Microsoft Loses Showdown in Houston 540
An anonymous reader writes "It seems the city of Houston has decided against using Microsoft software. It really is amazing how much it costs to use (and maintain) software. I can't help but wonder if this will become a trend." Turns out they decided on the relativly unknown SimDesk suite, which has nothing to do with The Sims, sadly. Many, many posts about this. In additional news seldo writes "There's an interesting interview on News.Com with Peter Houston. He discusses Microsoft's changing attitude in competing with Linux -- no longer calling it a "cancer" but instead promoting the advantages of Windows."
Funny enough, this will be good for MS users too. (Score:4, Insightful)
This means that, for the foreseeable future, MS users will be getting a product that will be the result of a pricewar with Free software, will have features that compete with OSS features, and will have a level of quality that attempts to approach OSS quality.
I don't think that Microsoft will belly up any time soon, regardless of how wonderful that would be. I do see Windows getting very good in the near future since quality and ease of use are the only ways it has left to compete with Linux.
Houston, we have a problem... (Score:5, Insightful)
Server-Based Software (Score:5, Insightful)
largoriffic (Score:5, Insightful)
Any reduction in the MS-monopoly is good for alternatives, but this isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of free software.
quote Mahatma Gandhi (Score:2, Insightful)
3) then you win.
Recession and Open-Source (Score:5, Insightful)
Sim - Houston - I wonder why (Score:2, Insightful)
Since everything in Texas is controlled by good ol boys, I'm sure the decision to use this software was anything but objective.
Re:Funny enough, this will be good for MS users to (Score:5, Insightful)
Have a look at simdesk.com - it's covered in words like "proprietary" and "patented". Houston's decision is neither particularly good nor bad for OSS.
Re:I must say... (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't think the 4th largest city in the US represents a good business oppportunity to start offering support?
If the money is there, the support will come - or rather if the need is there, our capitalist economy will strive to satisfy that need in an attempt to make money.
Trust me, every computer company in Houston that's ever even _talked_ to the govt. is scrambling their butts off to try to learn SimDesk right now...
OSS software? (Score:5, Insightful)
They don't need to embrace and extend this software because they already HAVE software that does everything this purports to do, the MS Office Suite. This is just a clone of Office, nothing innovative, I can't download the source, heck I can't even get a price list off of their web site.
I think this is just a case of price. The city of Houston got a great deal from a Houston based company. What's it called when a city practices nepotism, except without the relatives? Oh yeah, politics.
Re:The Mahatma Gandhi said it best... (Score:2, Insightful)
Then, they laugh at you.
Then, they fight you.
Then you win.
Every time I see this my immediate reaction is "So _that's_ why Microsoft is so successful." I'm not trolling; I just find it hilarious that so many Linux advocates consider crazed zealotry and endless flames about other operating systems to be passive resistance.
Actually Linux is a Cancer (Score:1, Insightful)
I have 3 companies that I've converted to Linux in the last 2 years and it saves tens of thousands of dollars.
Now if I could only get sftp to not crash on my raid-0 smp computer at home!!! damn thread model.
usatoday's attitude (Score:5, Insightful)
Nothing new there, but when this is the tone taken by mainstream media, and seen as so non-controversial that it's mentioned and then passed over, then Microsoft have already lost their key battle. Their marketing depends on them being seen as the safe option. If they are seen as the problem, then (as here) people will go looking for solutions.
Re:Funny enough, this will be good for MS users to (Score:4, Insightful)
Interesting... (Score:5, Insightful)
I still believe Linux is an extension of the Unix paradigm. It's a command-line-focused approach that's not particularly designed to be user friendly. The Windows approach is very different.
This kind of shows how clueless Microsoft really is about competing with Linux. Lest anyone forget that Windows was nothing more than a extension of a command-line-focused operating system called MS-DOS that wasn't particularly use friendly? Microsoft just started to hide the command-line with Windows 95. The same is happening with Linux, as it gains more acceptance. More and more tools are being developed that eliminate the need for command-line work.
True, any distro of Linux isn't quite at the XP level not needing to use the command-line, but it's starting to head in that direction. And if more and more companies and, more importantly, governments start to actively look at switching, there will be a big boom in eliminating the command-lind dependence.
Re:Recession and Open-Source (Score:3, Insightful)
alternatives to expensive software.
This is a good thing.
Switching to something just because it's cheaper and
not because it meets your need as well or better
than what you're currently using is stupid and
dangerous.
The biggest challenge for OSS is to educate
the masses so that the masses can make intelligent
decisions with regards to the software they're
using. Once we do that, we win. Use cost as an
added bonus to already good software, not as the
sole selling point.
Re:Good to see... (Score:3, Insightful)
Just my 2c.
Re:Server-Based Software (Score:3, Insightful)
MS entrapment spells doom for Houstin (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not clear to me they will save money, although it does seem clear that by doing this they can at least quantify the amount of money they need to spend. I wonder if these kinds of MS sales tactics can be argued as entrapment or bait & switch? Customers shouldn't need to feel like they must pay millions to get MS off their back, especially when the amount involved is in dispute.
A greater concern for Houstin is where the data will be stored. It's not clear from the website or the marketing blurbs if the SimDesk apps drop documents locally or remotely to the SimDesk server. At a minimum, the patent-pending Trashbin is purported to be remote - which would give you access to this content from anywhere. I sure hope this system is secure!
Of course, the fact that they are looking to partner with Unisys is reason enough to be concerned. Remember GIF [burnallgifs.org]? TBPH, Microsoft doesn't look like a bad alternative here -- if anything this should be a wakeup call for MS that license audits need to be approached with extreme caution.
Re:Funny enough, this will be good for MS users to (Score:5, Insightful)
If you need to collaborate, then encourage everyone on the team to either adopt an open standard (HTML, RDF, etc.) or get them onboard with OO.
Civic motivators (Score:5, Insightful)
Given the small budgets, byzantine approval processes, and both political and bureaucratic stumbling blocks that affect civic IT departments (and I sadly speak from experience), the most effective place to get cost savings is at the client side.
Only a very few people at the civic level need independent workstations, and the cost of support per user is higher than that of private-sector firms of comparable size. Ripping out the PCs and replacing them with Sun Rays or Wyse terms is a bright solution for cash-strapped cities. However, don't confuse this with a move to open source: as has been pointed out above, it's a fallacy to think that "proprietary" is synonymous with "Microsoft."
Re:Houston, we have a problem... (Score:1, Insightful)
Yes they can. If the city is using software that it's not legally allowed to use, then Microsoft and anyone else on the planet who is having their licence flaunted is allowed to make this ultimatum.
If the city is using software that it has not paid for, then it's not anyones fault but the city's. You can't blame Microsoft for wanting money which is owed to them.
If they don't want to pay money for software, then they should look at free alternatives. If they can't find anything that suits their needs, then they need to accept that they will have to pay for it or go without.
Re:Funny enough, this will be good for MS users to (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft has spent years and years outright lying, cheating, and stealing, in order to come to market dominance and stay there. (If you don't believe me, go ahead and review the anti-trust court cases.)
So *any* win for non-MS companies, even proprietary ones, is good. It will help mature the industry, and make it less lopsided. I'm not interested in the complete destruction of MS - that'd probably end up being just as bad as what we have now; a monoculture.
But these *are* wins. Microsoft has less money in its pockets to lie about FOSS, for instance. It has less clout to twist people's arms.
Network server, not Free Software (Score:3, Insightful)
This is the "Hailstorm" issue all over again. But it does have certian advantanges for poor folk who don't own their own systems, which was one of the reasons Houston starting looking at it. An out of work homeless person can put his resume on it, and then access his resume later from any other system he manages to get access too. He doesn't have to haul a floppy around with him out in the elements where he lives. If you read the article, it was tried out in public libraries as a way to "bridge the digital divide", and apparently was wildly successful.
Due to the fact that SimDesk holds your data hostage, they can probably offer a very different pricing structure than traditional software vendors. They can charge peanuts for the clients, and then keep charging you access fees for the server. Think of it as the first MMOS (Massively-Multiplayer Office Suite)
Why not Open Source? - Somebody's Brother-in-Law (Score:2, Insightful)
Which MS users? (Score:3, Insightful)
You won't see Open Source make any difference to MS's desktop junk for some time, if ever. Remember, damn near all the people who use linux read this site regularly, so "we" are not a representative sample.
Re:Funny enough, this will be good for MS users to (Score:1, Insightful)
You seem to be missing the point that people are migrating away. DOC isn't a reliable format for business. Ask any expert, and they will tell you that you should be using RTF or HTML. If you communicate to clients in one, proprietary format, then you are an idiot.
Re:Ans: OPEN SOURCE WINDOWS! (Score:2, Insightful)
one of Redmond's only cash cows (Office being the
other), what you've suggested will never happen.
MS needs the revenue from Windows to be able to
suck up the horrible losses it's taking in its
other divisions. If they GPLed Windows, they would
lose most of their sales revenue and probably most
of their service revenue.
Re:Funny enough, this will be good for MS users to (Score:1, Insightful)
i realize that some companies and some workstations might have sensitive data. REMOVE THE FREAKIN' DRIVES and sell/give them to employees.
the last place i worked had hundreds of decommissioned (sp?) notebooks and dock stations in a closet. there were plenty of desktops as well. sure, nobody wants the crappy 15" monitors, but the machines can be put to use with or without drives.
the fact that employees are able to and do keep company sensitive data locally on their workstations is another issue that i'll try to stay away from.
computer hardware is a quickly depreciating asset and expense. it really really irks me that companies hold onto this stuff that geeks go gaddy over. imagine a beowulf cluster indeed.
Re:Houston, we have a problem... (Score:5, Insightful)
The issue wasn't whether Houston was using software without licenses. The issue was that MS wanted Houston to choose between a long, expensive, time-consuming audit or buy the new software. Even if Houston ended up having licenses for every piece of software, the process of the audit would have distrupted normal work and cost them loads.
When you are dealing with a vendor that acts in this way, it's only smart to find another vendor. Hopefully MS will learn that this tactic will not endear them to customers, who are learning that alternatives are out there.
Re:The Mahatma Gandhi said it best... (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know many actual developers who concern themselves with the above mentality. The most successful ones just seem interested in cobbling together interesting bits of code regardless of how big or little the perceived audience for the code is.
I think the real importance of most of the zealots is about on par with the importance of the MS user groups. They're promotional mouthpieces, but their real-world effect is shadowed almost entirely by the effect of the actual software.
Re:Funny enough, this will be good for MS users to (Score:4, Insightful)
This is simply another example of 95% of people being disinterested in 95% of msoffice features.
Re:hmmmm, wonder why they chose SimDesk (Score:4, Insightful)
Their aim is infact to turn their PC's into X terminals. No, they won't be running eXeed. However, they will be using web browsers to achieve the same end result.
However, the "X terminal" is the model they are attempting to immitate.
Re:Houston, we have a problem... (Score:3, Insightful)
No wonder people are looking for alternatives. Contracting with Microsoft as your software supplier is like employing the Mafia as your investment bank.
Re:Funny enough, this will be good for MS users to (Score:3, Insightful)
the computarded of this world, have big dreams, and big mouths, but when it boils down to it, they could all be on PII 333 mhz machines and not know the difference. they just want to type emails or documents and surf the net.
learning anything more would upset their days (learning bad, stupid good mentality) and perhaps make it possible for them to do more work at work. they say, I WANT THE STARS AND THE MOON, but would settle for a trip to the end of the hallway for some coffee in a heartbeat.
ok, there is a point in the rant. X desktop + mozilla + OpenOffice is more than enough these days.
anyhow, m$ is trying to convince the world of the one thing everyone knows is not true. that they could possibly compete on price, quality or up time.
Youre making an assumption: (Score:4, Insightful)
Youre making an assumption that the Simdesk business plan doesnt end with:
2. Get bought out by Microsoft.
3. Profit!
This is exactly the reason why a win for ANY proprietary software company is a not a win for Free Software.
Re:Houston, we have a problem... (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft certainly *can* keep giving ultimatums, but it will no longer serve them like it might once have done. In fact, it is more likely now than ever before that it will work against them.
If the city is using software that it's not legally allowed to use, then Microsoft and anyone else on the planet who is having their licence flaunted is allowed to make this ultimatum.
Microsoft cannot possibly know that their 'licence is being flaunted' until the audit specified in the ultimatum is enacted. The article in question even specifies examples where the number of licences Microsoft believes they have is less than the number they actually do have. All I see here is deliberate scare tactics, and subsequently, I think the original poster was spot on the mark. The mods seem to think so to
Re:Funny enough, this will be good for MS users to (Score:3, Insightful)
I just need to keep saying that OSS isn't a silver bullet to having better software, but if there is a gem out there in the OSS world and it does a job I need done then I'm not beyond supporting it heavily.
I think MS should have started promoting benifits of its software instead of trying to cut down other peoples software ages ago. Software should compete on features, quality and price and I think both OSS and MS and other closed houses have some really good pieces of software and may be the best ones win. The world has changed and MS will no longer be able to ride its monopoly to great profits, they are actually going to have to work for thier money again and that is the best thing that could ever happen for consumers in the software market.
Back in the frying pan! (Score:1, Insightful)
As it stands now, Houston is out of one big frying pan, but squarely in the middle of a smaller one. And either way they're getting burned!
Re:Funny enough, this will be good for MS users to (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, Piper may be a liar, a cheat, and a thief (we don't even have a plea in the case to which you refer), but not in connection with the city of Houston's bidding process. As we see from material you quoted:
"The county District Attorney, in a separate probe, examined Piper's financial records and stumbled into evidence that Piper may have embezzled $200,000 from his previous employer, Reliant Energy." (emphasis added)
In fact, I'm at a loss to explain the newspaper's decision to drag this unrelated scandal into the article. I hope it wasn't to discredit one side in the Microsoft vs. SimDesk contest.
Microsoft allowed to 'audit' companies/cities? (Score:2, Insightful)
If I owned a company and said hell with Microsoft software, and they walked into my company, I would throw them right out on the curb.
It's just that simple.
WHY are companies/municipalities allowing this!?
Just say no, you cant browse our computers to look for stuff, its private and none of their buisness!
End this madness!
Re:Recession and Open-Source (Score:2, Insightful)
Many states are in a similar budget crunch.
How much do states pay Microsoft in annual licensing fees?
Shouldn't open source advocates be lobbying state legislatures to dump Microsoft as a tool for deficit reduction?
Re:Funny enough, this will be good for MS users to (Score:2, Insightful)
The company I work for has occasionally sent to contractors fairly complicated spreadsheets. We have specific tasks to complete, and these have proved the best method to accomplish them. We expect the contract to use the tools we provide to accomplish the task we set.
--Ravensfire
Re:Funny enough, this will be good for MS users to (Score:2, Insightful)
You're right that it's (on the surface at least) neither particularly good nor bad for OSS but if you consider the old "enemy of my enemy is my friend" way of looking at things then on some level this kind of thing may help. What's the single biggest obsticle for anyone else in the software universe other than Microsoft? That would be "Microsoft" I think. Anything that competes with them successfully, anything that takes their full attention from what you are doing to compete with them, and anything that demonstrates an ability to win anything against them is good for everyone hoping to do the same.
Re:Funny enough, this will be good for MS users to (Score:4, Insightful)
Once OpenOffice and StarOffice mature some more, and we see the Linux community develop some if the integrations that MS claims it can't, THEN OSS becomes another, and more serious competitor.
what this really means (Score:4, Insightful)
That's it. This isn't a win for OSS or for Linux, it's a win for everyone that doesn't rely on M$ day in and day out. It legitimizes what we do to people that don't understand.
Re:Amazing = the real story (Score:1, Insightful)
Ah, the Rush Limbaugh excuse machine comes to Slashdot. Let me get this straight- you are saying that a good ol' boy, deep in the heart of Texass, is a Liberal?
give me a break. your so called conservatives are nothing of the sort when it comes to skimming large amounts of money from the public drawer. This dates all the way back to Kissinger- the bigger the crime, the bigger the immunity. That is the Republican way- rape what you can, have the gool ol' boys cover your ass (no pun intended, although Deliverance comes to mind).
I live in Chicago, and we fortunately got rid of our so-called Conservatives, because they pretty much robbed the state of Illinois for the past 20 years that they were in charge of the state.
What is their legacy? A huge, staggering debt. Corruption scandals. Croonie-ism and patronage (hell, half the state politician's last names are Ryan).
And my personal favorite is a State funded daily traffic jam that we call our Tollway system. Why anyone would want to PAY to sit in a traffic jam is beyond me. How they can justify it and call it necessary, and at the same time raise how much they charge... well, its criminal, and hopefully some people are going to jail on this one.
Anyway, please dont blame the problems in Texass on 'Liberals'. It makes you sound like a person who has Rush do your thinking for you.
Re:Funny enough, this will be good for MS users to (Score:5, Insightful)
I just loved how the Texas Attorney General backed out of the DOJ/States vs Microsoft case when Dell and another Texas company pressured such a move. You know Microsoft 'asked' these companies to do this.... What did they 'ask' of Tatro??????
LoB
Re:Contract Scandal (Score:4, Insightful)
What kind of rigging is possible when there is only one bid?
The absolute best way of rigging a bid process is to ensure that there is only one qualified bidder. I've seen several techniques used to arrange this:
And, if all of that doesn't scare away all of your potential bidders, you can still tell your preferred vendor to lowball their estimate to make sure they're the lowest bid, planning for "cost overruns". If you want to be really dirty, you can even leak the other bidders' proposals and prices to your preferred vendor so that they can be sure to be the cheapest. Doing that is a good way to end up in jail, though.
There are *many* ways to rig a bid, and I'm sure I haven't seen them all.
Re:Funny enough, this will be good for MS users to (Score:5, Insightful)
Who said anything about open source? One second look at the Simdesk front page throws up words like 'proprietry' and 'patented'. See next paragraph.
Particularly as it appears that Sim desk is actually closed source and that this story is yet another bash Microsoft for any reason at all story.
You are waaay off the mark. A big win for a company that is competing with M$ Office is news because breaking the M$ hold on the file formats is important for open source making headway into the desktop market.
At the moment, M$ can change its file format as much as it likes to cut off any competitors. Those offering compatibility have no choice except to play catch-up.
If large government departments and corporations start using "Office compatiable" software then they are going to be upset if M$ starts producing incompatiable WP files. These are the kind of people that M$ have to listen to.
When large segments of markets start using different competing "Office compatible" suites then they will start making their users saving by default to a format that they *know* will work in all the suites (eg Word v.XXX). Once everybody gets locked into this version, and it's difficult for M$ to change it without upsetting too many people, then instead of playing catch-up everybody (open source and proprietary) can concentrate on polishing accurate import and export filters. This would be excellent for consumers.
You don't think that maybe some of the slashdot editors are getting paid by a Microsoft competitor or something?
Judging by the
Phillip.
Re:Funny enough, this will be good for MS users to (Score:3, Insightful)
Most people here don't like Microsoft for very good reasons. Just because the editors seem to dislike Microsoft (which I would assume) doesn't mean they're being paid, doesn't mean they're posting articles with large bias, or only posting anti-MS articles. The editors have an interest in Microsoft and what happens to them, as do most computer geeks.
Microsoft, AFAIK the biggest software company in the world and certainly the most powerful, just lost Houston. That is news. I'm sure the editors got a smile on their face and said, "Sweet, post it, sounds cool," but that doesn't mean anyone is getting paid off or that the Slashdot editors are largely biased.
This is a site for nerds. Nerds, in a large part, dislike Microsoft for very reasonable reasons. This news is interesting. Quit reading between the lines; this isn't CNN, this is a fun community news site.
His Freudian slip is showing (Score:3, Insightful)
I think he shot himself in the foot on that one.
This wonderfully brings out the difference between Microsoft and the unix/linux philosophy of "there's more than one way to cat a file". For a long time, I've been of the opinion that Microsoft's attitude toward their customers was pretty much the same as IBM's was in their (pre '80s) monopoly days.
The Linux solution, on the other hand starts with the premise of user freedom.(-: Two different Houstons -- both of whom think that Linux provides the necessary pieces for "the ultimate solution". :-)
Cost of Ownership (Score:2, Insightful)
I think that's the crux of this whole debate that all
Again, so what for Houston. If they have competent techs and it's a solid product, sure their ROI will be better. If their techs are incompetently lead (all too common) or inept (as common) then they won't see an ROI and they'll take the easy route out : blame the product\system\people\OSS.
From the Financial Times (Score:2, Insightful)
Free software has powerful attractions - which Microsoft exploited when it bundled a free internet browser into its operating system to challenge Netscape.
Yet another indication that attempts to distinguish between free-as-in-RMS-has-a-dream and free-as-in-AOL-CDs are completely lost on the mainstream media.
Obvious? (Score:2, Insightful)
The article mentioned that SimDesk was installed on the library's computers as a trial basis and it was extremely popular. Maybe since we're all highly computer literate, we tend to forget that there are many out there who aren't, maybe for the simple fact that they're too poor to own a computer.
Think about it. Suppose you were poor and didn't have a computer and needed to do some kind of word processing, your options would be limited. Not considering typewriters and all-in-one wordprocessors, you could either go over to a friend's and use their computer (assuming you had such a friend who wouldn't mind the inconvenience) or what--go to the library?
Assuming the library had a word processor or spreadsheet or whatever it was you needed to use, you'd still have to get a hold of a floppy disk or a zip disk in order to save your work. By using an office suite that enables you to save your work remotely, you eliminate the need for the user to buy storage media--something that for some could be unattainable.
Additionally, as has already been stated, the average Joe Blow user has no need for most of what M$ Office does. By going with SimDesk in the libraries, the city of Houston has made opened the door for many who were previously shut out. Heck, the article stated that it was their aim to make SimOffice available for every poor person.
"What began as Brown's goal to use SimDesk as an affordable way to give poor residents access to basic computer functions broadened into a plan to use SimDesk as a cheaper alternative on some city PCs, too."
And the results:
"... during nine months of the pilot program, more than 30,000 users had written and stored resumes, school papers, legal statements, poetry and other files on the SimDesk server. They couldn't do complex data sorting or many other chores Office does well. Even so, lines formed at the library's SimDesk terminals. Civic leaders rallied behind it. "SimDesk lowers the barriers for the low-income community," says Brian Stevens, executive director of The Telecom Opportunity Institute, a non-profit that guides at-risk youth."
Like many of you, my first reaction was, "Huh?!" Why didn't they go with Open Office?" Maybe because you have to save your files locally and SimOffice eliminates that need? There's no risk of losing or damaging your floppy. However, to be fair, if SimDesk's network or hard drives fail, where are you? It's a tradeoff, I guess.
Anyway, I think the fact that Mayor Brown was concerned about bringing basic computer functioning to the masses, succeeded, saved money, didn't have to upgrade hardware, and did it all in spite of Micro$oft's corporate extortion is quite a feat. So what if it's not open source? Do you really think that any of the new beneficiaries of the free access to the previously unavailable technology give a rip about that?
Re:Amazing (Score:2, Insightful)
If what you say is true, it proves what a hypocritical site this really is, and shows how much the 'editors' really care about free software (ie: not at all).