235,000 Software Engineers Can't Be Wrong, Right? 980
jgeelan writes "The Boston Globe has carried a report on how 235,000 engineers and computer scientistsl are calling on Congress to study the impact of the country's H1-B visa program, the recession, and the outsourcing of jobs overseas on the unemployment rate of engineers and other information technology professionals.
It's an issue that's bubbling on discussion sites all over America too, though in one case developers (Java developers in this instance) seem completely unable to agree on whether H1-B is really a contributing factor or not."
hold on a second (Score:3, Interesting)
IEEE-USA? Well bully for them! Did all 235,000 members send in their support or did a majority vote on this or did the publicity arm send this out on behalf of those people who are members?
Didn't Stallman say something like this would happ (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not a good situation (Score:2, Interesting)
They're whining about 4.8-5.3% unemployment!?! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:H1B's are GOOD for America (Score:5, Interesting)
The correct way to handle H1B visas is to make them into real greencards and eliminate them as sojourner visas. Hey, I don't want my cousin-in-law to be forced to go back to Thailand when her H1B visa ends.
Your other quote just points out another problem with the H1B process:
This will actually distort the process, since government officials tend not to want to eliminate revenue whatever the source. (However, I wouldn't object to it as much if H1Bs were brought in as real immigrants and not sojourners.)One last thing, your quote:
We shouldn't just accept abuses, we should take care of them however we can. One way would be to fast track H1Bs to real greencards. In this way, we would eliminate certain deficiencies in the program that allow for abuses.Re:What a terrible choice to have to make. (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm a belgian currently working for a company based in california. .com "era" acted like prima donas and massively left for higher salaries.
This company employed a dozen or so americans who, during the
The company now employs 7 people: 5 belgian, 1 french and 1 canadian. We're getting paid salaries from 40 to 75K per month (depending on the person). I don't call that slavery and I must say these salaries range from nice to very good according to our standards
I admit that the situation I'm living is better than what it could be for people in asian countries but face it, the problem originally comes from the americans, not from the foreigners. It's all about value. Sure the asians are cheaper than the americans (or europeans for that matter), but can you easily communicate with them? Do you know if they'll do the work the way you expect them to? That's a compromise. Overall it's best to have the team where you are. In our case, the boss moves regularly to belgium to talk about the project. If the americans originally hadn't acted the way they did and did not (even now) ask ludicrous salaries, the company would still be employing a majority of americans...
Re:Different filter needed (Score:2, Interesting)
If a company is determined to pay the lowest wages, then it doesn't it matter to me whether they get a visa worker or a code monkey right out of college. Either way, they're not going to pay what I expect, so no one is taking a job from me.
If a bright visa worker shows up (and shows me up) that means that I've been slacking off. The way to fix that problem is to be better than others, not to deny them visas.
OK, so here's a potential problem:
Entry level pay positions are going to experienced visa engineers instead of local entry level skills folks. This makes "breaking in" to tech work tougher, and folks just out of school can't get their foot in the door.
So is it a real problem? I dunno. As far as competition between visa workers and experienced workers goes, the answer seems simple. Sharpen your skills or lower your price. No need to put a quota on competition.
So much BS about H1-B (Score:4, Interesting)
Myths:
It seems that the article is more sour grapes than anything else. Don't get me wrong - I don't dislike the United States, but I feel it's a better place to go on vacation than to actually live. Especially with the post-9/11 restrictions on the freedoms that actually made the country attractive in the first place.
Wrong (Score:2, Interesting)
They work harder and find few excuses and are so detail oriented that when compared with the other American workers there, put the Americans to shame. I, am American. I even found myself lazy compared to them.
The company only required 35 hours a week (my salary was $72 -- I was R&D). We had two hour lunches. They didn't hardly care much about being in-tune with their work, as I on the other hand, devoted my life to squeezing every last bit of performance out of whatever I could and reading trade magazines and buying every book on the shelf about programming out of my pocket. I game my all, but not all my hours.
They, gave all their hours (when not required to) and often did exemplary work in their projects. I must say, I see no harm in foreign workers. Americans (as I've seen but I haven't seen them all) are simply lazy when compared to them. Again, based on what I've seen which is by no means exhaustive. I'm proud to have met those people and watched 1 Indian and 1 Russian become and American citizen as a result of corporate sponsorship.
Thanks,
Me
Observations on H1Bs (Score:2, Interesting)
When I was doing my Masters from Purdue, most of Masters students in Electrical and Computer Sciences were non Americans. I used to TA a undergrad class and have never found a foreign student get bad grades. Maybe its that they cant lose their scholarships that makes them work hard. But either way, they come out of school learning quite a lot.
At work, I have seen many H1B workers work very hard. Maybe because they usually dont have a very firm financial base here or maybe they dont have much social ties and spend all their time at work. They eventually do a better job, aquire good skills and climb the company ladder. So employers do like them.
As for low pay, in the good old days of economic boom, I haven't seen H1Bs being paid less than their peers. I have seen them rise in the company hierarchy and do well. But now that the economy is turning bad, many employers not hiring H1Bs. I have seen people forced to work on salaries which don't compensate their skills. Because they if they dont have a job, they have to leave in 14 days. For most of them with kids at school and property, it is a very tough situation. So they take paycuts. Everyone is getting hit hard, but they are getting a bigger share of it.
So perhaps its not fair to blame them. Maybe we should take a leaf from their book and try to inculcate these qualities so that our managers dont find us dispensable.
Re:The issue is a tad more complex (Score:3, Interesting)
H1-B "Problem" is self-correcting (Score:4, Interesting)
My fiance' moved to the US from Sweden about five months ago. With a Masters' degree from one of Europe's most prestigious CompSci/Engineering universities, a Sun java certification, and several years' proven experience with some of Europe's largest IT consulting firms doing SQL programming, PHP/ASP scripting, Java & Linux development - We had one hell of a time finding an employer in the US to sponsor her.
Nearly all of the firms with listings in our area flatly stated that they would not sponsor. Most of them print this in their ads. The reasons are simple:
1. $1,000 sponsorship fee, paid to US Government
2. $1,000 15-day H1B premium processing fee, payable by employee. If you don't chose this option, paperwork takes 3-5 months.
3. $130 filing fee.
4. An absolute blizzard of paperwork. We were unable to find an immigration attorney in our city that even understood the process. (South Bend, Indiana) - We ended up retaining a high-caliber immigration specialist from Houston TX. Their fee? $1,750.
It's safe to say that none but the Fortune 1000 are willing to tackle the expense or have the expertise in handling the daunting forms.
We finally found a local company willing to sponsor her, a local health care facility. They were very excited to get her, offered to hire her on the spot and reimbursed half her expenses. Why? *drumroll* - The position went unfilled for nearly five months as they were unable to find a qualified person locally.
She is most certainly not being taken advantage of, having been offered a salary very much in line with her duties and educational background.
Say what you will about the H1-B, but we can certainly tell you - It's alot harder to get sponsored than you think.
Re:H1B's = Lack of Jobs for US Citizens (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Yes, shameful. But who's being the racist? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:As an H1B Visa holder... (Score:1, Interesting)
I own a small consulting firm and this is what I see happening even with H1Bs. More and more work is going off shore. $25-$50/hr is a steal. I've even heard of rates less than that. I can't staff a project with those numbers and American workers H1B or not.
Re:H1B's = Lack of Jobs for US Citizens (Score:3, Interesting)
Right, and the people it represents include business owners, managers, shareholders, and consumers in addition to employees. If Sun can hire an immigrant engineer for half the price of an equally qualified American -- or someone who will do twice as much at the same price -- as a Sun customer I would be happy to benefit from that. (Note that the H1B program is actually supposed to require comparable pay, though from what I can tell that's routinely flouted.)
And actually, if I really wanted to be cynical, I'd repeat something my high-school U.S. history teacher once said: government has a single purpose, and that single purpose is to perpetuate its own existence (on an individual level, to get re-elected).
Re:What a terrible choice to have to make. (Score:2, Interesting)
I think this is a very valuable point. There seems to be an underlying assumption in this whole discussion that is very questionable. The assumption that there is only a fixed amount of jobs available at any given point. This belief is often connected to the belief there is a certain amount of work that needs to be finished at any given period.
If one thinks about it, both are not correct.
First, there is always more work to be done. We all do are small part in whatever role we have, but if we do more each day it does not generally mean that there will be less for other to do that day. It can mean that others can try to slack more, but it equally often leads to pressure/inspiration for others to do more themselves. It can lead to the company needing fewer employees, but those employees with extra inspiration and work energy often give better profits for the company and then again the wish for more employees to help in the companies growth. A good example is the way technology has made us more effective. The related myth that computers/machine will make people jobless is easily disproved by pointing out how many more (in percentage/total numbers) have a productive and interesting job today than 100 years ago.
Similarly, the number of jobs available is not a fixed number but is always updated together with the companies perception of opportunities available and current economy. In this particular example, if there are skilled Indians available who ask for less pay, some companies will use the opportunity to hire, even if they would not hire if these job seekers where not there in the first place. One could say, their presence in the market created new jobs not there before, since not only did they get a job themselves, but they spend their money in the local shop and pay their taxes too. And if the company did a good analysis of the value of these extra people, the company becomes more productive and pay more taxes/can hire more people too etc. etc. (By the way, I am not saying that these Indians should only be allowed to get under-payed jobs. This is not what a open society is about. Discrimination is hard to prevent, but that doesn't mean that one should allow it, and I do not think it is good for the economy or make more jobs for the non-discriminated.)
And, lets not forget, I am sure that among some of those 40,000 or whatever the number is, are a few entrepreneurs who helps create new companies, new markets, new products and be a great benefit to the countries economy.
Re:work goes to BS-artists, not best techy (Score:3, Interesting)
While I agree there aren't too many that are good at both, that doesn't mean that one shouldn't aspire to it.
H1-B Labor bribed in Congress by big Silicon (Score:1, Interesting)
over his findings that approx. 22 million was
paid by Sun, Micro$oft, Ci$co, Or-suckle and
several other to "Fluff" the numbers of IT
workers needed .
This came to a vote before congress, the Dem's
and the Repub's all voted for the bill
In fact the bill to double the H1-b's per year
was voted 98-1, one of the most unanimous votes
in the history of our county, only a handful
of other issues like declaring WWII got so
high a percentage .
As to the foreign workers who want to come here
and work and send as much home as they can, I
have but one questions for you ???
How are americans treated in your country that
visit, that flirt with your women, that want
to buy things, and setup businesses and take
jobs and sales from companies there ???
In some it is not allowed at all, period
Are they shown any animosity, any prejudice,
are they EVER treated poorly ???
Nary an unkind word eh ???
The US economy is in decline, if the vast
majority of technical labor drops to less
than what Union fork lift drivers make
what's the point . Tech jobs will become
crap jobs, no one will want them, and
bankrupties will drive the country into a
self fulfilling spiral all for a few Execs
that like to do things like PUMP and DUMP
on their stock options and lie on their SEC
filings
As to how we ended up this way, the corrupt
blood sucking politician/lawyers that have
not a care for their constituients
In a democracy it is supposed to be by the ppl
for the ppl, not what we have at present .
I really doubt the "US" programmers or their
parents would be pleased to find out that
their Congressman voted to put their children
out of work .
When you have ppl in charge that are EASILY
bought off, and are hand picked by party
members for the fine thread count of their
marionette strings for using them like cash
dancing puppets, what do you expect ??
Ex-MislTech
IT worker In Guantanamo Bay !