MS Pressuring NW Schools: Pay Up, Or Face Audit 870
razvedchik writes: "As reported in this article in the Portland, OR newspaper, The Oregonian, Microsoft is pressuring 24 school districts in the northwest to agree to their Microsoft School Agreement licensing scheme or undergo an audit in 60 days. Multnomah ESD, which covers the greater Portland area and has around 25,000 computers, has to either decide to accept the license at about $500,000 or undergo the audit which it does not have time to prepare for. Of significant interest is the fact that a significant majority of these schools are experimenting with using Linux. Multnomah ESD has its own thin-client Linux distro called K12LTSP."
I still don't under stand (Score:3, Insightful)
This would be an excellent time. (Score:5, Insightful)
You would think with such a large focus on MS right now they'd not pull this kind of crap especially in a tight economy and a region full of protestors. Should be interesting to see how this develops.
Capitolism at Work (Score:3, Insightful)
This is a pretty dumb move imo of course as it will do nothing but drive the schools to look to cheaper (free) OSes, but it's well within Microsoft's right to do dumb things.
Volunteer (Score:3, Insightful)
Help the schools out with a little bit of your time and expertise.
Not the way apple did it (Score:3, Insightful)
Bullying the local school children mob style probably won't win them the following they were after in the first place. I wonder if the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation will start to pick on all the Public Libraries they have pushed Windows on.
Whatever happened to 'Innocent until proven guilty (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Capitolism at Work (Score:5, Insightful)
It's about fear and control, nothing else. It's funny, and a little scary to watch them scrambling like this: it can only help the competition.
It's going on at ALL levels of goverment. (Score:5, Insightful)
A friend of mine works for an arm of the VA (Veterans Affairs) According to this friend, the VA is being systematically searched by M$ for license compliance, so far with grim results. Supposidly the VA is about 20million out of compliance with M$ products. It doesn't just stop at M$ stuff though.
While M$ is doing their "sweeps" they will make it their business to report any competitors product being out of license as well. This includes everything from an over the limit shareware version of winzip, to "borrowed" installed copies of quicken, and the like.
It's pretty clear what is going on. The states that have fined M$ are owed money, but all M$ has to do is prove they are out of license compliance.
M$ We pay up when you pay us for our software
It's a pretty smart tactic on M$'s part when you think about it. It's not like M$ hasn't known for years everyone pirates their software to hell. It's just kinda funny how they use it as a trump card to save their ass.
interesting timing (Score:2, Insightful)
I sure wouldn't want disruptions then. I wonder why they didn't time it so that the audit had to happen mid-summer or some other non-peak time instead.
I wonder why... (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously tho, what keeps the school from telling them to bugger off? Could Microsoft get a court order to allow their audit teams to search (especially if the school sent a statement to the effect of "we won't be using your software anymore, so don't bother with the audit")?
Do the Math (Score:1, Insightful)
That is $20 a copy. Deal with it or switch to linux. Yup, those horrible horrible businessmen.
I live in Portland (Score:5, Insightful)
So what the combo of less property tax and more gambling has done is shift the tax burden for schools from business to individuals, and disproportionately to poorer individuals, who tend to gamble more (this is not a value judgement, just a fact).
Also, Portland currently has the highest unemployment in the nation - about 9.5% last I checked. Furthermore, our Superintendent or Schools
I hope that helps put this quote from the article in context: The trouble is, if 60 days isn't enough time to audit 25,000 machines it sure as hell isn't enough time to convert them to Linux. It boggles my mind that Microsoft is going so far out of its way to piss people off. [Insert ob. Princess Cinnamon-Bun quote here]
Re:I still don't under stand (Score:3, Insightful)
The basis is the license agreement. The outside of the CD case or envelope containing the key to the program clearly states that you have to agree to the contract terms set forth by the manufacturer of the product in order to use it.
This is a valid contract that you agree to as soon as the conditions are met. No matter how much I dislike the terms in the license agreement, I accept them by doing this. Individuals and cooperations have very wide opportunities to make contracts and agreements between themselves. This is how Microsoft can get away with the audits and other procedures that are elsewhere infringments.
Microsoft have, from a juridical viewpoint, extremely draconian contract terms. I have read the license agreement, and believe that they are not lawful here (In Norway). We have a very strong consumer protection law and the Microsoft agreement violates this on several different occasions.
Disclaimer: IAALS (I am a law student)
Re:linux in school (Score:3, Insightful)
It's amazing how much Microsoft relys on users being absolutely scared to death to use something other than windows. If kids learn its not really all that different to use a windows machine as it is to use an Apple or Linux w/ Gnome or KDS, then thats a good thing. Maybe all those single GUI arguments will go by the wayside, too. We should be teaching our kids how to run a computer not exactly what button to click. GUI environments are alike enough that you should be able to teach students the basic concepts that make any GUI workable.
TCO (Score:1, Insightful)
Protection money? (Score:5, Insightful)
> districts, Microsoft is demanding that they
> conduct an internal software audit to "certify
> licensing compliance." In a March letter, the
> software giant gave Portland Public Schools
> 60 days to inventory its 25,000 computers.
To me, this sounds like Microsoft is threatening to have its goons "audit" the school at a time when the school probably can't afford the staff to do the audit.
> Ah, but wait. Microsoft has an offer it thinks
> you can't refuse, if only to avoid the audit: the
> vaunted Microsoft School Agreement. Under
> the terms of this agreement, a school or
> district simply counts its computers and
> pays Microsoft somewhere in the
> neighborhood of $42 per machine for one
> systemwide annual license.
If the school can't afford the audit, they can pay Microsoft a yearly tribute to not audit them, but they lose access to the software once they stop paying. And they have to pay for even non-Microsoft computers, like iMacs.
> The school districts are considered guilty of
> software piracy until they can prove they're in
> licensing compliance. If the district can't
> drum up the staff to manage the inventory,
> Microsoft is willing to show up with its own
> audit crew, but if a single computer is found
> with illegal or undocumented software, the
> district must pay for the audit.
I wouldn't be surprised if once they get schools into this subscription idea, eventually the annual tribute for Microsoft software for Apple computers will be higher than that of Windows-based computers.
Man, someone should stop them before they become a monopoly!
Re:linux in school (Score:2, Insightful)
Even if school is actually just to turn out a legion of docile sheep ready to submit to their supervisors (which does seem likely), do you actually think that someone who can use KDE is going to have more than 2 minutes of trouble figuring out winwhatever? The GUI changed from 95 to 98 to NT 4.0 to ME to XP. That doesn't seem to be a huge problem. And kids have less fear of tech than grownups, so a different UI is less stressful.
Re:linux in school (Score:5, Insightful)
For good or bad, most of these GUI environments are pretty much the same, as is the common software which runs in them. Click on the picture of a printer to print, click on the character in italic to change the font to italic, etc. It's not very difficult to made the adjustment, in my opinion. Figuring out which option is on what menu can be a pain, but that's what Help is for, no?
Besides, if other schools are like the ones local here, all they're teaching is basic stuff that most kids could figure out in an hour or so if the needed to: word processing, spreadsheet basics, etc. Kids come into schools knowing how to use a mouse and keyboard and even if they don't it takes less than a day to teach them. I don't see a real threat to their 'competitive advantage' if they go to a school using Macs or Linux boxes in place of Windows.
The more I keep dealing with computers, the more it resembles a bad redneck romance: constantly flipping between "I love you so much!" and "Baby, why you gotta make me hit you?"
If you agree to the EULA, they can do whatever... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Something to volunteer for (Score:4, Insightful)
Just go to your local school district, and say "Hi, would you like me to install linux on all your computers, for free?"
They will not want you to. Almost every compsci teacher in a highschool is either
a. convinced there is nothing but microsoft
b. anything but microsoft/apple is illegal
c. Linux is evil
d. Linux is hard
Trust me, I've tried. I brought up linux with the computer teacher at my school, and he said "is that that OS those freakin long haired geeks out in Colorado came up with?!"
I finally did get a full lab setup this year, cause I'm now the tech dude, but no one wants to use it. I made it extremly simple, huge netscape icon, and all they use it for is web surfing. From what I hear it is that the teachers are just to unfamiliar with it.
And don't even think about trying to reteach a teacher. Everyone I've ever tried to teach something to just stares blankly at me like "I didn't become a teacher to learn more shit, go the fuck away!" and either they ignore you, they forget, and the rare few that likes it do come along, but its rare.
Understand Licences... (Score:5, Insightful)
1 CD
50 Certificates
You can now install the software on 50 machines. Sure.
Now part of the agreement is that you have to maintain a database that includes a list of all the machines you have the software on and account for each one under license. So if you installed Office on 51 machines, you are out of license and need to buy more. At any time, MicroSoft can ask for an audit, and you have to produce the licenses and the list of computers. Pretty simple but....
Since I've worked for education I can tell you one simple fact:
It's understaffed and has a high turnover rate.
So when Microsoft says "Where are the licenses for these NT machines.", the poor tech has no idea, because he didn't order them and the guy who did moved to San Francisco to work for a start-up. So microsoft then offers to look for you... and these guys comb through every little room to find stacks of machines you haven't plugged in for two years, and they boot them up. And the new lab you just installed with that same CD earlier... well, you can't find the certificates, but you're sure they were all covered.
Needless to say things get ugly quick.
So to answer you question, where do they get the right? You give it to them when you agree to the license.
Re:linux in school (Score:2, Insightful)
I was one of the VERY few folks fortunate enough to actually have a mini-computer at my high school in the 80's. The fact that I was introduced to Unix without all the scary BS that the media presents about steep learning curves and other such tripe has helped considerably. The child user will NOT be restrained by learning the more complex model of computing before learning windows. With the pace of computing being what it is, I would say that the unwashed, undereducated masses that *gasp* learned Unix instead of Windows would indeed be far better off for the experience, since the unix model has a tendency to be much more applicable to the real world 5 years from now. As it stands, learning windows 200x gains you nothing, since the 'Experience' will change in 2 years anyway, and the programming model along with it.
This is an observation gleaned from watching several major employers grope their way back to Unix after disasterous ERP/large package attempts on Win2000/SQL Server. Ask any consultant, Windows rules! (heh, at 400$ an hour for cleanup fees).
Oh and BTW, knowing how to use excel does not mean you can do anything meaningful with it. I've seen way to many MBA assholes who are 'excel wizards' but have no idea how a business runs. Pretty graphs and powerpoint presentations do not a business make. Down there, wayyy down in the core of most systems, you'll usually find Unix systems. I know this, it's my job.
My gripe here is if folx were faced with actually having to learn anything along the way, everyone's life would be easier. IT gets better users, Management gets... better users. Technology gets easier to implement, etc.
On the other hand, the problem of who will teach it is a bit more questionable...
Chitlenz
Re:This would be an excellent time. (Score:5, Insightful)
wow, they even count iMacs (Score:4, Insightful)
If this isn't blackmail and anti-competitive, I don't know what is.
Re:This would be an excellent time. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Read the license (Score:3, Insightful)
If you registered even one copy of their software within the organization/school system, then MS would have the notion that you probably have more than one application of theirs... then they would have cause to audit you. Yes, it is a damn shame that MS (or any other company), but people still don't read/understand what they are agreeing to when the 'agree' to the EULA of any software. There was a story posted to /. not too long ago about this very topic...
Not a "thin client", not a distro (Score:3, Insightful)
Terminal servers are aimed at the same market, so naturally the marketroids have stolen the "thin client" jargon. But it's a totally different technology. Whoever invented the LTSP acronym knew this -- let's all emulate him or her.
And if you actually read the page you pointed to, you discover its not a distro either. Which is actually a good thing, since you can combine it with a distro to run it on a variety of platforms. Hmm, should work with my 386, 486, and Sparcstation doorstops. I should maybe configure it, then donate the result to some public library where they have long lines of people waiting to use the Web machines.
As a NW school techie... (Score:3, Insightful)
However, to those of you saying "Just use Linux," I tried. You know what, administering classroom Linux systems is hard. I was working on a X terminal Linux (then FreeBSD) network at Da Vinci middle school for over a year. It had to be X terminals because the little machines couldn't handle it. The staple computer at FHS is the P166 with 16MB RAM from CTL ("Crap Technology for Losers," as it was called), the middle school had some machines even worse. These machines can handle Office or IE on win95. They couldn't handle X with Netscape/Mozilla or StarOffice. With a server running the programs it was almost usable. However, we didn't have automounted floppy drives working, sometimes samba was flakey, sometimes people would have troubles opening netscape (it was _slow_) or something else happened. The teacher I was working with was really interested and excited, but didn't have the proficiency to be a sysadmin. I didn't have the time to be it, after spending my days at Franklin.
A number of teachers at a school can do basic Windows repair, but paid admins rarely stay at a school for more than a couple of years. The warm fuzzies of working for the public schools did not make up for the lack of pay or the crap they had to put up with ("I need you
Re:I still don't under stand (Score:2, Insightful)
I get the impression that you haven't been in a high school lately.
The "most" students that you talk about are indeed the vast majority. They do things like steal the 802.11b cards out of the iBooks and pop the keys off the keyboard.
The smart ones figure out all sorts of tricks, and they show off to their friends, and they show it to thier friends, and soon an exploit is common knowledge in the student body.
The programs that limit functinoality are fair to middlin' in my experience. Like if they don't let you rename files they don't stop you from going into a Save As dialog and clicking twice on a filename to change it. That's just one example.
Or if they do in fact prevent mischief, they make the computer basically useless.
Audits to lock a market (Score:1, Insightful)
This is not very different from our local thugs who occassionally stop by and say "it would be a shame if something terrible happened to your store. Perhaps we can provide you with insurance..."
Microsoft Vs. The Little Guy (Score:2, Insightful)
It's my impression that the often friendly, affable-if-nerdy face of Mr. Gates does hide a darker side, one which has more disdain for the little guy than the PR suggests, i.e. "we're providing what the customer wants, why is that so wrong?" I think we see where it actually ends up.
As far as switching from Microsoft to something, I expect Apple would be easier than Linux, for two reasons.
1. Not all school computer use is classroom, administration relies heavily on wordprocessors, spreadsheets, and various canned software packages, which Linux has a start on, but not as well as Apple.
2. Educational programs are plentiful between Mac and PC, not so plentiful for Linux. It should be motivation for those who are OpenSource/GPL enthusiasts or evangelists to actually create, but it's easier to be an armchair quarterback.
Re:It's going on at ALL levels of goverment. (Score:3, Insightful)
Which means that the next line should be:
Of course, that would require some more time in court. But it's not good for long-term viability to base your business on illegal profits from the government, because they'll want the money back eventually.
Grow up. (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft has essentially said, "J'accuse. You have unlicensed software. Either audit all your 25,000 PCs in the next sixty days (by the way, that's about 17 computers an hour, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 60 days), or have us do it. If we do it, and find one - count 'em, one - computer out of compliance, you pay for the software you owe, plus the cost of the audit."
Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that they're fully in compliance with the licenses, with the exception of one PC some shmuck donated to them last week. Doing the audit is an impossibility for them. If Microsoft does it and finds the one PC, they pay (through the nose) for the audit.
Plus, it's not like Microsoft had specific reason to believe that these guys were out of compliance: the "random" audit, according to the article, targets "the nine largest school districts in Oregon and the 15 largest in Washington."
If a cop busts down your neighbor's door, you don't say "serves him right for stealing people's stuff," until they demonstrate that, you know, the neighbor actually stole something. Don't do it here.
Microsoft will die in the public opinion. (Score:3, Insightful)
In a civil case people on juries have preconceived ideas about defendants. Right or wrong, people generally place schools in the "good" category. Microsoft will come off looking like a complete ogre.
Many of the computers our poor, under funded schools have come from donated computers. Many of these computers came with no documentation and no original software CDs. By Microsoft's own licensing agreement binds the operating system license to a particular PC. If the person who donated the PC kept the original CDs, the computer still has a license.
These schools need to make this an issue. They need to make sure that it becomes news. Microsoft will be forced to back down or die in the public opinion. After that I would recommend that the schools fdisk every single computer that they own and install Linux.
Re:Read the license (Score:5, Insightful)
School Friendly OSS Distribution (Score:1, Insightful)
I propose that a school-friendly OSS distribution be created to allow school districts to migrate to Linux. This would include a classroom distribution and a "backoffice" distribution. This is a perfect project to show the socioeconomic and technical argument for OSS. Otherwise, school system are not going to have a choice because Linux is currently not a viable alternative.
Re:This would be an excellent time. (Score:1, Insightful)
The marketing arm of Linux (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:OK. Now I'm MAD (Score:1, Insightful)
Installing an OS is one thing...but you can't do that and nothing else and claim you're solving the problem.
Microsoft is to blame for piracy (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft has done nothing meaningful in the past to prevent piracy of their software. They, along with everyone else dropped copy protection on the software. Fine, consumers wanted that. But, on the Macintosh side we see vendors all the time make their software AWARE of other copies of it running on the network. When I install Photoshop TWICE using the SAME registration code, it complains when that second copy is running at the same time. Since my users need to run it simultaneously, I need to purchase a second copy (or disconnect a user from the network...which isn't viable.)
Microsoft, if they really wanted to prevent piracy, would have done the SAME THING. They would have made their applications network aware and they would have checked to see if a second copy was running somewhere. If they had done this, there would not be piracy in the corporate, government, or academic environments to the extent there is today.
It is hard to keep track of every piece of software that an end-user might sneak into your company. Since Windows 9.x didn't have any security, you couldn't stop users from installing it. Because the applications weren't network aware, you wouldn't know when someone installed duplicate copies...not even when an administrator did it.
Because Microsoft did not take reasonable steps to prevent piracy, I think Microsoft should not have the right to force people to audit and payup. At least, not until such time as Microsoft plugs the holes that make piracy so easy.
Re:just a question (Score:1, Insightful)
one good one
seriously, tho you make a good point - I think this sort of thing is best done by making a "golden master" image that is used on all machines. something generic enough that it doesn't have to be tweaked. then if something is borken the teacher just has to reimage the machine
Re:I still don't under stand (Score:3, Insightful)
Where did you even come up with that ridiculous idea? To use the software legally, all I have to do is pay for it. EULAs are a joke. You cannot retroactively apply any arbitrary terms on something someone has already bought.
Re:This would be an excellent time. (Score:2, Insightful)
Number two: Technically declined people have no problem with linux. In my tests, if you don't know much about computers, a start button is a start button is a penguin/gear/whatever button. Openoffice/Kword = MS word, and they don't know the difference.
Those that have trouble will be the ones who are used to MS, the teachers and upper grades. I am sure the school has _some_ licences, so no doubt they could leave labs open for windows if neccessary.
Re:I still don't under stand (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:just a question (Score:1, Insightful)
Think of the problems trying to get away with a *single* golden image CD for alllllll the various kinds of hardware a school district winds up with after a few years of donations, etc. A suitably modularized kernel will *probably* handle all the various motherboard, NIC and disk I/O hardware, but the audio/video setups of a single master disk would drive X crazy. I think the idea of no tweaking is wishful thinking.
Software Cost better include Compliance Testing (Score:3, Insightful)
I suspect that if the price of software was put in those terms to schools any time they purchased Microsoft software, they might start seriously looking at alternatives. Compared to the base (education) software price, the compliance price might be many times higher.
Besides, what teacher wants to have the cost of the compliance agent subtracted from his budget each and every year?
Re:Alternative #3 @# +1 ; Creative @# (Score:3, Insightful)
Schools, at least in the state of Colorado, are almost entirely Mac-based. If lucky they might have a PC in the main office; but even that isn't all that common.
I'd be surprised if these school districts really had so many PCs as to make the whole thing worthwhile. It might just be easier to "donate" the PCs to some organization, or sell them like in a "bake sale." Then tell Microsoft to take a flying leap and smear the hell out of them in the news saying, "Thanks to Microsoft we had to get rid of 563 functional PCs."
Or simply pay someone to format the dang machines and install Linux on them. Even if they don't use them (at least right away) it lets them keep the PCs, avoid the audit, avoid the $500k license, and figure out what to do with the PCs later when they have time.
It seems like just about any of these solutions would be cheaper than paying $500k per year.
Microsoft is smoking something if they're trying to "milk" school districts. Of all the organizations in the country they can try to milk, school districts are among those that have the least discretionary funds. They always have shortages just trying to handle the students. This could very easily cause Microsoft some bad PR (already has) and at the same time push the districts away from MS.
Good thinking, MS. Keep up the good work. Given enough time I'm convinced MS will put itself out of business.