Community Sets Up Their Own DSL 261
Thrazzle Throne writes "The folks in rural Ruby Ranch got tired of lame dial-up server. They fought the phone company for use of their un-used lines and installed
their own Dsl service. Very cool read."
Old news (Score:2, Informative)
Reminds me of (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Reminds me of (Score:2)
No good internet.
Now I know the reason young'uns have been leaving home since the dawn of time.
Re:Reminds me of (Score:3, Funny)
And they're down for the count (Score:5, Informative)
Here's the google cache: linky linky [google.com]
Re:And they're down for the count (Score:5, Insightful)
Slashdot comes along, posts the story, and within seconds they're /.ed into oblivion.
Now isn't that just the nicest way to start off your small CO-OP ISP--a deluge of traffic from marginally interested geeks who'll forget all about you in 48 hours.
Editors et al, are you even considering the impact you have on these sites? You'll forgive me for being cynical, but the reasons [slashdot.org] you give for not caching smacks of "don't want to deal with it" rather than "genuinely concerned about the effect we have". (Wait six hours for breaking news [slashdot.org]? Heaven forfend...)
Slashdot, you're like a bad concert. You come into town unannounced, make downtown completely inaccessible for a day, and leave the next morning without so much as packing out your mess. Take some responsability for the social impact of the Slashdot Effect. Pursue a solution. It is important.
Re:And they're down for the count (Score:2)
Re:And they're down for the count (Score:2)
no one is safe, attempts to resist are futile!
Re:And they're down for the count (Score:5, Insightful)
I could try asking permission, but do you want to wait 6 hours for a cool breaking story while we wait for permission to link someone?
Let me see...wait 6 hours for a "breaking" story, or wait 6 hours (or more) while the server in question gets back on its feet, having to rely on nothing but the article summary on
Hear that 486 webserver scream! (Score:2)
A barn, somewhere in Colorado... (Score:5, Funny)
Ezekiel: Hmmm, my 28.8 connection seems to be connecting fine... let's just surf on over to Slashdot... OH MY DEAR GOD
Why this is cool ... (Score:5, Interesting)
In their working against Qwest they had to settle a couple of issues. The include the forms and paperwork they used to make it happen and these can be used as a template.
What pushes this over the cool mode into the must read are the accompanying technical documents. They have network diagrams, monitoring statuses and more. It's amazing.
The best part of their site is a list of other communities have done the same thing.
The site is dynamite and is full of information! One of the best articles I have seen on Slashdot in a long time.
Any group... (Score:1)
Re:Any group... (Score:1)
Re:Any group... (Score:1)
That doesn't mean everything.
BAPA circuits (Score:2)
Re:BAPA circuits (Score:2)
Re:BAPA circuits (Score:2)
IIRC the original slashdot story about this was some guy in some small town using DSL as a transport mode between sites; since the whole town was on one CO this wasn't a problem.
Re:BAPA circuits (Score:2, Informative)
They would rather sell you value added ($$$) digital data services (56K, ISDN, T-1) and DSL (in high population density areas close to a central office) which are much more profitable for them.
So if you try to buy such a circuit from your phone company, don't be suprised if they won't sell it to you. I know Qwest won't.
On another note (Score:4, Funny)
Re:On another note (Score:3, Funny)
Re:On another note (Score:2)
At least it's not the FBI this time.
Slashdot on the horizon (Score:5, Funny)
I suddenly find myself wondering if this is the first barn slashdot has ever taken down...
Coloradoans, unite! (Score:5, Funny)
And for one last dig on Qwest, here's an often-heard Coloradoan joke: What's the difference between Qwest and Enron? About six more months.
Re:Coloradoans, unite! (Score:5, Interesting)
The moral is that even if YOU can't get DSL, but if someone CLOSE to you can, that's good enough and with a little talking to your neighbors you can be online at high speeds too.
Re:Coloradoans, unite! (Score:2)
So, getting nowhere with the morons at Qwest, my neighbors and I filed more complaints. Lo and behold, a week later, a Qwest employee shows up and hooks up my phone service. Funny how that works.
Re:Coloradoans, unite! (Score:2)
Link to another Ruby Ranch article (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.nwfusion.com/columnists/2002/0408net
So there was no satellite service in their area? (Score:2)
Re:So there was no satellite service in their area (Score:2, Informative)
Re:So there was no satellite service in their area (Score:2)
In most discussions of this sort the term "cost effective" or "acceptable" is implied, i.e. "they had no other cost effective (or acceptable) choice other than 28.8" is probably not hyperbole. Remember, satelites work for download, upload is still limited to what the phone line can carry, ie. 28.8kb, so satelite wasn't really a choice that would have addressed the problem of speed to their satisfaction (read their website for specifics of why when they systematically investigated the satelite option they rejected it).
Re:So there was no satellite service in their area (Score:2)
I very much doubt that. I've lived in a rural area most of my life. Even though I was only about 8 miles from the CO, and on a fairly new all copper loop(1), with 56k capabilities on both ends of my connection, I was lucky to get more than 19.6k and never got more than 28.8k. PacBell is the high end for line quality around here, too, being the major carrier. There are a few parts of the county that are served by GTE, and they are much worse.
I'm guessing that you have never lived in a rural area. You wouldn't believe how bad phone service can be in areas where you can't open your window and spit on your neighbor. Universal Access is satisfied by only the most basic telephone capability on nasty, noisy lines, and the phone company only guarantees 4800 baud. My complaints about line quality were met with "you can get ISDN". I've since moved somewhere I can get DSL, but my mom still lives in the house I grew up in, and the situation hasn't changed a bit.
No, saying that they were limited to 28.8k is probably not an exageration, and is in fact probably a quite generous depiction of the service they were actually getting. It's quite possible ISDN isn't available to them, or if it is it's unreasonably expensive for the bandwidth it provides. If they're in a mountainous area there could easily be line-of-site issues that would prevent them from using one of the satalite based services. Line-of-site is also a problem for radio and microwave (despite what folks would like you to believe about cell phones, they do have LoS issues).
The MSNBC article says these questions are answered on the rric web site, but it seems to be barely limping along at this point.
(1) The new copper loop was paid for by 5 families (including mine) when our self-installed farm lines started getting sketchy about 7 or 8 years ago. It cost us $10k per family for 2 miles of line extension, plus a 3 year service contract with PacBell. PacBell made it a loop a few years later of their own volition.
Re:So there was no satellite service in their area (Score:2)
Re:So there was no satellite service in their area (Score:2)
Satellite mixed with a few good lines would work nicely.
Home Built Fiber Network (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Home Built Fiber Network (Score:1)
I really hope those guys are gamers, otherwise that network is just massive overkill.
Re:Home Built Fiber Network (Score:2)
Seriously, even for DSL the phone company owns the copper here (often over 30 years old), and takes about the same fee for just keeping them connected as the network above. I guess they will still be satisfied in 30 years.
Hrm... (Score:2, Funny)
Draw and Quarter Qwest, I say (Score:1)
yikes (Score:1)
Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:5, Interesting)
I've said this many times before, why are people in this kind of situation rolling out DSL? Why not just lay down new copper in the form of CAT5?
It's dirt cheap. I've done it. Just look at these pics [he.net] of my neighborhood area network. Currently 10 neighbors share the cost of an internet connection. We also share stuff we've grabbed from kazza, we have a intranet that announces the happenings and events on our street. Very cool stuff. Basically each house has a switch, and we daisy chain houses so we don't run into the 600' Ethernet limit.
I can give a rat's ass about the AUP of my ISP because the question of packet ownership has to be asked. At what point do I own that packet? When I request a document from the web? When it hits my router? When it is on my copper?
People can do this themselves, it's not hard. In a rural area you just replace the AC transformer brick on the switch with a battery/solar panel combo every 600', or you could something that has a bit more distance to it like token ring. Yeah maybe this all sounds silly, but we're doing it out here in silicon valley and it's been working for the last year.
--toq
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:1)
Yes, I agree. However, they do not live in an suburban area. The community is quite spread out and would make regular old CAT5 pointless because of the distance limitations. In rural areas other houses are most likely beyond 600' so even if daisy chained it would not work.
r00tdeniedRe:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:2)
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:2)
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:5, Informative)
Why not simply bury your own cable? In our neighborhood, the ground is full of rocks. This means that many ways of burying cable, such as a vibrating plow blade or a Ditch Witch, are unworkable. Pretty much the only way to bury things is with a backhoe. Backhoe work is expensive. Our neighborhood has many miles of roads, and we would likely have to spend well over a hundred thousand dollars if we were to try to bury new cable in the neighborhood.
Burying new copper under our roads is particularly frustrating to think about, given that the existing phone cables buried by Qwest were overbuilt by a factor of three or more. In other words, some two-thirds of the pairs in the cables are spares right now, spares that would never get used by Qwest for revenue service. Qwest ought to be delighted at the chance of collecting monthly revenue from us for some of these pairs.
Two words: Lightning Protection (Score:2)
sPh
Re:Two words: Lightning Protection (Score:2)
Maybe someone with some real education in this area can explain it better. Still, point is, you're probably best off running fiber between buildings to be safe.
Re:Two words: Lightning Protection (Score:2)
Its best to use fiber optic cable over large distances, unless you like to isolate the circuits and treat the chassis as possible live conductors. The voltage differences across one building can reach several volts. Over different buildings, I'd hate to touch the wires if the worst happened. I have seen 277 volts (one phase of the 480) make it through the ground reference before. If its copper from another building, beware! Don't touch!
Re:Two words: Lightning Protection (Score:2)
The other day I saw something on The Discovery Channel or something similar. After they went back through the tapes of the regional weather radar and the satellite pictures and all that, they discovered that the lightning that hit a guy on a bicycle in Vail, CO, out of a bright, clear sky came from 10 miles away, traveling sideways over a mountain before it got to him.
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:4, Informative)
One word: right of way.
Oh, that's three words.
But the simple reason you don't just run CAT5 all over town is that the state won't allow it. You could theoretically get permission from the owner of every property the wire crosses, but even then you'd need an easement from the city or township for every crossing of a public street.
This is one of the more important reasons why one has some recourse when the ILEC won't provide a needed service. They've been given unique privileges by the state, and in return have a well-recognized legal obligation to act in the public interest.
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:4, Informative)
Yup, that's what we did...
Sorta funny how it started out. I originally just shared with 1 neighbor, but then a guy on our street (who's also a pushy saleman) wanted to get on our network. Problem was he was 10 doors down from us. So he went door to door and asked all the neighbors in between if they wanted to participate.
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:2)
There are those who wish to do it right (and yes, pay the price) and those who just want it to work, regardless of legality or asthetics.
P.S. If you had read the article you'd understand why they didn't go this route.
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:2)
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:2)
And you are wrong about plenum CAT5. Plenum CAT5 isn't designed to be flame retardant, it's designed to not give off as many noxious chemicals when it's burned.
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:2)
From the Technical Information Notice from the Telecommunications Industry Assocation site:
Plenum cables have a significantly lower propensity for ignition, flame spread, heat release and smoke opacity than for LSZH cables. The fire performance of plenum cables was comparable to standard PVC cables in metallic trunking.
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:2)
The dust and the sawdust perhaps, and maybe the insulation, depending on what it's made of (the kraft paper facing on fiberglass might burn, but I doubt the glass will, although some insulating sheathing--used as much for wall rigidity as insulation--is burnable), but drywall/sheetrock is heavy in part because there's so much water tied up in it. It's used (in double thicknesses)between attached units as a firestop.
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:2)
Will your method work? Yes, sort-of, for a while. I have done it "properly" and all those little costs really add up.
You have a limit of four repeaters (hubs, switches) TOTAL on a point-to-point ethernet connection, so you would need routers or bridges every 184m. I assume you are breaking that rule which, again, will work for a while.
DSL is a very good solution for their community. Another would have been to run two pairs to each home and run a T1 connection. That's what I would have wanted. And I already have two spare CSU/DSUs....
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:2)
Actually, the electrical tape is where my dog chewed the wire in half. I was too cheap to run a new wire
Point of this exercise is that it CAN BE DONE. So what if it looks like shit? You should go outside right now, talk to your neighbor, and do it better if you can. Then take plenty of pics so I can see how to "Do it right"
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:2)
Lighting usually but doesn't always strike the highest point.
Back in the olden days pre-cordless phones, it was a good idea to get off the phone during a lightning storm because _if_ lighting hit (I should make that _IF_ cause it's admittedly a huge if), the same wires that bring in Aunt May's voice cross-country can also reunite you with your dead uncle.
Also, what if the shitton spike goes past your netgear and into your neighbors unbacked up computer - frying the sucker - while he was in the middle of _important_ (neighbors are rarely important) work. What you've got there is a little liability issue.
Finally, and don't be surprised cause you heard it here first: Sharing of your Internet connection is likely prosecutable in your jurisdiction in the same spirit that theft of cable is, regardless of who you get your upstream from. And no, it wont be a question of packet ownership. It'll be a simple signed contract that spells out what you can't but did do.
Good luck.
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:2)
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:2)
Listen, I'm not saying it is right or wrong. I'm saying that you can't necessarily dismiss your ISP contract because you believe you own the packets. You sign the contract and you abide by the terms of use.
Again, this is not about what the article above refers to. This is about the growing "problem" of Internet connection sharing. If your ISP says they won't allow it, and you do so anyway, you will tend to be in breach of contract.
No matter what some on Slashdot think, I shouldn't make copies of DVDs to give to my friends. If I decide to digitize my DVDs for viewing from my office, I should take reasonable precautions that my streams not be publicly accessible. I didn't spend the money making, say, Harry Potter. If I did spend the money to make it, and I decided to give it away, that would be my right.
If I spend time and money to create something, and you want it, I can choose to ask for you to pay for it.
Re:Why didn't they just roll out CAT5? (Score:2)
Having it stapled to the backyard fence isn't really that bad. It's small enough and high enough where it isn't really noticable. Heck I spend most of my time indoors anyways. Like I said, I am a geek.
And finally, to address your third point of property values and such. I own this house, as do most of my neighbors own theirs. Over a 30 year period our property values will go up no matter what due to inflation. Thing is, i'm teaching all the little kids in the hood wassup with computers. They're taking an interest now. It so damn cool to see the light bulb go on in their heads. These kids will probably be better off in the future than their peers because of the exposure they are getting now.
The biggest problem, I have always seen with technology is the luddite. The luddite is in all of us, its a measure of your comfort with technology. I think the more we teach young kids how to be comfortable with technology the more we will advance as a society.
Click my hoempage, it's on my name. One of the last pictures in in my garage. Kids as young as 8 are scavenging my garage and scrapping together pc's. It's amazing. Older brothers are teaching younger brothers.
Anyways dave, I went a bit off there, but it's cool. I'm doin it cause I know it's making a difference. I see kids getting inspired to do shit with it and well, it melts my heart.
--toq
Why not Wireless? (Score:2, Interesting)
--Azaroth
Site contents (Score:5, Informative)
The Coop offers DSL service to all homes in the Ruby Ranch neighborhood in Summit County, Colorado.
The Coop was founded in 2001 because no one offered DSL or cable modem Internet access in our neighborhood, and because the voice telephone service to the neighborhood is of such poor quality that it is not possible to get modem connections faster than about 26K bits per second. The Coop is a Colorado nonprofit corporation and is federally tax-exempt under 501(c)(12).
The Coop's History
The Coop has launched service.
By far the biggest challenge faced by the Coop, a challenge that dwarfed any of the Coop's technical and financial challenges, was gaining access to subloops from Qwest under the Telecommunications Act of 1996. (The subloops are needed to connect the DSLAM to the subscriber homes. The buried telephone cable in our neighborhood has some three times as many subloops as are actually needed for voice service, and the subloops we wish to rent are among the hundreds of spare subloops which otherwise would generate no revenue for Qwest.) The course of negotiations was such that the Coop found it necessary to file an informal complaint with the Federal Communications Commission and subsequently found it necessary to pursue arbitration before the Colorado Public Service Commission ("CoPUC"). In the arbitration, the CoPUC found that "all of [the Coop's] proposed equipment is compatible with the Qwest network," and that "Qwest is technically able to accommodate [the Coop's] proposal." The CoPUC found that the Coop is entitled to pay "wholesale" rates for the subloops rather than much higher retail rates. Finally, the CoPUC found that because the Coop will be providing only data services (not voice services) and because the Coop will be offering its services to everyone in its service area, the Coop does not need to be a CoPUC-licensed telephone company. (This is very good news, since being a licensed telephone company would impose prohibitive accounting and record-keeping burdens.) After the CoPUC's arbitration decision there were further negotiations with Qwest, and a signed Interconnect Agreement between the Coop and Qwest has been approved by the CoPUC.
Colorado has a long history... (Score:4, Informative)
Some of the more prominant Unixers on the co-op board are Trent Hein, and Evi Nemeth (two of the authors of the USAH) was also involved. The CO-OP has played a nice part in keeping colorado up and wired.
The cost of a slashdotting (Score:3, Funny)
Does anyone know whether that "about $450 per month" is the maximum charge? I guess they are about to find out. Sometimes I feel sorry for the slashdotted victims.
Thrazzle Throne?? (Score:2, Funny)
I hope that site isn't hosted on-location... (Score:2)
Re:I hope that site isn't hosted on-location... (Score:2)
A side note... (Score:2)
In many of these places, there is just no way to send a 50MB file once a day in a cost effective manor. We just had Iowa telecom decide not to offer flat rate ISDN to us because it would be to expensive for them. This was when we called them a week after the promised install date to see why it wasn't installed! It took us MONTHS to get to this point. Would have been nice if they had a couple months ago (before quoting us a price and delivery time) told us they wouldn't do it. We have promised our customer a price and delivery date (which is now well passed.) Iowa Telecom (or whatever their name is) has now offered us a price for ISDN which is more than our promised total price to the customer.
It is hard to believe phone companies can get away with this type of service, or lack thereof. We have now starting selling the service with a bring your own internet access spin. We have missed deadline after deadline due to the fact we cannot get tcp/ip access to these offices at reasonable prices, at the delivery time we are told. We are a "full service" provider, but there is no way we can deal with this crap. I'm sure we are not alone.
-Pete
This is wonderful! (Score:4, Interesting)
i guess the server is on DSL as well (Score:2)
-Vic
Bizarre Metaphor (Score:5, Funny)
*nick
Re:Bizarre Metaphor (Score:4, Funny)
I was following the story pretty well up until that point.
If you're going to ask questions like that on Slashdot, until the farmer realized all the cows were already home!
Re:Bizarre Metaphor (Score:2)
Simple, really... cause and effect (Score:5, Funny)
Effect - Much of the nation can't access broadband if they wanted to.
Solution - For the love of God, DON'T THROW THAT DART!
Re:Simple, really... cause and effect (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Simple, really... cause and effect (Score:2)
Re:Simple, really... cause and effect (Score:2)
Here [dslreports.com] is a pretty map of the US. The dots are phone company offices (CO's), green ones with DSL equiment and red ones without DSL equipment.
The dots are 1 pixel, and the map is 1000 pixels wide. The US is about 3000 miles wide; therefore the dots are about 3 miles, which is coincidentally the same as the region of service for DSL around the dot.
Here [dslreports.com] is DSL Reports (scant) commentary on the image.
Re:Bizarre Metaphor (Score:3, Funny)
Help, Yoda can:
If at a map of the United States a dart you throw, access broadband even if they wanted to much of the nation can't.
Better now?
Scooped by... yourself! (Score:2, Informative)
(BTW, check out Carl Oppedahl's comments to that story...)
Zippiness and fun! (Score:2, Funny)
Aha! I've been happy with my cable service. I just didn't know I could be that happy!
Broadband as a town utility! (Score:2, Interesting)
http://web.rochelle.net/~city/
I guess I'm a knucklehead, the html formatting doesn't seem to be working when I preview. Ah well, you get the link anyway.
Bureaucracy (Score:3, Insightful)
The Phone companies forget that they are public utilities. They are given certain privileges, not least of which is monopoly power, not so that they can turn a profit, but so that their service can do good for the community. The profit motive is just an incidental factor to encourage them to invest in providing that service.
Hats off to Ruby Ranch for having the moxie to get the thing done. I wish I could get 1.5Mbit SDSL for $60/month.
Re:Bureaucracy (Score:2)
The great thing about a co-op like the Ruby Ranch ISP, is that it can operate independent of the profit motive. Qwest might be interested in profits, but its customers just want broadband access.
DSL service from a barn? (Score:2)
Something similar, and older (Score:3, Interesting)
Its basically a co-op out in rural wyoming that provides internet access, support, and other stuff to members of the community. Pretty interesting, really. Check out their FAQ [lariat.org], or their Clone Us page [lariat.org] which has information on how to create your own local community network.
M$--ware running the main site! (Score:2, Funny)
check netcraft...
Cost of slashdot effect (Score:2, Funny)
who's gonna pay the bill?
According to http://www.rric.net/faq/speeds.htm, the subscribers pay for usage; slashdot users should be billed to suck up that much bandwidth, eh!
I, Cringely article (Score:2, Informative)
Hey, it's in Colorado (Score:3, Funny)
Stan: Why's this damn thing taking so long?
Kyle: Stupid slashdot crashed our DSL.
Kenny: MFFMFMMMFMFMMMFMM
Stan: Yeah, this movie of Cartman's mom's taking forever to download.
Cartman: That's it! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
Way to go! (Score:4, Funny)
Way to go guys!
Sounds familar (Score:2)
Good Idea. Wrong technology. (Score:2, Informative)
Rolling out a community network is a great idea and probably any network geek's dream. But DSL, oh my! Many [nocat.net] wireless [bawug.org] community [personaltelco.net] networks [nycwireless.net] have proved 802.11b is the perfect technology for this. These guys in Seattle [seattlewireless.net] are trying to cover the whole city and IMHO they're very likely to succeed.
So you want to roll out a network in a small city ? UseNoCat Auth [nocat.net] for authentication, connect everything to the net, and already you'll be able to read slashdot while sitting in the middle of the street.
one T1 and... (Score:2)
On a more serious note, I wonder if mod_gzip and a faster server would help out at least a little bit -- make slightly better use of the limited thrput the T1 provides.
Re:i would never set up my own DSL (Score:2)
I hope more communities start doing this & similar services, that should send a message to the phone monopolies.
Re:This is a repeat story (Score:2)
Also, they have nice graphs that show everytime the servers get slashdotted, which is nice.
Wouldn't it be nice if everyone had graphs like this so we could get an idea of how much bandwith is really needed to avoid a slashdotting? They've got a T-1 for the DSLAM/webserver. Which is obviously not enough.