![Ximian Ximian](http://a.fsdn.com/sd/topics/ximian_64.png)
Evolution 1.0 Released 425
jdavidb writes: "I pulled up the Ximian redcarpet updater this morning and discovered that Evolution 1.0 is finally available! Now Outlook can start facing some serious competition, although there's still a long way to go. (Evolution does not yet emulate all the Outlook viruses, of course, nor does it integrate with Exchange Server.)" Here's Ximian's full announcement. Update: 12/03 14:59 GMT by T : Nat Friedman of Ximian points out that they're offering a software extension which does allow integration with Exchange 2000. There's good story on the new iteration of Evolution at NewsForge, too.
Creation 1.1 hot on its heels. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Creation 1.1 hot on its heels. (Score:2, Funny)
In other news,... (Score:5, Funny)
Close on the heels of this development, Microsoft announced that its software would be fully in compliance with all laws concerning munitions exports and creationism.
Proprietary Exchange-support to follow (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Proprietary Exchange-support to follow (Score:5, Interesting)
Hey, I'd much rather see Ximian alive than dead and if Evolution works reasonably well on Solaris (haven't gotten around to trying it) I'm sure my wife will be in line to pay $69 to be rid of that godawful web interface to Exchange. But it seems like it might be worth mentioning that Free/Open Source software poster boy Miguel de Icaza is now in the proprietary software business. I can't help noticing that he's making himself scarce and letting Nat answer the phone...
Re:Proprietary Exchange-support to follow (Score:3, Insightful)
Since Evolution has a plugin facility, maybe the 1.0 obsession exists for similar reasons. Now developers can target it with peace of mind.
-Paul Komarek
Exchange... (Score:5, Informative)
A better way of putting this is "does not COMPLETELY integrate with Exchange Server". I'm running it with my company's Exchange servers, via IMAP, LDAP, and SMTP, and the only thing not working is Calendar and shared TODO.
installation (Score:4, Informative)
Otherwise, download the binaries [ximian.com] or source code [ximian.com].
Were is IBM? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Were is IBM? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Were is IBM? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Were is IBM? (Score:5, Informative)
here [lotus.com] and here [winecentric.com]
Re:Were is IBM? (Score:2)
Re:Where is IBM? (Score:2)
However, what should be remembered is that Notes is a database and workflow application. It is not an Emailer or even a PIM.
nice, also good for Palm synching (Score:3, Informative)
I hope it's finaly a stable program now, cause it had lot's of nasty bugs.
Ciryon
IRDA? (Re:nice, also good for Palm synching) (Score:2)
Re:IRDA? (Re:nice, also good for Palm synching) (Score:2, Informative)
Re:IRDA? (Re:nice, also good for Palm synching) (Score:2)
As for IrDA in linux, hrmm, I've never checked that out. I support palms, not on Linux but I wouldn't imagine it'd be too hard.
The way it works in windows is that it just uses the IR port using the serial protocol. Looking at the linux kernel it seems you could do this either with IrCOMM or IrTTY (both?) however I don't have time now to test it.
-- iCEBaLM
Exchange compatability (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Exchange compatability (Score:2)
"Is coming" is meaningless unless it's a synonym for "in beta".
Shame about Exchange (Score:4, Insightful)
I think Ev v1 was roadmapped to integrate with Exchange -- since it doesn't it's not a viable option for corporates who primarily use Windows, but have people using Unix.
But, Exchange is not the be-all and end-all, tight integration with Lotus Domino would be excellent. Lots of big corporations use Notes heavily, and require a Windows client (Domino web services aren't great)
Perhaps an open standard for groupware (discussion, IM, calendar, to-do etc.) could be adopted, and through that Exchange/Notes -> new standard could be employed, aloowing other people to bring integration with whatever groupware server they want to Evolution and other clients?
Could be a very bad idea, but it's just off the top of my head!
Dave
Re:Shame about Exchange (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Shame about Exchange (Score:2)
And, the whole point of Exchange is that I can schedule meetings with someone else, and maintain a server side to-do list etc.
If I were a sysadmin, I'd just tell the minority (i.e. Unix people at my place) to use the Exchange web client.
But it would be nicer just to be able to use Evolution
Re:Shame about Exchange (Score:2)
Re:Shame about Exchange (Score:2)
Re:Shame about Exchange (Score:2)
Isn't this the same Miguel de Icaza who started GNOME because KDE was dependent on the (at the time) proprietary Qt libraries? If we shouldn't use KDE because it's proprietary, why should we use his proprietary software? Because the money goes to him instead of TrollTech?
Gnome growing up? (Score:2, Redundant)
Another twist in the KDE vs. Gnome fight?
Absolutely (Score:2)
I'd be the first to admit that I much prefer KDE/Qt, both from a user and technical viewpoint, but it is excellent to see GNOME and GTK+ applications making great strides too.
There was a point not so long ago where I feared that GTK+ and GNOME had lost their way completely, and that would have been sad - I think the friendly (and sometimes not-so-friendly ;) rivalry and cross-pollination between the systems has been a bigger win than the split of resources has been a loss. Neither system can afford to sit on their laurels for too long or else the other will take up the slack and make them irrelevant.
It does remain to be seen, however, what will happen with GTK+/GNOME 2.0 - it has been a very long time in coming, and in the meantime KDE 2.x has built up a very large (but not unassailable) head of steam. It's very important that the GNOME guys get 2.0 right (not like the 1.0 release - remember that disaster?) if they want to continue to be more than a bit-part player.
I watch the mailing lists with interest... it's a great soap opera :)
Re:Gnome growing up? (Score:2, Insightful)
Let's ditch the in fighting eh, and concentrate on the real issue here.
serious competition for outlook? (Score:3, Insightful)
Much as I love Linux, I don't think it quite has the same prevalence on the desktop.
Re:serious competition for outlook? (Score:2)
Um.. you're missing the point. The goal of creating a usable desktop under Linux (and by the extension of clean porting, other UNIX and UNIX-like systems) is to begin taking over the desktop market the same way Linux has been doing in the server market. There's no reason to run Windows if Linux can do everything that Windows can. Right now, I see the following impediments to that:
1. Office file formats. The DoJ needs to make this call. They need to force MS to release specifications for their file formats as part of the settlement. Though, I will note that conversion by programs like AbiWord and Gnumeric are impressive.
2. Games. Linux needs to be more game friendly, including some standards on what a distribution needs to have and how they need to configure to support them. If running EverQuest: Shadow of Luclin were as easy as putting the CD in the drive, I know about 20 people that would never need to run Windows again
3. PR. Red Hat has been doing a good job, but IBM has only been preaching to the choir. We need good Linux PR.
Re:serious competition for outlook? (Score:2)
My girlfriend says that she saw a Linux commerical from IBM just yesterday on tv.
It was something about the manager running around an empty server room crying, 'They're gone! They're all gone!' (referring to their servers). Then he gets the police down there and whines. Then a tech walks around the corner eating a donut and explains that they only have one server now instead of 100. They bought it from IBM and since it runs Linux it's x times faster/more efficient.
Re:serious competition for outlook? (Score:2)
Granted, Linux is getting better - you can now do simple things like configure X graphically with XF86Setup, rivalling Windows's auto-configure desktop options (though it's still not perfect). But there's still some ways to go.
Re:serious competition for outlook? (Score:2)
Re:serious competition for outlook? (Score:3, Interesting)
So this is kind of a win for Linux the desktop and a loss for Linux the server.
Ximian Connector (Score:3, Troll)
Before the flamage on Ximian begins, let me just say, that the businesses that this product is for have already invested in closed source software, so I think its a great idea to finance Evolution this way.
Great job guys, keep it up!
Re:Ximian Connector (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah... Maybe I'm venting, I've been watching evolution for soooooo long now and all the reports have seemed to imply that they where not interested in exchange because of closed protocol.
Seems to me of course is that they where stopping anyone from "scratching that itch" Opensource style.
Pffft. They can stick it where the sun don't shine. I'm gonna crack out that python and roll my own.
Re:Ximian Connector (Score:5, Interesting)
Isn't Ximian done by Miguel de Icaza?
(Below this is trolling/flamebait/whatever)
Isn't he the guy who started Gnome because he was pissed off at the proprietary nature of KDE/QT? How do we reconcile the two? Oh, because Miguel sees proprietary as okay if Miguel gets the money?
Re:Ximian Connector (Score:3, Insightful)
But after having thought about it, I have no problem with this at all. I think what they are doing is something like what Troll tech or Cygnus has done -- having a complete Free product, but demanding payment when it's used in a non-free way. Troll and Cygnus have this with GPL libraries and providing alternate licenses for payment.
Ximian can't quite do this, unfortunately, since the GPL doesn't restrict any normal use, so it has to make the plugin proprietary. It's a shame that there isn't a way to do it otherwise, and it is dangerous to create precedence of proprietary plugins to GPLed products. But, I feel the basic intention is the same.
At some point, there'll be a Free program that basically matches the functionality of Exchange, and someone (maybe Ximian) will make a Connector for that. If that is proprietary, then we'll have something to complain about.
But until then, if Ximian can find a way to fund themselves, more power to them.
Wake up call ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Until it fully supports Exchange Server, it'll never be a serious competitor to Outlook.
Sorry, but face reality. In the corporate world it either has to be 100% compatible otherwise they just won't use it. Price is generally immaterial.
Plus any company who can afford Exchange Server will no doubt be able to afford licences for Outlook so the whole "but its free" doesn't really offset the fact that its not fully compatible.
However, in spite of all this, lets not knock them for a fine product. Always some work to do, but its definately on the right roads ...
Re:Wake up call ... (Score:2, Insightful)
No, I agree. The whole "Do you want more Outlook viruses in your company intranet?" might well do it, however.
/Janne
Re:Wake up call ... (Score:2)
When you get to an Enterprise, this means lots of servers, again lots of money. Exchange Server is full of some very nice features, but they are very expensive.
Note that use of a connector product isn't much help unless you can offload the data store and directory service too. Each client is another licence, no matter whether or not they are running Outlook or even a Microsoft OS.
Long time user (Score:2)
Cool, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm using Evolution and Mutt as my primary mail clients now (I used to only use Mutt, but I forced myself into Evo so I could help with testing and bug reports). Evo is a very impressive application and I hope people who need such a tool will like it.
However, I don't need or want such a tool. I just want a mail client that logs into my IMAP server, reads and sends mail. That's it. Integrated {contact manager,calendar,task manager,whatever} is cool, but I don't want it. I need something that does a thing, and it does it well, and I hope that other mail(-only) clients will raise to the standard set by Evolution (so far only Mulberry was good enough but it's neither free or open source, and there are a couple things I don't like about it either).
Two Things... (Score:2, Informative)
2) I can't expunge mail at all. It's got something to do with the UID EXPUNGE header while using IMAP and the commercial version of Sendmail running here. Pine can do it. Netscape can do it. So can Outlook. But Evolution can't. I've reported this issue, and unfortunately they didn't address it in the 1.0 release.
Evolution looks nice. But if I can't expunge my mail without loading up pine, then I'll stick with pine.
Bummer.
Again, this isn't groupware (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, we actually have a client side application for Linux and Windows that is working. (Buggy, but works) Its still under heavy development, but it pretty easy to plug into. A more portable version is in the works.
Anyway, so people would stop asking me about it, please, email there development team and ask them to talk to the phpGroupWare guys about creating an XML-RPC or SOAP interface. I think these 2 projects would go hand and hand nicely.
So, for those complaining about the lack of an "exchange server" enviroment, something is there, just not being used.
Re:Again, this isn't groupware (Score:2)
I'd sure be interested in PHPGroupware with XML-RPC or SOAP. It's sooooo easy to create clients and automatable that way. With the Soap , even the dredded VB goons can play (But XML-RPC's much cleaner IMHO)
Re:Again, this isn't groupware (Score:2)
Thank gawd. XML-RPC and SOAP are an utter crock. Why this sudden desire to shoehorn everything into HTTP? Simple, it makes it easy to sneak non-web content in and out through firewalls without any of that tedious mucking about letting the security people know what you're doing. Uh, until firewall developers turn in the arms race, where application layer packet inspection becomes the norm and - oh hey! look at that!! You're right back to square one.
RPC was invented to do remote procedure calls, that's what it's for,
USE IT if you need it.
and `phpGroupware'? What the hell is that? Oh look, it's your userpage. Riiiiight. Seeing as I haven't heard of it, it's not exactly the default corporate standard, is it. In fact it's... what's the word.. IRRELEVANT! Of course they have more important priorities than some toy "groupware" project.
Sorry for the flames, but some people are just asking for it.
Re:Again, this isn't groupware (Score:2)
Most of phpGroupWares storage is down via SQL. Evolution is storing its data via IMAP. Doesn't matter, as long as we both use the same methods, parameters and returns. This way, its possiable for someone to use phpGroupWare for the HTML part, Evolution for the client side, using a Java or C based backened server which handles the actually auth, storage, and what not.
Re:Again, this isn't groupware (Score:2)
If Evolution where to create a modular API for there datastore, it would be very simple to create an option for where it should handle its datastore. (Or call a remote server to handle the job). From there, its also possiable to create a simple cache for those on the road with there laptops. When you get back to your office, you sync with the server.
<soapbox>The point is, that there blocking out access to other projects. Which, IMO, isn't the best way for open source / free software to get anywhere. We develop with a different point of view. We want to work with every other project possiable. We are serious Linux guys who want to see Linux succeed. Using just an IMAP server for the datastore isn't helping matters. </soapbox>
Okie dokey - time to figure out how to migrate! (Score:3, Insightful)
The previous way I figured out how I could do this was to fire up Eudora, as it could open Outlook 2000 email files (not sure about Outlook 2002) - then once you've got your email in Eudora's format (related to mbox format, as I recall - could be wrong), then it was easy to convert to a UNIX way of things. If Evolution doesn't do this automatically, it certainly should. That's one of the big challenges of moving people from MS software to anything else - converting those file formats with ease, and doing so _perfectly_, every time.
Re:Okie dokey - time to figure out how to migrate! (Score:2)
Either that or put on the gloves and write some sort of horrid little script to do it. The Obj Model is pretty gnarled but Python handles it just fine.
Re:Okie dokey - time to figure out how to migrate! (Score:2, Informative)
Connect with Evolution, and copy them back.
I think you can mail all your contacts to yourself, but I didnt get vCard to work with the last beta. Haven't tried the last release.
Exchange connector and GPL (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Exchange connector and GPL (Score:2)
Product 1 : GPL'd program with plugin capability. Source available.
Product 2 : Proprietry plugin for product 1. No source.
The GPL would only prevent you from distributing both together unless they can reasonably be considered an aggregation - which if they have seperate installers they can.
As has already been said by two posters... (Score:5, Informative)
The plugin runs as a component, not a library, so the communication is via a CORBA interface. Since no linking occurs (merely CORBA communication) there is no GPL violation, nor any need to re-license.
Binaries Only (Score:3, Informative)
* evolution
* libgnome-pilot0
* libgtkhtml20
* libnss3
Note, I installed under Debian, so other systems may be slightly different, however, this should be a very good place to start
If you're having problems connecting... (Score:3, Informative)
By the way, I just connected and it seems there is an "Urgent Update" for red-carpet, which brings it up to version 1.1.4-ximian.8. (Sorry, I can't tell you what my previous version was, 'cuz I already upgraded.
Gnome is looking hella good these days. I'm sure Evolution is just as good, but I have no reason to give up Pine anytime soon.
Secure MIME? (Score:2)
Re:Secure MIME? (Score:3, Informative)
MY Exchange integration... (Score:4, Insightful)
The calendar is the only reason I keep Outlook around, really.
My real problem with Evolution is, it looks like Outlook. I cannot use Outlook for Email. I find the interface to be completely horrible, unintuitive and hard to keep organized. The whole "Rules" thing just does not work. With PINE, if you want to save a message to a different mailbox, you hit "S <ENTER>". With Outlook you have to Drag'n'Drop. Imagine that for 200 messages.
Maybe it's because I've been using PINE for god-knows how long, but GUI mail clients just don't work for me.
Re:MY Exchange integration... (Score:2)
I use pine. I use evolution. I like them both
Re:MY Exchange integration... (Score:2)
Re:MY Exchange integration... (Score:2)
Re:MY Exchange integration... (Score:2)
You can always submit a request to the PINE wishlist thing, but I think they all want to keep PINE in a 1-pane thing (:
Re:MY Exchange integration... (Score:2)
I am a long time Pine user, and I used to like Pine. Sometimes, I tried switching to Mutt, but it just didn't cut it for me.
Now, I exclusively use Evolution. Why, you may ask? Because with Evolution, if you want to save a message to a different mailbox, you drag'n'drop. With Pine you have to hit "S <ENTER>". Imagine that for 200 messages.
The reason is, I usually keep my mail very organized, in folders and subfolders, organization, name, if it's a record company, festival, whatever. In Pine, it it REALLY, REALLY hard to move a lots of messages from one folder to one other folder. Basically, you have to sit there and hit "S <ENTER>" 200 times.
In Evolution, I just mark them, drag them, and drop them. Wonderful!
Plus, I get all the goodies with keyboard shortcuts whenever I need them.
Re:MY Exchange integration... (Score:2)
Or you can use the Search-select key, ";", tell it to select by text in the from, to, subject or body of the Email, and then use the (A)pply command. For example, to get all the ones with "Festical" in the Subject line, you'd go ";ssFestivalENTER>"
I guess I should've, as usual, elaborated more on the Outlook thing. The Save Messages isn't the ONLY thing that bothers me -it was just the first thing that came to mind.
Re:Shift and Control (Score:2)
It's still faster in PINE ( ; t f <text> <ENTER> a s <mailbox-name> is the complicated way).
The thing is, with PINE if you're saving individual messages, it'll default to a mailbox name based on the sender's name or alias you defined - no need to 'drag' as it were - which is the real time saver. If you have seevral hundred saved-message boxes, you don't need to start looking for them. mail from "Anonymous@Coward.com" will always, by default, go into the same box when you hit "S <ENTER>" - that's what I'm missing in Outlook which is making my INBOX so cluttered.
Re:MY Exchange integration... (Score:2)
As for rules - I don't like my mail going into many different boxes BEFORE I read it, so that's out. I DID create a whole lot of rules - about 50 - for all the people/programs/groups whom I usually receive mail from, and occasionally I'd go into the Rules Wizard thing, choose "Run Now" and let 'er rip.
Problem - it doesn't work. It'll move SOME of the messages, but not all. I find no rhyme or reason for this. I've asked the local 'experts' and they have no idea.
To this day I've never heard anyone talk about Outlook and say "This is an excellent mail client", or even "This is a good mail client" or heck, "It's decent." Why people put up with it is beyond me.
Re:MY Exchange integration... (Score:2)
I take that back - Outlook is now hung. I don't know if you were serious or if I feel for it (;
Here's the thing though - in PINE, "S <ENTER>" has already saved it to the default mailbox based on the name or nickname of the sender - no need to arrow-key around to the mailbox you want. That's what I'm looking for - I'm not anti-mouse, I'm for "it takes
Oh, I got your keyboard shortcut to work - it defaults to INBOX.
Ximian and Distribution upgrades. (Score:2, Interesting)
Ximian is great, except for one little detail, which prevents me to recommend it. From what I gathered in the monkey talk chat room and elsewhere is that once you install Ximian, you are mostly stuck with the current version of your distribution.
For instance, Ximian and Red Hat 7.1. Red carpet does not allow (at least I have not found any links) to upgrade to Red Hat 7.2. I was told that one must uninstall Ximian Gnome before upgrading to RH 7.2. That is not very user friendly. BTW, how does one uninstall Ximian Gnome? Anybody have the receipe for upgrading a system with Ximian installed? An easy receipe BTW? (Not manually identify and manually remove each rpms for instance).
This system upgrade is the one serious piece missing, which for the moment prevents me to recommend Ximian to others. And by ricochet, I cannot recommend Ximian's Evolution.
Sincerely,
Hans Deragon
Re:Ximian and Distribution upgrades. (Score:2)
Zero problems (except for the red-carpet problem I described in an earlier post).
Re:Ximian and Distribution upgrades. (Score:3, Informative)
Once that's done, proceed with your upgrade as if you never had Ximian Gnome installed on your system...
Re:Ximian and Distribution upgrades. (Score:2)
I've never been a big fan of using the "upgrade" option for any operating system, though... there are usually so many things broken that it's far easier to simply back up the old installation and install from scratch.
Re:upgrading and modems (Score:2)
I disagree. Modem users are not forced to do anything, including using the "upgrade" option of a distribution. They should probably whip out their credit card and pony up the dough to buy a boxed set online. In the U.S., using a modem is saving you $20-$40/month versus a broadband connection anyway, making the $29.95 price of a boxed set of Ximian Gnome, or $59.95 for RedHat 7.2 a trivial price to pay for not having to download hundreds of megabytes of data.
I'm not saying distro makers should abandon the "upgrade" option; I'm saying I have had bad experiences with attempting to "upgrade", versus backing up critical data and installing from scratch. Even Richard Stallman got his start with GNU Emacs selling tapes of Emacs for $150 a pop because people didn't have the pipes to download it!
Back to the topic of this thread, however: Version-specificness (is that a word?) of Ximian is annoying, and I don't envy the modem user unwilling to purchase the boxed set their download of 200-300Mbytes after an upgrade. However, even minor revision numbers of the same distribution often break binary compatability. Is there a better way to do it than Ximian provides?
Offshoots (Score:3, Interesting)
In the same way that the Mozilla code base has been hacked - in a generally reductionist way - to produce the much-improved Galeon and promising K-Meleon, I feel that Evolution could benefit from the same process.
Offers, anyone? Im a little busy right now.....
I'm very concerned for Ximian (Score:5, Insightful)
From the newsforge article, quotes from Nat Friedman, vice president of product development:
"We expect less than we would have expected awhile ago. I think that people understand that businesses have to survive. And the people know that the bloody carcasses of Open Source companies line the horizon right now."
and
"It is proprietary is because they (Ximian) intend to make money from it."
Effectively what I see here is an admission that open source software just isn't getting the bills paid (at least for Ximian, and Eazel RIP), and that they need to sell proprietry software in order to keep afloat.
Unless we see open source companies like ximian generate significantly more revenue from services related to their open source projects, we just aren't gonna have the pleasure of using new products from them for much longer.
Re:I'm very concerned for Ximian (Score:2, Insightful)
Did MS make all the money they have now, back in the mid 80's? No. They have to develop a successful model. Regardless of all the things MS has done wrong, developing a successful business model is one thing they have done very well. Now times are changing and more and more is becoming digital and the legal system can not keep up with it. Models will have to change, people's feelings will be hurt, companies will fail, and when the smoke clears there will be a few champions standing a hill of slain compaines proving what they have to offer is going to be the de facto norm (at least for a while).
RPM Dependencies, KDE, & Pilot-link... (Score:3, Interesting)
Evolution wanted one version of pilot-link, and KDE PIM wanted another...but the packages are mutually exclusive (a rarity, but it happened).
Can this be forced & patched with a simlink?
Personally, I prefer Evolution to KDE PIM, but I'm looking after a few different computers and want to leave the option of what one to choose up to the user. For now, Evolution wins so KDE PIM gets yanked though it would be nice not to have to pick and choose.
Exchange connector - why not charge? (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't see any problem with charging for the Exchange connector. Think of it as encouragement to go open source!
Let's say you're a small company with an Exchange server. You pay for Exchange. You pay for CALs. Then someone installs Evolution and lets some of your people access Exchange without buying into the whole MS-$$-desktop licensing (I'm thinking support people, especially). You're still paying something, though, to make Evolution work with Exchange.
Then someone says, "You know, Evolution would work just as well with Courier/Cyrus/whatever as an IMAP backend, and then we wouldn't have to pay for the Exchange server or the Exchange connectors.
And there's your incentive to go open source.
Also, this puts the onus of supporting Ximian on the corporations, who can afford it. If I want to use Evolution for myself to access my IMAP server, it's free. If I want to use it to get into Exchange at work, I get my boss to spring for a license. I'm happy, he's happy, Ximian stays in business.
Caveat: Exchange still wins in the corporation until Evolution + Open Source server XYZ can provide shared calendaring and scheduling.
Re:Because Outlook is FREE perhaps? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not forgetting - I'm discounting.
Outlook runs on top of Windows, which is not free. It's quite expensive.
Because of the way things are priced, companies usually end up buying Office, and therefore paying even more for Outlook.
If I understood the offer correctly, Microsoft offered to put computers in a lot of schools, where 20% was the hardware cost, and the other 80% of the money was required to put software on them. If you think Outlook is "free," you aren't paying the bills.
Ximian & Evolution (Score:2)
Ximian (on 6.2 500mhz 512MB ATI & 7.2 800mhz 512MB nVidia) is slower than molasses uphill in January. Totally unusable for day to day work. Looks nice slow as shit.
Evolution is also slow and v1.0 has done little to improve that. Further it is a clunky way to do mail.
I am open to suggestions to get it up to speed but my current experience with it is that it is too slow to be used.
<OSX uber alles>
ty, tyvm
Re:Ximian & Evolution (Score:2)
I decided to look again on my 6.2 box and now the desktop just blinks at me and there are files all over the place and it yanks focus away from the terminal making trying to fix it very hard.
Ximian Connector Server or Client Side? (Score:2, Insightful)
Does exchange itself have a plugin architecture? When I used to be responsible for the care and feeding of Outlook clients the saddest thing was watching the parasitic developers that developed Outlook add-ons try to keep up with changes in Outlook. These, mind you, were Microsoft's friends, at least for as long as it takes for Microsoft to implement all the extra features of fax clients and remote access accelerators into Outlook proper. If Ximian intends to keep up with Microsoft on Microsoft's OS and groupware server, I'd reckon they're in for a wild ride.
Perhaps this connector will be a middleware Linux server translating between the Evo clients and the Exchange server. OK, now you're only trying to keep up with Exchange. Just remember to add the cost of a reasonably powered Linux box to the equation. Since this connector is proprietary, be prepared to get stuck with binaries that may not work with subsequent releases of the distro(s) they support. How happy would you be to admin a Redhat 5 box right now?
If this thing is client side, then it is surely an abomination.
"Things in the real world cost real money, son." Blah-blah-blah, this Ximian-Connector business still smells like bait-and-switch.
I hear chants of "It's not done 'til Lotus don't run" echoing in the distance.
Exchange users will pay more... (Score:4, Interesting)
If we wanted to move to Evolution we'd still have to pay the same amount, and then have to pay for the Exchange connector on top of it. The price just went up $70/user to move to Evolution. I can't seem to locate my quote for our Exchange migration here, but a quick check shows a 5 user client access pack for Exchange is about $350...so the price per user just doubled.
I'll pay it... I've been waiting for this since Evolution was first announced. Every LinuxWorld I ask them about Exchange support so it's nice to see it coming soon. But, it will be harder for someone else to do a mass migration.
Something to consider.... I hope it works for them. I see Ximian as a company that needs to stick around for the Linux desktop to really take off.
Re:Exchange users will pay more... (Score:4, Informative)
Regardless right now I think they are targetting developers who have a Linux box for development and then a windows box for their administrative stuff (email, office, etc.) They are enabling the devleoper to get rid of the Windows box. Should this prove successful (and OpenOffice/Staroffice 6 actually works well) I think they will start to target the general business user.
how would they feel if... (Score:2, Insightful)
was analogous to connector?
As a side note, I think they've found a great balance between being open source and still selling code. Most of the mass of the app is free, and that rules.
Evolution rocks! (Score:2)
I use Ximian Gnome and Evolution as my email client exclusively and have been VERY impressed. Sure, it is fluff to get my Slashdot headlines through the app but I love the integration of my PIM and email functionality. It is solid and I have yet to hit many of the bugs other people have seen (maybe RedCarpet is good for something besides taking up desktop space).
The app performs well and looks good. Now, if they could just get Gnome itself to speed up then I would be a happy camper. I am about this far from going back to WindowMaker because Kde and Gnome feel so slow next to Wmaker on a quick Celeron running SuSE 7.2.
Re:NOT FREE SOFTWARE - so what? (Score:2, Interesting)
Why are you asking us to?
Yes, some free software fanatics read Slashdot, but there are also a lot of us who think that free (in both senses) software and non-free can co-exist. In fact, I believe Ximian's strategy is the most sensible for new generation software companies - give away the basic product, sell the add-ons.
haha (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Slack Support (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:What's so special about Mandrake 8.1 (Score:2, Informative)
I just loaded 0.99.2 onto my system the day before yesterday this way and, so far, it works great. Imported all of my old mail (mbox format) without a problem. Only downside I found was having to key in all of my email addresses...
Hope this helps,
C0deMonkey
Re:What's so special about Mandrake 8.1 (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The problem is overintegration (Score:2)
Well, you're definately not an end user. They like staying in one app with one consistent interface to do multiple, related tasks in a common environment. They keep one screen up and get e-mail and meeting requests. E-mail serves as as a communication medium, a way to update status on a project and as a workflow solution to replace dead tree forms and streamline the approval process for purchases. And while I haven't seen it used for anything more useful than "where do we go for lunch?" it is also used to poll people for in-house surveys.
The "small sharp tools" mindset is great if you are an admin or a real power user but, from my experience with end users, it is a hinderance to the rest of the PC using community. Well integrated, monolithic applications like Office, Outlook and MSIE are much easier to work with.
This isn't saying MS does everything right but most people, including more than a few of my fellow IT staff, would cringe at a series of commands like grep | cut -f 2 | sort | uniq to get some info out of a log file. And IMHO, for the most part, "small sharp tools" doesn't translate well into a GUI environment. For most end users, stuff like Evolution is exactly what linux needs to become more widely adopted as a desktop OS.
Therefor the open source movement are just asking for the same problems as we today see in outlook/exchange/ISS -systems...
I disagree. Where MS failed is not looking at the 30 years worth of lessons mature OSes like *nix have learned the hard way. You don't enable tons of options/programs/etc. by default. You don't allow untrusted executables elevated permissions. Sometimes you do sacrifice adding a feature because it isn't a safe thing to do.
From the limited amount of reading I've done in regards to Evolution, it seems they've taken those considerations into account. We'll have to see how it pans out in the real world.
Re:The problem is overintegration (Score:2)
Just be sure to use the '-o' option, or you'll get all your pinboard icons in your window list.
Re:The problem is overintegration (Score:2)
For the end user, Drag and Drop is very much a reality.
For Developers, there are some issues, I admit.
I for one, in my projects test my DnD against releases of Nautilus, Konqeuror, GMC, and Rox. If you can accept from Nautilus and from Konqueror, you will be able to accept from most anywhere. The problem I see from a developer standpoint is that while all the DnDs are now more similarly implemented, there are still enough differences so that implementing DnD interoperability with other apps is not as trivial as it should be. For example, the action type maybe copy from one app and move from another, even in the exact same context. Also, the formats of filenames differs. It could be prefixed with file:, file:/, file://, or nothing at all depening on the app. Could be suffixed with \r,\n, a space, an additional embedded NULL, simple NULL termination, or any combination of the afformentioned terminators. And in encoding the string, some programs pass it as it is, some do URI encoding (space becomes %20, etc) with capital letters for hex letters, some use lower case.
The prefix is pretty easy to catch, correct, and understand, but the inconsistancy with action types, encoding, and the various weird string-termination schemes is really hard for a developer to catch or develop around, and there is no real good reason for so many different ways of ending a string. If only projects could converge on a simple standard for this small issue, it would be great.
Re:Windows port? (Score:2, Interesting)
Some of us don't have 1GHz/256MB computers.
Runs fine on my P166/128MB computer. For that matter, I've also got it running on a P233 with 48MB, but it's sloooow there.
Re:Outlook Competition? (Score:3, Informative)
Not true; you only need the required libraries installed in order to run evolution, you don't need gnome to be running. You can quite happily run it on a machine running KDE, or WindowMaker, twm, etc. You may well lose some of the default integration stuff, but that should be fixed just by changing file type associations to point at your chosen apps.
Even if you install Gnome in its entirity, you'll only blow a hundred megs of disk space or so, and even I can afford that
Cheers,
Tim
Re:Hahahha (Score:2)
Though it's not "half-assed"
Re:are they eating their own dogfood (Score:3, Interesting)