Microsoft in Peru, Living Room 366
Two pieces of Microsoft news today. tfofurn writes "According to this AP quickie and this Reuters story, both on Yahoo, Microsoft is donating 'about $550,000 in money, software and consulting services to the Peruvian government for educational and "e-government" initiatives' to Peru. The AP story mentions the conflict of this with Edgar Villanueva's proposal to have the government use only open source software. Villanueva (/. interview), you may recall, wrote a famous letter to MS Peru a few months ago." And many people have submitted stories about Windows XP Media Center, coming this winter to a living room near you.
Cool (Score:3, Funny)
Yeah! Free Money!
Re:Cool (Score:4, Funny)
You won't be able to sell it (Score:4, Interesting)
then they'll send me a bunch of free software
The only "free software" that Microsoft distributes is the GPL'd components of Interix [interix.com], MS's competitor to Red Hat's Cygwin [cygwin.com]. I'll assume that by "free software" you mean "royalty-free licenses for Microsoft software".
which I can then resell on Ebay.
I don't think so. Microsoft would be more likely to give you a free, non-transferable license to use the software. Given the outcome the last time Microsoft products were offered on eBay, Microsoft Licensing isn't as naive as some Slashdot readers would think.
Re:You won't be able to sell it (Score:2)
"free" == free (beer and speech)
"freeb" == free (beer)
"freesp" == free (speech).
So the OP would be getting some freeb MS software. Of course, after 1 year, when the license runs out it's no longer freeb, and the BSA comes a-knocking.
Re:You won't be able to sell it (Score:2)
Re:Cool (Score:3, Funny)
Will everybody do the same? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Will everybody do the same? (Score:2)
Yes, I've thought this too. I think Microsoft is just trying to hold back the tide at the moment. The strategy of giving software or substantially lowering prices for anyone who is thinking to moving to OSS is one that can only work in the short term. Unfortunately for Microsoft, there's not much else they can do. I think well just see more desparate attempts to lock their customers in in the future. As Steve Ballamer said the other day, they are no longer "the cheapest on the block" - he was essentially saying that it's difficult to compete with free.
Re:Will everybody do the same? (Score:2)
IMHO, this is the same as the dumping of steel or grain (or whatever) by some company into a foreign company to stifle the development of domestic competition. I'm not sure if it's illegal per se but if Microsoft were a foreign company and tried this stunt in the U.S., it'd probably trigger an import tariff being assessed to their software. {\sarcasm But it's OK if an American company does it to another country}.
Does Peru have much of a domestic software industry that could complain about this? Probably not. Or at least not one with enough money to combat this latest MS tactic.
Re:Will everybody do the same? (Score:5, Interesting)
During Christmas time it is a fairly common practice (or it used to be when I lived in Peru) for the police to simply pull over motorists and demand money. Bribes are very commonplace in Peru any time of the year, but during Christmas the police stop even pretending to be upholding the law. They have got guns and you don't, and their children need Christmas presents and Paneton.
Lima is a city of something like 7 million people and this "donation" is supposed to help something like 20,000 students (a pittance). My guess is that it ends up helping far fewer students than that, and all of the help will likely go to the rich private schools that the politicos send their children too.
Unfortunately it is impossible to do business in Peru without bribery. I am just surprised that Bill Gates himself is delivering the money. When I first heard that Peru was looking at Free Software legislation I was very skeptical. There are lots of good people in Peru, and I don't doubt that Dr. Villanueva is an honest man and a patriot, but honest Peruvian officials are few and far between.
Re:Will everybody do the same? (Score:4, Interesting)
This is not a gift. It is a free sample from a drug dealer.
Consider... even if lots of countries start talking about Linux every time they want free software from Microsoft, there will eventually come a time when Microsoft will just chuckle and tell them to go right ahead. By then, they'll have built enough 'issues' into interoperability with free software that it will be difficult to make it work without totally ripping out the existing infrastructure... and very, very few politicians will have the guts to put their governments through that kind of pain.
I hope that Peru has enough foresight to ignore this 'gift'. Mr. Villaneuva shows extraordinary intelligence in his analysis of free software, which gives me hope that they may indeed see the iron fist under the velvet glove.
Re:Will everybody do the same? (Score:2, Interesting)
And if you were a company 100% on Linux or some other Unix flavor, you think switching to MS would not be "terribly painful and difficult".
It's like this for any large company that does the most minor switch. OS switches are simply 10x more painfull. Try switching email clients, or email servers, or version control systems, or development environments... that's pain.
Also, once your hooked on MS, the only reason you want to get off that boat is generally because of $$$. Which is generally going to pay for you to switch to some other system. But you forget, most companies are completely satisfied with the MS desktop/server line and consider the expense an investment. And at many companies, this expenses is so small compared with their bottom line, the concept of switching in order to save money will not make business sense. If it works, and does what they want it to do, why switch?
-malakai
Re:Will everybody do the same? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, uhm... No. At least, not AS difficult. You see, Linux uses well defined standards and file formats instead of proprietary, constantly changing ones.
If it works, and does what they want it to do, why switch?
The business case for switching isn't JUST saving money. It's weening yourself off of said proprietary formats. Being locked in to a certain format might not be expensive RIGHT NOW, but using open formats means that it will never be any more expensive.
Re:Will everybody do the same? (Score:5, Insightful)
How about how Word 95 can't open any Word 97 docs. (Before you say, everyone does this... what was the necessity for this. If the upgrade was dramatically diferent, and it wasn't possible to use the same format, I might go easy - in this case, it seems really hard to make that argument.)
How about Access 97 vs 2000...
How about MS SQL Server, and your "special" extensions to SQL.
How about Active X, C#, HTML that only works on IE.
How about Kerberos?
How about breaking the OS/2 3.X compatibility mode every time they did virtually anything to Windows.
How about the totally bogus error messages you got in the beta versions of Windows 3.x when you were using DR Dos?
(Some of these are not propriatary file formats, but clearly demonstrate the capability and willingness to use despicable acts to maintain their power - and keep you by the short hairs.)
MS probably has one of the worst records of ANY company in the history of the computer industry. Locking you into a specific "hamster wheel" is their specialty.
If you like being MS's "hamster" go ahead. Many of the rest of us don't really care for it. For many reasons, money out of our pocket being one of them.
Cheers!
Re:Will everybody do the same? (Score:3, Insightful)
I seem to have to do this about once a month on slashdot, so I may as well get it out of the way now. Word, Excel, and Powerpoint formats have been released by MS. Word and Excel are actually supported binary formats (You can call their dev-support line if you have some issue with accessing the file structure). Power-point is not support, but is not confidential/proprietary.
Ok, if you don't want to write your own program to read the format, save you data in common formats then RTF for Word and HTML for Word/Excel/Power Point.
Anytime an office 2k and later application saves to HTML it really means 'save to XML'. Look at the file, it's pretty easy to comprehend, and it's documented as well.
Access? Access is an ugly mutt of a programming language and database. There is no alternative to Access on Linux unless your going to rewrite it in some other language/db. What do you expect the format to be? It's heavily dependent on VBA, and the database engine more recently is closer to SQL then any of the old Jet systems. The MDB file actually contains p-code 'compiled' by the VBA subsystem. Asking for a format to something as ugly and complicated as that is insane.
Do you expect Oracle to open up their database binary format? Should all the binary data files in lotus notes be standardized and published? How about RTFM. When you roll out Word 97, it by default maintains compatability with Word 95. It does this at the cost of disk space (writes both versions basically). You can configure Word 97 to only save as Word 95 as well. Also, MS provided Word import converters for the other direction.
Why was this done? Progress. You've heard about that right? Sometimes, when your a programmer, you make near sighted decisions that later bite you in the ass. Other times you come up with a better way of doing something, and you weight the change.
The Office team wanted Office 97 formats to be DocFiles, it's part of OLE 2.0, look it up it was all the rage in 1995. Basically, it allows multiple binary streams per document. Docfiles also provide their own internal mechanisms for subdirectories, locking, and transaction (i.e., commit/rollback) semantics. This has all sorts of other wonderfull benefits to us developers. Rather than let themselves and their features be forever locked in place due to old format, they bit the bullet and went for the change. See above paragraph. Change is a good thing. It means something is still alive. That's right, extensions. OPTIONAL FEATURES YOU MAY CHOOSE TO USE. SQL 92 and the other standards work just fine on SQL Server. You aren't forced to use the extensions. They are well labeled. You make a decision at design time, "Do I plan to be tied to SQL? Do I want to be able to leverage other RDMS systems?" Based on those choices you may decided to begin to use xp_sendMail or NOT TO. As a developer, I'd recommend against it. the xp_* procedures are nice for testing, or making some custom admin jobs, but if you use them in an app that is going to need to be RDMS neutral, you are the fault. Do you think developers are stupid enough to acidentally use an xp_ procedure and not know it's specific to MS SQL Server? "Duh, i didn't know Oracle didn't have xp_msver command! How can I tell what Window Version this is runnning on!" Active X is a standard. Implement it as a plugin, and walla, it works on Netscape. Oh wait, someone's already done it. Implementing it to work on another OS is a bit more of a challenge, but simply that... a challenge. You can do it if you'd like, it's well documented.
I have no idea what your're problem is with C#. My guess is you don't fully understand the CLR. Here's a hint, with certain OSS projects in the works, your C# code will work on Linux. Walk in peace in this enlightenment. Oh yeah, C# the language itself (.net aside) is completely documented. Implement it however you want.
As for HTML that only works in IE, this is a subject we could spend hours on. Most of the time, the reason HTML works in IE and not in NS, is because IE is more FORGIVING. It overlooks a lot of your errors. DOM, CSS, HTML (the actual standard, not what you were refering to be anything inside a web page) and many other _STANDARDS_ are well documented and each browser has very well known pluses and minuses in how it handles any 1 of thousands of test. Pick some specific issue if you want to further that line of dicussion. I'm going to assume you mean the extension added to the kerberos protocol so it would work in MS AD model? God forbid they use an EXPLICITLY ALLOWED vendor specific extension field for EXACTLY the purpose it was built for in the Kerberos specification. It's in the protocol for a reason. Being that was written by the IBM guys back when NT was the next OS/2 I sympothize (as a developer) with MS having to maintain someone elses subsystem every time they tried to make NT better.
And I say this rarely to (valid) points such as this, but... who cares. That subsystem was horrible. How about we worry about what's going on now, rather than bitch about things that no doubt happened in the past and no doubt we not 'good'.
My guess is you're not trying to do a Dr. Dos upgrade to Win3.x beta right now. After all we're talking about going Window shop to linux and vice versa. OK, so long as we don't get into generalizations. I guess as a developer, they've only put money into the my pockets (and bank accounts).
Just remember, "Everybody hurts.... sometimes...."
-malakai
Re:Will everybody do the same? (Score:3, Insightful)
" Word, Excel, and Powerpoint formats have been released by MS"
Not all of it. Some of it relies on OLE so it can not be used on any other OS. Some of it is patented.
"When you roll out Word 97, it by default maintains compatability with Word 95."
I think he meant it the other way. MS arbitrarily changed the word format for a minor upgrade. This forced people to upgrade to 97 when they got files written in 97 and 95 would not open it. By default word did not save documents in RTF or 95 format. He was not talking about backward compatibility.
"OPTIONAL FEATURES YOU MAY CHOOSE TO USE. SQL 92 "
MS SQL server by default uses case insensitive collation which is not SQL 92 compliant. That's just one I bet I can find a few more if I dig around.
" Active X is a standard."
Very funny! Which standard body approved it?
"You can do it if you'd like, it's well documented."
If it was easy it would have been done but it's damned near impossible. Besides who knows what inside is patented.
" your C# code will work on Linux."
Well except that you can't code GUI and Database which makes it just about useless outside of
"As for HTML that only works in IE, this is a subject we could spend hours on."
You are conveniently overlooking the many "extensions" IE supports. I know you have to do that because (apparently) it's your job to spread MS FUD here but we all have visited sites which are useless in non IE borwsers. From vbscript to activeX controls, to proprietary tags. Embrace and extend.
"God forbid they use an EXPLICITLY ALLOWED vendor specific extension field for EXACTLY the purpose it was built for in the Kerberos specification. It's in the protocol for a reason."
The guys who programmed the protocol never even imagined that somebody would use that field and not document it. Furthermore they never in a thousand years imagined that somebody would protect it as a trade secret. Sometimes people who are good, decent and honest presume everybody is the same they never once considered that evil people would take advantage of them. I bet they are all kicking themselves now for not releasing the original code as GPL. MS took the code and used it to shut out linux and freebsd shame on them.
" How about we worry about what's going on now,"
When you are talking about the character of somebody it's perfectly OK to point out evil acts in their past. Should we ignore the past records of child molesters, murderers and rapist because "they are not doing it now"?.
" OK, so long as we don't get into generalizations."
Nice. You totaly destroyed his argument.
" I guess as a developer, they've only put money into the my pockets (and bank accounts). "
Good for you! During the communist regime in the soviet republic people stood in bread lines but there were always a few who made out like bandits. In a totalitatian govt the masses starve and the party heads drive bentleys. Sure you made money but a bunch of people paid to buy crappy shit that broke, were coerced into buying shit they did not want, were denied competing products, yadda yadda yadda. I'm glad you made out great just recognize that a ton of people got ripped off.
Re:Will everybody do the same? (Score:2)
Re:Will everybody do the same? (Score:2)
Most of the desktop software that I use on Linux is available on Windows. OpenOffice, Mozilla, the Gimp, Emacs, LaTeX are all readily available. The software that isn't available generally has Windows equivalents.
The moral of the story is that Free Software allows you to avoid vendor lock in, which is good.
This tactic is not new... (Score:5, Insightful)
The two end up meeting in the hall, and notice each-other. Within literally hours you get phone calls and email saying to the extent "We really want your business, and well beat anything they offered".
Linux has to be prepared for this. Don't expect companies to back down from Linux competition simply because Linux is free. And don't expect companies not to use Linux as a expendable pawn in negotiations for better rates from existing vendors.
This is after all, how the free market works.
-malakai
Cost of Linux now measured in the negative? (Score:4, Insightful)
So the question for organizations now is, is it worth the upfront money Microsoft gives you to possibly be hooked into their products in the long run. Certainly you can use a possible linux move as leverage against MS prices, but in the end, is it better to use the leverage or to take Linux.
You have to presume that Microsoft has a plan of how they intend to make back this money in the long run. I can guarantee you that they aren't cutting half billion dollar checks at a whim without thorough belief that they'll make up for it. I'm sure that 5 years down the road Microsoft will be coming around to collect on those incentives. They'll collect by increasing licensing fees, further invading privacy, etc.
Re:Cost of Linux now measured in the negative? (Score:2)
Is it because it is public?
Cheers,
-b
Re:This tactic is not new... (Score:2)
First, get that in writing. Second, take it to the logical conclusion and have one of them pay you an infinite amount of cash.
Re:Will everybody do the same? (Score:2, Insightful)
In the end I'm sure Microsoft will be more than happy to give every world government who wants it some "free" MS software. Remember what the actual cost of the software and CDs is, and how they get to write it off as a tax deductable donation at the retail cost. Then note that after a few years of running under the shackles of Microsoft it's hard to escape. Then MS recoups their 'costs' in your renewed licensing fees. Or, more simply:
1) Give away 'free' software
2) ???
3) Profit
Re:Will everybody do the same? (Score:2)
It would not surprise me one bit to find out that a good chunk of this money will end up in the hands of politicians or their friends and families. There are also probably all kinds of back door deals in the works too.
To MS it's a trivial to spend a million or two bribing a third world country. The money goes a long way and they will get it back when the country upgrades.
Until open source advocates start bribing politicians MS will win.
do the same? doesn't matter (Score:2)
But it doesn't matter, this HURTS.
First off, there's the simple fact that Linux made it onto the table, and it took Bill Gates himself to go 'bring back the account.' That's quite an endorsement Microsoft has given Linux, right there.
Second, Linux made it onto the table, here and in Norway. Simply getting onto the table is new. Maybe for the next few rounds Linux will get onto the table as a bargaining ploy. But one of these times it's going to be a WIN.
Third, Microsoft is sitting on a big pile of cash, just about everyone knows that. But now a big part of their invincible image has become that pile of cash. It's no longer completely fluid, it has become an essential holding. Besides, the death of a thousand paper cuts is perhaps more likely than a big wound. So add up X-Box subsidies, third-world givaways, European givaways, (Norway, anyone?) and no doubt some 'License V6 adjustments' to keep customers in the fold, and it's going to be tough to keep that wad of cash.
That cash is also only part of the image. The Gates trip to Peru chips away, License V6 chips away, the DOJ trial took a big chunk out, etc.
Re:Will everybody do the same? (Score:2)
If you honestly believe they're "just 'helping' a 3d world country compute" - you're hopelessly naive.
Ahh, I see. (Score:4, Funny)
Microsoft: Ok, here's some free Software.
Re:Ahh, I see. (Score:2)
Microsoft: Ok, here's some free Software.
More like:
Peru: We've decided to use Free Software.
Microsoft: Here's a few more decimal places for your personal bank account, Mr. President.
Re:Ahh, I see. (Score:5, Insightful)
MS: Here, have some more drugs -- for free.
Take it and run (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Take it and run (Score:4, Insightful)
RTFA.
"Peru's President Alejandro Toledo was at Microsoft Corp. headquarters on Monday, where he signed a deal to put the Internet into the Andean nation's schools and modernize its government."
The key phrase here is "signed a deal". Not that I wouldn't love to see them sell off all the software on eBay to fund their Open Source initiative.
Re:But this is a government. (Score:2)
Not for a lousy $550,000 they won't.
XP in the living room? Oh, great. (Score:2, Funny)
~Philly
Re:XP in the living room? Oh, great. (Score:2)
if we subtract the 'free' software total... (Score:3, Interesting)
This seems eerily similar to that settlement involving 'free' software to public schools.
Re:if we subtract the 'free' software total... (Score:3, Interesting)
Yep. It's free until the BSA comes knocking in a year or so.
These donations seem a bit too much like those sales pitches for DSL that tell you ``only $19.95 a month' And then, very quitely, ``after the first two months regular prices apply. Other restrictions apply.'' Accepting a donation from Microsoft is, I think, a good indication that you're either: a) soft in the head, b) a natural born sucker, or c) both a) and b).
As you should when offered drugs: Just Say No.
Re:if we subtract the 'free' software total... (Score:2)
Don't get me wrong, this particular deal is nothing short of a bribe. However, Peru is not your typical company. The BSA might seem scary to an American company, but Peru has their own military and their own laws. Peru has, in the past, expropriated entire industries stealing billions from foreign investors.
Peru is not scared of Microsoft, Peruvian officials are simply susceptible to bribes.
Call to code... (Score:2, Interesting)
It sounds to me like someone (Mandrake maybe?) needs to come out with a Linux distro that mates well with the Wal-Boxen [slashdot.org] that are coming out now so that a plug-and-play competitor is available. I'd sure buy one (especially if it could also be DirecTV compatible somehow). I know TiVo's out there and has fine Linux support but an open-source variation that doesn't require a monthly fee would be something I'd be interested in.
Its Basic Economics... (Score:5, Insightful)
I own a lemonade stand that sells $5 lemonade. I have about 50 customers every 2 hours, giving me a nice customer base.
You see how I'm gouging people, so you open a lemonade stand for $1, and attempt to show people how to make lemonade at home for under $1.
I'll see what you are doing, and sell my lemonade for $0.50, which is less than it takes for you to make lemonade. For you to compete is for you to lose money. I can afford it, because I have capital sitting in a bank account. You go out of business, and I raise my price back to $5.
This is what MS is doing!
Its basic economics, people.
Now, don't give me the "linux is free" angle. Use the anology, but instead of money, use familiarity with the product, and the popularity with MS products vs open source ones.
Re:Its Basic Economics... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'll see what you are doing, and sell my lemonade for $0.50, which is less than it takes for you to make lemonade. For you to compete is for you to lose money. I can afford it, because I have capital sitting in a bank account. You go out of business, and I raise my price back to $5.
This is what MS is doing!
And this is why they will utimately fail against Linux. Because no matter what they do, because Linux is not owned by a particular company, because it's free and GPL'd, it will always be there as a competitor. This is what scares MS the most - they can't buy out Linux or bankrupt it.
Re:Its Basic Economics... (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree with most of what you say. There's no doubt that MS is aiming all guns at Linux (and is prolly scared). There's no doubt that Linux will always survive. MS's strategy is to keep linux low-key and claim standards and popularity.
This article is a perfect example. Get all kids to know MS, so they will be comfortable with Windows, and uncomfortable with Linux.
They should just brain wash people. (Score:3, Funny)
You know, every line of code that you write for an Open Source project is causeing the suffering of hundreds of programmers here in Redmond. (Shows lines and lines of disgusting slovenly poor programmers working 20 hours a day) These hard working americans can hardly afford the payments on their homes and audis. So please, don't use Open Source software, it's communistic, unamerican and causes countless suffering for millions.
Seriously, a couple of years of brain washing on TV might just work for them.
Re:Its Basic Economics... (Score:2, Insightful)
Microsoft realise this (which is why their prices aren't going down), but they're running around like headless chickens trying to work out how to kill linux.
Well, here's one customer that Microsoft will never have
Lets hope that their X-Box sales losses and politician bribery will seriously deplete their billions of reserve cash.
Re:Its Basic Economics... (Score:2, Insightful)
True, but they can make it politically/economically infeasable to use it.
Consider that if Peru's gov't accepts this
It's NOT a simple equation, Linux cost vs MS cost. There are squishy human factors in there, too, and MS well knows how to work those to its best support. MS may well be scared of Linux, but that doesn't mean they're totally helpless in its face.
They know what to do, and they're doing it.
Re:Its Basic Economics... (Score:4, Insightful)
How about.
School wants to save money and Install Linux.
Microsoft donates computers/software (for free) and onsite configuration. School saves money.
Year later, contract is up, Microsoft wants to charge for new licenses. They want upgrades fees for new OS for every computer. They also want upgrade fees on m$ office updates, server software, database, etc...
Now repeat that on a whole school district, where everything is now M$ based, and the costs to change everything away from M$ would be too great of a cost.
Americans have a problem looking 1+ years in the future, they dont see the BRICK WALL. We seem to be a "Show me NOW" culture. We need to have our state and federal governments use open source software NOW. (There's the culture buzz word)
Whatever (Score:2)
1st: He's talking about Microsoft giving away software that they normally charge for, such as this case with Peru, not charging for software that is normally free.
2nd: Dual licensing makes no difference to the free-ness of GPL'd software. Once you release something under the GPL or similar license, you can't unrelease it. Sure, you can license it to someone else under different terms if you own the copyright, but you still can't take back the GPL'd code. If you decide not to maintain or improve it, someone else will.
Yeah but... (Score:3, Funny)
I've had some piss-poor lemonade in my times. Maybe that 5 dollar lemonade taste better? Maybe they spent more money on sugar, or use a cold filtering processes.....
What matters in the end, is what the user experiences. If they are refreshed, and enjoyed their 5 dollar experience, the so what if they are paying more? Thank god we aren't some poor socialist country where I have to sell my lemonade at cost in order to be a good comrade. Thank god I can make money off my countrymen, and attempt to rise above them through my own hard work (and it's hard, whether i invented lemonade or not, it's hard running the company).
Can't afford the 5 dollar lemonade? Feel left out? Stuck with drinking government issue, or homemade lemonade? Well then, this must be an incentive for you. Incentives are rare, so put it to good use.
-malakai
Re:Yeah but... (Score:4, Insightful)
So what if your $5 lemonade is awful? It gets sour quickly and has a terrible aftertaste. A few times you buy this lemonade and the glass you got it in has a hole in it and your lemonade spills out. Since this $5 lemonade company has removed all other competition through "hard work" and now demandes that instead of charging for every glass, now you are charged for every sip you take.
Not only that, but in the future this $5 lemonade company won't let you but anything else except for their lemonade in that glass. So your stuck, paying for every sip of lemonade and then being forced to drink more and therefore buying more.
Yeah, that great. Because this lemonade (with that extra sugar that you can't remove from it) has given you cavities. And since you live in a non-socialist country that allowed the lemonade maker to thrive no matter how corrupt their practices are they have destroyed all other alternatives. By now they also own the water stand and are probably your dentist.
So thumbs up to you dude. Great insight on it all.
not quite (Score:2)
Not really. Microsoft's monopoly power in the software market is mostly due to the barriers-to-entry, and not due to the ability to undercut pricing by taking a loss on manufacturing. Current barriers include (but are not limited to):
- startup costs - it costs a lot of money and time to develop a software "product." Remember that "Open Source != "free." It also takes money to set up for packaging and pressing disks and advertising, to get sufficient product to market and in the public eye while it's still "fresh."
- currently installed user base - users already familiar with and using one product will prefer it to other products unless they are substantially "better," because of the learning curve and capital already invested. "Better" can be either a) same functionality at a lower price, or b) higher functionality, at a price determined by user experience with current products.
If Microsoft was really using their monopoly power to undercut pricing by "dumping" - that is, buy selling at a loss, they would be charging less than the couple of bucks for cds and books that it costs them to make and ship a product now, assuming they've already recovered their development expenses. And before you try to counter with the idea that OEMs get some products (OS, maybe some productivity tools) for almost free, remember that MS probably ships them 1 or 2 copies of the products, in CD or data tapes or whatever form, for them to pre-install on their systems, and then also charges them for "backup" media for each machine, unless the OEMs are licensed to make their own backup media, etc.Re:Its Basic Economics... (Score:2)
The problem with this is that Linux not only has a lower price, but it costs far less to fund Linux development than Windows development. That's why Ballmer is going around giving interviews in which he admits that Microsoft is no longer the discount solution. Even with $40 billion in the bank Microsoft can't buy off enough customers to force Free Software vendors out of business (especially when you start talking about IBM and their Linux push). Well, they probably could do it, but not without spooking investors on Wall Street. Since Microsoft management is heavily invested in Microsoft, you can bet that they won't do anything to upset the short term stock price, even if it would be good for Microsoft in the long run.
Microsoft's edge is that they aren't selling a commodity like lemonade. Ripping out Microsoft requires that you learn how to use some other system, which can be very expensive. However, this sort of momentum only carries you so far.
Re:Its Basic Economics... (Score:2)
There is one slight problem with this analogy. "Capital-F" Free Software is immortal. It cannot die. There is no business to kill off, there is no way to make the software go away, and there is no way to undercut them (except to actually *pay* your customers to use your software, which is what Microsoft is doing here).
Logically speaking, you will eventually drain away your capital while trying to best "small-F" free software and go bankrupt yourself.
Re:Its Basic Economics (!?) (Score:2)
If what Microsoft is doing is illegal, then what about what RedHat is doing? They not only give the software away, they even throw in source code, and make it easy to install this software over the Internet.
Besides, what do you bet Microsoft ends up making a profit on the Peruvian government. They throw in $550,000 in perks, and get a nice deal. If Microsoft makes money, then its not dumping, its merely being a good businessman.
Re:Its Basic Economics (!?) (Score:2)
The funny thing is that's exactly what they are doing with the X-Box, yet they are not succeding with the tactic. Is it still illegal if nobody buy it?
This is not what MS is doing with the XBox. They are competing with Sony/Nintendo (notice the price for the PS2 and XBOX are the same).
Dumping, as a business practice, is a moral dilemma, thus difficult to quantify.
Windows XP Media Center cost.... (Score:2)
But really... would need much more than maybe a low GHZ P4, with like... 512 MB of ram, a sound card, a decent video card, and a few other minor things to have a media center? Can anybody find anything else about this? Otherwise you might as well just buy a dreamcast... it can play Video CD's, MP3's, check your e-mail, etc... the only thing it can't do is burn CD's and play DVD's...
Re:Windows XP Media Center cost.... (Score:2)
When was the last time 'copy protection' actually stopped 'copying' (i.e. large scale bootleg CD factories) instead of presenting an inconvenience to the end user (i.e. your new 'protected' cd wont play in your mac).
Re:Windows XP Media Center cost.... (Score:2)
I hope he's right about that cost too. Combine that with the recent story about the TV networks wanting to place ads on the bottom part of the screen during the broadcasts and you'll have people turning off their TVs in HUGE numbers. Who'll need a Microsoft Media Center then?
Besides, if I had $1000-$2000 to spend on entertainment hardware, a set top box wouldn't even be on my list. Hell, I'm down to about 4-5 hours per week of TV anyway. (Now rented movies are another thing altogether :-) ) What benefit would anyone's set top box provide to me?
Re:Windows XP Media Center cost.... (Score:2)
I've been running a media center off my celeron 433, 128 ram, SBlive, and a low end agp card w/tv-out for years now. Total cost these days: maybe $100. It handles every type of media format I can throw at it just fine. Toss in a $200 160GB harddrive and I'd have more storage than I know what to do with.
Why can't someone come up with something like this for the mass consumer market? Oh yeah.. XP runs like absolute crap unless you're in the Ghz range.
Good posting on Advogato (Score:2, Informative)
(Unfortunately the 3rd, and most informative, comment is by a guy miffed that
This is going to turn into a racket. (Score:2, Interesting)
This would be entertaining at least.
Dope dealers do the same... (Score:2, Insightful)
If the Peruvians fall for this, they deserve what happens to them: Forever paying premium dollars for really lousy products from a compamy with an exceptionally bad attitude.
More background info on Advogato and on 24horas (Score:3, Informative)
One of the comments links to a article with a picture of the president and Bill Gates: PRESIDENTE TOLEDO SUSCRIBE CONVENIO CON BILL GATES [24horas.com.pe]
media center? (Score:2)
Triv
Oh, the pain! A little discourse analysis (Score:2, Offtopic)
Also, did anybody else catch the marketroid jargon in the puffy-poo press release at microsoft.com? Wow, how many times can they use the word "freedom" in six column inches anyway? This from the same company who's pushing Palladium.
And what was that about a computer going from being "a tool for productivity" (ok, if you say so) to being "a device capable of entertainment, communications and so much more." I don't like either term in that zero-sum equation. (Can't we just define computers as tools or something and leave "productivity" [whatever that's supposed to mean, really] out of it?) It's a little agendist for my taste, and all of that agenda is (natch) Microsoft. (Pardon me for stating the obvious.)
I hate to lapse into darkly paranoid hypotheses here, but is this yet another multitentacled strategy to turn the Internet into TV with fewer moving parts? I don't think I like either term in that zero-sum equation, either...especially since I happen to like being able to create my own content (and look at whatever I want whenever I want), and I mostly quit doing TV years ago.
Heh, they should be so lucky (Score:2)
Note: I'm not a raving CLI/it's got to be tough or it's crap advocate here. Ease of use is a Good Thing...but dumbing down interfaces so there's only one thing (or one restricted set of things) you can do at any one time is not only bad design, it's extremely limiting. Not to mention frustrating, even for ordinary folks like my mom and dad, who occasionally do find themselves going, "But why can't I...?"
Besides which, the satellite menu thingie is harder to use than its cable equivalent is...or (gasp!) flipping the dial ever was. Net result the same. Except that now there's 250 channels and nothing you want to watch.
Which doesn't precisely apply to computers, except, hmm, Microsoft? Control freaks? Naaah.
What a deal! (Score:2)
How generous to give up $20 dollars, 50 copies of XP and 3 hours of tech support.
No longer banana republics...... (Score:2, Funny)
(A)Micro-Republics
(B)Blue Screen Republics
(C)Bill-me Republics
(D)Restart Republics
In addition we should probably start to redefine
politics through the mouse, i.e are you a
right-click fascist or a left-click anarchist?
(I would have suggested Mouse-Republic, but that option was taken long ago by the great god Disney....)
Microsoft "who do we want to own today?"
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re:No longer banana republics...... (Score:2)
Middle-click anarchist. Two-button mice stink.
Media Center (Score:2, Interesting)
Windows XP Media Center == TiVo on steroids
Seriously, this is nothing new. It is also not a "Personal Computer." I wonder how M$ will handle the copyright issues with recording TV programs, or even if they will allow you to edit out the commercials.
All in all, they are just taking a "PC" and further limiting its usage. No thanks, I think I'll pass on that one.
saw it coming (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah I wish I could find the earlier comment were I said this is exactly what would happen in Peru. Well, no matter, this the usual Microsoft tactic. It worked in Mexico, now Peru. Will it work in Norway, a wealthier nation?
Must be nice to be able to print your own money like that: here's 1,000 CD copies of MS Foobar Pro, each worth $5,000 !! So we just made a donation of $5,000,000 and it's tax deductible (not that we pay taxes). And they'll still have to pay for upgrades. Beautiful! Let's see Open Source beat that!!
Re:saw it coming (Score:4, Insightful)
That's a good point. Who's calculating the value of this donation? Microsoft. Based on what? The retail shelf price?
Donations should be valued according to what it costs the vendor to provide them. Peru is not giving MS upteen million dollars. MS is not providing Peru with software that they could have sold somewhere else. They are simply printing money.
Since congress is so hot-to-trot about corporate oversight these days, maybe they should take a closer look at this particular form of bullshit accounting.
Re:saw it coming (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:saw it coming (Score:2)
Windows Media Centre (Score:2, Offtopic)
I've been toying with the idea of a media hub style PC for several months now but several things have stood in my way. My Wife hates Linux; She knows what almost any penguinista will ignore, that MS products are easier to use than Linux products.
I've also been having difficulty overcoming the need for a wireless keyboard and mouse cluttering up the coffee table. Add to that the difficulty in finding software that will work just fine at 640x480 on a TV screen and I'm glad that MS is doing this.
If anything, it will inspire a whole bunch of hackers to produce a GPL'd competitor. I also hope it means people will start thinking about GUIs specifically designed for media hubs (i.e. Burning, recording, playlists etc etc)
Of course, it won't work with my digital cable box or my neighbour's digital satellite box. It'll probably speed the **AA's of this world into crypto encoding TV, Radio et al to be non-recordable by these new hubs.
The media hub is a really complex piece of kit. Recording and managing (music|video) files and playlists isn't easy. Add the complexity of networking, removable devices, offline storage or burning, the ever present digital rights management and making it all easy to use? That's not a job I want to undertake
If the end game of this is a true standards based (i.e. works with firewire and ethernet) media hub then I'm all for it. I just hope I can add hard drives to it whenever I want...
How can a company (Score:2, Interesting)
How can Microsoft be so proud of being so obviously a pimp?
M$ did it !!! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:M$ did it !!! (Score:2)
All those years they looked the other way while people and some companies ran illegal copies of Windows. That was essentially the same thing as giving it away.
Then Windows was everywhere, and it became time to start turning the screws to squeeze money out of the entities using the illegal copies-- they fired off 'audit warnings' and sent in the BSA jackboots. Next thing you know, all those illegal copies have turned into legitimate licenses because Windows was too deeply ingrained and could not easily be removed.
Now they just give away free copies of their stuff... those free licenses are not perpetual, the next round of 'manufactured-need' upgrades will have to be paid for-- but by then the Windows tentacles will have established their death-grip and the most hassle-free way to go forward will be to just pay them. Customer laziness has been Microsoft's best friend in the establishment of their market dominance.
It really and truly is the 'first one's free, and you can't BEGIN to imagine the cost down the line' "dope dealer" method, as others have posted earlier in this discussion.
~Philly
Donations (Score:3, Interesting)
How many people here have actually read the article? Everyone is going off about how this MS move will keep quiet any Nunez-like responses against Microsoft. This is an agreement towards Peru's education system, not government institutions which is what the bill addresses. Now, yes most educational institutions are controlled by the government in Peru but there are enought non educational governmental institutions left for an M$free world. Now lets just hope Nunez steps up to the plate once again and makes sure that happens.
Pushers and Junkies (Score:2, Insightful)
Isn't this what a pusher does when a junkie tries to come clean? Give the junkie a free hit to keep him hooked.
Well of course... (Score:2)
XP Media Center (Score:2)
I had an Apple ][e with a Color RGB monitor, and I got a seperate TV tuner for Xmas with RCA hookups. I could flip a switch and 'watch TV on my computer'. Audio was routed through my stereo.
Later, when I got a VCR (you know, the 150lb top load ones!), :P
I was able to RECORD TV 'on my computer'
Re:XP Media Center (Score:2)
Just goes to show yah how ``innovative'' Microsoft is. Rehashing old Apple ideas.
CEO (Chief Evil Officer) (Score:4, Funny)
Bill Gates is desperate to keep Peru on his side, so he can finish his high-tech mountain stronghold lair high in the Andes. He's still jealous of Dr. Evil's hollow volcano.
as the church lady says... (Score:2, Funny)
Couple of things (Score:2)
As for Peru, $500 000 is somewhat less than the $150 million that Microsoft gave to the South African government a while ago. I wonder if that reflects on the level of Cash that Microsoft eventually expects to get back from the 50% of South Africa's population that is actually employed, usually at wages of around $350/month? Or is it because Microsoft feels that they have a better chance of owning South African politicians?
Here in Peru (Score:2, Interesting)
A big point in the presidential campain of the current president was a 'modernizing the schools' project. In practice that only means get a big donation of PCs on the schools and some software to run on it. Ah, also make sure there's a phone line somewhere to get online (yes, mostly with POTS modems)
So, it's not surprising that M$ wants to be the one providing the software. Get the kids tinking windows==pc==computer, and internet==IE
not only that, but the local IT industry will have to be 'compatible' with whatever is everywhere, so that's who will pay: any company that wants to do anything with this will have to have M$ systems.
It was absolutely improbable to get the Free Software law approved. Nobody (I mean NOBODY) in the goverment would try to get rid of existing software. It just won't work. The first time they get a
what would be possible (but still difficult) and much more important would be to require all documents in an open format. the Villanueva proposal mentions that, but briefly.
I can't imagine a government-paid sysadmin saying to M$ (or any big software company) "I want your software but only if it's Open Source". But I can imagine saying "I want your software but only if it uses open format documents".
And M$ could reply "no problem, use RTF" and hope they'll forget and use
How to beat microsoft at their own game (Score:2, Funny)
2. Burn CD's.
3. Charge $1 million per CD.
4. Donate over $100 million worth of software to Peru, far exceeding MS "generosity". Point them to support groups to provide the equivlient of services offered.
Figures to Scale (Score:2)
Scaled to GDP per capita it's about 4 million. Statistics: you pay your money, ya takes your pick.
TWW
Re:Figures to Scale (Score:2)
BTW BillG is worth ~the same as Peru.
Re:Figures to Scale (Score:2)
That's why I think the larger figure is a better guide as it relates to what the government would have had to remove from other programmes (such as social security and housing). The 550K will, as you say, only buy 550K worth of computing but the 550K saved will have a much bigger effect on the government's budget in other areas.
Of course, an even bigger win would be to save all the money they currently pay MS.
TWW
Free Software in the US (Score:2, Informative)
MS has done this with companies in the United States as well. I work at a non-profit. We have very little funds. And, MS donates a lot of software to our organization. Because, I believe if they didn't we'd look more for open source solutions.
Now, they aren't making a dime off of it in the short run. But, they are keeping employees here well trained in the MS apps.
Peru's Taking a Giant Step Backward (Score:2)
Great. Someone managed to convince the Peruvian president that having the internet in their schools will make their country a better place to live. I wonder what Peru will be like if this donation makes the Peruvian legislature decide to adopt Microsoft software as the sole product used on the government. Well, personally, I think it won't be anything good.
One doesn't have to read too many education-related journals to find studies that indicate that introducing high-technology solutions into schools rarely produces the end result touted by the people who push for it. The problems in education are hardly due to a lack of high-tech. But that doesn't stop companies like Microsoft who see a donation as a tax-free means of indoctrinating future customers.
In the long run, I suspect that it'll pretty much kill any software industry that Peru might now have or hope to have. (Perhaps an ulterior motive on MS's part, eh?). The country will wind up spending a fortune on keeping current with new Microsoft products. Money that would have been much better spent on improving other things in Peru. Then, some years from now, the Peruvian government will be asking themselves why things aren't any better than they were in 2002. Maybe they'll come to the realization that they would have been much better off listening to Dr. Nunez, adopting a technology that would have put the country in a much better position to develop a local industry (one that could have possibly resulted in creating jobs exporting software and/or services to neighboring countries), and helping themselves than the course they did follow of taking the easy way out and accepting Microsoft's self-serving generocity. All for the immediate gratification of having a PC in the classroom with software created by the richest man in the world. (For some bureaucrats this is, apparently, a feeling that's better than sex.)
It's the old ``Give a man a fish...'' concept. This donation doesn't help Peru do anything more than (eventually) send money to the MS (for upgrades, etc.) and to be consumers instead of creators.
Note: Before anyone slams me for being anti-Microsoft (true as that may be ;-) ), it's more of a case of being anti-sleazy-corporation. I know of other large corps that go through these motions of wanting to help out in the third-world through programs like this MS donation and it's all a sham. When you listen closely to what they propose (and you won't hear it in a press release ; someone would catch on.), you find that what they're really after is getting XYZ Corp. seen as a nice bunch of people who the locals will eventually turn to when they finally have enough money to spend. There's no altruism there at all; it's all PR directed toward increasing market share. After you hear a couple of these presentations it makes you sick.
Escalation - A chronlogy of events (Score:5, Informative)
Except Mr. Hamilton's talkings, which were not recorded AFAIK, there is written evidence of all the facts stated above.
In addition, let me point out that, if Microsoft is pricing its consulting services at the same rate it did for their agreement [granvalparaiso.cl] with the Chilean Ministry of Education, the $550K "donation" means just 5000 person/hours of consulting.
Freedom (Score:5, Funny)
And I said unto Linus: "Grant me a boon or never again shall I touch Linux! I will rather take my fortunes with the Prince of Evil!"
And thus spake Linus: "Thou hast the option to do so, for I have given thee freedom."
And, overcome by happiness, I sank unto my knees and cried: "Never again shall I doubt thee, for I am indeed free!"
Re:$550,000 in software... (Score:4, Insightful)
Donated software - is not (necessarily) free (Score:2)
As the article I read states "software, cash and consulting services", I imagine MSFT will be providing support.
It doesn't always work out that way, I read years ago that in the '70s W.R. Hearst 'gave' a dismantled monastery to the city of San Francisco (probably reaping a nice tax benefit). However as he neglected to provide any funds to assemble the stones, they sat in Golden Gate Park, rain washed off the identifying marks (which goes where) and thus today there's just a pile of stones.
Anyhow, in the automotive industry, my uderstanding is that most of the *profit* is in 'support', auto manufacturerers typically sell the vehicle at or near their manufacturing cost and make their money on parts and service.
Re:$550,000 in software... (Score:2)
Oh come on. There is a per-copy media cost for CDs and books. Bill could be out $20K-$30K over this deal.
Cold War All Over Again! (Score:2, Interesting)
You'll remember that the superpower US government tried to bribe all those Latin American countries away from Communism (O.S./free software) during the Cold War. There's no proof that they were particularly successful, but they did lead those countries right into the hands of military dictators like Noriega and his army (Bill Gates and lawyers)
Maybe this time communism will win.
How to come off as both obtuse and naive... (Score:2)
Naive - Unsuspecting or credulous
Obtuse - The inability to distinguish jack shit
If Microsoft is just being generous, why should they single out Peru??? See how easy that is??? Just a little skepticism goes a long way...
Imagine what a lot of skepticism will do!!!
You need to learn to distinguish between crack pot conspiracy thoeries and basic run-of-the-mill corruption and business tactics. Giving away freebies to hook in a customer is about as run-of-the-mill as they come...
Re:Buying time... (Score:2, Informative)
They have a LAAARGE warchest, in the Billions of dollars; they can afford to give their stuff away, and justify it to stockholders as "preservation of existing markets against increased competitor marketshare" or some such, for a very long time.