Used Books: An Actual Internet Success Story 447
theodp writes: "An Actual Internet Success Story explains how, in just a few years, the Internet has transformed the world into a huge marketplace for used books, utterly transforming a business that had gone pretty much unobserved for centuries. The Net has changed how we buy and think about books - someone in Illinois can easily buy a cheap used hardback over the Net from a New York dealer, read it and then resell it to someone in California, having spent, in effect, only a few dollars. According to the story, the increase in the number of used books sold is staggering, maybe 100 times what it was in 1995, and now accounts for more than 15 percent of Amazon's sales. Tales are told of used book dealers lining up nine hours before a library sale to get 'free money,' cutting deals with thrift-store managers and library-sale organizers to avoid 'feeding frenzy' fights, volunteering at the Salvation Army to get first dibs on donations, and offering review copies for half price on the Net weeks before a book is even published."
Practically stealing? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Practically stealing? (Score:3, Funny)
BTW, where do you hide your books
Warmest regards,
Guy Montag
In other news (Score:2)
Re:Practically stealing? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Practically stealing? (Score:2)
Re:Practically stealing? (Score:2, Informative)
Restricting book sales (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Practically stealing? (Score:4, Interesting)
This is why college textbook publishers change the edition every few years. The slight changes are enough that using older versions when the professor is basing his/her course over the new one becomes unfeasable.
So why not music, too? (Score:2)
The courts have already ruled on "first sale". Once the publisher sells the copy, they have no say over what you do with it, wether its read it and throw it out, give it away, sell it, burn it, etc.
Yeah, that makes sense. I can sell my moldy old couch (this is a hypothetical example: no one in their right mind would buy my couch) because it is, after all, mine. So I'm wondering why this doesn't apply to music in the form of mp3s over the internet? After all, I've sold used CDs to music stores before. Suppose I decide to give my CD to the store instead without payment. And then suppose instead of giving it to a store, I give it to someone over the internet. And then suppose instead of giving them a CD, I give them a lower-quality mp3. Why don't I have the right to do this?
Clearly I'm missing something here. Little help, Anyone?
GMD
Distribution is the problem... (Score:4, Interesting)
Anyway, that is pretty much the equivalent of giving your .mp3s away for free over the net from your ripped CDs, is it not? The problem isn't necessarily the copying, I suspect, but rather the distribution.
I imagine that it is pretty much OK to transcribe a book to your computer to transfer to your PDA, but you are not allowed to post that copyrighted work to your web page and give it away. On the same note I imagine (even though the RIAA is trying to take even this away) that it is pretty much OK to rip your CD for use in your portable .mp3 player, but you are not allowed to post those songs to your web page and give them away.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but that is pretty much how it works, right?
Re:Distribution is the problem... (Score:2)
Yup, I guess you're right.
After all;
mv != cp
move != copy
moveright != copyright
Re:So why not music, too? (Score:2)
Re:So why not music, too? (Score:3, Informative)
In your example, you are taking a copy of the music off of the medium and distributing it sans the disc. Unless the owner give you permission to do so, you are not allowed to do that.
Data is not a tangable object; you can't pick up an idea. You can do anything with the medium that you would please you. However, unless the owner gives you permission to do so, you can not take the data and distribute it independantly of the medium.
Re:you liar -- you haven't read the article (Score:3, Informative)
I might not have been clear when I said "own". What I meant by "own" is that that words in the book or the music on the CD are that of the author. You can't claim that they are yours, even if you bought the book or the CD. It is hard to use ideas of ownership for ideas. As I said, you can't pick up and hold words or music. They aren't tangible things.
The author of a work does own the rights to the work, for a limited time as defined by copyright laws. Once the copyright expires, the work becomes part of the public domain. Yet, you still don't "own" the work. I am again using "own" as definded above. The words are still those of the author, you can't claim that they are yours. Your use of the work is no longer restricted but you still don't own the work. The public as a whole does.
So, when you buy a book or CD or other work, you own the physical stuff that the work is distributed on. But you don't own what is contained on the physical stuff.
Re:Practically stealing? (Score:2)
At least some authors/publishers are not that dumb [baen.com].
Re:Practically stealing? (Score:2, Interesting)
Cost? $15 a month for the books that are started that month. And, you only pay for months you want something from.
Could this be the fiture in publishing? Maybe... might just be a flop, but hey, at least it's getting tried.
Re:Practically stealing? (Score:2, Funny)
They aren't the only one... (Score:5, Interesting)
They made more money in one month selling their inventory on Ebay than they did in a year selling inthe "real" world. They pointed out all the really good stuff was gone, and I wasn't going to find what I was looking for.
All were quite happy with the situation and planned to continue selling at online auctions.
A side note is that in the last week I've sold 5 books on Amazon that I no longer wanted. I got decent money, too, not like the $1 or so at a garage sale. I *HATE* throwing books out -- they need to go to a good home.
Re:They aren't the only one... (Score:2, Insightful)
On the other hand, you can find just about ANYTHING on ebay/amazon.com/etc. You don't have to really drive anywhere to get to it (unless you work during the day and UPS requires a signature.. how annoying). The person selling gets closer to what the item is actually worth because there is more of a market.
In a way it is more convenient but less personal. I suppose that is the way society has always been heading in the technology era we're in. We have to take the good with the bad...
Re:They aren't the only one... (Score:3, Insightful)
Not necessarily...
And you state why yourself. In many cases, pre-internet, a lot of good stuff would languish in little shops. Sure, there were a lot of buyers out there in the world who would pay a lot for them, but among the shoppers who might find it in the given shop, you couldn't get as much. The shops only had limited floor space and would ultimately have to part with the item before the "right" buyer wondered by.
Markets that are more accessible help both buyers and sellers, but in different ways. Before, serious collectors had to travel extensively or have networks to help them find obscure items. Now, they can just login to the Internet, but they have to compete with a lot of other people.
The benefit to sellers is obvious. To buyers, you are more likely to find that item you are looking for, which ultimately is the best kind of affordability. Before, you often couldn't get things without extensive and expensive travel.
Re: online auctions (Score:3, Interesting)
The good thing of course, is that this benefits sellers, and thus encourages a thriving auction market. If I can't afford to bid on an item that I can't get locally anyway, I guess nobody's hurt by that. The downside, as you say is that the often financially risky proposition of running a "brick-and-mortar" physical storefront somewhere is not as compelling for would-be retailers. So collectible items like comic books etc. may become completely unavailable, except online and in very large cities. One of the two local gaming/comic shops in my city just closed down to become a strictly online business (putting at least one fangirl out of work in the process...)
Re: online auctions (Score:2, Interesting)
This is something I noticed long before eBay... Once upon a time I would attend (real world) auctions and I noticed that quite often people would get so caught up in the frenzy of bidding that they would bid well beyond what something was worth. A few auctions were so bad that the bulk of the people in the room would be laughing (loudly!) at the 2-3 idoits in the room who just couldn't let something go... I think this is the prime motivation for folks to hold an auction instead of just placing it up for sale some other way. Furthermore, opening up the bidding audience to a nationwide set of bidders only increases the chances that there will be an obsessive-compulsive type bidding against you... Even better for the seller!
With that in mind, I think the Internet has affected "real world" sales in two distinct ways... eBay has made it incredibly easy for folks to auction something. Before you had to have a decent amount of stuff and hire an auctioneer, now all you need is a digital camera and a credit card. In cases where a seller has not gone the eBay route, the mere fact something can be sold to a wider audience will raise the value of that item. If I sell a relatively obscure book in a real world shop, chances are pretty low that someone will come in and buy it. But if I can open my audience up to a larger group of folks looking for that book, the value rises. (Higher demand, fixed supply -> price goes up.)
-z
Re:They aren't the only one... (Score:3, Insightful)
The other 2 you are talking about I remember and I think that at least one of them may be opening a store front again soon, also though there is that mega-comix store on International which does not help a smaller business in the area epically in such a small market.
Too bad most tourists don't buy comics.
The other 2 you are talking about I remember and I think that at least one of them may be opening a store front again soon, also though there is that mega-comix store on International which does not help a smaller business in the area epically in such a small market.
Too bad most tourists don't buy comics.
There are some things I do miss about the corner store. I am much more prone to pick up a new series or something I haven't seen if I have the opportunity to read through it a bit. Plus I always enjoyed "talking shop" with the owner or clerk for about 20 mins when I stopped in.
Now I just point and click and get exactly what I'm looking for. It's nice and convient and I can get something I could never find in the corner store but I do miss some of the more human aspects.
Conversely an Anmie storm in Columbus, OH has struck a nice balance. They have managed to make 80% of their business off the net and catalog sales however they still maintain a local storefront attached to the warehouse. It was great to go down there and if it was not up front, 90% of the time he had it in the back. Since he automated nearly everything you could still talk shop too.
I think we can strike balance with technology and brick and mortar, the markets just have to find it because in reality all this stuff is still very new.
Re:They aren't the only one... (Score:2)
Re:They aren't the only one... (Score:4, Interesting)
It's a rather sweetly viral approach.
rOD.
Re:They aren't the only one... (Score:2)
Re:They aren't the only one... (Score:2, Insightful)
Considering the amount of knowledge I've gained and fun I've had because of my locallibrary, I hope that instead of throwing out books, you'd actually donate them.
Libraries are good, as everyone has access to the material, librarians (in general) fight censorship, and help promote learning for the whole citizenship. What better home than that?
I figure it's better to give back to the community institutions that nurtured me and hopefully foster knowledge in another instead of making a few bucks on an auction.
Yeah but.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Yeah but.. (Score:2)
Sure, if you are into reading paperbacks for pleasure, it's not going to affect you as much, but if you were the bargian hunter type, then you might be facing some new professional competition.
the problem remains... (Score:4, Funny)
plus, used bookstores smell good.
and they usually have a cat.
Re:the problem remains... (Score:2)
Best of both worlds!
Re:Yeah but.. (Score:2)
My question is... so?
Seriously, as a business person, why NOT cater to a group that lets you maintain low overhead (only computers, internet connection, and storage space - instead of a retail presence, etc) and GLADLY pays you top dollar for your products? Who cares if this is only 2% of the population - niche markets make people rich every day. I think you underestimate the number of lazy people who are willing to pay to have products delivered to them.
It's changed the way I get used books.... (Score:4, Informative)
Amazon.com and B&N (and their associated sellers) have greatly changed that. I can find almost anything now and usually at a reasonable price. I looked for years to find copies of out-of-print and obscure books before and now it's pretty easy.
I expect it'll be a few years before we're able to get the majority of used-book stores on-line though. Most stores have far too much stock and too few resources to make that happen.
A great used bookstore (Score:2)
Used = good (Score:3, Interesting)
I have always been someone that likes to buy good stuff, but it's not always economically feasible. Of course, buying a great couch online from Oregon isn't the best idea when you live in New England, but these types of sites are there if you want to do it.
The strength of this scenario is that it is exactly the type of marketplace the net is suited for.
I guess I am saying I am a big fan of this, whether it be books or anything else. It's a great form of recycling when one man's junk becomes another's treasure.
Re:Used = good (Score:2)
But it's interesting to think that there isn't room for too many ebays...there may be other auction sites, but it seems that none are going to come close to the 800lb gorilla. I mean, I think a lot of people think ideally, there might be just one auction site for the whole internet. (So maybe there's some room for bargain hunting on the other sites?)
E-Bay as a monopoly (Score:2)
E-Bay has the brand, almost akin to Coke in the net auction sense. What I was wondering is if this is a good thing or a bad thing. Is there room for 2? How can we improve upon the current situation? 2 ideas I had...although they may not be the most popular, were to either have the site run for charitable purposes by an organisation such as the Salvation Army. People could donate products for auction to benefit the organization and get the tax bennies, or just pay the fee to the organisation for running the site and have the profits doing good work in the community. The other idea I had was to have the site run by the government. It would bring up the possibility of sales tax, for good or for bad, and potentially regulate international sales, again for good or for bad. The money could be used for just about any government program and could be a good step towards lower taxes in other areas. Then again it could become a useless government run agency...helping the IRS put the S in service...that kind of thing.
Yes...yes... (Score:2)
Anyways...like I said, it is just an illustrative example. No need to get all technical. What do you think this is...Slashdot? Oh...
Re:Used = good (Score:2)
I think you missed a wobble in the first part of your sig. "Weeble Wobbles wobble, but they don't fall down."
Stealing (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Stealing (Score:2)
Re:Stealing (Score:3, Informative)
Kintanon
Re:Stealing (Score:3, Funny)
WOW...now this is a big story
(too many times the $60 is bought back for $5 and resold for $40 storyies.)
Re:Stealing (Score:2)
I used to work for a (barely) off-campus college-textbook store. We had fairly decent security (mainly from being a smaller store that was easier to monitor), but the university bookstore wasn't as careful. There was pretty much always a stream of obviously stolen books coming in...it'd pick up at the beginning and end of each semester, but it was always there to a degree. Spotting them was fairly easy...the people trying to fence books didn't look like students, and the types of damage they'd inflict to a new book to make it look "used" (run dirty fingers along the edge of the pages, scratch the cover with something rough, etc.) didn't look at all like normal wear-and-tear. You really had no proof that the books were stolen, though, so we'd offer $2-$5 for a book that would sell for $50 or more. We'd more than get our money back, as we'd sell it used and get 80% of the new-book price for it. Since the perps were only interested in getting enough money to fund their crack habits (or whatever), they always took whatever pittance we offered (further evidence that they're not for real, as your average student would've bitched about getting taken like that, just like they do when a book is bought back at wholesale price).
Embracing the net (Score:4, Interesting)
On the other hand the music and movie industries seem to be doing the exact opposite. Example - Stephen King's + Scott Adams E-Books. Publishers embrace the technology and don't try to make money with lawyers. I doubt the RIAA will learn a lesson however.
i hate things that say.. (Score:5, Insightful)
There are many used book stores that don't report to anybody.
Re:i hate things that say.. (Score:2)
Is the IRS aware of this?
I am surprised! (Score:2, Troll)
When I want a book, I buy it new and treat it carefully and store it in well protected conditions such that in 20 years, I can pull out the same book and it will still be in perfect condition just as the day I bought it. I have read my set of Lord of the Rings more than 3 times now and still they are immaculate. The damage and wear that multiple reads, shipping, selling, etc puts on books in my opinion ruins them. Sure, the words are still on the page and still readable. But the damage to the book undermines and disrespects both the work of the author to put together a thoughtful work of writing, the work the artists to create the cover artwork, and the whole 'book feeling' that cannot be reproduced by PDF, e-book or newspaper. And thus, when it comes to my personal reading, I only buy new books and keep them in perefect condition.
Re:I am surprised! (Score:3, Interesting)
I found 25 books for less than $7 and they were in good enough condition to read them.
There is no disrespect to the author's time/effort when you are buying a book that is old and tattered. In fact, I believe if the author cared that much about the condition of the book itself and not the contents of that book then he was writing for the COMPLETE wrong reason.
My favorite part of "Pauper's" is the fact that they have a Commodore64 (brown, non-C) in a box in the middle of the store stacked on top of a bunch of other shit.
Ahhh, musty smells, Commodores, and Piers Anthony, takes me back, way back.
Give me a break (Score:2, Interesting)
It's not about the physical mainfestation of the book, it's about the words and thoughts and ideas the author is communicating. I'd be willing to bet most authors would rather have people share their books and re-read them and really love them than pamper them and be afraid to read it one more time for fear of hurting it.
When I read a book, I'm brutal to it, that's just my way. I fold pages and highlight things that really move me, and I really don't think the authors would think that I'm being disrespectful.
Like I said, I wouldn't ever be critical of some one like you taking great care of the book, but you really have no right to be critical of the way others treat their books.
Re:I am surprised! (Score:2, Insightful)
But new books have no soul, there is a unique feeling when you have an old book that you know have been in the hands of someone else. The smell, the look of old paper... Sometimes there are notes in the margin, names under the cover, etc.
I have such a book, "Towers, Turrets and Temples". Under the cover there is a mention that it was given as a christmas gift in December 1900...
Re:I am surprised! (Score:2)
Books are to be read, not preserved. The authors words live in the reading - not in the uncreased, unmarked cover, or in the pristine white pages.
I just can't understand you, I tried as I was composing this. It seems to me you don't want the writing - you just want the physical object... a literary trophy hunter, if you will.
I'll continue reading, wearing out, and replacing my favorite works, and by doing so, supporting my favored authors. Lois McMaster Bujold already has my payment twice over for Memory, and thrice over for the Vor Game, and she deserves every damn penny. (Yes, I know Baen gets most of it)
Re:I am surprised! (Score:5, Insightful)
And that's why you find it amazing. You don't understand the love of secondhand books.
Good secondhand bookstores are their own microcosm of wonder - especially the ones with creaky wooden floors, three cramped stories packed with floor to ceiling shelves, and overstuffed leather armchairs in odd places. There's a magic about prowling through the slightly yellowed rows of golden age SciFi looking for that one special novel that will complete your obscure author collection (Lloyd Biggle jr, anyone?), and if you don't understand that magic, well, I'm sorry for you. Used/old books have a certain smell and feel that is unique, and I'll guarantee that the great majority of good authors frequent second-hand bookstores.
Keeping books in "perfect condition" is a nice ideal - you should take care of books. My personal peeve is people who mark their place by leaving the book open, face down (Fire and Hemlock's fault). But keeping them in mint condition is unecessarily picky. Books are made to be read, and signs of wear are the marks of a good book. My (third) copy of LOTR is battered, creased, dogeared, and still perfectly readable. I can throw it in my backpack or overcoat pocket for reading on long bus trips, or up on a hill at Uni. Maybe, if it survives further multiple readings, I'll be able to lend it to someone else to love.
And by lend, I usually mean give - I don't try particularly hard to get back really good books that I can easily get another copy of secondhand, which is the whole point of second-hand books. Good books are to be read and shared. Not kept in vacuum storage for their preservation.
Re:I am surprised! (Score:2)
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. If someone wants to read a book, but not keep the book, then there's a wonderful place called a LIBRARY that has been around for a long long time. I can only think of 2 possible reasons why someone would buy a used book:
Almost all used books out there are available in your local library. And it's free there.
Personally, I buy books that I want to keep and go to the library for books I only want to read (once). Why would I pay for a book I don't want to keep when I can get it for free?
Re:I am surprised! (Score:2)
Who said this?
A. A troll
B. Someone who doesn't read very much
C. Has never been in their local library
I'm guessing B & C
Re:I am surprised! (Score:2)
I was just yanking your chain a little, but the fact remains that the number of titles available online *hugely* exceeds the number of titles in even a "decently-sized"(sic) city library or university. I've been to literally dozens of libraries throughout the U.S. and worked for several years at a public library. I know what is available at local libraries. The internet has more. Much more.
My pet peeve over used books... (Score:3, Interesting)
I really hate getting a used book that someone has taken a highlighter to. The light yellow/green/pink really distracts my eye when trying to concentrate. Even worse when the previous owner has a really bad highlighting technique. Far less annoying are the standard food stains/coffee cup marks, even when half the book in stained.
Anyone know of any online bookstores that at least check a few pages of used books for highlighter marks and the like, and mention if they found any in the book description?
:^)
Ryan Fenton
Re:My pet peeve over used books... (Score:5, Funny)
Unfortunately, they really catch your eye. I was half way through the book, when I came across an underlined sentence with a note reading, "This is why he dies at the end."
Arrrghh!
Re:My pet peeve over used books... (Score:2)
Did that happen to be The Great Gatsby? Almost every copy of that book I've seen is filled with notes (unless it's brand new) and invariably every damn one of them has something to that effect right in the middle of the book.
Kintanon
Re:My pet peeve over used books... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:My pet peeve over used books... (Score:2)
Re:My pet peeve over used books... (Score:2)
I pity the poor IU student who purchased HER used books. They were completely unreadable when she was done with them.
Auto register on NYTimes (Score:2, Informative)
For the impatient here's an automatic registration link to the article [majcher.com].
My dad's book (Score:2, Interesting)
Can't browse (Score:5, Insightful)
it's a funny commentary on media (Score:3, Insightful)
i think it is kind of funny then that the internet, this colossal, immediate, hyperlinked textual monstrosity, should greatly increase the market for... used books!!??
so i am hereby predicting the next big media revolution will have everyone reading the saturday evening post... or life magazine... don't ask me how or why, but the precedent is clear. LOL
Good example of capitalism (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sure it pisses off the book publishers, but they can join the ranks of the candle makers and buggy whip producers.
Re:Good example of capitalism (Score:4, Interesting)
I wouldn't be celebrating. Capitalism may be working, but book fans are getting ripped off.
This is my experience: I have been adding to my Robert Anton Wilson [rawilson.com] collection lately. In case you aren't familiar with him, he has written a large number of important and controversial books [fiction,non-fiction,fantasy]. He was also the senior editor at Playboy [playboy.com] during the late 70's. Most of his books have been through multiple printings by various publishers. Two or three years ago I could have purchased any of his books in paperback for under $10. Now price-gouging season has begun. Some of my recent quotes: $25, $60, etc... These are prices for used paperbacks less than twenty years old. I lent and lost a copy of The Earth Will Shake a few years ago, but now I can buy a used copy for $65--I spent $10 for a new copy about five years ago.
I lamented this just the other day while in the local bookstore. Then the owner gave me some inside information: the book seller has been hoarding Robert Anton Wilson books with the help of the web. He has nearly monopolized this particular market; now he sells a small number each week for his cash flow.
That's my beef with capitalism. The "market" (really: anticipation of future sales) has caused a product to become scarce. Hence the outrageous prices. In the meantime it is impossible--without enough disposable income--to find most books written by this contemporary author. I don't doubt that the internet has opened up a lot of readers to a lot of authors, but the speculators are creating a scenario not unlike the end result of censorship.
So yes, it does piss off the book publishers. It also pisses off people who would like to buy books for a fair price to read them [newsflash: original purpose of books is for reading!].
Re:Good example of capitalism (Score:2)
If the author is not involved then it is more of a level playing field for the used book market, and the price would not be artifcialy(?) inflated.
Re:Good example of capitalism (Score:2)
Re:Good example of capitalism (Score:2)
If I'm an advid reader with limited funds to spend on books, I might spend some of the money on the latest and greatest, but it only makes sense for me to get more bang for my buck by purchasing used books at discounted prices. I would do so anyway at conventional used book stores, but the online bookstores only increase the selection. The money spent there will likely be spent elsewhere in ways that the original publisher will not benefit. They have nothing to get pissed about.
In fact, there's the potential fact that someone will buy up large quantities of a current author's older works and therefore be a prime candidate for purchasing new copies of the author's new books as they're released. This is a GOOD thing for the publishers.
-Restil
Generally agree, but.. (Score:2)
When that happens, the publisher gets a distorted view of how popular the author's work is, which can lead to new authors simply not getting a second book contract. This is a BAD thing for the publishers, the authors, AND the fans.
And this is also why selling review copies is just plain short-sighted.
Used book, read, then resell? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Used book, read, then resell? (Score:2)
Re:Used book, read, then resell? (Score:2)
Re:Used book, read, then resell? (Score:2)
Okay. This one is a decent reason, though most libraries will allow you to re-sign out a book. Enlightened ones let you do it over the net or phone even.
Potential for keeping the book?
You can always purchase it later, and then you're not paying the original out of pocket expense if you decide you didn't want it.
Able to loan it out to others?
Direct them to the library.
The more people who use the library, the more people who will support the libraries.
The more people who support the libraries, the better their collections get.
Re:Used book, read, then resell? (Score:2)
I wonder about this. It seems true on the surface, but...
Libraries use these too man! (Score:2, Informative)
finally - ecommerce as a net benefit to society... (Score:2)
Ok, so here I am, doing my PhD in Australia. It is exceedingly difficult to find *good* books in my area of study at reasonable prices. Buying a $70 book to read it in a day and find half of it useless garbage, as I did yesterday, is *very* frustrating, and rough on a student's budget. It's also frustrating to spend a month harassing the interlibrary loan clerk at the Uni library to try to track down a book that ONLY the University of Waggawaggabernong has only to hear "oh sorry, they won't loan that one out!".
I've got more than a few books - books I'll be using to draft my "original contribution to knowledge" - that, were it not for centralized used-book databases like amazon.com, I would never have found.
Amazon can make their little profit on used books and referrals - that's honest money to me. They (and others that do the same thing) provide a mechanism to share information (real, print information - there's very few good books on the net) that provides a signficant net benefit, and one that will only grow more beneficial as more academic/intellectual/literate types take advantage of it.
Nice to see ecommerce used for something other than consume-consume-consume. Even e-bay doesn't seem like recycling - well ok, not to me at least, I only seem to be able to buy stuff from it! (/me looks guiltily around at numerous silly ebay purchases)
Re:finally - ecommerce as a net benefit to society (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not quite as optimistic as you. While there are areas where this is a win (such as books that were previously unavailable because the only copies were buried in an unknown used bookstore), it is also cutting into the revenue for the book publishers. That's the same money that is used to encourage authors to spend their time writing books instead of writing advertising copy, flipping burgers, or working in a factory.
There are a number of ways the book industry can try and adapt. They can adjust the initial purchase price to reflect the larger average number of people reading each copy. They can cut costs through cheaper materials. They can use cheap materials to make the books fall apart sooner, making it harder to resell the books. They can focus only on the mainstream authors who always sell big numbers.
Now I'm not saying that reselling books is evil, immoral, or illegal. But it does have a potentially negative effect on the book industry, and I believe there's a good chance that that negative effect will get transferred back to the consumer.
Who'd have thought it? (Score:2)
TWW
hey! that's not paying copyright! (Score:2, Insightful)
If not, what's the difference between music sharing and used books selling? That I'm giving you a *copy* of a song, and not the original one, right? But who prevents me from deleting the "original" song once you downloaded it from my pc?
...if 'original' and 'copy' has a meaning in a digital world..
ok this was joking. Obviously selling used books isn't a crime.
cheers
Re:hey! that's not paying copyright! (Score:2)
Wouldn't your example be like taking a book, reprinting it with a different cover and selling it? Or maybe scannig it into a document and distributing it as a
Used CDs (was Re:hey!that's not paying copyright!) (Score:3, Interesting)
Record companies would love to stop used CD sales [jaffeassociates.com].
I wouldn't worry about restrictions on the sales of used books until long after CD resale becomes illegal.
There is one fly in the ointment- I have seen stories regarding restrictions on the resale of books that include CD-ROMs, related to the licensing of the software on the included CD.
The US Post Office helps... (Score:2, Interesting)
Do other nations do this?
How long before the USPS, in an effort to gain more revinue, rids itself of the discount to mailing books?
On a side note, I get free Amazon [amazon.com] gift certificates because of the credit card [nextcard.com] I use. I can't apply it toward used anything, but I rack up enough points to get new stuff as fast as I can read it. (I don't think this offer exists for new customers anymore... but it couldn't hurt to try/ask)
The decline of Bookfinder (Score:2, Interesting)
So now you need to search all those sites manually to be sure to find a particular book.
I start with Amazon to find the book and get the ISBN, and make note of Amazon's used price.
Then I look at Half (because it's so damn easy! and I trust the eBay ratings system). Usually the best place for recent books.
Then the dreaded ABEbooks where it's a zillion little dealers, each with their own shipping rates, and method of payment. ABE is what used book buying via email and BBS used to be like (except now we have PayPal).
I was amazed to find the best price via Bibliofind even though it's a branch of Amazon. Seems Bibliofind searches ZSHOPS, while the normal page in Amazon didn't list the ZSHOP copy. The best price I found anywhere else was over $40 (for a less than 10 year old Del Rey paperback!). The ZSHOP price? $2.50! Yes! The joy of buying used.
Of course the shipping kind of kills those wonderful deals. Nothing could beat walking out of a used bookstore with huge stack of paperbacks for $20 ($1 to $2 a book). Thats how you really discover authors (and accumulate shelf after shelf of stuff you will never get around to reading).
Yet Another Success Story (Score:2, Informative)
ABEBooks - The Web's Killer App (Score:2, Interesting)
It's called a library folks (Score:2)
I can usually walk down to the one down the street from me, borrow the one I want and return it, having spent, in effect, nothing.
Yes, not all books are available at the local library but I'll wager the vast majority of the ones being traded are. And if it isn't available at the local one, they are usually willing to get it for you within a few days.
Sadly, though, with the economy the way it is, the library system is one of the areas that my city is considering cutting back on.
not just books, lots of things (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, this is true, and not only books, but other things as well.
I don't know about the rest of you who sell on eBay but I've noticed something over the past year or so .. everytime I buy something, I immediately think of the inevitable eBay resale.
Electronics: I will buy a more expensive digital camera because I know I can resell it later to buy the next model. Instead of collecting junk in my closet I can "upgrade" it by selling it and buying something else. I'm already anal about keeping things nice and clean and like-new, so it's no problem keeping stuff in ready to sell condition.
CDs: I used to buy lots of obscure indie/electronic CDs, but I had to pick and choose. Now, I basically buy everything on the new release lists because I know I can unload the ones I don't like on eBay (sometimes for more than I paid for those limited releases).
Books: I don't hesitate to buy the "intro" computer books (e.g., O'Reilly's Learning XML) because once I outgrow them, I can get $10-$15 back on eBay. And I might be helping some programmer who couldn't afford the full price of the new book.
It's not "the internet", it's eBay! eBay is the only Internet company that has really changed things, if you ask me. With eBay, everything can be "try before you buy".
Does anyone worry (Score:5, Interesting)
That we've reached the situation where there is a sufficient concentration of idiocy, arrogance and financial interest to push for the removal or truncation of first sale rights on items that contain content, including books?
I know it sounds insane, but bear with me. I'm thinking about the Elcomsoft judge, and his assertion that because you can transcribe an eBook by hand, that satisfies the right to copy it in part for fair use rights of quotation, and in whole for eventually putting it into the public domain. So a court has said that it's both possible and practical to copy an eBook, and so by a close extrapolation, that applies (even more so because of OCR) to a text book.
So... (thinks an unscrupulous IP lawyer concerned that kiddies are actually sharing copies of Harry Potter and the Amazonian Gift Certificate or another lucrative movie tie in) if it's even easier to copy a paper book than a highly protected eBook, then why shouldn't some of those juicy DMCA criminal penalties apply to paper books?
Bear in mind that some eBooks are already tied to individual devices (my colleage has just bought a new PDA, but simply can't transfer his Microsoft licensed eBooks from his old one to the new one). They are treated as information licensed to you; you have no rights of first sale. Now, transferral of an eBook is copying of information, not a physical transfer, but look also at how hard it is to sell software on eBay. Publisher can and do have you shut down in an instant, even if you explicitely state that you are selling a boxed non-OEM copy that you have removed from your hardware. The very idea that you can own an object that contains copyrighted content is being challenged by habit and usage, and that's often a precursor to a change in the law.
I'm not saying that this will happen this year or the next. I'm thinking five or ten years, but I'm thinking that it can and will happen, after all digital content is locked down tight with mandatory DRM. I'm not proposing that it's Constitutional, or even that it's in any way workable, but that's not necessarily a bar to having a law passed that will take years of fighting up to the Supremes to have struck or modified.
I'm also thinking that it might be the issue that finally wakes up Joe Consumer regarding fair use and the balance of power in copyright, but that by then it might be too late to recover any of the rights that we've already lost to the publishers and distributors.
What do you think? Am I delusional, or am I just following the money?
Used computer books (Score:2)
Books are here to stay. (Score:3, Interesting)
- I get a lot out of the reviews posted by other buyers. But this requires to be vigilant about the posts (the wolfram book is one example where people posted negative reviews one day after the publication, even if the book is 1000 pages.)
- Some people will just lie about the quality of the books they sell just to make more profit. Shop to places with good credibility and don't be surprised to pay a little bit more to get a nicer copy.
- Some sellers are charging up to the nose for books that are out of print. Use google extensively to find your copy for cheaper (half is not always the best place, amazon zshop is also very good.)
- Shipping cost is not negligible. Even using media mail, it will be higher than to pay for sales tax. And media mail is slow and doesn't let you insure your packages.
- Shipping delays are sometimes what makes me go to Borders or BN (the latter which I try to avoid) and get my copy there. Then I order online for cheaper, then I have one month to return my copy to the bricks+cement merchant. You've got to do what you have to do. Not my fault if the "real" stores don't compete aggressively with online prices.
- I still like to go to some dusty used bookstores and browse thru the huge selection, because I support moms&pops businesses and it's really enjoyable to find that rare copy of something I would never have thought buying online (e.g. D&D first ed. monster manual that I bought last weekend.)
PPA, the girl next door.
Books- here to stay! (Score:3, Insightful)
With books however we still haven't got to the stage where the electronic "rip" is as good as owning the original. I think it will take years before portable readers are as good as real books (in terms of ease of reading, battery life, portability etc).
The other thing that may happen is that it becomes feasible to print a book to read it then recycling the paper. I think the price of ink in a format to suit a printer will always make this uneconomical though.
Just my thoughts
graspee
It's not today that is the problem; it's tomorrow (Score:3, Interesting)
Today is not the problem; tomorrow is. Today e-books and e-distribution, and e-paper, and all that is not much of an issue. After some initial excitement the concept is in the trough of disillusionment at the moment once publishers figured out people didn't want to lug around a Rocketbook.
In about then yeras or so we are likely to see the first signs of a peak in the "book" industry and the first statistically significant moves to digital in the industry. As that happens you will be buying a license to read the material. Time and technology will gradually decide this issue as more and more material is produced in the new formats.
It does not bode well for libraries or the used book trade. I am a librarian of 30 years in charge of our IT department. There is a sentiment in our profession that we may not be around as an institution very much longer.
Re:Cut it off (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, that does not give them the right to use the product to break other laws (xeroxing the book, scanning it in & posting the results to the net, etc), but if they want to use the book to wallpaper their house, there's nothing the seller can do to stop it.
This gets more complicated when you have to have a license to use what's on the physical thing (like software on a CD), but the First Sale principle is pretty well established in the US.
Why should you care? Because it means that there's no way in hell that used book sales are ever going to be shut down...they're protected by the Right of First Sale. The trading of MP3s is not protected by this, so you can expect a legal fight there.
Re:not so bad? (Score:2, Informative)
But once books are not in print they vanish -- the publishers used to keep warehouses full of books that were 20-30 years old. But tax laws and courts changed the rules, so they could no longer could use their old inventory to reduce their taxes. Now publishers get rid of books in a short time.
Re:Who sells their good books? (Score:2)
Not that I've resold much of anything for a while -- I'm really a packrat in human guise -- but there are quite valid reasons that one might do so.
Re:BPAA?? (Score:2, Informative)
NO. They wouldn't be. Such things exist [half.com] without harassment from the **AAs. And we aren't talking about new media anyway; we're talking about used books.
Although your post is clearly a troll, you're a little bit right. No one is contesting the sale of used stuff right now, not even the **AA...just give 'em some time. However, book publishers have attacked libraries as piracy facilitators in the past, without much luck. One thing they've found: It's a hell of a lot harder to demonize a library, paid for by the public and heralded as an educational treasure, than it is to demonize college students and the Internet.
Which makes me wonder: What if a library put together something to "check out" books, music, and videos on the Internet? Yeah, we've got a few things like it, but they're in their infancy and, to my knowledge, not a public project; they're done by one company or another. With a public library behind sharing of books/music/videos, doing what they're already doing in real life, the **AAs might have little choice but to back down.
My library (Multnomah County Library, in Portland, OR) already loans music and videos along with books. It has hookups to the Internet for anyone coming in, and people volunteer for work at the library. It's just a matter of adding these ingredients together, and we could have public filesharing...how sweet is that? I'm getting carried away...but it's nice to think about.
Re:NY Times registration needed (Score:2, Funny)