Giant Sucking Noise 1319
bsharma writes "The next round of globalization is sending upscale jobs offshore. They include basic research, chip design, engineering--even financial analysis. Can America lose these jobs and still prosper? Who wins? Who loses?" News.com has a related story about outsourcing.
This scares the s*** out of me... (Score:5, Interesting)
As you might expect, this worries me a lot. I'm fairly secure (I think), because they need at least one person here that knows English and Java and can understand the customers and do the face-to-face, but in the long run more and more places are going to look at the savings and ship the work overseas.
I've got two kids, 9 and 12, and I'm at a loss for what direction to steer them in career-wise. I used to think Engineering was the answer, since I've really enjoyed my, what, 20-odd years of slinging code. But by the time my kids are college-age, god knows what will be left in the US besides burger flippers, doctors, and lawyers.
-- ac at work
Re: Outsource Australia (Score:5, Interesting)
Is this somewhat painful? Yes. Does it help in the long term? Most definitely.
Do you really think that the mid east would be in the situation it is today if there was a wide diverse economy over there?
Technology Sweatshops (Score:2, Interesting)
How's it feel to be a middle man? (Score:5, Interesting)
Blockquoth the poster:
America makes its money by being at the ultimate junction point of capital, intellectual property, communications, and business management. We're the deal-makers and the facilitators. We don't build anything ourselves because we're content to skim a little bit off the top of everything that passes through our hands.
However, sooner or later, all those other countries to which we've outsourced our industrial base will realise that they really don't need us. When they get their acts together, they'll just start dealing directly with each other. And when that happens, watch this Pax Americana come to a screeching halt.
I predict it will happen within the next 50 years, if all things continue as they are now...
The predicted chain of events according to me (Score:3, Interesting)
2) People who are out of work cannot buy things made by corps who are farming out their labor to other countries. Companies see a mysterious downturn in profit and are unable to attribute it to the fact that people don't make any money and accordingly can't pay for things they are making money by farming out labor to fourth world countries, whose major export is dirt. Corps who are farming out their labor fold like sheets at a Motel 6 or move to country where their production facilities are. Now more people are out of work locally.
3) No profit! No company!
4) Repeat ad nauseam
Why do you think we are in the world of hurt we're in today? It's called Lowest Bidder. If you as Foocorp can save a buck manufacturing widgets, you'll save that buck because it means more money in your pocket. The downside is that in saving that buck you're going to put yourself out of business.
Wait about ten years. The results will be one of two things: depression to rival 1929 or bounceback as a result of these companies fscking over the US economy. Forget your interest rates, they mean nothing - the lowest bidder is causing our downturn.
START voting for higher taxes. (Score:2, Interesting)
Good to see... (Score:5, Interesting)
Hmmm... yah. Can't be. Those inumerable people against globalisation must all be out of their minds.
Re:we're screwed (Score:1, Interesting)
- Heavy Manufacturing is no longer done here.
American made cars are doing just fine. There is also a host of larger equipment still made in this country.
- Hi Tech Manufacturing is long gone.
Intel, AMD, IBM fab plants?
- Material processing is not done here.
3M
- Software design is on it's way out
Microsoft?
- General Services are on their way out
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by 'General Services' but there are more services in this country than anything else
- Research is parting ways with use too.
I assume all the universities in this country are closing then?
I'm not surprised you were modded up by the moderators here - anyone bitching about the United States is sure to be modded up on SlashBot.
Re:Circling the wagons won't work. (Score:2, Interesting)
It's hard to provide more value than the competition when the competition is getting $10K/year rather than $50K. *Nobody* is better than 5 FTE...
Re:So stop voting for higher taxes. (Score:0, Interesting)
They're not higher. Companies pay less taxes now than they paid back in the 50s.
Re:So stop voting for higher taxes. (Score:1, Interesting)
Moderators, jack that up +5 funny!
It sounds like your job can't be oursourced (Score:5, Interesting)
Wait, let me get this straight. I'm assuming that your four-man operation replaces a three-or-four man operation in the U.S. Let's say salary costs are $50,000 per U.S. programmer, $15,000 per Indian programmer. A four-man U.S. team is $200,000 a year, while a one US, three Indian team is $95,000, for a savings of 48%.
Great! Your company now has an extra $105K to spend! Either you get a raise (not likely), or another team can be created, employing 8 programmers where four were employed before (and allowing your company to do more work). Of course, the real ratio is a little higher - you need slightly more support staff (management, office workers, etc) to support twice as many workers, on both sides of the ocean, so it's possible your company could jump from 4 workers to 10, for the same amount of money. Seems like a net good to me.
Further, the U.S. is the top market for high technology products, because we have the extra cash to spend on them. Increased employment in other countries raises their GDP, which means they can better afford high-end toys, which means they get cheaper and better for us, etc. etc.
Take a look at the numbers - globalization has been in full swing for a few decades now, and the U.S. has the lowest unemployment rate in years - lower than they thought possible a decade ago! Almost everyone wins when the people that can make a product the cheapest are allowed to do it. The only ones who lose, in the short run, are those who are displaced by the production move. The remedy for that is short-term government support, and the best way to get out is to acquire new skills.
Tell your children to become engineers. The problem-solving skills you learn will help them easily jump from career to career, as needed. Encourage them to take some liberal arts classes, too, to make them think more flexibly and excercise that right brain a little. May I suggest an economics class?
It is scary... (Score:3, Interesting)
The forces driving fundamental change are several, including regional cost differentials, market power relations, and globalization of IT industry. Most importantly, however, the U.S. IT industry has become an amazingly capital-intensive economic sector that no longer has access to capital. The floodgates have been opened. I doubt they can be closed.
This is nothing new, this happened to blue-collar workers years ago, and now it is moving up the chain.
The only way I can see to compete is thru advancing the technology in the field you are in, and keeping those technological advancements as industry secrets. You will have to create BETTER products in LESS time if you want to compete with people who can be paid tremendously less than yourself. Sending work overseas has an inherent cost, and language barriers, and assorted other problems, but unless you can create something significantly better, you are going to watch the jobs go away.
I am not claiming I have any solutions, just agreeing that it is a scary fact. I think if it becomes a huge issue, you will see the middle class rise up in anger and fight it tooth and nail.
My name is Robert, and I am a software developer.
Re:the US is driving people away (Score:1, Interesting)
Optimists vs. Pessimists (Score:3, Interesting)
The main problem in the world right now is unequality from place to place. Consider thermodynamics...where does the heat go? In chemistry, where does the higher concentration go? I know it sucks right now, but we really have to hope for the long term (as long as Gulf War II doesn't screw everything up). Once the Earth reaches equilibrium, then all we'll have to worry about is the cheap jobs going to Khronos or something (the real optimists hold out for universe-wide equilibrium).
Re:So stop voting for higher taxes. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Cycles (Score:3, Interesting)
But consumers get a direct vote on every market issue every day. Every time you spend a dollar, you are casting a vote on what products and services you like. Consumers seem to like low prices. I think that want you want is an ANTI-consumer union. Don't expect many consumers to _vote_ in favor of this.
Economics is not a zero-sum game.
Re:Uh... (Score:5, Interesting)
On the other hand, as long as I can make a living, I'm not going to begrudge someone in India, Russia, or other place their ability to make a living. What I object to is when the savings from outsourcing do more than keep a corporation afloat, but actually continue paying obscene salaries for CEOs. Perhaps we need to outsource board-level jobs to India and Singapore and Bulgaria. It's only fair. Don't you think?
Re:There is a world outside of the United States (Score:4, Interesting)
First, "outsourcing to Asia" is not a long-term problem. It is a short term "fad" during a tough economy. Outsourcing parts of a project to Asia are destined to failure unless the project is completely self-contained and very well spec'd. Every "outsourcing to India" project that I've had the misfortune to hear about from colleagues have been massive failure. There was communications problems due to their day being our night. There was budget problems, where they kept promising a delivery date and budget and when that day came or when the money was spent they'd ask for more time and money. Products delivered were not what the American company had in mind. In one case, I know of a Mexican company that outsourced to India! The Indians didn't speak Spanish, the Mexicans didn't speak Indian (or whatever they speak there), so they communicated in English. Or tried. Imagine the difficulty trying to convey Mexican tax laws to an Indian on the otherside of the world in a language that isn't native to either end.
Suffice it to say, Asian OUTSOURCING is a bubble, too. It'll be the "in thing to do" until enough people know first or second-hand of the problems involved, or until the economy picks up.
Even if they get their quality/communications problems resolved, remember that as their work gets better and/or the practice becomes more popular, the price of outsourcing to India will rise. But at some point, the higher price in India will reduce the incentive to outsource to them in the first place--and that point is still much below American wages. Many companies don't even bother outsourcing to Mexico anymore because their wages are now 1/4th to 1/3rd that of American wages [tallking about educated IT professionals, not people who build wickets just south of the border]--and Mexico is right across the river from the U.S.!
That said, I believe in 100% free trade and I'm completely in favor of any company working wherever it can find the best deal. There will be winners and losers in every country but I'm not concerned about that. Anyone that is willing to work to make themselves useful will have no problem finding and keeping a job.
Re:You're right, I don't see it. (Score:4, Interesting)
American companies don't need high-cost burger-flippers with a PC, they need effective, efficient IT professionals that can justify their salary with corresponding efficiency
Simon
what gets bought and sold (Score:4, Interesting)
After (china primarily) have their full vertically integrated industries setup,(close now) they not only won't need to buy our stuff, there's no way any of our stuff would be cheap enough for them to bother with, because they will have a large enough internal market. all they will need to trade with then is for oil and other raw materials. And this goes from agricultural products all the way to high tech and everything in between, they won't need us, not a nickles worth. They will continue to export as much as possible, but only to places that have actual hard currency of value or have the materials they need. Our dollar is dropping in relative value. although till used widely, it is and will continue to be devalued, especially if gold backed currencies become required for international balance of trade payments. The current balance of trade numbers prove this with no shadow of a doubt. Other numbers I have seen have china as potentially surpassing the US around 2015 or so, although I personally believed that mass global warfare will occur before that time, basically over resources and who controls the planet. In fact I would maintain world war 3 is already in progress.
The US is living on credit and inertia and a severe case of the denials right now, we are en-screwed. As will be pointed out around the thread, people take a cavalier attitude and say theoretically it's a 'good thing" - until they lose their jobs and start the cycle that millions are on now, lose job, hunt for job, get job paying less, lather rinse repeat until you hit a brick wall with NO job.
The job loss stats are SO bad, they stopped reporting them, claiming they ran out of funding, which is a political dodge. this was a major story that didn't get much coverage, but is important for everyone to take a look at.
url to my last statement
http://www.bls.gov/bls/mlsdiscontinued.htm
text, short and to the point and anyone should be able to read between the lines here
What is the status of the Mass Layoff Statistics (MLS) program?
The Mass Layoff Statistics (MLS) program has been discontinued. Since 1994, the Department of Labor's Employment and Training Administration funded the MLS program. That funding ended on December 31, 2002. The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) has been unable to acquire funding from any alternative sources and had to discontinue the MLS program as of that date. Limited historical data and documentation will continue to be available on the BLS Internet, at http://www.bls.gov/mls/.
Last Modified Date: January 2, 2003
Jobs in the US are NOT being replaced by the numbers, nor are wages going up, speaking in general terms, we are dropping, and fast. It's being manipulated to appear like theyare going up slightly, and even that is a scam, theypulled food and fuel from the consumer price index for example. They are lying, avoiding real numbers, basically pulling an enron accounting modal on an across the board obfuscation to this system to not panic the herd. They are doing the same things with the major market indices, in particular they remove tanked corps as fast as possible to keep those numbers artificially inflated. If you were to do (now timeframe) an historical records match, and keep the tanked companies over the past few year period and reconfigure the indices those charts would look a lot worse than they are now.
IMO
This is an extremely involved subject but the gestalt is we got shafted by literal traitors. Internationalists who are loyal to no one beyond their own power and greed and to whichever global cartel constitutes their gang. This was done on purpose to further a heinous (ultimate) agenda of a global two class fascist society, which I term technofeudalism. It is akin to wolfpacks fighting themselves, but all united in staying wolves over the herds.
I had these same arguments on forums years ago, I was saying the same thing then as I am now. I have personally since heard from people who vigorously disagreed with me then, conveniently when they were sitting fatcity on their dotbomb poker chip improbable beyond belief stock portfolios and a great paycheck. Now, a lot of them have changed their viewpoints 180 degrees, because they got bit, and bit hard. their stock profits turned out to be mostly vaporware and so were their jobs, and not even new jobs then, old jobs they had. Industry after industry has been destroyed or reduced to ridiculous levels. And not buggywheips, critical strategic infrastructure.
That is almost the only way for some people to get from casual ho hum academic styled discussion to back down on the ground in the real world, to just have it shoved in their face up close and personal. THEN they understand better the full ramifications of what's going on..
Welcome to the club... (Score:5, Interesting)
Frankly, I have been expecting this for about a year or two: if you can/could telecommute, what prevented your employer to outsource your job?
The developed countries have been outsourcing blue-collar jobs to developing (really low-wage) countries, thanks to the development of international transportation for moving the goods all over the world. Those jobs go now wherever the workforce is the cheapest
Every single part of computer hardware you have in front of you, has been made in Anywhere But US/Europe/Japan(TM). I hope you enjoyed playing/working with your computer, because karma is a b*tch.
Today, the internet allows the transportation of knowledge, voice and data all around the world. Of course, your job will go elsewhere.
Heck, if you think about it, you can see that no one is really safe from this:
- lawyers (you just need some meat in the court house, everything else, including C&D
:), is outsourcable paperwork)
- doctors (the remote chirurgy we dreamed about with Internet2)
- teachers (online schooling anyone?)
- people in the movie/entertainment industry: Bollywood [rediff.com] could cripple Hollywood (Selling low-priced non-crippled CD and non-DRM DVD should be straigthforward for the Indian majors)
Here is some food for thought:My predictions are:
So, what does it mean for me?
Mr. Bush, Chairman Mao Called (Score:5, Interesting)
Chairmain Mao will explain that Chinese Corporations are the subcontactors to the subcontractors to the subcontractors of the Department of Defense Subcontractors and furthermore; China now makes ALL the key components for ALL of America's military weapons and machines.
Then he will let out an evil sounding Chineese Laugh! (The kind you hear in James Bond movies.)
How can the US maintain it's power if all it's strategic manufacturing capability is located offshore? Recently, we nearly lost the US Steel Industry and it's not over yet.
Sure we have rules and laws which on paper prevent this sort of problem, however as the FDA recently found out in the "Tainted Strawberry Harvest" [fda.gov], these rules are not always followed. In this specific case the FDA had rules that all food used in school lunch programs must be grown in the United States. The subcontractors decided to ignore the rule and subcontract from Mexico and imported 1.7 million pounds of Hepatitis laced frozen Strawberries. The good news is that the fraudulent company was the lowest bidder and we saved tax dollars.
I won't even comment on the strategic technology which has been leaked [thenewamerican.com] to other countries by defense subcontractors.
Greed will destroy us!
Re:Uh... (Score:2, Interesting)
Not very good if you like tech and want to live in a nice place.
Re:Ramblings on overpriced labor & ecology (Score:3, Interesting)
This is how much a programmer costs in India. Its not that they are willing to work for cheaper. Its more like 7/hr in India is alot more then here. Infact 7/hr can not even meet ends meets here in the US. These corporations know this so they are just outplacing instead of hiring Americans for reduced costs.
Infact I myself would be willing to work for 11/hr developing websites or working with c++ or java. No joke! Many of you would gawk at this but I am desperate right now.
When selling foreign items in the US or Europe, a protective tarrif is placed. This tarrif is used to protect the Country's interests and products so they can compete on the market. The same should apply to labor. If a thailand shoe maker for example company could sell a pair of sneakers for $1.20 here in America, I think Nike and Reebox would have a fit. Why can't we?
Re:Cycles (Score:3, Interesting)
That may be true, but it's as often as not not their choices that make the difference. You may, in the words of Henley, be the captain of your soul, but that's about it. Circumstance is an uncanny beast, and by far the best predictor of socioeconomic success is the socioeconomic success of ones parents.
At what point did you make the choice to better yourself? Abraham Lincoln learned law in his spare time in order to better himself, and that was a choice.
The problem is: on top of the fact that material or financial assets are subject to all kinds of quirks of fate, and some starting stakes are much more favorable than others, any individual's skills/labor -- the only thing you can exchange once your assets are depleted -- can fall below a magic point where they're so ill-valued that said individual is required to sell all their available time to meet minimum obligations for staying alive. Once you pass this point, it's nigh unto impossible to change things. The only way to do it is to find a way to get your support for free while you put time into improving skills. The list of ways of doing this is pretty short: generosity of others, generosity of society, crime, and the armed forces. The later two risk your life and freedom. The former two aren't guaranteed to produce anything, especially if attitudes like yours become pervasive.
And this state can easily come about because of changes in a society which alter demand for skillsets in a way no one might have forseen. I'm a decent programmer with better mathematics and design skills than most, eight years of experience, and a college degree. Finding a software job has been pretty difficult over the last 8 months. I'm fortunate that I've had generous family members to cusion the fall, unemployment to boot, and have skills I can try to fall back on, but the fact is, eight years ago when I made the choice to pursue this, nobody was predicting a dip in demand or glut in the labor market for programmers.
I will admit that there is a miniscule number of people that have just been dealt a really really crappy hand in life, but there is absolutely nothing in this country stopping a person from not being poor.
A larger number than you think. Go read the census data from 2001. 10% of adult men were earning less than $2500. 20% under $10,000. This is choice-between-food-and-health-care conditions, if you're single. If you have a family, I don't know how it works at all.
The good news is that mobility is higher here than many places in the world, and I recognize that personal pluck and responsibility plays a huge role in that mobility. Self-determination is as (or more) possible in American society than it is anywhere else. But the fact remains that your starting stake, sheer fortune (or misfortune), and other things beyond most people's foresight also play big roles, and nobody should be quick to judge anyone lazy because simply because they're down.
Re:Uh... (Score:2, Interesting)
When US corps gets products manufactured for less more people gain access to inexpensive goods. Because companies will be able to drop their prices (and yes they will drop their prices so they can sell more). As corporate profits increase, that increases the amount of money available for investment and banks will have more capital to hand out loans to people. This in turn will boost the economy even more. Also the stock market will rebound and more people will invest. As long as there are people willing to work, resources can be harnessed, it's a law of nature. Governments prevent resources/energy from being harnessed by passing stupid laws. There is a market for everything if it's cheapo enough. Wouldn't you build a mansion if it only cost a thousand bucks for all the cement, wood and building materials? There is unemployment today
Throughout history people have been against free trade and immigration, only to be proven consistently wrong. This is because people lack a basic understanding of reality.
Read "wealth of nations" by adam smith for some more info.
Re:Heh -I posted about this a while ago (Score:3, Interesting)
And when, pray tell, will that be? Hoping that the global utopia will come about anytime soon?
You miss the point. The US is treating the world as its own private sweatshop. Look at the labels on the stuff you own sometime. Unless you're from Milwalkee, chances are you have a bunch of 'Made in ROC, Taiwan, Japan, India, Mexico, the Phillipines' ect. The only thing that no other county can make is American culture, and that makes more money for the people who market it than most anything else. Why do you think the **AAs go apeshit every time they see a CD-Burner or cable modem? It's the one thing that could hurt their bottom line - takes them right out of the ol' picture.
Name something that is made in the US that can't be made somewhere else and I'll give you a lolly. Example: I was at the bastion of US consumerism, "WALMART" and saw US Flag magnets, bumper stickers and plastic car window flags. Printed in small, but obvious letters was, "Made in China". Put that in your back pocket. Patriotism from three feet away.
I'm all for jobs coming back to America - I'm just thinking short term, you know? Before the earth falls into the sun. ;)
Anonymous Reply (My company is mentioned.) (Score:1, Interesting)
I work at a US based company that a regular company would outsource IT work to.
Right now, the company is in the middle of herding all the cattle into a single pen. What do I mean?
Before, all the different employees were split into small groups -- regionally, or by customer, or some other means. Now, everyone is being split into a small number of groups which are defined only by the primary skillset.
Example: You're not in the Oracle team for the ABC Manufacturer account. You're now on the US Oracle Team. Instead of having 5 coworkers who know Oracle (and some SAs, and some middleware, and so on), you've got 250 coworkers who know Oracle.
And they tell them that, "Once you document what you do, you are free to work on other stuff here and there." It is a wonderful statement that some of the cattle actually love. "Show us how to let someone else do what you do, and we'll let you do what someone else does!" (Anyone see some funny logic there?)
At the same time, they're working to create new procedures and new policies so where everyone does everything in the same way. Insert your favorite early 2000 buzzword or fad for this. Be it a internationally recognized standard. Or a clever piece of software that will allow one person to do the work of five men. "Document your work! Show us how we can make other people do it just as well!"
So much of this is laugable in many ways. I'm getting a kick out of the software that is supposed to augment the ability of one employee to do the work that five used to do. The catch? They've got to hardwire in an impossible level of detail into the system. Oh, and their clients are going to have to use it, too, if they're going to get the full value out of it. (They haven't quite gotten to figuring that part out yet. They will. It is a hoot.)
So, if you ask lower management, "This is going to be complete hell for the first year, trying to merge everyone together?", they'll quietly, but unequivocally say yes.
You see, before they can export the jobs, first, they have to get everyone on the same page. So, say you have 250 Oracle DBAs spread though various accounts in the US. Now, you've put them into one big group. But, they've still got to serve totally different customers with completely different ways of doing things. So now you've got to attempt to create new standards all around that'll work with different accounts with utterly conflicting ways of doing business.
Oh. And you've got to keep things focused on the customer. Nevermind, of course, that those 5 Oracle DBAs are no longer focused on the world of ABC Manufacturer. Nevermind that you, as the leader of the Oracle group, are not focused on the customer anymore (Which customer, anyhow? There are hundreds of them!).
Oh? And remember those employees who you are trying to corral? Well, as soon as they get a strong smell of the upcoming slaughterhouse, you better hope the economy doesn't turn around. Or all your business knowledge will be running out the door. Then who will you have to populate your database with the Oracle Procedures for System #12's second database, System #13, System #14, System #15, System #16, System #17
Oh! Don't worry! We'll have client executives to manage the relationship to make sure that we're focused on the customer. Uh-huh. Basically, once the increasing number of screwups are escalated, they'll be given attention. Sounds marvelous.
So you get the drift of where this is going. And we haven't even gotten to the part where we start the outsourcing to India. That's the second year. And you can imagine "how much better" they will be at coping with this insane new model of customer service.
I have faith in my company's CEO. Complete faith that he knows that the best way to run the company is to eat away the core of the company. To succeed in this new century, we must drive away from our old core competencies which distinguished us, and embrace providing commodity style service.
After all. The customer wants the best price. Really. And so this is our new business model.
Re:Ramblings on overpriced labor & ecology (Score:3, Interesting)
One of the reasons that downtowns have been in bad shape in many places, and why so much light industry and office space has moved to the suburbs, is because downtowns are silly in a world where it's not hard to deal with people more than half a mile from you. That changed a while ago, with cars and phones and fax machines, and the expensive density and concentrated demand of downtowns was no longer warranted. Successful downtown areas exist now based largely on prestige and legacy infrastructure, not function.
But obviously that's not why people can live on so little in India. Sure, the real estate is cheaper, and it follows rent is cheaper too, but that's not enough to make the difference. You can find cheap land in the US too, but Gary Indiana hasn't become a high-tech mecca as a result.
Something they do have in India is lots of people that work for much less than $7/hr, and that saving is passed on to everyone else (with the expense of great poverty). We have some of that dynamic, but not to the degree of India.
But I think people don't realize what prices are really like in other countries. I've never been to India, so I don't know quite what it's like there, but from what I've seen in Latin America it's not what people think. I doubt it would be that much cheaper to live in India if you were living by American standards. After all, a lot of the products are global products -- electronics, clothing, etc. -- and you might save some of the retail markup but nothing else. Simple food tends to be cheaper, but packaged food like so many of us are used to isn't that much cheaper. You basically save on outrageous markups (eyeglasses sure are cheap!) and labor (which admittedly is significant -- but you have to get used to being surrounded by abject poverty).
I think a big part of the difference is that the Indian standard of living isn't like the American standard. You don't expect the same things. I know in Latin America it seems quite unusual to move away from your parents until you are married or at least in your mid-20s. And the dynamic is totally different than here as well -- living with your parents doesn't mean you're a slacker. There's lots of other things they go without. You don't have a yard. You don't have a lot of personal space or privacy, you might share a room with a sibling well into adulthood. You don't eat frozen food for every meal, you don't wash your body in water you could drink, you can't put your toilet paper in the toilet, etc.
And you're right, you can live on very little here in the US. I know people who live happily on next to nothing except the modest kindness of others and the excess of our society. I've lived on income equivalent to $7/hr (though my hourly rate was much more), because I decided working less would make me happier than having more money. If more people in the US had the values and the skills to live thrifty lives -- no, not thrifty, simply economically sane -- it would benefit not just our society (if not our economy), but would have a tremendous effect on the entire world.
But of course none of this is fair when desperation is part of the equation. It's not fair if they are working for so little because they would go hungry if they did not. That's when the free market just becomes a cover for the machinations and conspiracies of the capitalists -- labor markets have been manipulated far longer than energy markets or operating systems. Laborers can only be real participants in the free market when their needs -- if only their perceived needs -- are significantly exceded by their earning potential. Otherwise we are inevitably slaves to capital. Anti-consumerism is a revolutionary concept in a nation like ours.
Re:Uh... (Score:3, Interesting)
I think what the conservatives are missing here is that this is not reversable. Once companies move into full swing off shore, they will become more efficient and better at it, only making the likely small increase in Indian wages still far outweigh the cost of hiring American IT staff.
We are in a recession, yes, but it came out of the commidization of the entire Tech industry caused by the deregulation of the 90s. Things were revved up too fast and weren't given time to mature. Microsoft owned the market in a blink of an eye (only over 2 or 3 years honestly).
Another point I want to add is that, when you conservatives bitch that us IT guys are overpriced and need to be commiditized just the like the rest of the American job market, you are missing key points here. Our doctors and lawyers and politicians, our Professors and small business owners, IT folks are all in teh same level of income bracket. Yet, we LOVE our jobs. IT life would make any normal person bored to tears, but to us techies, we get off to it every night, it's in our blood!!
When a corporation goes outsourcing, it does a number of things... it
#1) hurts the moral of programmers here (even if they still have a job), because it makes them feel replacable even though they really aren't since usually programmers are the only ones able to read their own code.
#2) it commiditizes the industry to the point that going through the 5 years of college to prove yourself won't be worth it. Who wants to take Calc 3 and Differential Equations to make $15 an hour when you could go into construction with just basic geometry for $25/hour.
#3) The Tech industry moves too fucking fast, new technologies are coming out all the time. If you are too busy waiting tables and taking care of the kids, how are you going to know what's going on? That's a waste of pure intelligence if you ask me. Here someone who was probably ahead of the game is now playing catch up and who knows where that will go.
#4) Us techies, we tend to support our own kind. If we don't have the money to buy all the cool programming tools and gadgets to explore them, then they will go out of business. Indians certainly can't afford american goods.
#5) Governmental Tech jobs will then saturate, since that will always be gaurenteed to remain here.
If anything, enforcing that the IT jobs stay here is about keeping the love for the job alive. Most IT folk are sallary anyway and yet they continually work overtime and will get up at 5 AM to meet deadlines. This isn't your typical worker and he or she's not complaining.
Now I don't want to offend any other countries as I write this, only know that I hope your IT industry keeps it strong in your country as well.
I have team members in India (Score:1, Interesting)
Maybe I'm in a unique situation, but I find it extremely frustrating to have to do double work to fix the work that they are doing over there.
Hold your doomsaying Chicken Little! (Score:2, Interesting)
Hold your doom saying Chicken Little!
Anyone with anything longer than the media's memory will remember the same type of things being said about electronics, automobiles, manufacturing, etc.
Fundamentally, the key driver of American economic greatness lies in a cultural, educational, and economic environment that offers unmatched support for innovation and entrepreneurship. India and China may both have large, cheap, and now, in some ways, well educated work forces, but can they match the Americans for the ability to innovate?
Now, notice that I said ability, as I'm sure than any Indian or Chinese guy has just as much capacity to innovate as any Joe, Jose, Abu or Jing American. However, behind every Hewlett or Moore stands a team of multitalented and innovative workers, a well informed and wealthy capital market, a government that balances freedom with encouragement and regulation, a base of wealthy consumers ready to spend money on new things, and networks of individuals that provide knowledge and access to all of the preceding. Getting all that requires a pervasive culture of freedom in thought and expression, tolerance for different cultures, ethnicities and viewpoints, research institutions that are capable of excellence in multiple discipline simultaneously, well connected financial and legal networks that serve investors and innovators, institutions, regulations and laws that have been refined over decades of experience. You won't find this in India and China, even with the free flow of expertise and experts in the modern global marketplace, it will still take decades for either to build anything resembling what we have in America today. Historically, by the time that nations arrive at that level of development (read Europe and Japan), wages would have become on par with those here in America.
So, how should we regard the obviously painful current state of the IT industry? Once again, we can turn to history. In the past, during each round of economic expansion, new ideas, new services, leading edge products, et cetera, inject wealth and jobs into the American economy. On subsequent rounds of contraction and adjustment, more mature industries begin shifting their work to cheaper overseas sites as companies become more efficient, domestic labor markets become more favorable to employers, and financing and infrastructure becomes cheaper, setting the stage for the next round of expansion. Usually, during these transition periods, a great number of domestic employees in mature industries loose their jobs. Almost all of these people eventually get jobs either by joining more competitive outfits, applying their existing skills to up and coming industries, or switching professions after a period of re-education. Overall, after each round of expansion and contraction, the economy achieves net growth.
Now, there are caveats to this generalization.
A. Markets are not perfect, and the market, as we have seen, can be rife with fraud, monopoly, faulty loans, ignorant or stupid investors, etc.
B. Social pressures during the transition can cause unrest or the enactment of unwise policies.
C. The human productive lifespan is finite. Since modern industries often require professionals who have spent much of their lives in school, when industries mature, many of those professionals may find themselves unable to recover from the huge amount of lost time and capital investment that they spent educating themselves for a profession that no longer requires them.
Perhaps point C is most poignant with the Slashdot crowd, and it represents a real and worrying trend that is likely to exacerbate due to the increasingly complex and specialized nature of modern technical fields. Historically, the services sector (sales, real-estate, support, education, etc.) has provided a safety valve for displaced technical professionals. Often, people would spend a decade and a half working in industry, be laid off, and spend the rest of their lives selling houses or teaching. However, now a days people who want to work in technology have to spend so much time educating themselves that they may never be able to recoup their investments. Over the long term, this may undermine America's lead in technological innovation and entrepreneurship by discouraging future generations from pursuing careers in science and engineering, but I think steps can be undertaken to avoid this.
1. At the undergraduate level, universities should concentrate on teaching widely applicable mathematical and scientific problem solving skills instead of merely instilling knowledge related to set major. This is already taking place at many of the best universities but need to happen on a wider scale in more campuses.
2. Science and engineering education should become more multi-disciplinary and research driven to prepare the next generation of innovators for the convergence of chemistry, biology, physics, mathematics, and computation (think nanotech, bioinformatics, designer pharmaceuticals, engineered chemicals) that are beginning to take place today and will likely drive the economy of the next century.
3. Enact regulation to protect pensions so that future generations will not have to face the prospect of having worked 80 hours weeks for a decade only to end up with a pile of worthless stock options.
Also, as the recent spate of corporate failures have shown, there are still significant market failures that need to be addressed.
4. We need to better regulate the accounting and investment industries and reform corporate laws to allow more transparent and reliable accounting.
5. We need to better educate investors about the source of value and the basic economics of the stock market.
6. We need more independent, better staffed, and more skilled regulatory agencies.
7. We need to acknowledge the need that there are key basic industries that are essential to national security. When necessary, we need to protect these industries, to a degree, against market trends.
Re:we're screwed (Score:2, Interesting)
When the guy that flips your burger makes $1 an hour you can afford to sell that burger for a much lower rate then if you have to pay that guy $7 an hour for the same flipping. Now, since I have to pay for a more expensive burger I need a raise to keep my standard of living equal to what it was before you gave him his raise. Then my bosses have to raise their prices to pay my new higher wages, in turn then their customers have to raise their prices and pretty soon we're back to your burger flipper needing another raise.
It WAS a dumb idea, it IS a dumb idea.
All raising minimum wage does is raise prices and give democrats a sound bite.
"Hey, I vote democratic, they just gave me a $0.35/hr raise, they care about me!....Shit, the price of bread just went up, I need another raise..."
Dan