws - ridiculous. 2nd ammendment is there in the CONSTITUTION. Republicans win this one.
4th Ammendment - Republicans want to search you, your house, your moms house etc in the name of the "war on drugs" and now the "war on terror" Dems aren't much fuckin' better. But dems are a little looser so dems win this one.
Abortion - Well in reality making it illegal doesn't prevent it from happening, it simply makes it punishable. so even if you are against abortion, you have to realize outlawing it is futile. Dems win this one. Women truly have a choice in reality. A choice between a safe & legal abortion or no abortion is better than a choice between a dangerous illegal abortion or no abortion. Even God would agree with this logic.
Corporate welfare vs worker rights/ Labor. Until I own a corporation, I have to consider myself a worker. Dems win this one. How anyone can vote for something that will reduce their wages, reduce their health care, make them work longer hours all so that some asshole in a board room can export thier job to india to make even more money is beyond me. WAKE THE FUCK UP. How 'bout a little self preservation!!!! Unless you own a corporation, you need to see the light!!!
Jails versus Education: hmm, spend money on educating our children so that they will be prepared to lead our country when they inherit it, or cut spending in schools and parks & rec programs only to eventually spend more money on jails to house our misguided uneducated forgotten youth? tough one here. gee, what should we do ?
Democrats win. Republicans are greedy assholes who can afford private shools for their children. What about the rest of the nations. Those punk asses that are not getting education and resort to crime will hopefully rob your house you greedy fuckheads. (unfortunately you rich bastards live ina gated community, so they'll rob my house and the house of other working men and women, which is unfortunate because it's YOUR POLICY that destroyed thier chances of making it in this world).
Corporate friendly env. policy versus environmental friendly environmental policy. Hmm, in my short life time I've seen 200-500% growth in my home town. Land Development is BIG BUSINESS. It's sad to see them rape the land to build a shitload of cheap ass houses all crammed in tight next to eachother. If those greedy fucks would build one or two less houses per project then all the families that moved in would get yards and a little bit of privacy. Instead they are living in a future ghetto that frankly looked better as natural land. That's the friendliest of the land uses. Chemical plants, manufacturing plants, refineries, junk yards. SHEESH!!! This whole country will be one paved piece of shit in less than 50 years. It's fine if you own a big ass ranch in texas, who cares if your refinery pollutes the fuck out of some poor neighborhood in the wrong side of town. Maybe it will kill those "niggas" before you have to arrest them after they drop out of that shitty high school you wouldn't approve the tax dollars to fix up because you wanted some tax cuts to afford to pay off the crooked politician who allowed the refinery. FUCK!!! Democrats win this one too.
You see, aside from the gun thing, republican policy benefits only a small minority of wealthy assholes. The rest of us get screwed every which way in a increasingly painful cycle. We lose our jobs so our kids go to cheap schools which don't get good funding because money is going to corporations so our kids poor and pissed off do drugs or get pregnant or drop out or graduate and go to college despite the odds, then they lose their jobs and their kids go to crap schools, etc. etc. over and over again while more and more of us become poor and a few fortunate a-holes get richer and richer.
well, it can only go on for so long before we unite and kill you you fuckin rich assholes
Re:Estate of the Nation (Score:5, Insightful)
If companies like HP would simply hire management offshores, or even a low cost, intelligent CEO from another country, they could save millions a year.
But somehow, that isn't happening, is it?
I am for tariffs on good from other countries. Impose them left and right. As I recall, prior to income taxes being imposed (which was supposed to be a temporary thing, btw) we mainly relied on tarrifs. This brought the 'best and brightest' here, instead of now where we ship the best and brightest jobs to them.
I do not see how creating a 'world economy' helps anyone but the rich. It deflates wages. Maybe I am missing the picture here. Maybe there is a grand schema that will allow balance across the globe. If that is the case, then this isn't capitolism, it is socialism, right? Get everyone on an equal ground? But I can't and don't see that. I only see that somehow jobs are harder to find, and those I do find pay a lot less. I am not speaking of
Huh? (Score:2, Insightful)
The economy IMO is back to where it should be, after the excesses of the late 90s. Nobody needs a department full of pot-smoking Dreamweaver "experts" anymore.
- A.P.
Re:I hate to point fingers but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Proving that CEOs make a lot of money does nothing for any argument, because wages increase with responsibility.
Besides, 20$ an hour for an 8$ an hour job, thrown over the tens of thousands of Ford Employees (maybe even hundreds, but I don't care to check) is not "small time gains" as you say; in fact, the only "small time gains" in your post are the CEO earnings (one big number is nothing compared to a whole heap of small ones).
Re:Recessions (Score:2, Insightful)
No, you won't be in a places with 10 compusa type stores, no you won't have large Opera/theatre. Nor will you make much money (in the 20-30k range - still good for this area though). Don't ask for the moon (one of the people who graduated with me always asked for 35k and did not get a job untill he dropped to about 20k - be realistic in what you ask for)
They will only care about your technical skills for the hire - but they won't garner you any extra money. They don't want a whizbang programmer, they want a programmer.
You're comparing apples and oranges (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sad Sad day (Score:1, Insightful)
An example. Last year I shot off an email to hp about Linux support for one of their scanners. The person who replied didn't understand my questions and obviously wasn't fluent in English. End result was I didn't buy a scanner and am just letting my negatives pile up. I still need a scanner and will eventually buy one, but am I expecting to buy one from hp? Heck no. Perhaps I'll end up going with hp, but it won't be because I'm impressed with their customer service and support. It won't take much for one of their competitors to take my money instead.
When I see greedhead corporate officers driving a company to the point where it can *only* compete on price, that's sad, like going to market and seeing a good milk cow with a rope around its neck, if you know what I mean.
Re:Here Is the Problem With Bitchy IT Workers (Score:3, Insightful)
The ultimate goal of a good programer is to do away with repetitive tedious work. As that happens, processes streamline and less employees are needed for the same operations until eventually they are all replaced.
The programmer is here to replace unskilled workers with robots. Don't you think that's worth a load of money to a CEO who is looking 5-15 years down the road? The problem of today is that they are no longer looking at the road, they are looking at the tail-lights ahead of them and guessing whether the guy will brake or go.
Re:Welcome to economics 101 (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:News at 11 (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I hate to point fingers but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Have you tried raising a family on $8/hour lately? Here in Indiana (where prices are also much less than on the East Coast), there are McDonalds hiring for $7/hour. Good luck buying a house, or even renting one, on $8/hour.
Or cut down on the programs, let business boom, and pass that economic gain to the average American? The biggest problem I see with this is that trickle-down economics DON'T WORK. When the people at the top of the economic food chain make more money, they don't pass that money down to the guys making $8/hour, they keep it.
Re:So much hand ringing over jobs... (Score:3, Insightful)
When you cut through the bullshit, America will not be what it is today had it not known how to lead and win(and lose some) wars. War, as ugly as it is, is necessary for the health of the state. For those dumbfucks who do not grasp the concept of war and how it applies to economics - well too fucking bad. The writing is on the wall.. 'cept that most of us are blind to see it.
Re:Estate of the Nation (Score:5, Insightful)
I can think of one part of the picture you're missing: In the eyes of 5,000,000,000 people of the 6,000,000,000 on the planet, you are "the rich".
> Maybe there is a grand schema that will allow balance across the globe.
If by "balance", you mean "equally distribute all wealth among all 6,000,000,000 people", here's another part of the picture you're missing.
If you want that kind of "balance", be prepared to give up air conditioning, your automobile, your paved roads, your heart surgeon, your chemotherapy, your MRI scans, your broadband and 56k modems for a 2400-9600 baud serial line, and a couple of hours a day of electricity.
In short, be prepared to live a lifestyle below that of the poorest inner-city welfare mother. If that offends you as a racist stereotype, replace it with "the most inbred hillbillies in the Appalacians".
I won't presume to speak for you, but as for me, I'm not prepared to do that. As a citizen of a Western nation in a capitalist economy, I was born into the top 15% of the planetary socioeconomic pyramid. I like it here. I'm staying here. And I'm willing to pay 20% of my earnings, every year, to the top 1% to keep it that way. (The top 1% currently takes about 40% of those earnings, but that's haggling over price, not a fundamental argument about the principle :)
> I only see that somehow jobs are harder to find, and those I do find pay a lot less. I am not speaking of .Com era wages, but prior to that- the early to mid 90s era.
The first part is called a "recession". They tend to be finite in length.
The second part is called "deflation". It happens to CPU prices when better CPU designs reach the market, and/or when competing companies design a comparable CPU but charges less. It happens to wages when skills become obsolescent, and/or when competing workers offer the same work you do, for less price.
If you're in the CPU business, you can either cut your price, or build a better CPU. If you're in the job market, you can either lower your salary expectations, or learn about a new technology.
Re:and I'm glad we still have H1B's galore (Score:1, Insightful)
At my last job AND at my current job - with almost a hundred Indian contractors. (As in still citezens of India). Many contracted for about half what the company pays regular employees. The companies pay for their lodging, as they are willing to share rooms - living 4 per 1 bedroom apartment, and they charge less and send all their money home to India.
They are almost all very nice people, and good programmers. They work very long hours, and don't complain.
Maybe that is the American worker's fault - but the fact remains - jobs are taken away by immigrants. If we need immigrants in US companies - they should be from Alabama or Texas.
The simple fact of the matter is that if there are not enough people to do the jobs here - we should be training or cross-training the unemployed to fill the jobs. Not hiring people from somewhere else. Not while we have 8% unemployment in the whole pacific northwest...
Re:So? What's wrong with that? (Score:5, Insightful)
Since the government started granting charters for corporations being a public good? Since businesses get many tax benefits that individuals don't get and cry about "lost jobs" any time anyone talks about getting rid of them? Since our tax dollars pay for the promotion of their products to overseas markets? Since we send our sons and daughters overseas to protect their economic interests in other countries?
Perhaps they don't owe me a job, but they sure as hell owe some people in this country jobs for everything that we provide to them.
Re:Farming - worst job in the nation. Also exporte (Score:3, Insightful)
However, a bigger factor is quite simple: farming is a job that can be done by anybody in the world. All you need is a little dirt and the willingness to do back-breaking labor. American auto workers compete with Japanese auto workers. American farmers compete with with every single poor person in the world.
The only reason Americans were ever able to compete in farming was technological innovation. Tractors, fertilizer, crop rotation and a pile of other techniques enabled them to be able to produce more than their overseas counterparts.
However, in the last century, these technological improvements have made their way overseas. Monsanto seed is used worldwide. Crop rotation and other techniques have been translated to other languages.
So now, the American farmer has to compete on labor once again. My next door neighbor (pretty much on his own) runs 500 cattle and grows crops two square miles of land. He makes a profit three years out of five. Then people ask me why I don't want to 'get in touch with the land.'
-Brett
Re:Estate of the Nation (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Estate of the Nation (Score:2, Insightful)
Even when you have no job?
Re:So much hand ringing over jobs... (Score:4, Insightful)
> That's just silly - why not? Are they waiting to see if Iraq maybe wins?
Actually, they are.
In order for me to make good money selling widgets, I need to build widgets cheaply, and you need to have enough money to buy them at a price that allows me to make money.
If oil is expensive, widgetmaking is expensive. My widget factory needs electricity and heat. My widgets might be made out of plastic. My widget factory might have to fly widgetparts in by FedEx, or hire truck drivers to deliver pallets of finished widgets to widget stores.
Likewise, if oil is expensive, you're spending more money on gasoline and have less money left over to buy widgets.
Right now, oil is expensive becase we don't know how much of it is gonna flow after the war. If Saddam manages to drag this thing out long enough to permanently destroy his wells and pipelines, or to spread this around and destroy other nations' oil infrastructure, oil will remain expensive. Last time around, he made a big mess, but we got the mess cleaned up in less than six months, and I'm sure you know what happened to the economy from 1991 forwards.
By the way, the price of oil fell to around $10/barrel in 1997. Funny what else happened to the economy around 1997, isn't it?
Re:I hate to point fingers but... (Score:3, Insightful)
The CEO of, say, Ford, Nasser earned $9,300,000 US in 2000, probably more since. How many $40,000 / year union jobs do you think that is?
Ummmm. 232.5. Actually probably fewer because there are large fixed costs associated even with cheaply paid employees.
Cheap and Greedy (Score:2, Insightful)
That's what it's all about!!
Most companies are not happy making 65% profit off their goods, they want more and become more greedy!! So what do they do?? They do stuff like this, they look for ways to increase case flow and in-turn increase profits. Basic...Basic...Basic...So companies will always look ways to lower salaries. Either go overseas or layoff poeple.
And this also relates to salaries...At what point would you be happy enuff with your current pay??? 60K,110K, 35k?????
I find that I don't care that someone is taking a lower pay job and shipping it overseas!! I wouldn't be doing that job anyway.
Re:It's not that bad. Quit whining. (Score:4, Insightful)
There have been other U.S. industries that have been moved offshore permanently....the steel industry & heavy tool & die, for instance, is but a shell of its former self here (my dad's industry)
What're the next Big Things? Healthcare, biotech, nanotech, alternative energy, security....plenty of things to keep a geek happy, but first our employment recruiting process needs an overhaul...we geeks can learn new things, and don't want to be doing the same thing for 10+ years. Hopefully HR & recruiters will sprout a brain stem in this matter soon, as there will be new kinds of jobs, and NO ONE will have 5+ years experience doing them.
Re:Sad Sad day (Score:2, Insightful)
How many times will you buy a Dell computer if you feel ripped off by Dell? Once.
How many times will you buy or recommend the purchase of a Dell computer if you feel like they gave you prompt, courteous service? Lots of times.
Which makes Dell more money? If your business model is just to screw everybody once, rather than try to build a customer base, you're a fool.
Re:and I'm glad we still have H1B's galore (Score:0, Insightful)
Well, whatever.. My parents were immigrants. That's what this country is about. Get used to it or take your xenophobia somewhere else.
now I see that they truly did have our best interests in mind. Employers say "the industry no longer pays salaries like that" when they mean "there are hungry immigrants that are willing to do your job for half your salary"
I don't think so. We have one H1B here, and he makes much more than me. Why? Because he is highly skilled and worth what he's paid. If the industry no longer pays greats salaries, it has nothing to do with immigrants.
Re:I hate to point fingers but... (Score:4, Insightful)
I dunno about union math, but my math gives me "9,300,000 / 40,000 = 232.5" And that's ignoring the costs to the employer in terms of payroll taxes, pension benefits, and health care that turn those $40K jobs into $50-60-70K expenses.
But let's stick with $40K in our plan to ifre the CEO and redistribute his $9.3M of ill-gotten wealth to the glorious proletariat!
Congrats, you've saved two hundred and thirty-two jobs out of 335,000 [ford.com] according to the 2002 report. Workers of the world, get in line, because it's gonna be a long wait.
> My question is, why are you concerned with small time gains at the bottom the the really flagrant theft and waste is going on up top?
My question is, why are you concerned with small time excesses at the top when the really flagrant waste of shareholder value is going on at the bottom?
Re:Sad Sad day (Score:3, Insightful)
I was going to mod you up as "insightful" for stating the obvious, but then:
If pleasing customers is the surest route to profit, then that is the direction that they will head.
AAAahahahahahaha.
Funny response:
You're new here, aren't you?
Flamebait response:
Mictosoft, Product Activation, Licensing 6.0.
General Response:
You must have missed something, I think.
*coff*enron*coff*worldcom*coff*bush*coff*
.
Re:We Do that (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:So much hand ringing over jobs... (Score:2, Insightful)
Maybe if Mr. "I invented the Internet" and his boss had been more forthcoming about the state of the economy before the election (remember Bush saying the economy was already in a recession during the debates? Remember Gore jumping on his *ss for it?), the bubble wouldn't have gotten so big, and the bust would likely be over by now.
But that would have meant losing the election, and that trumps the general welfare any day.
Too hard to run manufacturing in the US (Score:2, Insightful)
In the immortal words of C3PO "we're doomed"
Re:Estate of the Nation (Score:3, Insightful)
The world economy was not created deliberately - it's a natural consequence of the free market.
One of the natural consequences of the free market, in turn, is the flow of wealth from the rich to the poor. We get poorer, the rest of the world gets richer. That's probably going to happen a bit more in the future.
Clearly though, there is at the moment huge disparities in wealth, and yet the world markets are relatively free. There are of course trade barriers, but they are frowned upon, and are the exception rather than the rule. The current administration uses them more than they should, but...
So, why is the west still rich, and large parts of the rest of the world, still poor? Partly just through the natural turn of events. Africa has been ravaged by civil war, natural disasters and political chaos for many, many years. The parts of Africa that managed to avoid that aren't doing so badly really. They're pulling themselves up, slowly but surely.
Partly economic. Communism set much of the Eastern Bloc and former Soviet states back years.
And partly, because we're simply ahead. Education feeds back into itself. There's some truth in the idea that the west is rich because the rest of the world is oppressed, because we deliberately keep all the wealth to ourselves... but not as much as I think many people believe.
Of course, there are some who say that many of the economic woes we take for granted as just being a natural part of the system are in fact simply a by product of the monetary system in dominant usage. Google for Bernard Leitaer, mutual credit systems and demurrage for some fascinating insights into economics, and the idea that there is always enough work and enough money to go around, if only we used a different currency system.
If you take a step back... (Score:1, Insightful)
If all western companies start outsourcing enormous amounts of jobs to low-cost countries, the spending power of their market (the place where they are firing people as well as selling their goods) is greatly reduced.
So, yes, they all end up being more cost efficient, but because people have less money to spend they have to lower their prices on the home markets where they fired all their employees. Unless they start selling to the people in the low-cost countries, but then the wages there will have to go up again, which nullifies the cost-reduction benefit.
My point is: economic gains are not created out of thin air. It isn't as simple as everyone just moving things overseas and every company suddenly making triple profits. What goes in comes out and vice versa.
Now someone mentioned that the global economy is not a zero sum game. The great thing is, it is not: someone is actually benefitting from all this!
Not the companies or the fired employees, for them it's a status quo in the long run. The people who will reap the benefit of this are those in the low-cost countries who suddenly find their economy booming. Which in turn will mean their wage costs will go up as well, etc. etc.
Open markets have a tendency (especially for non-location tied goods) to drift towards a common, market efficient price-level, because inefficiencies cease to exist because of arbitrage. Consider this for a moment and then think about basic economical theories such as pareto efficiency and the resulting optimal wealth level.
These things are long-term benefits though, it's often hard to see past the perceived short term losses for the people who are on the receiving end of a cutback.
Re:News at 11 (Score:4, Insightful)
If too many US jobs go overseas, something similar might possibly happen. Economics "says" that if too few people can afford to buy your products, you may go out of business. If it happens to too many companies, the "economy" starts going downhill. Eventually, the accumulated capital in the US may be depleted and companies who moved jobs overseas will have no customers.
Re:News at 11 (Score:4, Insightful)
No. Here's how it breaks down: They aren't protected by labor laws and work twice as hard for a fraction of a fraction what I HAVE to get paid. We have minimum wage in this country to protect people from working for $1 a day, a majority of the countries being outsourced to don't.
"You are not obligated to live in the US. Companies are not obligated to hire US based employees. "
No, but I am obligated to pay an import tax on foreign products to protect the same companies that are shipping jobs offshore. If they can ship off jobs so cheap, I should be able to import goods/services just as cheap. Why is it that a coproration should enjoy protection that the people of the nation supporting it don't receive?
"If you don't like it, well, shut up because you can't change it. It's called economics, and even if you want something else to be true, it isn't going to happen."
That was a pretty stupid statement. Yes, we CAN do something about it. We can elect officials into office who support an export tax on offshore work. and It's not economics, it's politics. Why should they be able to sell my job to foreigners for cheap, when I can't buy their product from foreigners for cheap?
"Why do people continue to bitch about this? You are over-capitalized, and are obsolete. Find another profession."
Again.. stupid. So if Uganda starts instituting slavery, and forcing slaves to do tech support, all paid tech support around the world becomes over-capatalized and obsolete? Find another profession where?
Most of the jobs they're talking about... (Score:1, Insightful)
That doesn't make the article wrong or bad. But I can't see comparing a programmer fluent in UML and Java as related at all to somebody using photoshop and flash.
Yes, but who is "they?" (Score:3, Insightful)
But this was not an example of outsourcing. This was someone giving people in his former country a chance to succeed, and these people were not programmers of the level you'd expect to be graduating from a decent US university. These people were not given the tasks that those of us who were laid off were given; those tasks ended up being done by the founders, or no one at all.
This article is very cleverly written, and does a terrific job of trying to stir up trouble -- just look at the number of posts to this article!
Note that when comparing foreign wages to ours, the author of the article specifically chooses to mention -programmer- and -project manager- salaries.
Yet all of the "I.T." jobs that are being outsourced that the article mentions are for -call centers-. Tech support. The bottom of the barrel for I.T. The article also fails to disclose the sort of jobs the person it mentions was looking for and holding, and even then it has to give the disclaimer that her case is not normal!
I don't see demand in the United States for highly-skilled and trained Software Engineers diminishing. And the amount of code still needing to be written in the world is still growing much faster than the educated base of potential employees, as more and more things that were formerly done in hardware are moved to software, and more and more things are given interfaces that we can program new things for.
In short, no need to panic. This article is what used to be called "yellow journalism," trying to stir up discontent and political action where there is little evidence or story in fact.
Re:Estate of the Nation (Score:4, Insightful)
See, there's a choice 4. There are ways to bring the standard of living in other countries up toward what the US now enjoys, without getting the entire US to give up everything it has. Wealth doesn't have to be a zero-sum game (as the dread Mr. Limbaugh is fond of saying), although the rich are dead set on keeping it one.
The problem is, this would be terribly counterproductive from the point of view of US companies, because the people offshore would start demanding salaries that are closer to those of the American worker. Much better if we can bring the standard of living in America slowly DOWNWARD until it's closer to those offshore.
(Not that I'm saying that there's a conspiracy to do this or anything. Doesn't need to be... shipping every possible non-executive job offshore to places where workers are paid pennies on the dollar for a long period of time will do it just fine without anybody PLANNING anything.)
There is not only enough food in the world to feed every single living human being, but DRAMATICALLY MORE THAN NECESSARY. And yet people starve. Because if everyone in the world had enough to eat and a place to live, they'd start thinking in terms of other things they could do besides slave away for almost enough to keep from starving. We have the capacity and the money to make basic (flavorless, nasty, unappealing) food free for every person in the world. We will never do it, because we need slave labor.
-fred
Re:News at 11 (Score:2, Insightful)
second off companies that outsource to india or whereever do not get better production per employee. they hire two people for each one in the US. and save a little because for the 30k/year i make they make 12k/year. so wow they save 2k/year. and piss off all employees who *think* or *assume* their job is the next to be "relocated". (oh and in case you hadn't already guessed i happen to work for an outsourcing company who has offices in both india and the US). this whole cycle will not help americans it will help other counties and rich old white americans. this does not help our economy.
oh and another thing, the people in india that make 12k/year do not have anywhere near the quality of life we do. and they might not for another 10 - 20 years. (this comes from experience) they are essentially a third world country, bad water supply and famine in some parts of the country among other things. but of course you like so many other people in this damn thread think americans should "lower" our living standard and hence lower our cost of living. right, you move to some third world country.... see if you can dig up some bandwidth so you can post to slashdot, and complain of hunger.
and no i do not support "fat cat" living. the dot-bomb era was a frigging joke. no web designer should make over 35k. not a single one. but at the same time a guy who is a programmer (a good one.) shouldnt be making 25k when people who rely on his production make 5 - 10 times that. i have no issue outsourcing tech support and other low level jobs. but good jobs should stay here if the company wants to sell here. period.
Re:Estate of the Nation (Score:5, Insightful)
Really, folks, this is really the break some people need. Remember when IBM laid off those thousands of engineers in the 80s? Those engineers couldn't find work, but had lots of ideas, and went and started their own small tech firms which fueled the Silicon Valley upswing. (No, not the
Instead of blogging about not having a job, why not write something? Why not create something that you've always wanted to do but never had the time to do it (and now you're unemployed and you still don't have time?)? Don't just "learn" a new technology, CREATE the new technology. A recession/depression is simply an opportunity for many people and the seeds for success are being sown now.
TRANSLATION (Score:3, Insightful)
THIS IS CORPORATE ACCOUNTABILITY?
And just how do domestic makers expect US consumers to purchase domestic goods when they no longer have the disposable income because their jobs went overseas?
The US Corporations can STUFF IT.
Come on now! (Score:2, Insightful)
Hell, jobs have been leaving this country since I was a kid in the 60's. I remember Japanese crap was just that, crap and Chinese imports were limited to china (plates, cups) and bamboo/paper toys. It was novelty crap for kids to blow spare pennies on. Then the Japs got serious on cars and that's when it all started. Then Nixon f*cked us over by making nice with China and they began to gear up to flood us with more trash.
I remember in 1979 I had just moved out on my own and gotten a good paying job. I wanted to buy a TV but I was pissed because EVERYTHING said "Made in Chicago"
I shopped and shopped and I finally found a 25" Curtis Mathis console TV that said in BIG letters on the back, "Made in Texas" so I bought it! I was so happy to have found something made in Texas and NOT in Chicago that I had to have it. And I paid $1,200 in 1979 dollars for it, no remote control and with rotory knobs no less!
It's too late folks. This country is gone. We build NOTHING here anymore.
What do we produce? More consumers for cheaply made, imported CRAP!
i AM an "outside worker" (Score:5, Insightful)
i live in Sri Lanka and work for the webdev section of a british dotcom. at the moment the company has 20 webdev people in the UK and 4 in SL (the rest of the team are support staff and grafx ppls), but according to the ceo they are thinking of downgrading the entire uk structure and hiring more people here in SL.
my point is here... by UK standards they are paying us peanuts!! i get paid less than 7% of what the job i do would cost if it were being done by a brit. (trust me, i checked the numbers, a dev guy would get UKP2,000 there i get the equivalent of UKP150)
but this amount lets me make about 10x of minimum wage here which is a decent amount.
but there are downsides to this.
- MOST ASIANS ARE DRONES!!! if you want them to do a piece of work and keep doing it they are perfect. but our society and education system which puts more weight on conformity and herd-following (and no i DO NOT mean chasing a bunch of cows around 8-) ) means that if you want to do something innovative here you got to find those exceptional types who can think and improvise. and those ones are already in the US on their H1B
- most people in asia don't speak english all that well. this leads to confusion and problems in communications with the westerners
i was hired because i am one of those few nonconformists who decided to come back to my country (went to uni in OKC, USA, saw the dot bomb about to drop and buggered off, also my parents run a moderately successful company here), i can think on my feet and i am am bilingual (i speak both languages well enough to pass for a native, in fact when i was in the US i frequently was)..i see my friends trying to make a living in the US and i feel sorry for them (degree holding CS guys stacking shelves in wally world...) personally i would love to get them down here where the cost of living is low, and if you know how to manipulate the system (which, believe me i do) you can live and work. sure you'll miss your mega malls, and seeing the latest movies as they come out, no mtn dew, no game arcades and no DSL.. but we got great weather, cheap housing (by us standards anyway) and beaches...
personally i would LOVE to have a few slashdotters come join me here, and i am already running a dotcom that could use some help (so its not making money atm but i'm working on that part)
i guess the point i am trying to make is this. the US has been training its people for freedom and creativity, the east for drones. put the two together and you get a potent mix. we could use some creative thinkers here, you could do with some drones there.
anyone wanna come mix it up??
Suchetha
Re:Estate of the Nation (Score:3, Insightful)
You don't outsource that job, you replace it with a illegal immigrant mexican worker with below minimum pay, no health care, and no legal recourse if they get hurt on the job.
Re:Let me break it down for you (Score:1, Insightful)
There is a word for this. Its called "communism".
Trickle down economics are a load of bullshit
Here [cato.org] is a good read to debunk your argument against supply-side economics.
When the rich make money they invest it, rather than spending it. That's how they stay rich. When less affluent people make money, they spend it, because they have to do so in order to survive. They don't usually have investment portfolios.
First of all, the rich investing money does help the poor. When they invest money, interest rates drop, and the companies that employ the poor prosper with the infusion of cash. This means the poor are getting pay raises and can afford a house. Second, if the poor started following what the rich do, maybe they wouldn't be poor any more. This means the poor should have investment portfolios and should be investing instead of spending. In a free market, everybody has the chance.
the free market naturally supports the 'rich get richer' concept
The "rich get righer" concept is baloney. The correct way to phrase it is "the rich continue to do the things that made them rich, and the poor continue to do the things that made them poor". The free market supports anybody who goes out and does things to make them rich. Artificial controls are not the answer -- hard work and financial intellect are.
Re:News at 11 (Score:2, Insightful)
You are missing the point. There are millions of Americans who have excellent IT related skills. These folks have trained for many years and their work has contributed positively to the bottom lines of the companies they work for. From a global perspective, maybe exporting their jobs is good, but from an American perspective, it's not a good thing.
Most people I know don't dream of being rich. They dream of having a nice house, a sensible vehicle, and enough money to save up to send their kids to college. They're not trying to monopolize money that might be spent on Indian labor, they're just ordinary people that want to live ordinary lives.
With the way the global economy is moving, eventually all labor will be moved to countries that have the least amount of labor protection laws. Certainly, given 100 years or so those governments will change enough that nobody will have a competitive advantage, but as it stands average Americans are having to degrade their lives because the Multi-national corps want to add a few points to their profit margin.
Obviously China or India will rise to be the next world power, but Americans don't want to be shunted off to the side, destitute, getting by on Mac'n'Cheese and Top Ramen.
Re:News at 11 (Score:3, Insightful)
First off, I never said anything about programmers. All types of jobs are being shipped overseas, try to think outside yourself for a minute. But you are correct, no one pays programmers $1. The average salary of a programmer in China is 20,700 yuan, which is about $2500. That's a whopping $6.85 cents a day, which is %500 above the average household income.
" You get what you pay for, in case you failed to understand that concept."
What you pay for is relative, in case you failed to understand that concept. You know how much a legit copy of Windows XP goes for in China? The same in the US. The difference is it's not costing me my whole years salary. So does that make a copy of XP worth more in China than here? Will they get a better price/performance ratio using Windows over Linux? No. "You get what you pay for" is a cliche, not a fact of life. It's also an icredibly poor argument to back your position with, as it completely negates your assertion that foreign programmers produce the same quality of work for cheaper, because "You get what you pay for."
"People aren't going to ship jobs overseas if they get shit back. Garbage in, Garbage out."
Kathie Lee Gifford's line of clothing did phenomenal in terms of a return on investment. It's hard not to make money when your manufacturing costs are nil. I can't speak for the actual quality of the clothing, but the pricing was competitive, and sales did well.
That's ok though, because those little kids in the sweatshops weren't obligated to live in a third world nation, and that nation isn't obligated to see to the welfare of it's people. Hey, it's just the globalization of the economy. If your 9 year old can't pull the 12 hour days like little Hsu Chao over there, he should quit and find another profession. He's "obsolete" and "over-capatalized".
"It's not like we're outsourcing mundane jobs that don't require intelligence or education."
Mundane isn't indicative of a job that doesn't require intelligence or education. Programming is mundane. Aside from that, yes, we are indeed outsourcing jobs that require no education and very little intelligence. Entry-level tech support for Dell requires no experience, training is provided, and requires very little intelligence. While this article focused mainly on the IT sector, it's notable that jobs are being outsourced overseas in almost every industry.
You are correct in that we aren't shipping management jobs out, only the jobs of the people who know how to do the real work.
"Why are you obligated to buy those goods?"
This doesn't make sense. Why am I obligated to buy penecillin to treat pneumonia? Why am I obligated to buy my child food and diapers?
"You know, there is an entire collection of (misguided) people who will only buy American made goods."
I doubt anyone but perhaps the amish can buy "only American". My computer was "made in USA" with foreign parts. Given an option, however, it makes sense to buy American if the quality and price are equivalent.
"For more information, why do you think that the US is the only nation that is supporting that company? "
Because they are operating within the United States, which is the most lucrative market in the world. It is also a country "owned" by the people, not by the corporations and not by the government. Your argument that the US makes up for a small percentage of consumers is irrelevant and overly vague. People naturally "consume", so consumer percentage can be interpreted directly as population percentage. The US is, however, the best consumer source. We will pay more for products or services than people in most other developed countries, because we make more. If the US people stop buying goods at the prices they can afford now, the world suffers. Why bother selling a t-shirt for $1 to 50 chinese people when you can sell a t-shirt to 1 american for $50?
"You can go ahead an elect officials to make it too expe
Re:We Do that (Score:1, Insightful)