Generation Wrecked 1667
Ryosen writes "Fortune magazine has an interesting article discussing how members of Generation X (those born between 1966 and 1975) have been damaged by the fall of the economy and the life-long ramifications of the dot.com boom-bust, stating 'No generation since the Depression has been set up for failure like this.' Particularly disturbing is the statement 'Worse yet, for some Gen Xers, their peak earning years are behind them. Buried in college and credit card debt, a lot of them won't be able to catch up as they approach their prime spending years.'
Are the best years of our lives truly behind us?"
not sure i agree.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Didion Sprague's Take on Gen X (Score:3, Interesting)
She doesn't have a dime saved. Everything she spends comes from Riley the boyfriend (a Gen-X'r who dropped out several liberal arts colleges, got a short story published when he was hosteling around Europe, and now has such a severe case of Writer's Block (a fear that he can't reproduce his single success) that he and Sister Reba spend all their money just 'trying to have fun.'
I think they live in a perpetual state of 'recapturing their youth.'
It's sad. I've saved nearly everything, and not long ago loaned Sister Reba a thousand bucks to pay off the last of her college debts. But her credit rating is ruined.
Yet the two of them -- Sister Reba and Riley -- continually talk about the 1970's like they were the best thing in the world. Riley tells me about the movies that changed his life -- Saturday Night Fever, Apocalypse Now, the Deer Hunter -- and swears that at even at age 33 he's still got a good novel inside of him -- somewhere.
Not long ago Riley was reading Jonathon Franzen's _Corrections_ and was so enraged that Franzen had written *his* novel, that he pitched it at one of the plate glass windows in their townhouse. The window shattered, the super won't foot the bill, and now their even deeper in debt.
Me, I know what's what. Or at least I think I do.
If those wacko islamicists are targetting the economy like they say they are, then I know what I have to do. I have to save, save, save. I have to prepare for the day when the power goes out for good and there's no more water coming out of the tap.
It scares me, and I'm only 16.
But Sister Reba and Riley? Fuck it. They could care less. They work at their dumb jobs all days just to pay off their credit cards.
We're screwed, my friends (Score:5, Interesting)
Andrea Tinker, professor of Social Gerontology at King's College, London recently published the results of research into the way that the changing age distribution of the population is affecting different generations. Her conclusion is that today's under 30s are the first generation who can expect lower living standards than their parents. In this writeup, I will present some British demographic statistics, and my own hypothesis as to the underlying reason for Professor Tinker's conclusion.
Fewer children are being born: 91 live births per 1000 women in 1961, dropping to only 55 in 2000. In the 25-29 age group, the drop is even more dramatic, from 178/1000 in 1961 to 95/1000 in 2000.
It is clear that the trend is towards fewer taxpayers supporting more pensioners. I believe that this is no coincidence, rather that the generation(s) born since 1970 were systematically and deliberately set up by the policy makers of the so-called "baby boomer" generation.
They set up a system for healthcare and pensions under which taxation is immediately paid out to recipients, rather than being invested for growth and the purchase of an annuity in a real pension system. They did this at a time when they knew that their own contributions would be minimal, given the population's age distribution at the time. Quite cynically, they decided that it would be easier to levy punitive taxation on their own children and grandchildren than invest for their own futures.
The money they saved by doing so, they poured into the housing market, driving up prices and placing mortgages out of the reach of many first time buyers. This created massive inflation in property prices - almost 20%/year at present - which they benefitted immensely from, already being owners of at least one property.
The state education system has been systematically wrecked. Grammar schools and the Assisted Places Scheme which sponsored children to attend fee-paying schools have been abolished, as the baby boomers further try to pull the ladder up after themselves. These same baby boomers, who once swore never to trust anyone over 30, are now in positions of responsibility and have carefully structured corporations to ensure that today's under 30s cannot enjoy privileges such as a job-for-life that the baby boomers enjoyed. They are scrapping defined-benefits pension schemes, after making sure that they got them for themselves, at the expense of those currently paying into employer's pension funds - us.
We are also paying the price for their disasterous social experiments. Soaring crime rates and falling literacy rates originate in the pseudo-liberal ideals of the baby boomers, who knew that they would escape scot free while their children and grandchildren would pick up the pieces for them. Rather than being the unfortunate result of a well-intentioned experiment than didn't work out, it is indicative of the baby boomer's defining attitudes: firstly, that nothing matters to them more than instant gratification, and secondly that they will never have to face any consequences for their actions.
What can we do? It may be too late; huge damage has already been done to the economic and social fabric of our country. The only hope is that when those of us born since 1970 are in power, that we use that power wisely: to ensure that not a penny of our our generation's money is wasted on or by those that came before us. Let them live on the pensions that they knowingly intended for us, with the standards of healthcare and accomodation that they intended for us, and let us invest our own money in our own future and our own children.
Edit: Worse, for untrained webmasters (Score:3, Interesting)
For people with a bachelor's who are willing to continually learn, and stick with companies with a sound business plan, things will be a little tight, but they will get through.
Of course, my version isn't as dramatic, and makes people take responsibility for their careers.
Re:Over for you maybe. (Score:2, Interesting)
Anyway, yeah. Tried to play it smart, no debt, ok job, used car, couple months of salary saved up just in case. 15% going into the 403(b) pre-tax. I'm getting stocks at a bargain right now. I've got 25 years min before retirment. As long as my paycheck keeps clearing, a low stock market is a good thing for me.
Re:Over for you maybe. (Score:4, Interesting)
What the heck are you doing in an appartment? You are pissing away your rent every month. If you owned a home, then you would get a tax break (one of the few left). If you have the means to save 8 months of salary, then you should be able to afford a home. My God the interest rates are rock bottom now. What are you waiting for?
At least consider a condo. I would still get a house though...
You are in the minority (Score:2, Interesting)
But also don't rent for too long - its a suckers racket. Buying and owning a house is the best way to protect yourself in the very long run.
Employer Greed (Score:2, Interesting)
For instance, I just got done working at this computer service based business in where I was making 36k/year. I'm worth 55k/year and when hired was told that "it would be no problem" if I were motivated, etc. I quit when I found out that the max anyone makes there at the company was 36k, heh. I was there for 2 years.
Well, the charges that we were giving customers was insane. If it was after hours and on a weekend, they were being charged like $400 an hour for computer service. Granted it was pry to fix one or two of their servers or something but still, that's some serious income for the company and yet I get to see none.
No tech jobs I find want to start anyone much above what I was making and most are lying to me about what I could potentially make at the company. There's a whole slew of $8/hour jobs around me, especially if I want to go into the food service field.
Re:Sad truth is that (Score:2, Interesting)
Failing skill set (Score:3, Interesting)
At that point not only was my skill set the same as the other 50,000 people out there applying to every small position that cropped up for half the pay it used to be, I had a failed company on my resume. An emergency change of my skillset from web to video games is all that kept me from going back to salaries I was making in 1997-8.
Re:Thank GOD I was born in 1976! (Score:5, Interesting)
$100,000 by 32???? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Over for you maybe. (Score:5, Interesting)
houses arent that great of investments, and unless you are sure you are going to be in it for 5-10 years, you will get screwed.
and this housing market is as nuts as the 2000 stock market.
me, i'm a gunna wait until all those foreclosure sales start happening next spring.
Re:Their 'peak' isn't here yet (Score:5, Interesting)
If the average baby-boomer works until age 75, the retirement will start at 1946 + 75 = 2020 and will hit its peak ten years later as the mode of the baby boom hits retirement age. If you feel like waiting until 2030, more power to you.
Here in Canada (Score:4, Interesting)
As a matter of fact I am looking forward to the Baby Boomers retiring because I will be able to secure a government (Municipal, Provincial or Federal) job position that will last me till the retirement and will pay above average wage for the next 25-30 years. Plus the pension benefits are insane. I don't need to contribute to my pension plan for the rest of my life once I get me one of those jobs.
fall of the economy? (Score:3, Interesting)
The economy right now is far stronger than it was 10 years ago. That was 1992. The economy right now is far stronger than it was 20 years ago. That was 1982. From the perspective of someone born in 1966-1975, how has the economy fallen?
bullshit (Score:3, Interesting)
And if you think you are doomed by your age to a lifetime of finanical failure, just look at Colonel Sanders: he was basically broke until he started KFC when he was 65 years old!
I don't want to be a polyanna or say I've never had or seen setbacks -- my gf was un/under-employed for a year -- but to just write off a whole generation in Fortune just seems like a sack of Baby Boomer sour grapes bullshit.
Lots of Good Signs Too (Score:2, Interesting)
These are just a few examples of how things aren't as bad as they seem for Xers (I was born in 72).
Short-sighted media (Score:3, Interesting)
The media seems to have vision problems beyond myopia...it also seems hindsight-impaired. In all of the press, I don't see the dot-com bust blaming the Y2K budget bubble at all. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe I've a perspective unique to Tech Support.
The IT and Software Development industries were overbudgeted by 300-500% in many companies from 1998 to 2000. A company I worked for in 1999 had perhaps 1000 employees, but had around 100 developers and IT staff working full-time on Y2K and Y2K+1 calendar-related issues. Once the Y2K problems were gone, many COBOL, Foxpro, and other programmers were out of work. The bloated IT budgets in companies saw *lots* of contractors and regular employees alike seeking other jobs in the summer of 2000.
Many companies were created just to handle Y2K issues. Others were started to try to soak up some of the money being thrown around that was left over after Y2K didn't soak up all of the budget.
And let's face it, the United States was getting excited about technology. The first wave of real computer consumerism happened when Windows 95 was released and coincided with Intel working the bugs out of its Pentium chips.. This wave lasted about 1.5 years. The second wave was around 1998-1999 and it came down in the year 2000 when people were sick and tired of hearing about Y2K and how all of the computers were going to blow up. After the computers didn't end up blowing up and consumers realized they had computers fast enough for solitaire and email, the consumer frenzy stopped. Now you can except computer consumerism to coincide with Christmas and back-to-school shopping like many other industries.
Eventhough computer consumerism is not rampant and technology is no longer the big news in the U.S., the economy still seems doing alright in some industries:
US stats even worse (Score:5, Interesting)
In order to reasonably support the people expected to make social security claims over the next thirty years, taxes would have to be doubled at a minimum.
In other words, it is only a matter of time before social security breaks. The only things that can save are an incredible development in the economy that drastically increases real wealth in a short period of time, or massive immigration to increase the number of paying (but not deducting) parties by a huge amount. Its just turned into a pyramid scheme at this point, and that really is what drive most immigration policy.
generation W, not X (Score:4, Interesting)
The simple fact is that Generation X have had it better than any past generation in history, except for the baby boomer generation - the generation of negative unemployment, antibiotics without antibiotic resistence, reasonable housing prices, free Unis (well in Oz anyway), welfare without scrutiny, lifelong employement with long service leave & gold watches, etc, etc.
So what if the baby boomers had it so good, Xers should get some perpective & realise they are still better off than all the other previous generations.
& what's this with complaining about the fact that Xers were able to rort billions out of the community with the Y2K scare campaign & the dot.bomb pyramid schemes? So what that the party's over, they still made billions at the time, doing sweet FA of consequence.
Re:I was making $33,000 a year when I was 19 (Score:3, Interesting)
I moved back home with my parents, who weren't in great financial shape either. I ended up as a computer operator ($7/hour), and within a week I was a junior programmer @ $22k. Four years later I'm now making over $40k, which in my city, is well above average. The company is over 120 years old and I'm one of about 10 IT staff here--i.e., I have one of the most stable possible jobs in today's economy. I own a home now (parents/bro/sis live with me, not vice-versa). I'll be out of all debt (minus mortgage) by the end of spring. All I'm in debt now anyway are student loans (2 months to pay them off), and I'm about to put down a few thousand to do some major work with my home.
I personally have never wanted anything at ALL to do with my generation (I'm a '78'er). I've seen even friends end up as a wasted drain on society. They have no ambition, and their education sucks. The few who do try to make something of themselves are getting screwed lately. I got OUT of college at just the right time. A friend of mine stayed 2 more years and finished his CS degree. He went back home, and even two years later could still only find work as a help desk operator! This is in a major US city with a supposedly large tech job market. He's making a tiny bit over minimum wage.
Bfah.
Re:Employer Greed (Score:2, Interesting)
Not to sound cold hearted, but, your only worth what people are willing to pay you. If a company can fill the job you want by paying 36k a year instead of your 55k a year, why pay more? Perhaps you have more skills/knowledge/experience, but if the company feel the extra money is worth what you can bring, then thats it.
GenX--Living up to the "whiners" sterotype (Score:5, Interesting)
See http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/Timeline.htm
Unemployment in 1933 was 24.9. 24.9 percent!!! GNP dropped 8.5 percent in 1931 and 13.4 in 1932.
Unemployment is 6-7% and our GDP rose by 1.2% last quarter. We are not in any sort of hardship by any means. Hardship is not being able to eat. Not being able to afford a new PS2 is not hardship.
For example, look at the quote "Salesclerks became programmers; coffee slingers morphed into experts in Java (computerese, that is)" So basically the dot-com bubble burst and things are getting back into reality.
And I love this one: "Jessica, an art therapist and professional harpist, has $50,000 in student loans". Hmm, maybe racking up $50,000 in student loans for an unmarketable degree was not a good idea. Who would have thought?
It's life, whatever it is (Score:3, Interesting)
Me? I'm a dot bomb casualty. I went from ISP tech support, to roving infosec software installer/trainer, to high-end VPN design in the space of three years, then was summarily kicked to the curb with about enough money to keep myself around comfortably through 6 months of unemployment. I've got zero credit card debt (mostly because I've never liked borrowing money in the first place) and no student loan debt (thankfully, my mother works for a school). I look at it as if I got taken on a 3 year ride with people who paid for my crap, and the ride came to an end, time to find something else to do. =)
I don't save alot, because I don't make alot. I do consulting work with my father, because he's too busy to do it all himself. I live in the nice apartment that's attatched to my father's office (he used to live here until he got remarried, and the rent is VERY inexpensive), and the rent and utilities get paid with a few hundred bucks every couple-few weeks depending on the vagaries of the small-scale consulting biz. I don't live large because I've never really lived large. My one real vice, video games, gets some money, with plenty left over for food and the like. My gf is a grad student finishing up her doctorate, so she's got more than a few loans, and that's made us consider any wedding plans alot more carefully, but it isn't going to be overwhelming. No, it certainly won't be a walk in the park, but I've got plenty of reason to believe that things are going to be better. =)
my experience (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, during that time I made videos seen by millions, got my picture in hundreds of newspapers and magazines, got to work with the ultra-cool Slashdot guys and a Net superstar who was on David Letteman, videos were in NY MOMA exhibit, flew around the country on crazy business deals that mainly never happened, friend of mine purchased warship, acquired stomach acid problem from crazy business deals, multicasted video over satellites (twice now), and got married in castle.
Now I just need to chill out at my 9-5 job... whew! At least I have something to tell my (future) children about.
Flawed assumptions by Boomers (Score:5, Interesting)
However, many of us did go to college because it was a basic requirement to get a decent job. The Boomers got the same jobs without going to college. Here's the difference - we have to pay $50,000 up front to enter the job market where the Boomers got in for free. As a result, we can't save early enough for interest to compound and work in our favor. It used to be that parents paid for their child's college education but the Boomers have figured out that divorce works for them at the cost of their children's future irrevocably damaged. I am not knocking divorce. Some people genuinely need it. It is, however, a symptom of some sort of selfishness (i.e. adultery, substance abuse, gambling, spousal abuse, etc.) by making yourself feel good - however temporary - at the expense of others.
I'm a 33 year old GenXer with two kids. I have no credit card debt. My wife drives a '93 Lumina and I an '89 Civic. We have massive payments on student loans. We have a mortgage on a $60,000 condo. There was no freakin' way we could have saved $100,000 by now. She's a teacher and I'm a CAD technician. I am sick of people on this site telling us it's our fault we won't have enough for retirement. It's not. The rules have changed and we're trying to adapt to them the best we can.
Meanwhile the Boomers are threatening to break into the Social Security "lockbox". Our money, not theirs. Theirs is already guaranteed. Boomers aren't called the "Me" Generation for nothing.
Ach, I'm rambling and venting and none of it matters.
Re:Sad truth is that (Score:3, Interesting)
Are you sure about that? I'm 30, but doing better than ever. After several years of pulling in maybe ~$20k per year, I finally finished college and got a better-paying job. It doesn't pay what your average dot-com job did, but it's fairly secure, it's easy 8-to-5 work, and it's plenty to live reasonably well in this market. I have no student loans to pay back, and I'm paying down credit cards at a faster rate than before. Once those debts are gone, I should be able to squirrel some of it away for the future. I'd also like to sell the one-bedroom condo and buy a house...a garage would be nice for working on my '77 Olds (no longer my primary transportation, since the new job is paying for a new truck). If you don't have unrealistic expectations for your future (a big house, a 6-car garage full of sports cars, and a vacation home in the Caribbean by 25 would be considered by most to be unrealistic), there's no reason to be pessimistic about the long term.
The only dark cloud I see is if Social Security continues on its present course. I'd recommend not counting on it being there 30-40 years from now, as the current crop of old farts will bleed it dry. The country's only legal Ponzi scheme is collapsing. Start saving for your retirement, and keep bugging your congressman and senators for Social Security reform. (Privatization would be a Good Thing. The AARP will fight against it denture-and-nail, but staying on the present course will end in bankruptcy in a decade or two.)
One more thing: the "Generation X" label sucks. I've never cared much for it...the media has tied the image of pot-smoking skateboarding slackers to it, but I doubt that that applies to any but a small group of people in their late-20s-to-mid-30s.
Exercise some common sense... (Score:3, Interesting)
This sounds more like an excuse. Running up credit card debit is careless and stupid in any economy. If the NASDAQ and Dow are way up, you're still capable of screwing yourself.
Re:Sad truth is that (Score:5, Interesting)
Even if you accept the idea of age 64 as retirement, this statement is bogus, because if you consider that someone is done with college at age 22 they have worked 10 years at age 32 and have 32 working years before retirement at age 64, so they are only about 1/4 of the way through their working years.
Re:Sad truth is that (Score:2, Interesting)
Poor, poor Gen Xer's. They have just now entered into the best investment period of their lives, and they are whining about it. I was born just a few years too early to be called Gen X, but since I totally wasted 8 years after high school, I guess I still qualify finanically as a Gen Xer.
I started making an real income (over 16k) just 8 years ago, and I already have $40K saved for retirement, between stocks, 401K, and a ROTH account. Every year I increase my income by 5 to 8% and expect to continue to do so for the forseeable future. I truely can't say when my "best earning years" will be, but it sure wasn't the last few. More likely it will be the last few before I retire.
I have a feeling this year and maybe 2003 will be the years that I make my best investments, though. As they say, buy low and sell high. Since I'm not planning to retire for the next 20 years or so, I want to be able to buy stocks for as little as possible. Thank God for the market crash! The market is a Bargin right now.
I hope that it stays low for 10 years or so, then we have a repeat of the '90's beginning, oh say around 2012. I'll be filthy, stinking rich by the time I retire.
Oh, yeah. By the way, all those folks who live in nice apartments in the city, lease a new sports car every three years, and spent thier 20's and 30's in the clubs every Friday and Saturday night, I hope you enjoy your memories, because that's where your retirement money went.
- jdbear
Numbers don't add up. (Score:3, Interesting)
Someone help me understand why those numbers don't seem to work. If someone has $2mil saved with an 8% return, they're pulling $160,000 per year pre-taxes or about $105,000 net. $7.3 mil should give you over $380,000 after tax income. Even if we correct for 5% inflation, it only takes $5 mil in savings to keep an income of $100k.
It just seems that these figures, like every other number in the article, were set artificially high.
Re:Sad truth is that (Score:4, Interesting)
It is fun and easy to make judgements about people you have never met.
Yes, everyon that has lost ther jobs in the IT sector in the past several years is one of those people that learned html, etc whatever. All 400,000 of them make me sick!
Plus, we've got ours, right? I make 150K a year so leave me out of any thoughts of bad things. Fuck everyone below me.
Wait this sounds more like baby boomers than Gen-X's. Show me your birth certificate! I think you shall be removed from our generation.
Re:Over for you maybe. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:This ticks me off (Score:3, Interesting)
Companies use it to accumulate mass quantities of resumes, which they keyword search. This is common, from my understanding. There are jobs, right, but it's literally a snowball/hell chance level.
I just graduated from college, oh, about 18 months ago. Been looking for a stable job since; the few seasonal jobs I've gotten since have paid bills and past-due notices on student loans and extortion-level car-insurance rates, but savings has been tough to accumulate.
Finding a job is a networking thing now. You got to find someone who knows someone. Which is how . .
The job I did get was taken away because they forgot to look at their budget before hiring someone. It was replacing someone who was promoted into a vacated position. So the total number of additional personel: -1 in an office of about 20. Times are tough 'round here.
The mayor said when the country has an economic cold, Rockford gets pnumonia. Cheesy, but seems to be true.
this article is not about gen-x'ers whining! (Score:5, Interesting)
several people have summarized this story as being about gen-x'ers whining. but it isn't. it is about a baby boomer who wrote a story and tried their best to make gen-x seem worse than their genreation. really, how many gen-xers read fortune in comparison to their other readers? their target demo is not gen-x but baby boomers. this is an article to make the baby boomers feel better, "Look how great we are compared to these damn kids." does anyone REALLY think that our best earning years are over? no. not a chance.
it's not gne-xers whining, its baby boomers looking for a story.
Re:Over for you maybe. (Score:2, Interesting)
1929 stock market crash and ensuing depression are perfect examples why so-called 'high fliers' suck. The economy (and the market) crashed because people -- mainly (paper) rich people -- overborrowed on stock market margin buys, overpriced equities, etc. When the bubble burst, they defaulted on their debts and caused the banks to fall apart. (Of course, the banks were hugely at fault for loaning them unsecured credit in the first place.)
Sound familiar? Same thing that's happening from the
I'm actually pretty happy to hear 'Dow 6000' predictions. I'll make out like a bandit on the way back up. And if my parents take some hits from it, I'll support them, because I love them.
The fool Boomers who went after 'things' instead of caring for their kids will probably end up poor and alone; but they earned it through their own choices and actions. They better hope those religious charities they disparaged for so long keep doing well so they have free soup at least!
Re:Over for you maybe. (Score:2, Interesting)
Depends on your region, and even then, housing bubbles don't really exist unless you bought a $10 million dollar mansion with tacky customized features that nobody wants, much less can afford. If an average house in SF costs $400K, it's not going to drop by very much even if a bubble bursts. Maybe down as far as $375K briefly, but in the end you still have the sticks and bricks of the house and the scarce land it's on, so the value will tend to remain. Stocks don't have a fixed scarcity, so they can evaporate. In short, if you stay around the middle of the road, you won't lose on a house even if you sell within a few years.
houses arent that great of investments, and unless you are sure you are going to be in it for 5-10 years, you will get screwed.
Let's say I buy a house for $200K in 2000 and sell it for the same $200K in 3 years. Assuming 6% in realtor costs ($12K) plus 2% misc costs ($4k), I've gotten "screwed" by 16K in closing costs which they will deduct from the selling price, so the bank will only get $184K, of which I've only paid down to $190K, so I owe them 6K (total, $22K). For a 30 year note at 6.75% plus some taxes and insurance my payments would be around $1600/mth. For the first three years, about $1000/mth of this would be interest, which can be deducted from fed taxes at probably the 27% bracket = $270/mth * 36mths = $9720. So, our $22K loss is now $22000 - 9720 = $12280. This averages a net outlay of $341 over the 36 months to live in a home of your own. If that is getting screwed, sign me up...
Now, to compare, let's rent a modest house or large apartment, which would cost around $1500/mth * 36mths = $54,000. None of this is deductable, and you get nothing back when you move out.
True, renting is nice when you are unsure of where you'll be next year and don't want to risk holding two house notes at a time, but according to a book I read (Home Buying for Dummies, I think. Don't laugh, it's a really good book!) homeowners on average have 20-40 times the net worth of lifetime renters.
The computer is my friend (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Sad truth is that (Score:1, Interesting)
Never fell into the
I also never went in debt, thinking that it is a bad way to live live - owing somebody else money. I bought the toys I wanted to buy, bought the books I wanted to buy, and rented the house I wanted to rent.
What finally got to me is realizing that I was a slave to government. Not having any debt or wife(s) or children, I was their money cow. Every paycheck I would get pissed off, seeing how much I was not getting. I saw a great quote somewhere that said: "the only way not to pay an income tax is to have no income". So, I quit, and have no income. (And don't bother with the anti-patriotic malarchy - look at every bill you pay and everything you buy and find out the taxes you are paying outside of income, and tell me they don't have enough).
Well, that was fun.
On bitterness towards the successful w/o degrees (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm reading alot of whining from those with college-degrees complaining about how those who didn't go to college were able to be as successful as those who did. Now these so-called "educated" types are expressing satisfaction that those who didn't have this education are getting what they deserve. Let me tell you why this is the wrong attitude.
First off, "higher-education" is just another business out to make money. Colleges market by convincing us that we'll never amount to anything unless we shell $40k for an "education."
Second of all, college-degrees are simply how our society enforces an unofficial cast-system. Yes, its true. The only degrees of any measurable worth are from universities oriented for people who come from wealthy families and can put 100% of their life into school. To rest of us, people who aren't supported 100% from mommy and daddy and actually have to work for a living, this so called education is out of reach for us. As long as companies continue to discriminate based on degrees, this ensures the wealthy stay wealthy, and the lower classes stay were they are.
As for student loans, this is a very risky gamble. There is no guarantee that after taking out such a loan that one will magically find a high-paying job to justify the time and money spent on the education. Also, student aid and loans usually don't provide enough to pay for school, books *and* that person's cost of living expenses. Usually, people who take this path still have to work at least part time to support themselves at an extremely modest (i.e. poor) life style. It is not possible to complete a degree in only four years this way. It could take as long as 8-10 years for a bacheler's degree in many fields. Who wants to live the life style of a starving-student for that long if there are better ways?
Is it fair that someone with a degree is paid more than someone without one given all other circumstances are equal? I don't think so. People should pay a person because of their ability do a task at hand, not because of so-called past accomplishments that are irrelevent to the job. Its no different than paying a man more than a woman because of gender, or paying a white man more than a black man because of race. How long is our society going to tolerate this kind of discrimination?
Most degrees are just stupid anyway. Degrees in art? History? Foreign language majors? Come on people! The only people who *need* college degrees are doctors, lawyers and other fields where that rigorous training is justified. Everyone else jumping on the college-bandwagon only depreciates the value of degrees by saturation.
Finally, don't be bitter towards someone because they found a better to get where you are without sacrificing 4-8 years of their life and getting themselves $20-40k in debt. If anything, they should be rewarded more than you because they were smart enough to find a better way.
an OG X'r (Score:1, Interesting)
Before anyone says my expectations are too high - i have lowered my salary demands from 80 to 40... still too much? You might not say so if you knew what I have done for a living.
I am begining to see the age discrimination that everyone talks about... of course it won't bother you if your in your 20's...
Every job apply to as terminology designed to screen out people that could do the work. Keyword screening is more of a problem than some people here will admit.
So you might say... why don't you apply for jobs in your field? I do, but I am one of a thousand applicants for a job. Should I forgo engineering work for janitorial work? I certainly can't get an interview in a related tech field due to the keyword screening going on.
Some people here appear to think that there is never a problem that can't be directly blamed on an individual. Sometimes it is the individuals fault... sometimes not... and sometimes its a combination.
Try to keep in mind that there are plenty of people that love technology(didn't get in it for the money) and are getting screwed by the economy and circumstance beyond thier control...
Re:Lost bullshit education, work hard (Score:2, Interesting)
Anywho what I really wanted to respond to was about the whole population thing. Declining populations suck for social security but it is an inherently flawed system anyway. You advocate propping it up by having more children? The fact of the matter is the world IS overpopulated. Granted, much of the excess is in the areas least prepared to deal with it whereas europe and the US are seeing population declines or stasis.
What I am trying to say is economic growth is not the meaning of life. Which I suppose is a typical view of many of my peers as we have not made the sacrifices the author of the fortune article advocate. Quality of life in the now seems to be more important than wealth or security.
I was born in 1968 (Score:2, Interesting)
When I got my BA in '91 the career counselor told me and my buddy that there were two alternatives, go to grad school or leave the country. There were no jobs including her own. She was being dismissed as part of budget cuts at the time. My buddy went to Japan and I went to grad school.
A few years later with a Master's degree there were still no jobs so I left the country as well. I'm still outside the country almost ten years later and I only go back for Christmas vacation.
Of the friends that stayed in the States, a surprising number are already dead. My brother born in '74 finally landed a teaching job a few years ago, but it's not clear how stable it is and he's got two kids.
Out of all my cousins only a few made big bucks and the only way they made it was hustling in the worst way. I'm talking backstabbing salespeople types. There is a total lack of people who just had normal career lives among family members in my generation. It has been either balls out money or jack shit. Education seems to be meaningless. The price of your school means everything, but the degree is nothing except perhaps a shot at a part time teaching gig at best.
I do think people in my generation were trapped by circumstances. Those who made it didn't make it simply by being good citizens and playing by the rules and most of the people I know don't have shit and have little chance of ever making it work out.
I think the part that surprises me the most is that there isn't more outright hostility than there already is. Probably now that we're riding down the back side of the distraction of the IP bubble we'll start to see some more active participation --cough-- in social affairs by members of this generation.
Re:Thank GOD I was born in 1976! (Score:2, Interesting)
This is a result of the myth of higher education (Score:2, Interesting)
Back before the Baby boomers went to University, a Degree just about guaranteed you a good job. Experts where few and Business needed them.
But then more and more people started to go to university, and the number of experts increased and increased, but businesses didn't need more experts.
At first governments, and other public institutions took the extra in. (Including the Universities themselves) but the number of Graduates continued to increases.
This is all fueled by the myth that higher education is the only or best way to get ahead in life. And that is simply not the case.
The educational path to success is very appealing to some, it is a relatively straightforward and clear path. Grade school, High School, University, Great career. As opposed to the alternative. Grade school, High School, Bust your ass working hard, continue to try new things, fail, learn from failure, (repeat), great career (eventually).
It doesn't help that all though grade school and high school, your told that the only way to succeed is to graduate with great grades for am good University. (And also being told that the people that make it without all the education are just lucky, and or that it just doesn't work that way any more.)
The fact is that with so many going to University there are not enough expert positions, and that only the Top students in the Top schools are getting the good jobs. The rest end up and an equal playing field with the people who didn't go (But worked hard and smart).
This whole thing will turn around once people start to realize that there is no guaranteed path to success and that you need to make your own way in life.
This article is crap (Score:2, Interesting)
My translation of most of the people quoted in the story:
"Um, yeah, like I've been working for like ten years ya know and went clubbing every nite, bought every cool high-tech piece of shit I could find on credit, instead of ya know paying down my school loans and like buying a house. Now like I've got like ya know tons of credit card bills and I have ya know big school loans. I like can't understand how it happened dude."
And this classic:
"Dude, I'm so clever because I'm deferring my huge undergrad loan while I rack up more debt for my hot-shit MBA..."
Re:Generation W (Score:4, Interesting)
This is assuming that you are white, male, middle class, straight, and professional.
But for those of us without that priviliege life and society is far better than the 50s. Things like civil rights, women's lib, the G.I. bill, and advances medical knowledge have led to an increase in quality of life. Perhaps not much has changed technological, which I doubt, but the changes in society and attitude are staggering and take an incredible narrow mindset to overlook. Also factories today bear very little resemblance to factories of the 50s, for one far less people are needed to staff them.
Actually changes in the economics and population of medival Europe brought down feudalism, and pikes and bows were the revolutionary weapon of the time, not guns. With a pike formation you can easily break a cavalry charge and a properly trained user of the English long bow could kill a knight in plate armor.
I as a member of the so called Generation Y am not living the life of my mother or father. I have grown up with different social norms and expectations. Don't discount the progress of the last 50 years because you are convinced that the next 50 years will bring neat sci-fi toys.