Microsoft Invests in the University of Waterloo 785
saforrest writes "Say goodbye to independent academia. In a presentation by Microsoft on Wednesday at the University of Waterloo, a new joint initiative was announced which involves the addition of a mandatory course on C# for all electrical and computer engineers. 'Completion of this course
will be mandatory for students entering the E&CE
program.'" Microsoft's press release is available.
Academic Integrity (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Academic Integrity (Score:2, Flamebait)
Re:Academic Integrity (Score:2, Informative)
(.RTF version [www.feds.ca])
Re:Academic Integrity (Score:5, Insightful)
Beyond the fact that C# isn't by any stretch the best language to teach concerning the basics of computer programming (and as such is a disservice to the students at large), this also sets a horrible prescident. Maybe Putnam can buy this U a new administrative building and get a new mandatory lit class added -- "Lit 203 -- The Works of Tom Clancy"
Re:Academic Integrity (Score:2, Interesting)
Billy boy went over to Cambridge a while back and gave them an enormous grant. Microsoft and the Computer Science department now work very much hand in hand (in a great new campus building), but the emphasis seems to be that Microsoft benefits from the research being done by the CS lab, and gives it a practical channel to reach mainstream audiences.
Before that, Olivetti Research had a lot to do with the CS lab and a lot of that was very fruitful too (see WinVNC [att.com] for an example).
One of my old supervisors and a nut on language theory went to Microsoft when they came to Cambridge and has had much success turning his research into practice. The underlying language model of .NET has influences from the academic research done at the University (and of course from elsewhere).
Point is, partnership between academia and business can work very well, and if taking a measly class in a language that actually implements excellent OO constructs and principles as part of a computer or engineering course causes people upset, I really think they need to reassess their thoughts on the purpose of those courses. Especially since such a partnership might subsidise the costs of going to college, which is borderline prohibitivein the US. I've seen so many people claiming to know OO that are clueless on the topic and whose code is so very confused that I suspect OO teachers don't understand the principles properly.
I had to rely on Modula 3 and a couple of other languages, and abstract language theory. Hardly practical, but at the time there was no language that elegantly encompassed the teachings. I ended up working with Smallworld's Magik language which had no decent IDE, but which implements some excellent OO principles. C# is the first mainstream language to really cleanly implement these things. Java's not bad, but it's just not clean.
I have my reservations about some of Microsoft's business practices, but people need to see that there is also a good side to Microsoft, and C# is just one excellent example of that.
Hrm... (Score:2, Funny)
Nooooooo! (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah well, at least my old Physics department is underfunded (wait... RIM is investing $150 million in a new Physics research institute @ the U of Waterloo? DOH!)
Waterloo always had close ties with industry. Now they appear to have an umbilical cord.
Re:Nooooooo! (Score:5, Informative)
No such requirements are present in the Computer Science program.
Re:Nooooooo! (Score:2, Insightful)
What makes me sad is that they are forcing a mandatory course of C#. It is not that I do not like C# because I do. What makes me sad is that now students will HAVE to get specific tools and environments. Those that like other environments will be shafted. Ok there is C# on LINUX, but lets be real, will you be able to get graded on projects created on UNIX, that do not have an easy to open project folder? Not likely...
When we learned programming we did it with languages that showed specific concepts and were neutral. I guess those days are gone!
At least C# is (probably) useful (Score:3, Funny)
Re:At least C# is (probably) useful (Score:3, Insightful)
Learning languages currently being marketed by corporations is stupidly shortsighted. I'd about exepct this from a 2-year tech school, maybe, but a university?
"Hey kids! This semester, we'll learn about object oriented programming! Open your C# manual to page..."
"Hey kids! This semester, we'll learn about data structures! Open your C# manual to page..."
"Hey kids! This semester, we'll learn about algorithms! Open your C# manual to page..."
"Hey kids! This semester, we'll learn about ethics! Open your C# manual to page..."
Re:At least C# is (probably) useful (Score:2)
But as with a lot of languages, using C# one can teach a student about:
This isn't ASP, it's a full blown modern language. Would Java (or another language) be better for the task? Maybe, maybe not. Nevertheless, this has nothing to do with schools teaching the student's a trade.
Re:At least C# is (probably) useful (Score:3, Insightful)
Please check the java.lang.reflect package in the standard J2SDK and come back to this thread. And while you are doing so check the JPDA architecture and head up to the Eclipse Project [eclipse.org] to see a ass kicking implementation of meta data and reflection.
BTW, all this was in Java a lot of time ago, if you didn't know it, that's your fault.
I would like someone to explain us what's about the getter and setter structure in C#, it's like Minority Report: Spielberg couldn't get rid of the whole AI crap completely
Re:At least C# is (probably) useful (Score:2)
Re:Nooooooo! (Score:2)
Re:Nooooooo! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Nooooooo! (Score:4, Informative)
Waterloo does not have, and is not getting a Comp Sci faculty. They have a mathematics faculty, one of a few in the world. That in turn had a Computer Science department, which has now become a School of Computer Science. They are also now starting to offer a Bachelors of Computer Science, although the old Bachelors of Math with a major in Computer Science will still be available. The new B.CS will be less math intensive, and more open to specialization in various areas.
-Rob
Re:Nooooooo! (Score:3, Insightful)
Now this view is obviously fading a bit with the School of Computer Science, but it was hardly a secret.
Re:Nooooooo! (Score:2)
I dunno... does Sun pay a portion of your University's operating costs? That might be a big difference right there.
Re:Nooooooo! (Score:2)
Then it shifts to C++ And C.
Re:Nooooooo! (Score:3, Insightful)
For one thing a Java compiler and JVM exists for every platform that you can name. And you don't have to have a special development environment to hack Java. All you need is a Java compiler, a JVM and a text editor. I am not interested in paying money for Microsoft's tools, nor am I interested in booting into Windows to use them.
Re:Nooooooo! (Score:2)
Yes, I know about Mono, and I know about SharpDevelop. And if the University of Waterloo allowed you to hand in assignments that targetted Mono then I would not complain.
What are the chances of that happening?
Re:Nooooooo! (Score:4, Insightful)
jearl@porter:~$ csc
bash: csc: command not found
jearl@porter:~$ apt-cache search csc
cbrowser - a C/C++ source code indexing, querying and browsing tool
cscope - Interactively examine a C program source
libcteco50000 - Orga Eco 5000 smartcard reader PCSC and CT-API driver
libgempc410 - PC/SC driver for the GemPC 410 smart card reader
libgempc430 - PC/SC driver for the GemPC 430 smart card reader
libpcsc-perl - Perl interface to the PC/SC smart card library
libpcsclite-dev - PCSC Lite client development files
libpcsclite0 - PCSC Lite client library
libslbreflex2 - Reflex 62/64 smartcard reader PCSC and CT-API driver
libstring-approx-perl - Perl extension for approximate matching (fuzzy matching)
libtowitoko2 - Towitoko smartcard reader PCSC and CT-API driver
pcsc-tools - Some tools to be used with smart cards and PC/SC
pcscd - PCSC Lite resource manager daemon
slib - Portable Scheme library.
I apparently don't have a csc compiler available. Perhaps it's in non-free?
Re:Nooooooo! (Score:2)
C# crashed and burned at our school (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:C# crashed and burned at our school (Score:2)
So I ask you; why did it crash and burn? Apart from the obviously ties to M$, the language is a dream... I've written a little multiplayer nethack clone with it already and I must say, I'm impressed. JAVA has a little way before it can compete on features with C#/.NET... Maybe JAVA 3 if Sun ever release it? Ideas?
Re:C# crashed and burned at our school (Score:2)
* agreed, C# is Java on steroids, but its 5-7 years younger.
* Java is 5-7 years older, so all the bugs has been ironed out.
* Java is trully cross-platform right now.
Re:C# crashed and burned at our school (Score:3, Interesting)
; missing line 41
It's not half bad for a teaching environment! Oh wait, you need to be able to BABY newby programmers more than that don't you... damn
Bryan
Re:C# crashed and burned at our school (Score:2)
If C# were released by Sun and only ran on Solaris, then it would be greeted with the same disdain.
Re:C# crashed and burned at our school (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure those are the comp sci requirements.... (Score:4, Funny)
Sure those are the comp sci requirements, but what are the biz school requirements?
The monopoly corporation as a friend to free market economics 101?
any other microsoft required classes you can think of?
Re:Sure those are the comp sci requirements....NO! (Score:5, Interesting)
Not Comp Sci. Comp Eng. Myself and some of my peers that are in Comp Sci are going to draft a letter shortly, asking whtether anything similar is in the works, and insisting that students be consulted. The School of Computer Science at Waterloo is very responsive to student issues, and I think more 'academic' and less 'industry oriented' than the Computer Engineers.
-Rob
Re:Sure those are the comp sci requirements....NO! (Score:2)
eh?
This isn't the first time this has happened. (Score:2, Interesting)
This may be the first time that Microsoft has funded a school but it is definitely not the first time that a gov't entity or corporation has.
why this is a bad idea (Score:3, Interesting)
Warning: Too many connections in
Warning: MySQL Connection Failed: Too many connections in
could not connect to database
Re:why this is a bad idea (Score:5, Funny)
Re:why this is a bad idea (Score:5, Informative)
hey, at UWS we use open source/free software. :-) it's a LAMP box.
paul
(uws sysadmin type)
Re:why this is a bad idea (Score:2)
Finally targeting students who can fight back (Score:2, Funny)
mod parent up! (Score:2)
MS is never going to win any mind share, but they still have the upper hand ... Because every last person I heard say "Fuck Microsoft" didn't turn down a job offer doing development on MS platforms/compilers -- if an offer was made.
Having principles can be damn expensive
University should reconsider.. (Score:2)
-- Greg
so what? (Score:2, Troll)
So what if they have to learn another programming language. I once had a full course on Prolog, which I hated, but I went through it, passed, and then forgot completely about Prolog.
This seems to me like just it. Pass the course on C#, maybe with the help of some nearby geek, for those who don't like programming too much, and then go on with your life. It's not like C# will be the only language they'll ever use after that.
Unless, of course, it's the ONLY mandatory programming course they have?
Re:so what? (Score:2)
No, of course it isn't. It's one of several. The point, and the problem, is that this is curriculum set by industry members. And not just any industry members, but a convicted monopoly, that has been known to weasle in and out of things before.
It's a compromise of academic integrity.
-Rob
Buying mandatory classes? (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that this University is willing to sacrifice any sort of appearence of propriety in order to squeeze a few bucks out of Microsoft is as pathetic and outragous as if they were to let the parents of poorly-performing students buy their way in with large cash donations.
Of course, the latter example happens all the time, but at least they don't brag about it in press releases.
Anyhow, it seems to me a horrible idea to set this sort of prescident. What's next? Coke gives a few bucks to the football team and suddenly all students have to undergo a session about the crisp, refreshing taste of Coke, Diet Coke and Sprite? The music industry buys the U a building and, next thing you know, all students are required to buy $300 of Britney and N'Sync albums for their music appreciation courses?
Universities should be about education, not indoctrination. Unless these are the best languages for teaching the foundations of computer programming (and they are not), they shouldn't be required.
Re:Buying mandatory classes? (Score:2)
Re:Buying mandatory classes? (Score:5, Insightful)
--locust
Re:Buying mandatory classes? (Score:3, Insightful)
By the by, California is headed in this direction, too. Apparently people here think that quality education is free, and that it's just the greedy teachers (who can't afford to live here anyhow) who would be taking their money otherwise. Oh well, when I have kids I should be able to afford to send them to an expensive private school.
Re: Buying mandatory classes? (Score:2, Funny)
I'm still angry about it. Every time I get a fundraising letter, I rip it up and trash it. If Maurice Wilkes wants more money for the Computer Lab he can bend over and kiss Bill Gates' butt some more, 'cause he's not getting anything from me for the William Gates Laboratory for Computer Science.
I mean, what next? The Arthur Andersen Mathematics Building? The Rupert Murdoch School of Journalism? The Ken Lay MBA Program?
Happiness is Mandatory (Score:4, Informative)
Xix.
Re:Buying mandatory classes? (Score:2)
Exclusive availablity is still a bummer, but at least they're not coming into class and having a trusted figure (your prof) tell you that Pepsi is a better drink than Coke or Gatoraide or water, whereas requiring C# at least brands it as a good learning language (which, IMO, it isn't).
To use an analogy, I don't care if Tom Clancy books are the only fiction military thrillers available in the student bookstore, because I can always go elsewhere (and you could go to Safeway, buy a case of 7-Up and be done). I'd care if Clancy's publisher made a huge donation and suddenly, to graduate as a lit major, I had to take a mandatory course on his books.
Waterloo has Been MS's for a long time... (Score:2)
Waterloo is the top comp sci school in Canada (no, I went to the University of Victoria, so pretty objective), and in the top 5 in North America.
Bummer that they've sold out.
Proprietary and Acadamia just don't mix (Score:5, Insightful)
Any CS program that concentrates too heavily on one thing (ie programming in C# or Java for that matter) really short changes its students and limits the potential that they can achieve. A much more broad approach, while not churning out top notch Java developers, produces excellent problem solvers who are able to quickly learn and adapt to the ever-changing technology world. Looking back on my undergrad experience I think that playing around on the HP-UX and AT&T UNIX (R) box helped me break out of the mold and learn much more effectively.
Nothing new... (Score:2)
Of course, it happened my Sophmore year, so I was not gifted with the freebies. Of course, I did get a free copy of the one true version of Windows (Win2k) from MS for free later, so I'm no more bitter than I usually am.
Re:Nothing new... (Score:2)
So? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So? (Score:2)
On the other hand, the Engineering dept. (which is the one that is being forced to take these courses) is more dependent on working knowledge. Which means knowing the languages intricately over just knowing the concepts behind programming languages.
E&CE IMHO is more an applied CS course then anything else. Thus, MS purchased the right dept. when they pulled this fast one. And at Waterloo, the engineering students would never do anything uncorporate so they'll probably just bend over and...
This is why I am glad I am a honours pure math major.
Re:So? (Score:2)
too true... a professor of mine told us the first day of class that by the end of the semester, all we would need to be semi-productive (note: he said semi-productive, not necessarily efficient) in any language was the syntax for three structures: a loop, an assignment, and a conditional. I would say that's been my experience so far, though i would augment that with the caveat that to really produce anything worthwhile, one would have to know how to use a function library. so make that 4 things.
Re:So? (Score:4, Funny)
For the same reason, if I were to pick a single language to be taught to engineers, I wouldn't recommend teaching Java either.
You should start with something like C that teaches the fundamentals, then when you know how a computer *really* works, you can move on to a higher level language like C# or Java.
Re:So? (Score:2)
Is this a suprise? (Score:2, Interesting)
Community Colleges that have courses available, are very PRO-Microsoft. The Community College I am going to has,
The rare Linux, or C++, or C class is taught at night and there tends to only be one class. It is more a matter of Microsoft taking over all computer learning and other stuff is just a set of geeky computer products.
Re:Is this a suprise? (Score:2)
Microsoft marketing gurus (Score:3, Funny)
Jane: "Darn it, Bob, I just don't understand. No matter how many times we ask people, 'Where do you want to go today?', they still seem to think of us as a big, bullying monopolist."
Bob: "Well, Jane, maybe we should just change the message. Perhaps if we say, 'Where do you really want to go today?', people will respond better!"
The guy in the corner from developer marketing meekly raises his hand. "Uh, guys, perhaps if we didn't put out press releases crowing about our ability to buy out universities, we wouldn't be perceived as bullies."
Jane: "Bob, I think your proposal is right on the money!"
Bob: "Hey, that's why they pay us the big bucks, right?"
Dijkstra's comments on similar case (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Dijkstra's comments on similar case (Score:3, Insightful)
Really, I agree with almost everything you say; my CS courses had fuck-all to do with computer science. However, I find I use my differential equations, geometry, and fourier analysis more than I do the useless Pascal and Visual Idiot classes.
Computer Science has to do with mathematics and logic. Geometry teaches logic better than most programming language classes. CS has to do with deconstruction of problems. Diff-eq teaches deconstruction. CS has a lot to do with analysis. Physics has a lot to teach about analysis.
Don't shortchange other studies just because they don't teach CS directly. There is a lot to learn from math, and physics, and chemistry, and even freakin' English.
Other than that: you are completely correct. They aren't teaching computer science. Most places teach lame-assed language principles I learned back in 8th grade, on my Apple ][.
Article text (finally got it) (Score:2, Informative)
MS Ca Pres Clegg and Dr. Dave sign agreement At 10:00 today Microsoft Canada Co. President Frank Clegg announced $2.3 million funding that will facilitate three projects in the areas of academic research, education solutions, and curriculum integration. UW President David Johnston, UW's Director of ICR Vic DiCiccio, and MS Canada's Director of Education Sector George Kyriakis spoke as part of the announcement.
The aim of the research project is to develop equation recognition for new Tablet PCs that, in addition to having the functionality of laptops, have a screen which is touch sensitive to styli.
Clegg said that Tablet PCs are set to be released 7 November this year. He said he couldn't say for sure what the retail price will, "It would be great if we could get it down to the price of of a regular laptop."
Clegg and Dr. Dave discussing the Tablet PC The education solutions project will allow students to access lab equipment and simulators. A press release says that 8,000 course students in E&CE will benefit from this.
Under curriculum integration, first-choice applicants to UW's E&CE program will be allowed to take a new pre-university programming course in C#, E&CE 050. Completion of this course will be mandatory for students entering the E&CE program. C# is a new programming language developed by Microsoft.
The existing course E&CE 150, an introductory course to programming, will change from using C++ to C#.
DiCiccio commented on changing curriculum under the agreement, "E&CE weighed all the aspects of it and was comfortable with the change...UW is really sensitive to curriculum decisions it makes." He also joked, "$2.3 million isn't enough to sacrifice curriculum."
DiCiccio, Johnston, Clegg and Kyriakis At the end of the press conference, Clegg and President Johnston signed the agreement using an Acer Tablet PC. The announcement was made at UW in the Davis Centre's ICR Corporate Partner Lounge, which is also known as the fishbowl or the wine-and-cheese lounge. About 100 people attended.
The funding is part of the Microsoft Canada Academic Innovation Alliance, a $10 million dollar fund administered over five years that will accept proposals from acredited universities. A press release describes the four categories of the fund, academic research, education solutions, curriculum integration and industry outreach.
Kyriakis said, "We believe we should create ties between the business community and the academic community to ensure that innovation happens into the future." He added, "What we're doing at Waterloo is just fantastic."
All projects under the alliance will incorporate Microsoft technology. Clegg said, "We think that is the value that we provide."
Microsoft Canada President Frank Clegg has agreed to answer the 10 best questions posed by uws readers about the Microsoft Canada Academic Innovation Alliance, and its impact at UW. So, post your questions. uws editors will select the 10 best and send them to Mr. Clegg, then post his responses.
Old Hat Distribution (Score:3, Informative)
I'm not concerned yet... (Score:2)
The myth of Waterloo (Score:5, Interesting)
[This is an excerpt from chapter 2 [iuniverse.com] of my book [proudlyserving.com].]
- adamRe:The myth of Waterloo (Score:4, Insightful)
After being surrounded by innumerable UW students in the last 5 years, I'm more than thrilled to see their self-congratulatory egos shattered by the hammer of reality. There's a common fallacy among UW CS/CE/EE students that goes like this:
1. School X is good
2: I go to school X
3. Therefore, I am good.
But many of the UW grads I've worked with don't know their heads from their asses. Ask anyone who has ever TA'd CS 354 (the third-year Operating Systems class), and who has had students ask them what a heap is, for example. And yet, they'll strut around school, thinking about how companies will stumble over each other in offering them cushy jobs with huge salaries, free Odwalla, etc.
Re:The myth of Waterloo (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:The myth of Waterloo (Score:5, Interesting)
And how many famous poeple do you know the alma mater of?
A lot of guys from my time at U of Waterloo have done stuff to get noticed. People like Mark Tilden get written about. Ever heard of RIM? Built almost entirely by UW people, and I know their names and went to school with many of 'em, so you might not.
Some for the people who founded Mortis Kern, who were also the people who wrote Coherent, pretty well known in Unix circles.
Know Tom Duff and Bill Reeves? They're pretty famous in computer graphics circles. You see their names on the credits or a lot of movies from ILM and PIXAR. Late 70s waterloo folks again.
Walter Banks, one of the founders of Byte magazine? Scott Vanstone, pioneer in eliptic curve cryptography. (he taught me crypto.) And as the article suggests, though MS doesn't make its programmers into stars, a ton of Microsoft's code is from UW grads.
And you know, I'm not as famous as Stallman but I'm not that unknown myself in the online world.
And this is just the guys from my time around 1980. Lots of other folks after us went on to great things, but I don't necessarily know what school they went to.
Of course, UW is a young school, just coming up on 45 years of age. It got famous for WATFOR when it was only 10 years old. It takes a lot of time and reputation to get to the level of those other schools.
Is it the best school in the world? Who knows, but I know when I started hiring people years later, few I found from various U.S. schools were as good as the friends I had who were the best from Waterloo.
Re:misses the point (Score:3, Insightful)
I think microsoft would notice, they put a lot of effort into their hiring.
Re:The myth of Waterloo (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree with your assessment that there's a mythos behind UW students that seems to be carried among other companies as well, particularily in professional service firms, whether smaller ones or larger (like Accenture). But this mythos isn't entirely without basis.
I would generalize your observation to include my own experiences interviewing and working with UW co-ops and graduates: many UW students often *do* interview better than most other graduates and/or interns. And they often do generate better-than-average results. Over the past 2 companies I've worked for on the U.S. west coast and the east coast -- management fell in love with UW students.
I would attribute this to what some might find surprising: many CS and Eng students at UW have very good communication skills relative to their peers in other schools. The co-op program requires them to be good, since they have to work in between heads-down course work. Naturally every class has legendary high-mark/anti-social students, but they wind up being professors anyway *grin*.
A secondary reason for UW student's success at Microsoft and PSFs is that UW tends to hammer programming skills into CS students, even if it kills them (as anyone who's taken Operating Systems will attest to).
Being relatively professional speakers, the best UW co-ops are usually both confident & technically savvy enough to be placed on the front-lines to do real work -- whether in front of a client for a contract, or @ Microsoft with the culture of debating ideas.
Usually the UW co-ops and/or graduates I have known have been better than many full-time employees at client sites. But not perfect. I find UW grads, like all grads, have a lot of learning to do in placing systems work in business context. There's also a general lack of both high and low-level design skills, and an overemphasis on tricky algorithms and/or cleverness. The cynic in me believes this makes them fit right into Microsoft, which until
So, in summary: there is a myth around waterloo students, but not entirely unwarrented. They're more experienced programmers than most regular interns from other schools, and often they can be better communicators.
ECE150 focus is on programming, not language (Score:2, Informative)
The second course of the set - ECE250 - is titled Algorithms and Data Structures and is taught in Java, and in either case, you are expected to pick up the language and start using it without any hand-holding. There's one hour tutorial at the start of the course that explains the language used (it was C++ for me), and after that, it's just TA's helping people during lab hours.
I don't think this is as big a deal as it sounds...
C++ Out at UW (Score:2)
Droping C++ from the cariculum ensures that students graduating with degrees from UW will not be suitable for working on anthing that most of my peers would consider interesting.
Bravo UW.
Universites- bunch of sell-outs (Score:2)
Also there was a lot of courses in compsci where you'd just think "Why the hell is this course in here ?" An example was on the MSc in Information Technology (basically a 1 year conversion course for people new to IT) where they had a course on inductive logic programming. This was way ahead of anything else the students were taught (data structures, basic pascal programming etc). The real reason was that the inductive logic dude was a former Oxford lecturer who came with attractive grant prospects.
It's all about making money and not teaching students. Universities are businesses. They have only a little more integrity than those spammers who offer to sell you a degree over the internet!
Also look at the fact that final degree marks have changed. In my parents' time it was incredibly difficult to get a 1st class degree, you had to work really hard to get a 2.1 etc. Now they basically split it like:
bottom 10% = Do no work at all- go to no lectures: pass general , fail or 3rd class (randomly decided)
middle 80% = 2.2 or 2.1- either did work or was intelligent but did no work.
top 10% = 1st.
graspee
Harvad Law School and the RIAA joint venture (Score:2)
So what else is new? (Score:2)
(Disclaimer: while I've never attended UW, I used to live a block from campus, my (now ex-) wife worked there, and I once worked at a company where there were only two other (out of about fifty) non-UW grads on the tech staff. I also worked at the computer center of another university a few miles down the road from UW, we were pretty familiar with things at that campus.)
think this is a bad idea? tell the president! (Score:3, Insightful)
- email president@uwaterloo.ca [mailto]
- phone 519-888-4567, Ext. 2202
- fax 519-888-6337
Job Interviews in 4 Years... (Score:5, Funny)
Grad: "I know C#! Hire me!"
Industry: "C#. Check. What else do you know?"
Grad: "Huh? Like what?"
Industry: "Well, what did you learn in some of your other courses?
Grad: "I know how to design a web page so that it only works under Internet Explorer."
Industry: "Hmm..okaaaay. What type of degree did you say you have again?"
Grad: "I have a copy right here..."
Industry: "That says MCSE. That's not a diploma."
Grad: "No, it is. There's some fine print at the bottom. See?"
The Other UW and Microsoft (Score:4, Insightful)
Our new building is being funded almost exclusivly by personal donations from Paul Allen and Bill Gates. We do a large amount a research with Microsoft Research. All students get all the free Microsoft Software they want (except games). Some of our talented faculty have spent many years at Microsoft
Desite all that we still have Unix orientation for new students. All homework is required to be turned in with a Unix Makefile and compile under gcc. Java is our introductory language.
I didn't write a line of code in Windows while I was there and I'm the rule and not the exception. I suspect University of Waterloo is has a pedagogical philosophy more along the lines of a community college and scimps on theory.
At the University of Washington I felt no pressure to learn Microsoft products or proprietary languages. It was quite the opposite, in fact. I'm certain no other University has a stronger relationship with Microsoft.
Re:The Other UW and Microsoft (Score:5, Interesting)
Not at all... Waterloo is VERY heavy on theory. It's not rated one of the top Canadian universities year after year [uwaterloo.ca] for behaving like a community college. You learn theory in class, and you learn practical on your co-op terms... last time I heard, UW had the largest co-op program in the entire world. It's a pretty good mix, not to mention it helps you pay your own way.
Just don't venture into the psych building, or the 6th floor of the math building without a compass and a ball of string, or you'll never get out alive.
Not an "additional mandatory course" (Score:3, Interesting)
This is not a case of an "additional mandatory course on C#" being added to the curriculum. This is an instance where the language of instruction in one of the already mandatory courses, namely ECE 150 [uwaterloo.ca], is being changed from C++ to C#.
This does not make the degree a "Microsoft degree," anymore than using Java in introductory courses (as UW's School of Computer Science [uwaterloo.ca] does) makes a degree a "Sun degree."
C# is OK, the decision is not (Score:5, Insightful)
What is not acceptable, however, is for grants from a company to be tied to the use of its products in the curriculum. And, in fact, while C# is fine technically and educationally, Java would still be a more useful language for students to learn.
Decisions like this really call into question the academic integrity of a university; potential students of U. of Waterloo should take notice.
Webcast (with slides) for presentation (Score:3, Informative)
EULA Shrinkwrap 4 University of Waterloo Degrees? (Score:5, Funny)
the other reason this is lame... (Score:3, Interesting)
I looked at the numbers in the MS press release and thought: $10 spread over 5 years and across all the universities in the country? How lame? $2.3M for this deal ($7.7M left for the remaining 4 years).
Ten million dollars is equivilant to what, perhaps 4 seconds worth of profit from Microsoft? Consider that Microsoft proper currently sits on $40 billion in cash. If they where taxes 30% on that money. $2.3 million would be due in about 2 hours. This doesn't even get in to their temendous cash flow.
Waterloo isn't just a Microsoft whore, it's a damed cheap one at that. I can understand selling out for the money, but they should have at least demanded $50M per year.
Re:Where's the Problem? (Score:3, Insightful)
And what about those students that are already here? I'm not in Computer Engineering, but Computer Science at Waterloo. I find it offensive that my school would sell out its curriculum to Microsoft. Switching schools is hardly a reasonable option for someone that's already here, though I would consider it if it happened in CS and not just CompEng.
-Rob
Re:Where's the Problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a good deal for both sides.
Deals between hospitals and insurance companies for managed health care are good for both sides. But are they good for the patient? Deals between the military and arms contractors are good for both sides. But are they good for soldiers & taxpayers? Hypothetical deals between congressmen and lobbyists ("hypothetical" because there is, of course, no quid pro quo) are good for both sides, but are they good for voters and citizens?
Is this deal good for the students of UW? THAT is the only question that matters.
Re:Where's the Problem? (Score:2)
Where does someone go to school when they all are like this? how does one minimize the effects of corporate bias?
Re:Where's the Problem? (Score:2, Interesting)
At the University of British Columbia (where I'm a PhD student) Coke has a monopoly deal -- all vending machines and food sources on campus sell only Coke products. (UBC is isolated -- virtually no off campus sources are available.) So what -- just drink water? UBC has removed/is removing the drinking water fountains from around campus, because of "maintenance costs" -- which is a bit of a joke because none have ever been maintained as far as I can see. No connection to the contract with Coke, I'm sure... My collegues and I currently fill waterbottles from the taps in the bathrooms, and we're just waiting for some nasty disease to ripple through.
Universities fill a WAY larger role in society than job training. Deals like this one erode the functions of independant criticism.
Re:Where's the Problem? (Score:2, Interesting)
I graduated from Bowling Green State University this past December. They completed our new student union sometime around then (I really don't remember when it was done, maybe Spring Break). Anyway, this fucking project was funded in part by a large donation from Pepsi Co. which came from the school deciding to go 100% w/Pepsi instead of multiple vendors.
I never have and never will like Pepsi. It's not b/c of them being stupid w/Spears, etc, it's just b/c it tastes like shit. Anyway. My last year or so I didn't have the choice of what drink to have on campus (no, I didn't have cash on hand to buy Coke somewhere else and drink it on campus).
The student body was asked what their opinion was. A panel was formed, they decided, fuck Pepsi and the Union donation, we were sticking w/choice.
The school OTOH decided that 8 million dollars was worth pissing on the students and building a huge Union (with a lot of empty space I might add).
back to the original comment. Yes, they make these deals but w/o really caring for the students. $ > students, always.
Re:Waterloo has the most recognised CS program (Score:2)
Personally, I find that to be a much better choice for making big bucks from sitting in front of a computer.
I can't imagine how you equate "paying several thousand dollars in annual tuition" with "making big bucks". Or did you mean that UW is the best choice for a stepping stone to those high-paying jobs? Because I'm sure there are millions of graduates of other schools around the world who would disagree with that statement.
Re:Waterloo has the most recognised CS program (Score:3, Interesting)
That happens to be a very Ontario-centric, Toronto is the centre of the universe opinion. (Even though Waterloo is not in Toronto) Outside of Ontario, the opinion of Waterloo is that it has a very good graduate program, but its undergrad program puts out spagetti coders.
If your looking for an undergrad, take a look into UofC, or SFU. SFU has a coop program just as good as Waterloo, if not better.
If you're looking for a graduate school, you wanna school with a prof that works with stuff you are interested in. And a bigger school, such as UBC or UofT, that throws a lot of money at research. (Which sometimes involves selling your soul to the devil)
But you state you wanna go to Waterloo so you can make big bucks. Here's a little tip. Do what you like. If you like it, you will be good at it. If you're good at it, then you'll make money.
But if you wanna just make the big bucks, go to Waterloo. You and MS will make a great couple.
Bill doesn't own C# (Score:2)
Re:Bill doesn't own C# (Score:3, Insightful)
Try it this way: yeah but everytime you say Java(tm) you tend to spread word of mouth about Sun Microsystems. So even if there is a Java(tm) compiler for linux, Sun gets free advertising.
Oh, but Sun is the good megacorp, and Java(tm) is an open source and standards-based, well, OK, it isn't really, but C#, is, well, it is an ECMA standard. But Microsoft is bad, no matter what.
Re:Java (Score:2)
There is nothing wrong with a University offering classes that deal with MS, but when they are forced, the message is sent that MS is insuring that when people graduate, they will have a healthy number of people in the workforce who are famiular with their prodcuts.
Weather or not MS's products are better or worse then their competitors is a moot point. I certiantly woudn't want to go to a school that mandates I am knowledgable of a particular comapnies products at the expense of learning about another companies products that I am more interested in (or am seeking a job working on after graduation)
Microsoft gets a good deal more of blame then if this was proposed by another company because it fits into a larger scheme of gorillia marketing tactics. Why spend more money/resources making our product better if A: we can make sure that everyone uses ours, and B: we can make sure that there will always be people around to fix it if it breaks.
Re:Glad to be getting out (Score:2)
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