MS Pressuring NW Schools: Pay Up, Or Face Audit 870
razvedchik writes: "As reported in this article in the Portland, OR newspaper, The Oregonian, Microsoft is pressuring 24 school districts in the northwest to agree to their Microsoft School Agreement licensing scheme or undergo an audit in 60 days. Multnomah ESD, which covers the greater Portland area and has around 25,000 computers, has to either decide to accept the license at about $500,000 or undergo the audit which it does not have time to prepare for. Of significant interest is the fact that a significant majority of these schools are experimenting with using Linux. Multnomah ESD has its own thin-client Linux distro called K12LTSP."
Opportunity (Score:2, Interesting)
linux in school (Score:0, Interesting)
Does anyone see it like I see it? (Score:3, Interesting)
Generic software (Score:5, Interesting)
So it seems that generic software, which does almost everything that name brand software does, should be a natural part of the computing world. Yet, where are those generic word processors and spreadsheets and even operating systems? Why is 95% of the desktop market, including these important applications, controlled by one company with nearly impenetrable barriers to entry?
And does this news article point to an example of that very company moving to stamp out a potential insurgence of that generic software? Would we stand for Del Monte moving to shut off the supply of generic branded vegetables on store shelves, especially when someone pointed out that many families couldn't afford the more expensive brand? Why should we stand for Microsoft bringing in jack-booted thugs against schools that have budget shortages?
Yeah, that's inflammatory language. So what?
Re:This would be an excellent time. (Score:5, Interesting)
Think about it: you're faced with a huge audit, that you know you're going to fail. Do you a) pay the huge license & know you'll have to pay it again next year? or b) call in the Linux-install swat team to put Linux on every machine that you can't *prove* is legally a Windows machine, thus avoiding the whole issue for ever?
If the support & panic install costs are low enough (and the guys who do it leet enough), you may very well be able to get a *lot* of people (like the ones in the article) calling for this kind of short-notice Linux migration.
Re:Volunteer (Score:5, Interesting)
Airfare to and from
Place to sleep
Food
In exchange for this, I will help convert and train users, teachers, and students linux. Send inquiries to toqernospam@pacbellnospam.netnospam (remove nospam)
Re:Capitolism at Work (Score:2, Interesting)
Total horseshit. And it puts schools in a position of refusing donations and ripping out existing boxen to comply with this unreasonable standard.
Plan of Action? (Score:2, Interesting)
Likely the school board probably already has the $500K earmarked to come from somewhere. The education of kids is too important, that's why the convicted monopolist is pulling the shenanigans.
So instead of having bake sales, why not get the communities together to do installfests? If they can get the computers changed over in 60 days, then the schools get to keep the money, albeit in a different PTA account.
Perhaps a template can be designed at Sourceforge that allows for a mass CVS action of doing the installs (keeping track of the installs and the problem computers and etc).
Re:Read the license (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, but does Microsoft have any proof that you've accepted any EULA terms?
If no, then make them get a search warrant to prove the existence of any microsoft products, and then they can enforce the "right to audit" provision of the EULA. And make them list specifically which machines they're going to check. And, once they've finally gotten their filthy little hands inside, refuse access to any machines that you know don't contain MS software.
In short, deny even having any MS software in the first place. If you don't have any software, they've got no right to come in.
Of course, school systems have even less cash than ubergeeks, so there's no chance in the world that any of these systems will force the issue, especially not in court. *sigh*
Maybe they could get Scott McNealy to pay their legal fees, to force the issue in front of a judge....
OK. Now I'm MAD (Score:5, Interesting)
This is going to be a total rant, but here goes.
This time they have gone too far. I live here in Oregon and have three kids in public schools. I work for a state agency which, like many other state agencies in Oregon is undergoing significant budget cuts.
Portland is a bit of a drive for me, but I am seriously thinking about taking some time off and volunteering to go up there and help them audit machines, wipe hard drives, and install Linux clients or whatever they need. In fact, anyone else who wants to do the same could join me in emailing them here [mailto] or maybe the help desk here. [mailto]
Put your money/time where your mouth is.
Schools Should Be Seeded w/ Software (Score:3, Interesting)
My last employer put together a contract for a charter school a few years back for 25 workstations and a server (win95 / winnt), 4 printers and cd-server that never worked (but got hacked a few times). Total bid was about $80K ($55K for machines, $3K for our services and the rest for licensing). I remember thinking what a shame that so much was tied up in licensing (25 workstation licenses; plus Office; plus the 50-user NT license.)
If the licensing had been a little more reasonable, the school would have been able to afford more of our services and we probably would have been able to make their network more useful as a result. I ended up spending a couple hundred hours of my own over a couple years to help nurse things along, but I recall thinking that if the school licensing had been given to the school, they could have gotten a lot more value out of it. Also, since most of the 300, or so students were entering the business world in a few years, having them trained in M$ tools would have been great for the software vendor.
It's too bad M$ doesn't take a different approach to licensing for schools. It would be a great tax write-off and would further proliferation of M$-based skillsets to further promote their software in businesses, where these youths would eventually wind up. Not to mention a much better PR message than this article sends. I hope people consider things like this when the Bill and Melissa Gates foundation offers token contributions for their pet projects. A little perspective....
Re:Generic software (Score:3, Interesting)
Food is controlled by the FDA. Oh yes, sometimes bad food does slip through, but in general, one company's canned food is as healthy as another's, though the flavor, texture, and so on may not be the same.
Software is controlled by... Hmm, software isn't controlled. You stick with a brand name you know will get you software which will let you get the job done.
In addition, even "generic" is sometimes a brand name these days, so "generic" is not the word. Maybe off-brand? Though the assertion that linux was "off-brand" would get you flamed nine ways from sunday around here.
The reason linux hasn't taken the desktop market? It's not ready. Your OS has to be usable by idiots, and supportable by idiots, or it can't be scaled to that much market share without collapsing in on itself. There are too many flavors of linux (competition is good, but all consumers see is a fragmented brand name) out there for prime time. And the apps are simply inferior (in terms of features) to the microsoft, adobe, and so on equivalents.
Linux cannot be taken seriously as a desktop market contender at the moment. It's getting better! But it's just not there.
Also, people don't go to websites to compare two cans of string beans, but they do go to check out the features of different operating systems, TCO, and so on. Computers are just too different from food, you cannot draw any useful comparison.
Re:Read the license (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:I live in Portland (Score:2, Interesting)
The computers in the schools are not well organized or supported. This is due to many donations and no money for admins to keep track. When a computer gets donated to a school it ends up in the hands of whoever can use it. If it has a Microsoft OS installed, then it usually just keeps getting used. In many cases there is no documentation provided with that computer. Where is the physical liscence? No one many know.
How do you audit that? How do you prove your conformance to the rules? Up until now it hasn't been a problem because of the leeway given to schools previously.
I feel that this latest stunt by Microsoft (the marketing department anyway) is a prime example of their moral bankrupt attitude to dealing with the world. It is also an example of why any organization (not just companies anymore!) saddling themselves with Microsoft software should be prepared to shell out readily and often.
I'll be applying for a Linux position at the Multnomah school district right away. They'll need me.
Call the bluff (Score:1, Interesting)
I can't think of a better learning experience for the students.
Re:Understand Licences... (Score:2, Interesting)
The school says that a lot of the machines were donated. Some of them didn't come with any paperwork. "We're bubblegum and baling wire in terms of what we're putting on the desktops. For us to try to manage every donated desktop that comes in from a business or an individual is ridiculous."
I can't imagine why MS wants to get themselves all this bad publicity. Picking on schools, and thus peoples children, will never endear them to the parents.
Re:It's going on at ALL levels of goverment. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:This would be an excellent time. (Score:2, Interesting)
Let's not forget how disruptive it would be for all of the technically-declined people who would suddenly not know how to use their computers.
Sure, it COULD be done, but would it really be doing the users of those computers any favors?
licenses (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I still don't under stand (Score:3, Interesting)
Uh, you didn't get the point here. You agree to the terms by opening the seal and using the software. If you disagree to the terms, you must step down and not open and use the contract. This is your last point of the post. The schools, however, have not only agreed to the contract in these term, they have also agreed to other contracts as Microsoft forces every big purchaser to do.
Here is the license for reading this post. As soon as ANYONE reads this post, then you (nordicfrost) must send me $25.00.
I disagree, furthermore it is an non-valid contract since the terms are retro-active. You can't make the terms after the terms are met, unless this is agreed upon at an earlier time.
you still get to use the software under the fair use provisions of your copyright law
I don't know how the americans practise law, but there the fair use is limited to art (text, pictures, some video), not computer programs. They fall in under another category in the copyright act.
Re:Understand Licences... (Score:3, Interesting)
The school says that a lot of the machines were donated. Some of them didn't come with any paperwork. "We're bubblegum and baling wire in terms of what we're putting on the desktops. For us to try to manage every donated desktop that comes in from a business or an individual is ridiculous."
I can't imagine why MS wants to get themselves all this bad publicity. Picking on schools, and thus peoples children, will never endear them to the parents.
Yes, of course I read the article. You must think I'm advocating what MS is doing. I don't.
The basic truth is that the school system has entered an agreement with MS at some point, or MS wouldn't have the right to audit. If you get a donated machine, then you either need the license that came with it, buy a new one, or install one that doesn't require that license. I'd vote for the later, I've never heard of a Red Hat audit team.
Re:Excellent counterpoint. I like it! (Score:5, Interesting)
You'll see your full (registered) name, product ID, unique ID's, everthing about your machine and you being accessed by the prompt that says "No personal information is being sent to Microsoft".
Seriously. Try it.
Re:This would be an excellent time. (Score:2, Interesting)
There are more than 25,000 students in Oregon.
Mobilize 500-1,000 Linux consultants for a special "teaching assignment": helping Oregon's students install Linux on all 25,000 computers.
It doesn't take special training to do each install, but multiple installs (say, 15-20) can be overseen at once, by people with adequate experience.
If the logistical details can be achieved (i.e. Linux CDs, consultants, scheduling, workspace requirements, etc.), the actual install can be done in 30 days or less.
This is a real possibility, especially as a real-world, hands-on experience for students who tend to be computer-savvy anyway.
Re:I still don't under stand (Score:2, Interesting)
They do own those computers, both in the Hax0r sense and in every other sense which is important to this discussion.
A computer is only useful in the sense that it can be used to run software. When you run software written by someone else, it will perform those functions which the software author programmed it to perform. If part of the author's goal is to use that computer to their own benefit, the fact that you bought the hardware makes no difference. And while the software itself can only do so much, much software is accompanied by a license agreement which greatly extends the rights you've granted to that software author, according to their demands.
This is what makes software so different from anything else, and makes a software monopoly so much more dangerous than anything else; software has loyalty. A computer which has been indoctrinated by Microsoft (or any other software manufacturer, including open source) becomes an agent of the will of the software author. In most cases, the author just wants the software to perform as you expect, the other cases we often call spyware. But Microsoft has proven themselves particularly good at using their control over the operating system software to promote their applications software, and vice-versa. These are the network effects Judge Jackson noted and was infuriated by. Open source has the same ability to take over your computer for purposes other than what you want, but of course it's a lot harder to do with many eyes looking at the source than it is to in a precompiled binary protected by a non-disclosure agreement and a "no reverse engineering" license clause.
Many people don't realize what they're getting themselves (or their organization) into when they blindly accept a license agreement. In this case, Microsoft doesn't have to force the school to undergo an audit, because the school already agreed to undergo an audit when they accepted the license.
Think about it this way; if Microsoft were to introduce a new program "Microsoft Four: the answer to the age old question what do you get when you add two and two?" which always comes up with the answer five you would have no recourse save what Microsoft offers to give you out of the kindness of its heart. Read the license: AS IS, NO WARRANTY. And if part of the license terms you agreed to included allowing them access to your hardware whenever they demand, why do you think you should be relieved of your end of the bargain?
Re:Excellent counterpoint. I like it! (Score:3, Interesting)
Get the word out... (Score:3, Interesting)
Many of the schools I've talked to love the idea of using a free & open operating system in their classes, but the thought of moving over to Linux "just becuase" is hard to sell.
Articles like these are the ammunition I need to show these schools the "light" and have them migrate over. If anyone has any articles like this one (involving schools) or good reference contacts I could use, please let me know! (see website for email addr.) I've done the Googling and found some good stuff, but it's always nice to get the word out.
Re:Understand Licences... (Score:2, Interesting)
So according to Microsoft, if old Gateways come to your school, you can't install anything but the original Microsoft product on it, before you can upgrade. If you didn't get the original OS, you can't accept the computer at all.
And with the current antitrust proceedings, I'm sure we all know how knowledged Microsoft is with the law.
Sorry, I use some Microsoft products, but their bullying tactics are getting rediculous. Thankfully I am moving to Linux and BSD. Before my Win98SE is no longer supported, I'll no longer need to upgrade it.
It's Familiarity! (Score:2, Interesting)
Not only that, but I remember in Elementary School, there used to be that PTA night where Microsoft Employees come around to show products and encourage them as i've seen in one of the earlier comments.
Many kids may also be arrogant about how to get to programs they already know "I don't care about computers, as long as I go to Start>Programs>America Online that's what I'll use, would be what most teenagers would say. Not only are schools scared of change, but something like implementing Linux will take a a long time before it can be adopted by both teachers and students, so they may have documents sync well with AbiWord, Gnumeric, KPresenter and such.
While implementing Linux as a free solution giving schools more power over what they use the money for, it needs marketing and customer familiarity. Companies like Mandrake and Red Hat should just go out there and market as well as make their products a few steps closer to how aWindows looks and feels.
Re:just a question (Score:2, Interesting)
The incentive to join this program was you got course credit/honors credit for basically doing... nothing, a lot of the time. Playing CS, helping a teacher find the bloody "A:\ Drive", or sleeping on the office couch was my typical day in that class.
Re:Excellent counterpoint. I like it! (Score:2, Interesting)
Every one.
Again, I can't say why you're not seeing this, but I've seen it with every OS (minus 3.1x and XP (since I refuse to touch XP)).
Too Late For Portland, Long Term Plan (Score:2, Interesting)
As a producer, director, and designer of educational software, I have been noodling a plan to help open up educational software for a couple of years. The past few months have solved a lot of problems in this area, and I am especially intrigued with the K-12 Linux work going on in Portland.
I am the co-designer of The Incredible Machine, and I want to see software like that essentially given to the schools. Now that the fine people in Portland have solved the operating system problem, and free computers with enough power are routinely given to schools, we need to spearhead an effort to get more software created for that Linux on P200 platform.
I have held off getting involved because I have a couple of start ups, but this move by Microsoft has pushed me over the edge. My start ups create games, and have some game development technology that could kick start this effort. I don't have time to help install Linux, but definitely want to get in touch with people that are interested in pushing MS out of the classroom. My email is posted on my site and in my profile (but I'm not sure