Laptop Methanol Fuel Cells Promised This Week 249
securitas writes: "Wired tells us that Germany's Smart Fuel Cell is about to ship the first methanol based fuel cells for laptops and other electronic devices. The company says a 120 milliliter fuel cell can power a 15W notebook for 10 hours, and you can refill it without shutting down."
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
10 hours without shutting down! (Score:4, Funny)
About time (Score:2)
Re:sigg are the best. (Score:2)
Always get SOMEONE ELSE to refil your Trangia when its lit - and sit OPPOSITE them!
Flamable? (Score:4, Interesting)
/max
Re:Flamable? (Score:2)
-Dr. Nick
Re:Flamable? (Score:2, Insightful)
Inflammable = capable of burning very much
Inadmissible = not admissible
"Flammable" wasn't originally a word in English, but in the era of lawsuits and warning signs about obvious dangers, marking a gasoline tank as "inflammable" left the possibility of being misunderstood as "not flame-able". Or that the lawyers representing the estate of some idiot that lit a cigarette while standing next to the gas tank would claim in court that he read it that way... So the word "flammable" was coined. No english-speaker is likely to misunderstand that -- and now (in the US at least), they mark the things in Spanish too. (This just makes me wonder about the French-Canadians, Swedes, and Finns up here, or the Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc. in California -- is there room enough for warning messages in every language?)
Re:Flamable? (Score:2)
> Romans -- somehow or other they created two
> very similar prefixes, one meaning "not" and
> the other meaning "very". So as they carried
> over into English, they are quite confusing:
>
> Inflammable = capable of burning very much
> Inadmissible = not admissible
Not quite; you had the prefix "in-", not, and the preposition "in", in, into. Hence, "inflammable", something that tends to burst *into* flames. The rest of your post, including the need to see to the safety of the illiterate, is correct, though.
Chris Mattern
Re:Flamable? (Score:2)
For example the international standard ISO 3864 is described as follows: The graphic-only approach communicates the safety label's message quickly and without the use of words. This is the preferred format in the European community due to the concentration of diverse languages.
In the US the ANSI Z535.4 standard is in use and still includes lots of text.
Re:Flamable? (Score:2)
Re:Flamable? (Score:2)
1. Fire hazard
[Minimized due to the small amount of methanol, and, the fact that its contained in a cartridge. Hard to get at unless you destroy the cartridge]
2. Can it be used as a cigarette lighter?
[If cigarette lighters are allowed on planes now, then they'll allow these as well]
3. Explosion risk
[Possible pressure buildup and spark - however, given small size of methanol cartridge, the risk of explosion is very low, and, even if it did explode, its not likely to be a big explosion]
There may be other issues, but I don't think that will prevent their use on planes. It may be, however, that before you can get on a plane, your fuel cells have to go through a chemical "sniffer" to make sure you're not bringing a cartridge of Sarin gas on board. Or you may have to power up your laptop with it to prove its a fuel cell and not a chemical storage tank.
Re:Flamable? (Score:2)
True story: A guy flying to Columbus, OH from Greenboro, NC thru Pittsburgh called a TALK SHOW from Pittsburgh and said he accidently, non intentionally (he really did not mean to do it) carried a knife on board. Security did not catch it. The funny thing his he could have been fine! But he was a dumb ass and now will probably go to jail just because he got an attack of the stupids. Yeah I think it's stupid now that our government is freaking out over people who have no bad intentions because they are paranoid that this is the way these guys who crashed planes into the WTC acted when they forget the obvious fact that they should have:
1. Never been let in in the first place..
2. Never been here when they were because INS did not deport them in a timely matter as their visa's were expired.
That said, I think it's unlikely that they would let anything such as this on board a jet. Especially when someone eventually trys to use a bic lighter to do something on a plane (instant ban!).
Zero Tolerence rules suck because it discourages people to use common sense!
Re:Flamable? (Score:2)
Re:Flamable? [sic] (Score:3, Insightful)
Lighters (and likely these methanol cartridges) are banned on board. Yet I can carry my Lithium-Ion powered Magnesium laptop on board. Have you ever seen a Magnesium fire? Right, but it's hard to light. Now, have you ever seen a Lithium fire? Do you know what happens when you short a Li-Ion battery? (Heck some Apple, and I think IBM Li-Ions didn't even need to be shorted)
So we're all allowed to something that approximates a thermite grenade, but they're worried about nail files. [sigh]
Bruce Schneier was right [counterpane.com]. It's not about security, it's about the appearance of security to convince the sheeple to fly.
Re:Flamable? (Score:5, Funny)
I'm sorry sir, your methyl alcohol fuel cell is a safety hazard. Can I get you some scotch to take your mind off that?
Re:Flamable? (Score:2)
Plenty of oxygen where planes fly!
It's not a space flight or submarine trip where oxygen supply is limited.
Methanol? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Methanol? (Score:4, Funny)
messing up your documents since drinking
methanol makes you go blind. Alcoholic beverages like Bombay Sapphire contains ethanol.
Don't drink and derive!
Re:Methanol? (Score:2)
Methanol v. Ethanol / The Whiskey Rebellion (Score:5, Informative)
When you ingest ethanol (aka grain alcohol), alcohol dehydrogenase (an enzyme)catalyzes the oxidation of ethanol to acetaldehyde. If you oxidize acetaldehyde, you get then get acetic acid, which can then be oxidized to carbon dioxide.
Conversly, when you oxidize methanol (aka wood alcohol), you get formaldehyde. If you then oxidize that, you get formic acid. The formaldehyde and the formic acid are both toxic with formic acid being the more toxic of the two. The formaldehyde attacks the sensitive protein in the retina making you blind while the formic acid is what kills you.
Because the rate limiting step in methanol oxidation is availability of alcohol dehydrogenase, the clinical treatment for methanol poisoning is, you guessed it, to give large amounts of ethanol. Because the alcohol dehydrogenase has a higher affinity for ethanol than methanol, giving you ethanol will keep the methanol from being catabolized. The "unprocessed" non-toxic methanol can then be cleared by the kidneys.
Also, it should be noted that the prohibition on distilling has absolutely nothing to do with public safety. It is a taxation issue pure and simple. I suggest you pull out a history text and read about something called the Whiskey Rebellion.
antifreeze (Score:2, Funny)
Now here's the funny part. People used to go looking for drinks in the farmers' tires. That wouldn't be too bad in itself, unless you're the farmer. But then a few years ago, they changed antifreeze to methanol, instead of ethanol. So the younger generation, upon hearing the older generations stories of drunken nights in fields, decides to go try it. Now we've got farmer Jones field full of blind, methanol poisoned high school students.
I really get a kick out of stories like this. I really like those Darwin Awards, too, though. *shrug*
Re:antifreeze (Score:2)
There is also another alcohol used in anti-freeze. This is ethelene glycol or ethan-1-2-ol, considerably more toxic than either ethano or methanol.
Re:Methanol v. Ethanol / The Whiskey Rebellion (Score:2)
15W notebook? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:15W notebook? (Score:2, Informative)
The actual Notebook can take around 26 watts or more, depending upon what you are doing with it, especially heavy when watching DVDs (constant DVD motion plus the CPU running at full blast for the software decoder).
15 watts may be enough for a toy Notebook, but it ain't enough for mine!!!!!
Re:15W notebook? (Score:3)
The other question is how the paranoiac, irrational, and just plain stupid airport security people are going to react to that cache of flammable material. Methanol is pretty similar to cigarette lighter fluid (for the old-style lighters with wicks), and should be safer than butane. But IIRC there are about 28ml in an ounce, so 120 ml = 4 ounces, which could make a bigger fire than you'd want to deal with in close quarters. I think the Russians in Stalingrad would tackle a German tank with an 8 ounce soda bottle filled with gasoline -- three methanol cartridges would be about equivalent in energy.
Of course, another idea would be to trim back the bloatware so you didn't need such a powerful CPU or a continuously spinning HD...
Infrastructure (Score:5, Insightful)
The infrastructure for methanol will have to be vastly improved before a methanol fuel cell battery will ever be successful in laptops. I work as an integrator, and I take my laptop on-site for a lot of the jobs that I do. Most days on-site I work for 10 hours or longer on a system, carrying my laptop from place to place. The batteries drain, but my two batteries usually have the life to last through the day. When I get back to the hotel at night, I can plug into any outlet to fuel up the batteries.
With the methanol fuel cell, I would need to carry extra charges with me. On a week long trip out of state, that can be a lot of charges. With the current security measures in place at most airports, I doubt that I would be able to take them on the aircraft. Now I need to rely on the local shops to carry the fuel cell cartridges, which may or may not happen, depending upon my location.
Also, if I'm staying in a hotel, charging my batteries is free. If I use the fuel cell, I could get charged $3 per day or more for using my laptop. That's not much if I can write it off as a business expense, but if it is for my two week vacation to Alaska, it can get fairly expensive.
I prefer the convenience of using chemical batteries. I can charge from anywhere, and in a lot of cases, for free.
Re:Infrastructure (Score:2)
However there's nothing to suggest you can't use both, right?
Batteries do tend to be removeable and I am sure most of us run laptops off the mains most of the time, but if like me you go roaming about doing stuff like wardriving a 3 hour battery life just doesn't cut it.
I will be one of the first in the queue to get some methanol action...
Re:Infrastructure (Score:3, Informative)
You can buy it by the gallon in any hardware store or by the 55 gallon drum at a paint wholesaler. It's dirt cheap. It sounds like this particular design takes pre-filled cartridges, but I'd bet it's not long before someone comes up with a way to refill them (see inkjet cartridges).
Re:Infrastructure (Score:2)
Re:Infrastructure (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Infrastructure (Score:2)
What actually matters is how much of the carbon dioxide is from "fossil carbon". Burning wood is more "green" than burning coal. Also you can probably make methanol from crude oil, which isn't very green at all.
Re:Infrastructure (Score:2)
Don't know about coal, but burning wood sure isn't green... Of course it produces CO2, but it also releases SO2 (think acid rain) and (sorry I only know the french term, but it's probably just a word permutation for english) "Hydro-carbure aromatique polycycliques", which are toxic.
Re:Infrastructure (Score:2)
Methanol is simply methane with an oxygen atom wedged in between one of the hydrogens and the carbon. Alcohols are hydrocarbons where you have an OH group joined to a carbon.
For industrial scale chemistry scaling up a "lab" can be easier than using micro organisms.
Re:Infrastructure (Score:2)
"Wood" alcohol (Score:2)
Nope. Plastics and gasoline additives are the two big ones.
As far as it being a clean source of energy.. I'd hesitate on calling that shot. They use energy from (possibly not directly from) fossil fuels to get the stuff in the first place, and seeing as how wood is a major source of it, deforestation is a problem, isn't it?
In this article, I've seen at least 150 people mention wood. The majority of methanol is not made from freakin' WOOD. The annual production in the US is 35.7 million tons per year. If all this methanol was made of wood, the entire Earth would have been stripped bare of trees decades ago.
The majority of methanol used today comes from reforming natural gas (methane). Here is a paragraph from a major manufacturer of methanol:
Methanol is a primary liquid petrochemical made from renewable and non-renewable fossil fuels containing carbon and hydrogen. Also known as Methyl Alcohol (CH3OH), it is manufactured from synthesis gas, a combination of carbon oxides in hydrogen produced from natural gas. Methanol is then synthesized under pressure in a catalytic process and the crude methanol is purified to chemical grade by distillation. Natural gas is the feedstock used in most of the world's production of methanol and typically represents the most significant cost component. Methanol is a chemical building block used to produce formaldehyde, acetic acid and a variety of other chemical intermediates. A significant amount of methanol is also used to make MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether), an additive used in cleaner-burning gasoline.
RTFA again and then follow the link to the American Methanol Institute [methanol.org] halfway through the article.
Re:"Wood" alcohol (Score:2)
Some people have latched on to a common (at least in some parts of the world) name. In complete ignorance of the kind of chemistry involved.
The majority of methanol used today comes from reforming natural gas (methane).
Methane can be derived from either fossil fuels or from renewable sources. Though currently the major source appears to be from the oil industry. Also the same chemical process can be used for industrial production of other alchols. Simply by using a different hydrocarbon...
Re:Infrastructure (Score:3, Insightful)
Good points, proving that the technology won't be for everyone until the local chemist shop (drugstore or druggist to us Norte Americanos) starts carrying methanol cartridges.
But hey, not everybody can get inkjet packs either - yet inkjets are still eminently marketable.
At 33 cents a gallon USD, vendors can easily put a 1000% markup on the refill cartridges. That prospect should quickly take care of the infrastructure problem in capitalist markets! Eventually, you might see business-class hotels keeping methanol on hand in the same way they stock coffee and toothpaste.
--Charlie
Re:Infrastructure (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't know how you're getting to Alaska, or where you're staying when you're there, but I'm guessing $3/day is paltry as compared to other expenses.
(Unless you're driving from Whitehorse and staying in a tent, that is...)
Seriously, though, $3 as a starting point isn't too bad, and it will only drop. Don't forget that those $300 batteries you buy for your laptop don't last forever; if you ran them from full charge to empty 100 times, I'm sure they'd have a good portion of their useful life used up. I'm assuming fuel cells will have a far longer duty cycle, as long as more fuel is supplied.
I had a Dell, less than 6 months old, whose two expensive batteries are now useless. Maybe a manufacturing defect, but try convincing Dell of that.
-me
Hydrogen on a plane (Score:5, Insightful)
I think this is an overly dismissive statement. Methanol itself is really just a hydrogen storage method. You throw in some carbon to stabilise the hydrogen and as a result, you produce carbon dioxide when the fuel is used up.
There's a lot of work going on to find non-chemical storage methods for hydrogen, such as sponges or matrices that would be explosion-proof. There's no reason to believe that this won't eventually succeed in a safer and more efficient fiel cell than methanol based ones. It will just take longer.
Re:Hydrogen on a plane (Score:4, Insightful)
This will all end when a big plane crash and high % alcohol drink go in the same heading on a newspage.
It is not allowed now to use any electronic device during start or landing. Why? Just in case probably. It is never allowed to use any device that uses an antenna? why? maybe because they can not tell if it is receiving (mostly harmless) or sending (interfering with cockpit/flight controls).
As security will become more important less and less bagage will be allwod in the passenger area. hydogen or methanol will be less of an issue.
Image a refill of either fuel onboard an airplane. or worse, a refill in an airplane where smoking is allowed. Or worse (in a few years), a refill of a taiwan produced laptop that has been dropped a few times.
also see: [slashdot.org]
http://slashdot.org/science/02/01/02/1534252.sh
Evil Antennae (Score:3, Informative)
We seem to be developing some weird urban legends relating to electronic devices. My cable TV company ordered me not to install an FM splitter on my own -- if not done by a "trained technician" (snicker), it might cause airplanes to fall out of the sky. Many gas stations now ban people from talking on their cells while fueling, because somebody told someone that they'd heard somewhere that a gas station was destroyed when sparks from a cell ignited the fumes. (Think about it, what has more circuitry, a cell phone or a car?) And of course, flight attendents have all kinds of vague safety rules they have to enforce, most of which they don't actually understand. So you can't use your computer if it has a CD drive, because somebody thinks lasers are an issue. And somebody decided "anything with an antenna"...
Re:Evil Antennae (Score:2, Informative)
No i was thinking about the rule "No antenna".
But if you put a cell (GMS 900/1800)phone next to an FM radio you KNOW it disturbs the radio signal when it rings! no urbam myth there. It is about safety. And since receivers are far away they use the peek wattage.
local systems would get saturated every time a plane flies over them.
Are you talking about GSM (900Mhz/1800Mhz)phones? this one is COMPLETELY new to me.
About the use of portable computers on airplanes. I know in the beginning of the portables the screens of the portables causes radio interference.
Re:Evil Antennae (Score:2)
Re:Evil Antennae (Score:2)
Are you talking about GSM (900Mhz/1800Mhz)phones? this one is COMPLETELY new to me.
Hmm, Leuk_he you need to read the conditions of use of your phone!
It is not only the aviation rules that for reasons of aviation safety ban the use of phones on board planes, it's also the telco's that threaten you with loosing your subscription when you use it (the cell phone) from a plane and thus upsetting the cellular system.
You do know how the cellular system works I hope...
Re:Evil Antennae (Score:2)
Unless you install a cell in the aircraft... Which is probably less kit than "Sky phones", since you don't need to provide handsets and credit card readers.
Re:Evil Antennae (Score:2)
Although that may be true, the ban on cell phones is due to the fact that airplane-tower communications are all done in AM, and are therefore quite susceptible to EMI, especially if it is close by.
My cable TV company ordered me not to install an FM splitter on my own -- if not done by a "trained technician" (snicker), it might cause airplanes to fall out of the sky. Many gas stations now ban people from talking on their cells while fueling, because somebody told someone that they'd heard somewhere that a gas station was destroyed when sparks from a cell ignited the fumes. (Think about it, what has more circuitry, a cell phone or a car?)
I think you mean an RF splitter, and yes, a splitter not properly installed can give off more EMI than is allowed by the FCC, and part of the reason for the FCC rules is to prevent interference with airplane communications.
Although a cell phone causing a spark that ignites a gas station is dubious, I could see a cell phone ban in gas stations due to the inattentiveness caused by them. Someone somewhere probably drove off with the gas nozzle still in his tank, ripped it off, and caused an explosion because he/she was talking on his cell phone and not paying attention.
So even though the reasons have been exagerated, there is a grain of truth to them. And yes, a cell phone has far more circuitry in it than a car, if you mean length of conductive material. Cars certainly have more power running through them though.
Re:Evil Antennae (Score:2)
Which is obviously silly. If every loose CATV connection were an aviation hazard, September 11 would be happening daily!
You're assuming it happened at all [darwinawards.com]. Huh? How so? Does your car have fewer integrated circuits than your cell? Must be a really old car!Re:Evil Antennae (Score:2)
Re:Evil Antennae (Score:2)
If gadgets can in fact put an entire airplane at risk, the only sensible course of action is to disallow them on board. But they don't do that; instead they say, "pretty please, no FM radios at any time and leave the laptop off until we level off."
If there IS a problem with RFI hindering the pilots, that is a half-assed solution!
Recharging (Score:2, Insightful)
Hmm, the big drawback that I can see is the cost (article quotes $3-5) and equally importantly convenience of refilling the fuel cell.
Good luck to them though.
Where does the waste go? (Score:5, Funny)
Where does this water go? Does it evaporate or am I going to have to take my laptop for a pee?
--
billwashere
Re:Where does the waste go? (Score:2)
It doesn't *have* to go anywhere, really. (Score:2)
Your batteries also produce waste chemicals as they generate electricity to run your devices. Where do those chemicals go? Think about it.
The DMFC technology doesn't need cooling to the degree that other laptop parts do - in fact Li-Ion batteries might get hotter than a DMFC cell, according to the inventors.
I wonder why the article doesn't talk about traditional recharging from a wall outlet? As I understand it, DMFC is an outgrowth of PEM technology, and generic PEM cells can be "run backwards" to recreate their fuel mix - much like a traditional battery, but with the additional requirement of avoiding carbon poisoning of the membrane.
--Charlie
Re:It doesn't *have* to go anywhere, really. (Score:2)
I'm sure there are other reasons this process isn't reversed, and someone who knows more chemistry than me could probably go into depth.
Re:Where does the waste go? (Score:2)
Flight safety(security and breathing)? (Score:3, Interesting)
The other problem is that planes are closed environments. Just as you can't smoke on a plane, it seems possible that any emmisions given off by fuel cells other then water vapor might also cause them to be banned. It may be that the battery won't be abandoned just yet.
Re:Flight safety(security and breathing)? (Score:2)
And 640 K should be enough for anybody. You don't do much international travel, do you?
L.A. to Sydney (Qantas): 14 hours.
New York to Hong Kong (Continental): 16 hours.
Chicago to Hong Kong (United): 15 hours.
Singapore to London (Singapore Airlines): 13 hours-- somewhat longer if you go the other way.
Re:Flight safety(security and breathing)? (Score:2)
Depends on how you fly. The best way I've found to go LA-Sydney is to leave at about 11:30 at night and get in at 8:00 in the morning Sydney time. The flight is so long that by the time you get there you've had a few hours of sleep and your body clock is totally reset.
But you can't always do it that way. I flew from Sydney to LA from noon to noon and didn't get a wink of sleep the whole way. My body just couldn't deal. So 14 hours of batter would have been a good thing.
Another way to recharge your laptop: Stepcharger (Score:3, Interesting)
Homepage [aladdinpower.com]
Image 1 [aladdinpower.com]
Image 2 [aladdinpower.com]
Vaporware (Score:2)
Creating MORE Waste (Score:2, Interesting)
One of the main thrusts behind developing fuel cells is how clean they are. The only exhaust from the process is water. This is great! However, if the methanol charges for the fuel cells are not rechargeable themselves, we will be adding a MORE exhaust to the environment, in the form of the disposed charger. Depending on how the charger is constructed, this can lead to toxic heavy metals breaking down in the earth.
When charging a standard chemical battery, we rely on the cleanliness of the source powering the outlet. Perhaps this technology might be better applied on a larger scale, such as powering an office building, or a small town.
Re:Creating MORE Waste (Score:2)
By the way, weren't the old wick-type cigarette lighters fueled with something like methanol?
Re:Creating MORE Waste (Score:2, Interesting)
You say:
When charging a standard chemical battery, we rely on the cleanliness of the source powering the outlet.
You have to consider though that when charging a battery, you have to put a LOT more power into it when you get out of it.
Plus, when you burn something, only 30-40% of the energy contained in coal or gas can get converted into electricity. With a fuel cell, you are turning the energy directly into electricity in the way of a chemical reation and you get figures without looking it up, so I may be wronng, along 90% or more.
Another plus is that methanol occurs abundently on the earth. Methane gets produced almost everywhere, add a bit of water to that and let the reaction happen over time, you get methanol. You don't need electricity to create it.
So it is actually quite clean, except for the disposable plastic containers. But if these can be reused, then it's a big environmental plus.
About 20-30% efficiency (Score:2, Interesting)
10 hours of 15 watts is 150 watt-hours, cca 540 kJ.
120ml of methanol burned means about 500kcal of energy - about 2 MJ max retrievable by burning.
This does indeed look nice.
Re:About 20-30% efficiency (Score:2, Insightful)
1 KWh goes for around a dime where I live. So at 0.15 KWh from 120ml of methanol (based on your calculations), the equivalent power-utility provided electricity would cost 1.5 cents. If we assume the methanol goes for about a dollar a gallon, then 120ml (roughly 1/24th of a gallon) would cost 4 cents. That comes out to about a quarter per KWh if you use the methanol fuel cell. That's pretty similar to solar costs.
Hmmm. That's too bad. I was envisioning a massive refitting of the world's power delivery infrastructure.
Re:About 20-30% efficiency (Score:2)
How does that compare to ordinary batteries? Remember, the 70-80% that gets wasted becomes heat. How hot do these things get?
Better use in cars (Score:2, Interesting)
No gas, just methanol, 33 cents a gallon...
Is Methanol Connected to Methane? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Is Methanol Connected to Methane? (Score:2, Funny)
Coleman Alternative (Score:2, Informative)
I recall an earlier [slashdot.org] Slashdot article discussing the Coleman [colemanpowermate.com] portable fuel cell generator. This would seem like a better solution for the laptop user, as you still have the option to charge from a standard wall outlet, but if you are in the field you could carry a resevoir of methanol and the Coleman for recharging in the wild.
Tough push for consumers (Score:3, Funny)
It's going to be a tough haul convincing consumers, especially because most don't see that they *are* acutally paying something when they plug in their laptop or cellphone to charge. You also can't beat the distribution of electrical outlets. There may be a fuel cell depot at every gas station and news stand, but I doubt there will be one right beside your bed.
Personally, I'm still holding off on my hydrogen from air bit, or burning oxygen for fuel. We have plenty of "fuel" in the air, why not use it? And what about energy from plain old H2O we've been hearing about? Burn both the Hydrogen and Oxygen and you have no waste.
Ultimatly, we will have to see. For now I would be for a hybrid battery/fuel cell slot system where you can get the instant fill-up when you need it, but still not be left in the dark when the minimart in All Pains, Michigan doesn't cary your fuel cell brand.
Re:Possible, and an old dream... (Score:2, Insightful)
The energy to break the molecular bonds in H20 is always going to exceed the energy released in the reaction of Hydrogen and Oxygen to form water.
Yes, the first reaction is endothermic, and the second is exothermic, but you're never going to get out more than you put in.
15W? (Score:3, Interesting)
Anyone know what the typical notebook draws? A brief simpleminded look at my Tosh suggests more than 15W... (label on bottom says 19V, 3.5A. Therefore power is 19x3.5?)
Available this week? Really? (Score:2)
I'm still waiting for my year-2000-model flying car...
10 hours is not much (Score:3, Insightful)
If battery usage were really an issue with most laptop users, manufacturers could easily hit the 10 hour mark with more efficient/dimmer backlights and underclocked processors (no one needs 1GHz in a laptop anyway).
The problem is that its a rare laptop user that isn't far from an outlet. Sure, some people want to take a jaunt down to the beach to work on The Great American Novel for 10 hours - but those people are hardly enough to provide a strong market for fuel cells in laptops.
-josh
Not exactly pocket-sized (Score:5, Informative)
A lot of people don't seem to've noticed that this unit won't exactly be convenient to carry around. Their 25W prototype is 120x160x170mm (5"x6.5"x7") and 2.8kg (5lb)! That's less than a large desktop-equivalent laptop but almost double the weight of some lightweight models. I don't know how many road warriors will really want to triple their carry weight and pay extra money for a few extra hours of runtime. It will probably seem much more convenient and cost-effective to get one of those LiPoly external batteries or something.
Re:Not exactly pocket-sized (Score:2)
I would, even if it reduced the runtime. This is the first step in getting fuel cells accepted as mass-market products. If they can successfully break into one market, then they have a chance at another (e.g., fuel cell automobiles). Anything I can do to speed that process along is great.
Re:Not exactly pocket-sized (Score:2)
But how much does your purchase really help that process along? Product revenue is not really much of a factor right now; any company in this space is still getting the vast majority of their funds on a research/speculative basis. The only "point" to selling a product at all right now is:
My point is that individual purchases don't really help much with either of those. If you're serious about promoting a technology, there are better ways than to become part of a trivial revenue stream that probably costs the company more in infrastructure than they actually get out of it. Write your congressmen, donate to advocacy groups or relevant research labs, go to work for one of these companies, put banners on your website...any of these probably do more to promote the technology than actually buying anything. When the products reach the point that they offer a compelling value proposition compared to existing products based on earlier technologies, the dynamics will change, but buying what is still basically an inferior product (whatever promise it represents for the future) is IMO not very effective.
This is not meant as a flame or criticism. If you still feel that there's some value - even if it's just a philosophical point - in actually buying one of these, more power to you. Heh. I'm just trying to point out some reasons why it might not be any more than a gesture.
Outlets? (Score:2, Insightful)
Razorblades and razors (Score:3, Interesting)
It sounds like just like razors and razorblades - sell a cheap razor requiring proprietary razorblades and lock-in your consumers to your brand.
Until companies snap out of this mindset I don't see the technology taking off. You can still make a massive profit by selling them for a buck each or even making refillable ones and your customers will love you for it. The first company to get a clue is likely to see their sales rocket.
Why pay more for this? (Score:2)
Why not consumer refillable isopropyl (Score:2)
Isopropyl is much more easily available (most hotel gift shops even carry it, not to mention every grocery and drug store). If the fuel cells were consumer refillable with isopropyl, they would be accepted by the market much more easily.
Re:Why not consumer refillable isopropyl (Score:2)
If you want top MHz for game playing then top your fuel cell up with funny car fuel. If you're just doing word processing, then drink a couple of beers and pee in it instead.
Number of points (Score:4, Informative)
"Also, if I'm staying in a hotel, charging my batteries is free."
It's not free, the hotels expect you to do it and build it into the cost. If methanol becomes popular with travellers, the hotel will pop down to the hardware store, buy a couple of gallons of methanol, and offer that free on tap to guests too.
"This will become even worse if cells arrive that run off of pure hydrogen-PEM (proton exchange membrane) fuel cells that run on hydrogen"
All PEM fuel cells run on hydrogen. Methanol based fuel cells simply break down the methanol into hydrogen and its constituent parts before it hits the PEM.
"However, if the methanol charges for the fuel cells are not rechargeable themselves, we will be adding a MORE exhaust to the environment, in the form of the disposed charger."
You don't recharge a methanol cell, you just squirt in more methanol to replace what has been used up.
"Ok, fine methanol works as a safe hydrogen storage method, but I was under the impression that fuel cells use hydrogen AND oxygen to create electricity and as a byproduct create H2O. Where does the water go?"
Methanol is 50% oxygen, 37.5% carbon and 12.5% hydrogen. So yes water will be produced and there must be some drainage tap (so you will have to take your laptop for a pee on the plane). There will also be carbon deposits you will have to dispose of. I wonder also how often the PEM has to be changed, as carbon will clog it up if not effectively filtered out.
There are plenty of fuel cell articles at Future Energies [futureenergies.com], including how a fuel cell is heating my local swimming pool! Check it out.
Phillip.
Methanol? I can see it now. (Score:2)
--No one. It's just my Inspiron.
side effects (Score:2)
"my laptop, I ran out of regular methanol so I found a natural source.... did you know that pig farms capture and store the methan gas from the pix excrement?"
I can see the mother earth news neophites are gonna havbe fun with this!
Superchargers (Score:2, Funny)
I just modded my laptop, not only does it have a clear case, a liquid cooled CPU but I put on a 4 barrel micro-holly carb with a supercharger on on the fuel cell and MAN does that baby purr.
With this puppy I can whip any ground based gamerw while in flight. Just kick it into overdrive!
Banned from airlines? (Score:2, Insightful)
Improve current technology (Score:2)
Whereas with liquid fuel, I'd have to worry about extra sloshing out, easier combustion and availability (not to mention price).
Existing Laptops (Score:2)
That would be awfully nice if we can.
Another way for the airlines to gouge. (Score:2)
I can just see them pulling the same thing with fuel cells. Under the guise of "safety," they'll make more bucks by banning fuel cell refilling, forcing you to plug into their special outlets (or use their special "safe" fuel cell fuel) for a fee. Watch for it
(I just wish the airlines would focus upon making money through transportation, and making that a pleasurable experience so do more of it, rather than gouging us every step of the way on extras. Heck, you have our money for the ticket, make us happy with a few cheap extras, and we'll be back for another ticket.)
-me
Re:Ethanol? (Score:2, Funny)
I don't know, but it sounds like a terrible waste!
Re:Ethanol? (Score:3, Offtopic)
The question is: Will the laptop appreciate the fine flavor of its fuel? I rather doubt it. Do what you like with your Scotch, but there's no way I'm putting any of my Cragganmore or Laphroaig into a fuel cell.
--Jim
Re:What about the other fuel cells? (Score:2, Informative)
Are you sure you're talking about the same stuff? I'm only familiar with "meths" as a term from the U.K. and don't think I've ever seen anything labeled as such in this country. Methanol isn't oily. It evaporates quickly and leaves no residue, just like grain or rubbing alcohol. The similarity occasionally causes problems when people try to drink it (it's pretty toxic when ingested).
Older USians may be more familiar with the smell of methanol in the form of mimeograph fluid (used to produce those illegible purple school handouts in the days before cheap copiers and laser printers). I don't mind the smell, myself. It takes me right back to first grade.
Re:Problems with methanol (Score:2, Insightful)
Did you read the article ?
Methanol is 33 cent a gallon and reaaly mass produced. And guess what, available in any hardware store, burning alcohol that's it, cheaper than dirt.
Re:Methanol eh? (Score:2)
Anyone know the composition of the lighter fluid used in the old cigarette lighters with wicks? Was that methanol, some other alcohol, or hydrocarbon?
OTOH, I think 120ml = 4 ounce, which is enough fuel to make a fairly impressive fire in a small closed space like an airliner. And don't believe that 10 hours on one cartridge claim -- you aren't doing much with your laptop if it's running at 15W.
Re:This stuff is poisonous !!! (Score:4, Informative)
I'm sure their "refueling" procedure involves a special tool designed to avoid spills. Methanol can be absorbed through your skin, but if you have a proper system in place you can do it safely. As for using ethanol instead of methanol, you can't just substitute one alcohol for another and expect it to work...
Re:This stuff is poisonous !!! (Score:2)
If they did that, they wouldn't sell much product.
And what about some chineese manufactured notebook that got dropped on concreate 5 times and is still in use by some poor (now probably blind) lamer?
If you drop a lithium ion battery that much, it too will leak. Dropping electronic equipment is bad.
Besides, what percentage of methanol gets to the exaust? Id does have some exaust fluids (gases?), doesn't it? I don't think the proces is that perfect.
These people are chemists and know more about this than you or I. I'm sure they aren't going to release a product that's going to kill people.
There are plenty of things around your house that can kill you. Drinking a bottle of ammonia would be bad, drinking bleach (or even spilling it on your skin) is bad, drain cleaner is extremely dangerous, insecticide will kill you as well as insects, etc etc. It would be ridiculous to say we should all stop using bleach and go back to water and sand just because if you happen to drink a bottle of bleach you'll be in serious trouble.
Don't worry about it so much...
Re:Fuel Cells & the 2nd Law of Thermo (Score:2)
You're always going to put more energy into a storage device than you can effectively get back out. We can't all carry coal fires and turbines around with us. If these fuel cells are more reusable and more energy-dense than conventional batteries, they win. Even if you have to put a little more energy in per unit out.