Bobby Fischer FBI Files Released Under FOIA 517
An anonymous reader writes: "Philidelphia Inquirer has a stroy detailing the results of a FOIA request for chess great Bobby Fischer." Turns out they thought the anti-semitic chess grandmaster(and his mother) was a soviet spy.
I hope they dont.. (Score:5, Funny)
So.. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:So.. (Score:5, Funny)
Kierthos
Re:So.. (Score:2, Funny)
See you later Space Cowboy. .
Searching for Bobby Fischer (Score:2, Funny)
The worth of Bobby Fischer (Score:5, Interesting)
man o man (Score:2, Interesting)
For someone who is capable of such incredible reasoning you would think he would turn out much different than a southern white trash redneck.
I'm not totally informed on all of the details but when I hear him say "dirty jew" and other nasty things about the Israelis I just wanna slap him and say "WTF happened to you?!?!"
Re:man o man (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:man o man (Score:3, Funny)
Re:man o man (Score:2, Offtopic)
At the time the United States was established as a political entity, it was a confederation of states. The word "state", you may notice, is in technical discussions and most parts of the world a term referring to a country, not a province. The issue of how much power the federal government was to have caused huge political strife and was by no means settled at the time of the Civil War.
Prior to Andrew Jackson and to a larger extent the Civil War, the doctrine of nullification was widely accepted. It allowed a state to refuse to comply with a federal law it felt was unconstitutional, requiring the federal government to either rescind the law or pass a Constitutional amendment (requiring a 2/3 majority) establishing it. If the federal government wished to force the issue, the state had the right to secede from a government it no longer agreed with.
Under Jackson, the federal government established tariffs on southern goods, the proceeds of which were intended to be used to prop up the failing northern economy. This enraged the south, and 1 of the states (North Carolina, perhaps?) nullified the tariff. John C. Calhoun, the Vice President, supported nullification, putting him at odds with Jackson, who learned about this time that Calhoun had supported Jackson's censure for illegally invading parts of Florida and executing 2 British citizens.
Angered by this betrayal and threatened by a state's defiance of the federal government, Jackson reacted harshly and the state was forced to back down from nullification. Jackson's other actions, such as ignoring the Supreme Court ruling on his deportation of Native Americans, further strengthened the power of the executive branch.
The Confederate States of America had a constitutional government with popular democratic support, and was in a situation basically analogous to Taiwan today. Had Lincoln not forced reunification, the 2 countries could easily have gone their separate ways. Whether these countries would have been able to survive without the joint industrial and agricultural economy enjoyed by the United States is another question.
Other actions taken during the Civil War by the federal government, such as the Alien and Sedition Acts, the Emancipation Proclamation, and the revocation of habeas corpus, cemented the perception and power of the federal government and significantly expanded the privileges enjoyed by the executive branch.
It was only until some time after the Civil War that "United States" became a singular term, nullification and secession were viewed as bizarre and unacceptable. The Civil War was a turning point for the United States of America, turning them from a republic into an empire, with Lincoln as its first emperor.
Re:man o man (Score:2)
Also IIRC some of the states made their own unilateral declarations of independence from Britain.
It was only until some time after the Civil War that "United States" became a singular term, nullification and secession were viewed as bizarre and unacceptable. The Civil War was a turning point for the United States of America, turning them from a republic into an empire, with Lincoln as its first emperor.
Looks like the US copied Rome a little too well... It wasn't until even more recently, that the US Congress decided to read parts of the US Constitution effectivly "backwards". Considering the "commerce clause" to overrule the 10th ammendment.
Re:man o man (Score:3, Insightful)
Except none of that was built into our constitution. Our past may be shameful, but it's not like our government explicitly permitted raping and slaughtering the natives in our Constitution. You seem to be defending- or at least apologizing for- the CSA based on legal reasoning, but it was founded based on a largely untenable principle. FYI, importation of slaves was already illegal long before the Civil War (I believe 1809), but hundreds of thousands were brought in illegally anyway.
Re:man o man (Score:3, Insightful)
Look how many of the geniuses of the past lived fscked lives. Newton for instance (probably) died a virgin. Literary figures are another area where the greats seem to lead terrible lives.
Re:man o man (Score:5, Funny)
What a great idol for the
Re:man o man (Score:4, Insightful)
How did that dude get so fucked up.
Its called paranoid schitzophrenia [295.30 DSM-IV]. One of Bobby Fischer chess contemporaries, Reuben Fine, was a psychologist, and noted symptomatic behavior when Fischer was a teenager. It also explains a lot of odd behavior Fischer has exhibited throughout his life. Its sad, really.
BTW, southern white trash redneck anti-semitism is not much different than your pro-zionist prejudice.
Re:man o man (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:man o man (Score:2)
Re:man o man (Score:3, Informative)
Dosn't matter if his father was or wasn't. His mother being Jewish makes him Jewish.
Re:The worth of Bobby Fischer (Score:2)
Sure, the US has been guilty of many things, but putting it all of it in the context of racist fault-finding ain't gonna help your case.
This recording is just amazing. So much hate spewing forth. When will people take responsibillity for their own lives, rather than trying to find some group to blame it on? Good 'ol Bob has got some issues and uses racism to deal with them. Makes me sad.
I recommend listening to this interview, if only to enlighten yourself about what we all face. People need to evolve to get past the differences and prejudices that separate us all. Hate is learned.
Bobby, you might be a good chess player, but you have a lot to learn.
Re:The worth of Bobby Fischer (Score:2)
I kind of doubt that even the Soviets would want that lunatic as a spy.
An intelligent man (in the logic-and-strategy-at-board-games sense)
but a lunatic and asshole nonetheless.
(And one of my personal favorites when I want
to point out that having intelligence and acting intelligently are two
very, very, different things.)
Re:The worth of Bobby Fischer (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, he has problems. Many geniuses, and by extension, chess grandmasters, have severe psychological issues. I read Karpov's autobiography (World Champion 75-85) and it is filled with stories of both genius and complete emotional immaturity. Sometimes I felt like I was reading about the antics at a playground.
One doesn't become a grandmaster overnight. Generally, if you are not on your way by your teens, you will never make it. It involves studying chess every day for years and years. There is a reason there are less than 500 in the world. As a result of their studies, however, I think many miss out on the basic socialization acquired by most people. They would probably make the average Slashdot reader look like a well-adjusted socialite.
Now, I am not trying to make excuses for Fischer's comments. I'm just trying to put them in perspective. Try not to judge him too harshly for his screwed up views on politics and society. He's not exactly an expert on either. He's an idiot, in fact.
I still idolize Fischer, but not for anything but his chess. That is quite enough for me. He created works of art in his games that will be studied for as long as people play the game.
Re:The worth of Bobby Fischer (Score:2, Interesting)
Let it never be said, though, that we anonymous cowards lack courage in our convictions!!
So - I just thought I'd point out that the immaturity and lack of socialisation in some of those guys is possibly because of some degree of Asperger's Syndrome - i.e. high functioning autism. Glenn Gould is another example of one who fits the profile, and more to the point one might guess it of Bobby Fischer.
Don't expect great interpersonal sensitivity or diplomacy from him. If I'm right, it's just not in his array of capabilities.
Regards,
A. Coward. (a.k.a Ron Williams)
Re:The worth of Bobby Fischer (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not convinced. I collect books by Grandmasters and read chess news. For every Bobby Fischer and Paul Morphy (widely considered to be the previous American genius going back to the 1800) there seem to be a lot of chess players who are nice functional human beings. Fischer seems to be unique in both his paranoia and his complete inability to relate to other people which makes him notorious in the chess community (reporters were forced in his rematch to call him "World Champion").
Re:The worth of Bobby Fischer (Score:3, Insightful)
For example, in 1971 when he defeated Taimanov 6-0 in the first round of the Candidates matches for the World Champs. Taimanov was not only a GM but one of the world's elite players
A match score of 6-0 is practically unheard of at this level, the weaker player always manages to pick up at least a draw or two. Certainly such a result was a first in World Championship history.
That Fischer was able to then beat Larsen 6-0 in his next match was verging on unbelievable. Larsen was without doubt in the world's top 10, probably top 5.
Then there was the time Fischer won the US Champs with a perfect 11/11 score, something never repeated before or since.
To achieve such results, and whats more achieve them without the backing of a team of grandmasters such as Karpov or Kasparov had, requires a level of dedication and intensity way way beyond the average grandmaster.
Re:The worth of Bobby Fischer (Score:4, Interesting)
Sorry, have to interject here. It's not quite right. Currently, FIDE recognizes 565 individuals as being Grand Masters. There are 108 World Grand Masters, which is different than International Master. (FIDE is rather strange with how they work)
The way you make money as a Master+ is not through tournaments. Most tournaments you wont win a purse big enough unless you are in the top 50. However, you can still make a good amount of money. Teaching and authoring is one of the best ways to make a living as a chess player. You do not have to be a Grand Master or International Master to teach and get paid. 2200+ (Master rating) will get you enough prestige to be paid well. I can make money (1800+) teaching, but only about $10/hour, so I'm better off programming.
Other than Fischer the Russians have owned the World Championship since at least the '60s.
True, but that was purely because Chess was/is a career in Russia/USSR. Look at the history of Tal and Keres (They each have pretty detailed autobiographies) where they played chess from early on, and that was the only job they knew/know.
You can make big money in tournaments, but it isn't likely. I teach chess for free to anyone who asks, but my lessons aren't as intense as one a master would give. It's good for the starting players, especially someone who wants to get into "cafe chess"
That's why Fischer's win against Spassky in '72 was so incredible. Basically, one man with relatively little support took down the best the Russian chess organization could send. Other than Fischer the Russians have owned the World Championship since at least the '60s.
This is also why Fischer is so resentful towards the US. The US still failed to offer him any support even after the defeat Spassky took. He changed the US image in FIDE (There are over 170 countries that are members of FIDE) -- it's like soccer. No one expects the US to ever win the world cup, then you get one person that wins it single-handedly, then the US doesn't really acknowledge a damn thing. I can understand his resentment, not to the point of applauding terrorist attacks, though. It's not hard for one man to beat 5 of Russians best. It is hard to still not get any support from the nation you are playing for.
The US did a lot of bad things to Fischer, and I for one don't expect him to forgive the US. However, I don't support him or think he's a nice fellow. I can just understand a set of his feelings. My idol is Paul Keres [spunk.mfa.ee]
Re:The worth of Bobby Fischer (Score:2)
Could you name a couple of countries that does NOT spy upon their own citizens. Maybe you would prefer anarchy, since no government now (or in the past) has clean hands.
I empathize with Bobby Fischer and I respect the man all the more for what he has said. The true worth of a man is not blind faith in his nation of birth, nor a terrible sangunity. It is the ability to speak your mind desptie an overwhelmingly large opposition.
And you post as Anonymous Coward... Well, I guess your dog still respects you.
Re:The worth of Bobby Fischer (Score:2)
You can find such governments, but generally only because they are governments in exile. If they were to take back control of their countries they most certainly would be spying on their own citizens, most immedialty those suspected of aiding occupation.
Re:If I were Fischer I would hate the US too. (Score:2)
Like Saddam Hussain OBL is a former US puppet who turned on his "masters".
Then Osama could not take it anymore and may have tried to participate in destroyingh the world trade centers.
Maybe Castro is less easily upset, considering the number of botched US assasination attempts he has faced. Though if OBL wanted revenge why not target the CIA HQ?
The US gove BANS chess people from playing overseas. EVEN in 2002!!!!! Its true, certain chess experts are banned from international competition if the contests are in certain countries that embarrass the US.
Does the US actually need other countries to embarrass it, all too often the US can manage without anyone elses help...
Re:If I were Fischer I would hate the US too. (Score:2)
This must rank amongst the daftest of the JFK theories. If any small nation had managed to kill a superpower leader don't you think they would have claimed responsibility and used David vs Goliath symbolism?
Looks like they were looking at him a little early (Score:2, Redundant)
From the article: "I was happy and could not believe what was happening. All the crimes the US has committed in the world. This just shows, what goes around comes around, even to the US."
Re:Looks like they were looking at him a little ea (Score:2)
In which case maybe US authorities should just quietly take him out of the country. As happened with the people from "Urban Moving Systems" who were caught red handed celebrating as the building burned.
Re:Looks like they were looking at him a little ea (Score:2, Troll)
The owner of the company suddenly dissapeared back to israel, with a warehouse still full of other peoples belongings.
Re:Looks like they were looking at him a little ea (Score:2)
The clue is that if the US press says "Middle Eastern" then odds on they are refering to Israelis, anyone else from the Middle East would either have their citizenship given or called an "Arab".
Can't be too careful... (Score:5, Funny)
Ah, the good old days (Score:4, Insightful)
>The files reflect a time when nervous leaders had little restraint.
Gee, sound familiar?
USA! USA! USA (Score:5, Insightful)
What with the PATRIOT act and Homeland Security, in 20 years we should have even more interesting FBI paranoia to read.
Re:USA! USA! USA (Score:4, Insightful)
In the words of Ben Kingsley, (Score:2, Interesting)
And in the words of Homeless Fishburne, "COME ON GRANDMASTER.. All right, CHECK to his majesty, no, no, no, no, check yourself before you wreck yourself, you can't have it, HELLO! That's right, run, run, somebody call the police, this man is loitering!"
Re:In the words of Ben Kingsley, (Score:5, Interesting)
Bobby Fischer seemed to drop his interaction with most people when the FBI would investigate the people he came into contact with. It would be enough to make me very paranoid at a minimum. When I try to emulate his perspective based on his approach to chess, it gets more interesting.
Look at a chess board and see a massive parallel and deep attack. The pieces only represent positions, the real battle is mental between two powers. Victory comes from overpowering and outlasting your opponent. If you loose concentration and perspective, it is easy for your opponent to start using your own pieces against you by limiting your movments with your pieces. That seems to explain his withdrawal from public interaction, he limited the liability of having others around that would be a liability. He would have seen the FBI as an opponent with thousands of pieces that had to be controlled. If most of those that would be considered his opponents could only focus on him, then they became the ones that had limited movment and got in each others way.
It is late and I may be rambling a bit, but for a perspective on the different level of mental capability Bobby Fischer has over the average person,
read this google cached page [216.239.37.100] about Josh Waitzkin and try to relate. Josh has studied Bobby Fischer in great depth and can see many of the flaws in Bobby's game/life. From what I can see from Bobby Fischers perspective, I would have become a paraniod freak from the pressures that he and his family endured.
Apple. Orange. Know the difference. (Score:5, Insightful)
As explained in the article, the FBI had a long-running investigation of Fischer and his mother back in the 70's and earlier. It's just another illustration that the US govt has been spying on its own citizens for decades, long before there was any sort of terrorist rationalization.
Re:correction (Score:2)
Actually terrorism has been around in the mainstream American sense, since the 1950's, which is why Kennedy formed the U.S. Navy SEAL's in 1962. Their aim was specifically targeted at terrorism, Yasser Arafat in particular.
We have just become complacent because since the mid 80's the American media has been more focused on what happens within our borders rather than outside them. This is what 911 changed, the American medias focus, and in affect ours.
Its been going on for a long time.
Re:Apple. Orange. Know the difference. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Apple. Orange. Know the difference. (Score:2)
Apart from the language and the details of the conspiracy theories it spins probably not much different from the last version in the US. Indeed probably not much different from any other previous version throughout recorded history.
PC Attitude is Hypocritical (Score:5, Insightful)
Case in point. John McCain has more than once voiced his anti-Vietnamese attitude. You don't see the press calling him the Anti-Vietnamese Senater.
Of course if Joe Smoe says anything negative about jewish people, IMMEDIATELY everyone (like a reflex action) labels him an antismetic and it's like he is a pedophile and they discount everything that he says, even the truthful elements.
I find this behavior troubling because: 1. it creates restriction on freedom of speech and thought for the general population. 2. It creates white/non-jewish backlash against minority groups.
Both of these troubling, growing situations can be prevented by BEING FAIR and not trying to make the jewish population untouchable from public comments, even if the comments happen to be negative
Of course, I'm sure I will be labeled anti-semetic after this post by the ignorant and by pro-censors. But, please think about it. I'm advocating freedom of speech, an essential pillar of our democratic society that is being chiseled away at for the past decade or so.
Re:PC Attitude is Hypocritical (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, but... (Score:2)
Hence, bigots are just being more efficient with their brains. Not more effective, mind. Just quicker to come to conclusions, and then stop thinking. Leaves more time to watch TV.
Re:PC Attitude is Hypocritical (Score:2, Funny)
Re:John McCain (Score:4, Insightful)
Men like McCain who had to fight them now just how evil they were. Ad to that his stay in the POW camps, the deaths of close friends, etc and you have a recipe for a life times worth of anger hate and general anxiety.
That part of the world is not a good place. No matter what the liberals would like us to believe, the south east asain governments do not respect life. However the vietnamese people as well as cambodians etc are generally good people.
Re:John McCain (Score:4, Interesting)
Ultimately, both sides were wrong. However there are a lot of people that just wanna beat America down, for a multitude of personal reasons, so America is the bad guy.
No one wants to hear about how South and North Vietnam were at war long before we came into the picture. That we were asked to help because of our minor success in Korea.
I think a true testament of what we are made of as a country is the fact we came together after vietname. Russie fell apart after its war in Afghanistan, literally. America learned a lot of lessons in the 60's and 70's and so far hasn't repeated any of those same mistakes.
Blah, whatever, no matter what we say in a slashdot thread, the world still hates the top dog. Just part of life I suppose.
Consider this... (Score:5, Interesting)
Some time after he was locked out of the USA by the state department, he would go onto foreign radio shows and say the most outrageous things.
In his own opinion, he did more for the image of the US during the cold war than any other individual. Indeed.
And they fucked his family and him over. Instead of respect he got suspicion and hounding.
So perhaps in his own opinion, he can do more to damage the image of the USA by spouting off. Retracting and degrading everything he did for the US image.
Trying to take back what he gave them.
I guess that's like losing a chess championship... (Score:2)
The leadership of the U.S. has changed 8 times since 1970, when Nixon was in office.
If, in fact, this is his motivation, he's fighting against an administration that's been out of power for a quarter of a century, and whose leadership, even if he could legitimately blame them, is already dead.
Perhaps his time would be better spent elsewhere?
-- Terry
Re:I guess that's like losing a chess championship (Score:3, Insightful)
The leadership of the U.S. has changed 8 times since 1970, when Nixon was in office.
If, in fact, this is his motivation, he's fighting against an administration that's been out of power for a quarter of a century, and whose leadership, even if he could legitimately blame them, is already dead.
You honestly believe that the current administration is totally distinct to those of the past? Christ on a bike, Daddy Bush was head of the CIA [tarpley.net], Cheney was Ford's assistant and Chief of Staff [whitehouse.gov]. Your current administration is chock-a-block with the same crooks and cronies as Bush Sr's 10 years ago, which was stuffed with Regan-era and earlier muppets. And now, to top it off, here comes Poindexter [thedubyareport.com] eager to set up his new Stasi. It's unbelievable.
A few selected Quotes. (Score:5, Funny)
Nuts (Score:3, Interesting)
One of his final gems: "The Jews made up the Holocaust". How nice, and a pure lie. What a horrible thing to say, from any angle, whatever his past was like. This guy is in the same league as the Timothy Mcveighs of the world. NUTS.
Either you mean what you say or not. This has nothing to do with PCness. This guy is insane and filled with rage. We need less of those people around.
Violent talks just lead to violent acts. USA doesn't need someone like him. They've got enough of those to deal with already
Re:Nuts (Score:4, Insightful)
Violent talks just lead to violent acts.
And violent acts lead to more violent acts - that's why September 11th happened. Arabs hate the US because they sponsor Israel, a state which has pursued policies similar to the Third Reichs for more than fifty years. For example:
So here we have a state that uses military aggression against civilians, essentially its own citizens. They pursue research and production of weapons of mass destruction, and have violated other states sovereignty to assasinate figures they don't like. Sounds like Iraq, but it also applies equally to Israel. Of course Israel doesn't have massive oil reserves, and the US has a powerful pro-Israeli lobby along with a president financed by oil hungry industry.
The Telegraph article linked to a number of times in this Slashdot thread should be taken in context. It's published in Britain by a dubious Canadian with pro-Israeli views, a man who censures his own staff and others if they write anything that criticises Israeli policies or highlights Palestinian grievances. Of course Fischer isn't going to be portrayed in a balanced light by the Telegraph ... ignore Fischers disgust at the way the US has treated him and his likely mental issues, he looks more anti-semitic that way.
Chris
Re:Nuts (Score:5, Insightful)
there are people who advocate hatred in every society. the nazis rounded up millions of civilians and slaughtered them. israelis have not. for you to equate the israelis with the nazis is ignorant.
Just because there are people advocating hate in every society doesn't make it right. And you may want to check your own level of ignorance, last time I checked there were millions of Palestinians rounded up into the West Bank and Gaza, having been evicted by force from land they had lived on for centuries. And as for slaughter, check up on the activities of the Jewish forces during the foundation of Israel - murdering Arab civilians was common place.
I can and will equate the extremists in Israeli society with Nazis, because they are very vocal about the policies I attributed to them in my previous post. The proposals to ethnically cleanse the West Bank by any means necessary is not conjecture, but the avowed policies of some of the parties represented in the Knesset. It's also the view of the head of the Israeli land forces.
israel invades neighbors defensively, in response to attacks, such as missiles and mortar fire coming from across the border in lebanon
Israel threw the first stone. It's a state born out of violence, and perpetuated by violence.
try educating yourself about the facts if you want to post about such issues. most likely you're just being a troll, though, i don't know why i waste my time responding to you.
I've been to Israel, met many different people both Arabs and Jews. Go back far enough in my family tree and you'll find Jewish blood on my fathers side. I'm not a troll, I'm simply cheesed off with the misinformed gibberish that most people spout about the Middle East. Having lived in America, I can understand the bias there - the popular press is rabidly pro-Israeli, and any politician who upsets the Jewish lobby can kiss their career goodbye. The sad thing is there are people on both sides of the Arab-Israeli divide who are level headed and reasonable, but their voices are drowned out by populist bullshit from all sides. Even when the cheif Rabbi in Britain questioned Israeli human rights abuses, he was shouted down by the loudmouted Israeli apologists in his won society.
Chris
Where is Philidelphia? (Score:2, Funny)
They've got a secret (Score:3, Funny)
I'm stumped too. Stumped how a gameshow in America, in 1958, could give away air tickets to Russia?! What else did you win, bug detector so you could tell when the feds were watching?
National Security (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:National Security (Score:3, Insightful)
The FBI did have a legitimate national security interest in the Fischers. His mother lived and attended medical school in the Soviet Union. The KGB and GRU recruited agents from foreign students attending schools in the Soviet Union. His father fought against the fascists in the Spanish Civil War. That in itself isn't a problem, but it puts him in a group that was heavily infiltrated and influenced by the Communist Party and Soviet intelligence operations. The FBI didn't have the right to harass the Fischers, but I think they had a legitimate national security interest in investigating their activities to see if they were involved in espionage or other crimes.
Yeah, but he was a chess player for god's sake what possible national security issue could he raise? Maybe he was deep programmed to shove a bishop in the president's brain if he got close enough? Seriously though, the thing that really sticks in my craw about all this spying and stuff in the west is that the institutions of government, are really strong enough to survive most every attempt to "espionage" them. It is the ego (technical not derogatory definition) of the office holders that leads to the "questionable" activity. Indeed, institutions such as the "rule of law", "separation of powers" or for you American's the "Bill of Rights" and the "Constitution" are made stronger by their ability to survive the most serious attacks on their incumbants by being indifferent to the specific individuals excercising them (yeah, yeah I know it aint perfect). It is funny how the greatest threats to these way of life shaping facets of our socieities are the excesses of the incumbent office holders and their needs to "protect" us from ourselves or to "protect" the institutions that seem to do a pretty good job on their own.
Re:National Security (Score:2)
The sort of warped minds who'd seriously consider killing a head of state using a cigar quite probably would consider a chess set a potentially lethal weapon...
sigh (Score:3, Interesting)
Now, as for him hating the USA? How about this line of the story: He resurfaced in 1992 to beat Spassky again, in Yugoslavia. That got Fischer indicted: The Justice Department alleged he had violated U.N. sanctions imposed on Yugoslavia. If Fischer reenters the United States, prosecutors say, he faces arrest. Add that up with our FBI thinking his mother was a soviet spy, and I'd say they just wanted to fuck with the guy. We all think we're free until we do something the government doesn't want us to do. If I were him, I'd be pissed at the USA also. The USA is a great place to live, the best in the world. And I love the USA. But that doesn't mean we're always right, or that someone doesn't have a legit reason to hate our country/government. Unfortunately/sadly, in this democracy for the people by the people, the people aren't always the ones who are to blame for the wrong doings, but are usually the ones who pay the price. Its to bad we can't all just get along.
Re:sigh (Score:4, Insightful)
I must be watching a different news show, reading a different newspaper than you. What happens is some palestinian nut job comes into Israel, blows himself up, and tries to take as many innocent lives as possible. Then after this provocation, Israel attempts to either assassinate the people involved with the planning of the attacks, or take out their entire neighborhood with tanks.
Here's a good question: How many Israeli suicide bombers have you read about?
It's not terrorism when you're responding to an attack, and trying to localize your response to the perpetrators.
Re:sigh (Score:4, Insightful)
How many Nazi suicide bombers have you read about? How many Soviet suicide bombers have you read about? If you have tanks, you don't need suicide bombers.
It's not terrorism when you're responding to an attack, and trying to localize your response to the perpetrators.
They take out their entire neighborhood with tanks. Imagine your neighbor went nuts, so they rolled up tanks on your front lawn. Would you feel that that was a localized response?
I'm not arguing that Israel is in an easy position, but they are far from lily-pure here.
Re:sigh (Score:4, Insightful)
But the reason Isreal doesn't have suicide bombers is because they have a GNP 10000 times larger than the Palestinians. They've got bombs. Recall that operation recently where they blew up an apartment complex to get one guy? That isn't because the majority of Isrealis support things like that, but because in any conflict there will be crazies. You could be sure that if the situations were reversed (hell, if you put any two groups of people in the world in that situation) suicide bombings would be used by the weaker side. Hell, just look at all those nutty settlers. They are camping out in Hebron now (with Sharon's voiced approval).
The fact is that the Palestinians have a reason for grief, after being driven out (or leaving voluntarily, depending on the historian) during the war of Isreali independance. And after that, having their land occupied (after a war Isreal had with someone else) since the '67 war.
Anytime you have something like that, you can depend on people not simply giving up. You can depend on them using whatever means are at their disposal to fight. And on the Israeli side, Isreal was founded by Jews running from European persecution--and later the holocaust--and now it is populated mostly by people who have been living there their entire lives, and have no other home.
You could have predicted all this from the first kibbutz built in British Palestine. Or maybe since the first Jew burned by the Inquisiton. There is overwhelming blame to go around, but it will never be enough. The responsibility of leaders on all sides is to build a peace however they can.
Re:sigh (Score:3, Insightful)
You consider a destroying a neighborhood a localized response? I pray you never get a law enforcement position. "Well, we knew that the suspect was somewhere in the neighborhood, so we blew the whole thing up."
The Palestinian suicide bombers and ambushes are morally reprehensible, and those organizing the attacks should be arrested, tried for thier crimes, and sentenced. However, destroying the homes of family members of suicide bombers, destroying neighborhoods, and assassinating various people suspected (but not tried in court) of orchestrating these attacks is just as wrong. Is it any wonder that the Palestinians are desperate? Did your father act as a suicide bomber? Say goodbye to your home. Accidentally live too near to a terrorist and become an accidental casualty to an Israeli bomb or bullet? Tough luck.
The entire situation is a giant mess. The leaders on both sides are acting like idiots and getting alot of innocent people killed. Both sides are left feeling desperate and lashing out randomly at each other, reinforcing their desperation.
But they thought EVERYBODY was a Soviet spy (Score:4, Funny)
US Gov't Full of Shit on Fischer (Score:3, Insightful)
The other ridiculous thing that the US gov't has done to Fischer is threatned to arrest him should he ever return to the US, because he played a chess tournament in a nation which was under "sanctions" by the US. Fischer tore up a letter from the US gov't demanding that he not play in that nation. He has the right to play chess where-ever the fuck he wants to. He shouldn't face punishment for carrying out his livelihood in a nation the US "doesn't approve of". He could play fucking Chess in Iraq and make millions for the Iraq government. That's his fucking right.
Yes, Fischer has some obnoxious views, and has said some cruel and hateful things about the Jews, and has said some outrageous things about 9/11. Again, that's his right. He has the right to say whatever the fuck he wants to. Quite frankly, I can understand him for hating the US. He is the only US citizen who has brought honor to the US in the chess arena -- the only American who's ever been anything in chess. And not only was/is he good, he was/is the best. The US government repaid him by threatening to arrest him because he played Chess in a "sanctioned nation". That doesn't mean its right to say that the 9,000 people who died at 9/11 deserved it, but he still has the right to say that.
As for his hatred of the Jews, though I'm not saying its good, he still has the right to hold whatever opinions he wants. Though it would make more sense if he hated Christians, as he was scammed by the "Worldwide Church of God". But from his perspective, he's been wronged by Jews. He's particularly enraged about all of the profiteering that has been going on around his name, while he hasn't received a dime. Movies like "Searching for Bobby Fischer" and biographies of him were made, yet he's received no compensation. In short, other people are making billions of dollars off of his name, and he attributes this mainly to the Jews. That doesn't justify hating all Jews, but its still his right to do so.
Re:soviet spy (Score:5, Informative)
Who? Are you talking about Wen-ho Li? The guy from LANL? That guy was railroaded by the Justice and Energy depts. They basically ruined the guy because he [allegedly] mishandled information on obselete data that although officially classified, was known by everyone anyway. And the guy was in prison for a year before his case was dropped. That's right. The charges were dismissed. So obviously he's a pretty big spy if his case is thrown out. Or you could be talking about someone else... at least I hope so...
Andy
Wen Ho Li's "crime".... (Score:3, Funny)
Downloading While Chinese.
Re:soviet spy (Score:3, Informative)
Also, the judge in the case, as well as then president clinton, apologised for his treatment.
Wen Ho Lee not a spy. (Score:2)
I find that it's frquently the case that naturalized citizens are more profoundly loyal to their country than those born to citizenship.
If you are going to post something stupid, at least do us the courtesy of making it appear factual.
-- Terry
Re:Wen Ho Lee not a spy. (Score:2)
-- Terry
Re:Wen Ho Lee not a spy. (Score:2)
When did people in the "Republic of China" cease to be "Chinese". Both the RoC and the PRC claim to be the true China.
Re:Anti-Semitic = on the FBI's most wanted list (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, you caught us. America is a military dictatorship. You found us out. Our military state is run by those pesky Jews, who go around making up things like the Holocaust, and running Hollywood, and exterminating the Palestinians, and running the FBI and the CIA and all the black ops agencies I can't tell you about because the Zionist Conspiracy told me not to.
You and the nutty, paranoid anti-semites like yourself should grow up and grow a sack. Jews are people like any other people, some are violent and hawkish, some are pacifist doves, some are in between. Many are selfish, many are selfless. Some are brilliant, some are morons, most are just somewhat above average (typical for those from a culture that values learning and intellectual accomplishment).
Why do Jews have a lot of influence in America? Because Jews work hard and achieve success in academia, business and other areas at a higher rate than the rest of the population. Some other ethnic groups have achieved similar sorts of success in America. Do Jews control the US? Give me a break. That's as likely as your implicit claim that all those Palestinians are entirely innocent and are just getting slaughtered like hogs. Granted, lots of innocent blood has been shed on both sides (no, telling me that 4 times as many Palestinians have died doesn't make a fuck bit of a difference to me as in no way makes for a moral argument) in Israel and the occupied territories, but implying that somebody is turning a blind eye to some mysterious atrocities is ridiculous.
Re:Anti-Semitic = on the FBI's most wanted list (Score:3, Interesting)
1. A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.
Actually, I don't think that word applies here. It's not a stereotype, because it's not an opinion or an image. It's just a statement of fact. Look at any elite university in the country and you will probably find that Jews represent a greater proportion of the student population than they do of the population at large. Does this mean that "Jews are smarter than other people" or "all Jews are smart" or some other clearly fallacious bullshit? Of course not, that's crazy, as crazy as saying "all Blacks are thieves". Do more Black people, proportionally, commit certain kinds of crimes than White people? Yes - statement of fact, you can back it up by pretty solid statistics.
Prejudice is "an adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts." according to the American Heritage dictionary. I don't believe that observing cultural behavior patterns among certain ethnic groups and their statistically verifiable results amounts to prejudice. Saying that "Jews are dirty cheats" or "Asians are passive little math nerds" or "all Blacks are thieves" are all fundamentally opinion-laden, overly broad statements that are not verifiable (the first or second) or just plain not true (the third). The only opinion-laden part of my statement was the phrase "work hard", and while there are certainly other ways to explain some of the observable consequences, many others can be explained by no other means.
If you want facts and figures and so forth, go to Google, I am sure you can find some. And of course, note that according to the definition of the word, noting positive accomplishments of certain groups is NOT prejudice, and if it consists primarily of facts rather than opinions, it is not a stereotype either.
Re:Anti-Semitic = on the FBI's most wanted list (Score:2, Insightful)
As an American citizen I am totally disgusted with our double-standards regarding the Jews / Arabs. The Jews' 'mission from God' to reclaim the land of their legends no matter what the cost to the people who actually live there now must be ended in the name of humanity, but I doubt that America will make a move to right the wrongs unless they come under intense terrorist attack - which unfortunately is quite likely so we will see.
You would be surprised at how many Americans are willing to sweep the issue under the carpet because the current situation works out well for the US economically.
Re:Anti-Semitic = on the FBI's most wanted list (Score:5, Insightful)
ECONOMICALLY? How so? We alienate the arab nations, which control half the world's oil supply, in order to support a nation that has no oil whatsoever. We support Israel so much, in fact, that fully 1/3rd of their GDP is in the form of American aid. That's right, essentially one in three Israelis is living off of American handouts. How does this provide the USA with an economic benefit?
No, there are reasons that we support Israel, but money ain't one of them. We support Israel because of the holocaust. After WWII, the Allies decided that because of the horrors the Jewish people had endured (not only at the hands of the Nazis, but throughout their history), Israel would be turned over to them. Because we made that commitment, we back them. The second reason is suicide bombing. The Israelis may commit military actions which are of dubious morality (at best), but they've never sent in suicide bombers, or taken actions with no strategic value whatsoever. The third reason is historical. The arab nations in the middle east attacked Israel repeatedly without provocation. Each defeat has made them more and more hostile. Between terrorist actions like the slaughter of the Israeli Olympic team and wars of agression from the First Arab-Israeli War onward, it's easy to be sympathetic to Israel.
Re:Anti-Semitic = on the FBI's most wanted list (Score:3, Insightful)
Isreal doesn't use suicide bombers. Why send suicide bombers when you can send armed helicopters? On the other hand, if you lack the helicopters and pretty much any other means of modern warfare, suicide bombers are cheap and reliable means of getting at your targets. There is nothing inherantly evil about suicide bombers.
It's probably the bad choice of targets of these suicide bombers, that you want to point out as one of the reasons for supporting Israel. Well, both sides are guilty there: when Israel sends its helicopters against a town that supposedly harbors terrorists, and fires missiles into their homes, innocent civilians die. These aren't precision military bombings as some would suggest. The town is chosen for harboring terrorists but the people wounded and killed in these raids are not picked off carefully. In my opinion that is just as bad as a suicide bombing.
". Between terrorist actions like the slaughter of the Israeli Olympic team and wars of agression from the First Arab-Israeli War onward, it's easy to be sympathetic to Israel."
I'd rather say that it makes it easy to dislike the Arab states and the Palestines; it hasn't changed my dislike for certain Israeli practices. Israel (their current government and a large part of their people) has the same problem that the Palestine terrorists have: they are fanatics; i.e. they are bent on achieving their goals by whatever means necessary.
Re:Anti-Semitic = on the FBI's most wanted list (Score:3, Informative)
> We support Israel because of the holocaust.
Partially true, but why not support Armenia too, Rawanda or whatever.
> The arab nations in the middle east attacked Israel repeatedly without provocation.... it's easy to be sympathetic to Israel.
Well, it is if you have a one sided viewpoint. Read Chomsky, I'm not saying he's right, but there are other sides to it http://www.zmag.org
Re:Anti-Semitic = on the FBI's most wanted list (Score:4, Interesting)
And it is easy to make generalizations if one is unknowledgeable about the history of Palestine. I think you should read this [cactus48.com] in order to understand the roots of the present Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Keep this in mind: In the beginning of the 20th century only one person in 10 living in Palestine is a Jew. Now it is exactly reversed.
Put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinians: you have no american supplied F-16s, no Merkava tanks, no way of waging a Geneva Convention type war. How are you going to fight for your beliefs, your people and your history? Is it a wonder that the only way a desperate people can fight is through suicide bombings?
Please do not immediately label me an anti-semitic. I do not hate Jews, but I do deplore how the Israeli (and specially the Sharon) government's treatment of the Palestinian problem seems to mirror the way Hitler treated the Jewish problem. One has only to read Israeli newspapers to realize that many Israelis themselves are aware of these and actually criticize their own government.
I know many Jews here will agree with me. The problem with Israel is that it is not a nation of Israelis but a Jewish state. For as long as the Israeli government refuses to make itself into a truly representative, truly non-discriminatory nation it will continue to hold the entire world hostage to its ailment.
Re:Huh? -1 flaimbait! (Score:4, Insightful)
Every genious is supposed to be a little nuts.
Re:Huh? -1 flaimbait! (Score:2, Insightful)
But he's of Jewish descent. How in the world could he be anti-semetic.
I can understand a Jew possibly being against whats going on in Palestine. Not all of them could like it. But to basically become self-hating, I'm surprised he hasn't committed suicide yet.
The sins of the Fathers (Score:2)
~cHris
Re:anti-semitism (Score:2, Informative)
See this interview for examples:
http://www.chesstheory.de/fisher1.html
It is pretty clear from his interviews that he is an anti-semite, and that it has nothing to do with opposing Israel (which I am pretty sure he does).
Some people forget that Israel wasn't established to provide a safe home for the Jews as we like to believe. It was mainly established because Europe at the time wanted to get rid of the Jews and did not wish to give back all the property that was confiscated by the Nazis. They seemed to decide that it was better to push the Jew "problem" on to someone else.
Well compared to the US... (Score:2)
Re:Why is this story... (Score:2)
I do too. I got all excited when I saw that mini-hoover icon...
mod parent up (Score:2)
At worst it is an example of hate.
Hounded by the US govenment all his life (Score:2, Interesting)
Note for example that he is still being hounded for the sin of visiting Yugoslavia!
Bobby Fischer is a jerk and always was one, and his remark is typical. But I can see why he hates the American government.
As to "anti-semitic", its a word people like to throw around a lot. In this case it says more about the accuser than the accused. Even Arabs are often referred to as "anti-semitic"! I guess that's why they become suicide bombers... they hate themselves.
Re:anti semetic? (Score:5, Insightful)
Like when turkey denies the 1.5 million armenians that were killed in the armenian holocaust? Nobody seems to flich.
Re:anti semetic? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's who he is, you don't write about someone and neglect who they are. Do you write about hitler and not mention he hated jews?
No, you most certainly do write about someone and neglect some details, given the topic at hand. It's completely appropriate to neglect the fact that Hitler hated Jews when discussing his economic policies or military decisions in the same way that it's appropriate to neglect the fact that Fischer is an anti-Semite when discussing chess strategies or one of many other topics.
Now, this article is a historical summary and the anti-Semitism is rather pertinent. I probably would have been upset if the authors had left it out but only because that detail pertains to the topic at hand--not because I think Fischer is a "hate-breeding mongrel."
I can probably find a point of disagreement with anybody I know. Does that mean I have to mention that fact every time I write about them?
Disclaimer: I don't agree with Fischer's views on Jews, either. That doesn't mean that I get to slap "ANTI-SEMITE" across anything he's said/done and subsequently ignore it.
Re:anti semetic? (Score:3, Insightful)
Given that a huge part of the sudden return to economic prosperity Germany achieved after 1933 was from Hitler's seizures of Jewish property and bank accounts, no, I don't think you can neglect the fact that Hitler hated Jews when discussing his economic policies.
I see your point; it just happens that these two particular things are not independent.
Re:anti semetic? (Score:3, Insightful)
Given that a huge part of the sudden return to economic prosperity Germany achieved after 1933 was from Hitler's seizures of Jewish property and bank accounts, no, I don't think you can neglect the fact that Hitler hated Jews
You might want to go and check your history books again. The German economic recovery of the 1930's was brought about by deficit spending and huge public works schemes like the autobahns. Very similar to Roosevelts policies in the US. The difference was that much of the Reich's spending went on military equipment, which doesn't provide for long term growth.
Ultimately, the seized property of Jews was totally insignificant to German economic recovery. In fact, the loss of Jewish capital and professionals was more likely a hindrance to economic recovery.
Chris
Re:anti semetic? (Score:2)
Re:anti semetic? (Score:2)
"He described Jews as "thieving, lying bastards. They made up the Holocaust."
The irony is clear: His mother was Jewish and so was Nemenyi, the man described by some as his father."
He certainly seems racist -no i'm not going to use the special word that some people like to use just for those of semtic descent - racism is racism.
Re:anti semetic? (Score:5, Insightful)
They are
"Then just 30 years later pol pot is commit genocide of an unprecedented scale in combodia but no one gives a good god damn cuase they are just some broke ass asians."
Because we got our asses kicked in that part of the world trying to do them a favor (we entered vietnam at south vietnams request).
Check your history, America isn't the worlds police. We don't go around saving everyone, it's their job to save themselves. We don't have to "give a shit", but if you would like us too then I suggest you give us a reason to "give a shit" by not strapping bombs to your chest and going kamakazi through grocery stores and bus stations.
Re:anti semetic? (Score:2)
Hahahahahah, dream on dude.
Check your history, America isn't the worlds police. We don't go around saving everyone, it's their job to save themselves.
LOL, you speak as if you personally went to sort out things in Afghanistan (at their request of course). We don't go around saving everyone, we go around saving ourselves and protecting our interests. Anyone who says otherwise is either misinformed or incredibly naieve.
Re:anti semetic? (Score:3)
When attempting to win his country's independence from the authoritarian French colonists, Ho Chi Min wrote a declaration of independence, patterned after the USA's, and appealed to the USA for help. Rebuffed, he decided that maybe the USA's system of government wasn't so great after all and maybe he'd just go communist. At this point, the USA said "Oh no you don't!" and decided it was appropriate to intervene in the region.
Some help.
Re:anti semetic? (Score:3, Interesting)
Plenty of borders were made up by colonials, by drawing lines on a map. Yet somehow this is only a big issue with Palestine.
Palestinians are ARABS, they have always been ARABS and just because Arabs set up camp in a area and name themselves after it doesn't make it a nation.
But if a group of Europeans set up camp in an area then it suddenly becomes a nation? Sounds rather a racist position.
Re:One question though... (Score:2, Funny)