Our New Pearl Harbor 1402
Eerily, the scene invokes disaster movies -- a number of which have actually shown the World Trade Center towers being blown up. Staring across the harbor on this gorgeous day, it takes a few seconds to realize that this isn't the evocation of something new and horrible, but the real thing, our own Pearl Harbor, perhaps even worse, since it struck us closer to home and reminded us all how technology can bring us all nose-to-nose with war in seconds, and there are no real barriers between people willing to use it in evil ways and us. Technology allows us to see the building collapse before the reporters even know what has happened. We have to try and make sense of it ourselves.
The silence is stunning, unprecedented for mid-morning, mid-week anywhere near Manhattan island. Everyone is in shock. Stories, malls, business are closing, their workers crying, distracted, unsure of how to behave.
Technology turns planes into weapons. It tracks aircraft hundreds of miles away. It brings us instant and horrific images. It sends us to e-mail, telephones and cell phones to spread news, facts, rumors and stories.
We are both shocked and oddly prepared. Sci-fi and other forms of popular culture have been preparing us for this kind of Techno-Armageddon for years. Technology can do all sorts of amazing things, but it can't protect us from a handful of determined people. We've never seen anything like it, yet in a strange way we have thought of it for years.
Standing over the harbor, I did something I haven't done in 20 years. I dropped to my knees -- following the lead of a bunch of strangers -- and prayed. I have a bunch of friends in somewhere in that Techno-Armageddon, and just wanted to post these thoughts. If anybody wants to post their own, hopefully here's a good place.
The fine line... (Score:5, Insightful)
If we retaliate, will it spawn more violence?
If we fail to retaliate, do we invite more terrorism?
-digitac
:( (Score:3, Insightful)
I am not a believer in war and I am not a believer in the loss of lives at any cost. I am trying to understand the necessity of this but I can't.
:(
Re:What repercussions (Score:5, Insightful)
1. condemn the action agains WTC and the Pentagon, thus condemning the attack on their country.
2. using their government controlled media to make the people - even those personally neutral to the US - condemn the US, thus making new terrorist killing more people.
I would like to urge the American people to look for other solutions, silent actions. For instance they can through heavy intelligence - which will be conducted - locate and arrest the people responsible. A trial and conviction would be a much more satisfying and peaceful solution.
Two bonuses will also be given by doing it this way:
1. you are sertain the people responsible are caught, not just presumingly dead.
2. the country housing the terrorist would be put in an - for them - unbeneficial position giving the western countries a good way to excess political pressure on them with a small, but larger than normal effect.
People of america: let the your government know what you belive is right!!
(This is a repost from a previous discussion, but it was to important.)
heres something from my friend in new york (Score:3, Insightful)
I can't even begin to explain how I feel. Dana woke me up this
morning telling me to look out my window. I couldn't believe what I
saw. After standing amazed for a while, I saw the world trade center
collapse. Amazing. It's like a disaster movie, I still can't
believe it's happening.
The entire floor is bonding and finding support from each other.
Classes have been cancelled today, and probably tomorrow. There are
buses going to local hospitals with blood donors. Many people have
family that worked at the World Trade Center, and it's hard to get
info.
It's so strange to look out at the skyline... the smoke is starting
to clear a bit, but how is it NY without those buildings?
Thank you all for your support, I will keep trying to call, but the
lines are really busy. "
My Prayers go out to you all (Score:3, Insightful)
I know I can honestly say - that my entire nation is grieving for your loss.
My thoughts and Prayers to you all.
Love,
-Ryan Peterson
Victoria, BC, Canada
Please. (Score:2, Insightful)
This is the act of a bunch of mad people. Even if the percantage of mad persons might be higher in some peoples - it wasn't a people who did this.
Please keep that in mind.
Thanks.
J.
Bad timing (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the rest, I'd think that now would be a good time to not post articles from JonKatz. Quite frankly his comments are usually rimshot, especially now. And it's not his right to comment that I'm complainin about - everyone has that right here. It's his right to be front page material. Slashdot has its ups, the prior 3 articles fitting there, and it has its downs - and this one is way down there. JonKatz (whether you be a person or an alternate account for some other name on the site), please read your articles before you think to put them on the site, and make sure that they both make sense, and have a point rather than are just there - and in some cases just there and insensitive.
War (Score:5, Insightful)
I am going to agree with Jon, here (gasp!). This is how War is played in the twenty-first century. No one has the power to have a conventional war with the US, so it must result in terrorism and guerilla warfare. Its not pretty, but this is how war has evolved.
Your first reaction is to use our strength to fight back, but as the days start to come between present and this tragedy, you'll find out how terrorist cells work.
Their is very little communication between the cells, and the cells are very sparcely located. Result? Very difficult to find everyone in the organization, and very difficult to march an army in to win the war.
We are at the beginning of a difficult war. Please don't get me wrong, I'd like to see each of these cowardly terrorist recieve slow and painful deaths, but we must be smart, rational, and alert to win.
Retaliation (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Possible solution: isolationism (Score:2, Insightful)
Bush tried to do this. By withdrawing the US from all these conferences, he is in-effect adopting an isolationist foreign policy.
As a great superpower and with the greater interconnectivity of the world, the US needs to be more involved. Isolationism might have worked in the past where less than 1 in 5 household owned tv, nonetheless a method of communication.
This isn't the same as Pearl Harbor (Score:5, Insightful)
I hope Bush has a good plan, because I have no idea what I would do in his shoes (except for maybe go back to Washington and make a comforting speech).
F-bacher
wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Wrong. People turn planes into weapons.
Re:Free Parking (Score:4, Insightful)
Besides, we'd be horrified if we turned Afghanistan into a parking lot and then found out that it was the Elbonians all along.
Re:fp - mev (Score:2, Insightful)
Remain rational for months - no witchhunts (Score:5, Insightful)
I fear somthing worse than random beatings of asian-americans by intolerant morons screaming "give us back our pilot" as we experienced when a US spyplane crashed in china. Everyone must make a pledge to not only be rational today, not only be rational for months, but to defend rationalism, wherever you see it diminished. There will be a wave of racism and search for scapegoats like we've never seen. Make sure this enourmous tragedy doesn't get any worse. Do not prejudge any race or person as "terroist", and be sure not to tolerate anyone who does, before they actually have been convicted. Remember, the american way is under attack. Protect it. Don't give in to witch-hunts. The only call for blood we should worry about right now is the one from the red cross!
A new war (Score:2, Insightful)
I think this should be the end to violence. we do not need violence in our world, today has been yet an other proof of that, unfortionaly not the first such day.
This has lead to nothing but suffering, and any retaliation will lead to nothing but suffering and the prospect of further retaliation.
This is a tragedy no one can retaliate our way out of.
I don't know who did this, and frankly i don't care that much, I know what i need to know about the people who did this. I will never be like them.
E
Re:What repercussions (Score:2, Insightful)
- movies
- previous dea events
I can't imagine how to even approach the hammer blow that must fall in retaliation, but I think we're all praying for something broader, bigger & more considered than that which you're suggesting.
My question wrt repercussions is how this will knock onto civil-liberties in the traditional (non-tech) sense.
fwiw, I'm not American, but my thoughts will remain with you all.
Re:rebuilding the towers... (Score:2, Insightful)
With utmost respect to the casualties, the USA is bigger than the lives lost today. As a sign of our strength we must rebuild the towers to show that we cannot be thwarted by terrorists.
A memorial is also due course and I'm sure will come to pass but more than that what we owe those who died today is to find the people responsible and make sure something like this never happens again...
"Technology turns planes into weapons???" (Score:3, Insightful)
How is this *remotely* a case of "technology" turning planes into weapons? It seems more to be fanatics turning planes into weapons.
And fanatics are nothing new.
Re:rebuilding the towers.. - YES. (Score:2, Insightful)
And each tower should have one extra floor added as a memorial to those who died.
And to show that while our enemies may strike, we will always bounce back better.
-- michael
If I could I *would* mod you down... (Score:4, Insightful)
Everyone seemed pretty damn certain Oklahoma City was an outside terrorist toying with our country, we all know how that ended up.
Sheep are people that go with the flow, they are lead one direction or another. Trust me, I've dealt with a few.
So while you may or may not be correct in your assumptions, don't play victim to the moderators when you are making assumptions and speculating as to who may have done this.
The "root of it all" may turn out to be domestic terrorism. And if so, you'd really look bad.
Not Pearl Harbor (Score:2, Insightful)
Even if Bin Laden did do this, whom do we attack? Where do we send the troops?
Pearl Harbor was clear cut. There was an enemy, and we knew were they were. It brought the horror of WWII home to America, and motivated and inspired the greatest wartime mobilization in history.
This attack and the reprecussions will certainly lean towards fear, confusion and sadly, isolation.
This is really a terrifying end to the American Century.
Re:What repercussions (Score:5, Insightful)
So, what should be done? There are black boxes on those planes, if they survived. There must be intelligence reports from the CIA and other national security agencies. Two weeks or more to piece together what exactly happened, who was responsible and how they were able to do this without triggers being tripped everywhere. Then suitable punishment - if it's an act of war, then it must be. This is how America got involved with WW2 is it not.
But to suggest that we just blindly give up our democratic freedom is to give these terrorists precisely what they want. I for one am not willing to do that. I'm all for deadly repercussions, but they need to be well thought out and well executed.
Re:What repercussions (Score:5, Insightful)
You must not have seen the rest of the movie [spoiler alert] - the whole point of it was that if you kick in doors everywhere, if you give up on the rule of law just because some degenerates refuse to live within it, if you allow some nut cases to goad you into creating the very environment of reprisal that they thrive on, you've given your enemy exactly what they want. The moral of The Siege was that even in times of crisis, tarring the innocent with the same brush as the guilty is the wrong thing to do, no matter how inspired towards ass-kicking we may be right now. Of course you leave potential terrorists living in fear, but at the expense of leaving everyone living in fear as well. In the long run, a civil society cannot continue along that path.
I think the jury's still out on the intelligence angle, although the three-letter-agencies will have you believe otherwise. For all we know, what was lacking to prevent this tragedy was not Carnivore interdiction, but just a little more attention on the part of an airline gate agent in Boston or Newark. I would think that any terrorists capable of planning this action would be smart enough to not use any public or semi-public communications medium which might have a chance of being tapped. Don't believe anything you hear on this topic for the next couple of weeks, until we can really begin to get to the bottom of it.
Yes, we need to change some things and prevent the reoccurrence of this kind of attack. But equally importantly we need to not allow terrorism to transform society into a warped vision of the very groups that hate us, just because of our fear and uncertainty. Democracy can triumph over terror, if only its own citizens give it the chance.
Madness (Score:2, Insightful)
As for the US's retaliation, I think it should be swift and decisive. I think there should be a battery of cruise missles launched at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world.
And if you upstairs neighbors happen to be the subject of one of those rumors, too bad. You'll just be another drug^H^H^H^H... er I mean terrorist related related death.
Re:What repercussions (Score:2, Insightful)
One question (not trolling) I wonder what knowledge the US powers had on a possible strike this week? Granted, they wouldn't be able to do much about someone on a plane with a death wish, but I heard an interview with someone at Janes who suspected a hit this week.... maybe its just hearsay?
Carnivore isn't anything to get worried about, in fact i've heard its pretty useless. Try getting hold of the summer copy of 2600 magazine (http://www.2600.com) because there is a good article on the system there, showing it would be next to useless to try to gain intelligence on terrorist acts. For example, unless a court order is granted they can only snoop To: and From: info. You might want to check out http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/foia_docume
Aside, as my comments probably got buried in the other stories, I totally agree with people trying to calm down the reactionist (although understandable) mood around here. Attacking all known terrorist locations will kill many more innocent people, prehaps for nothing. Then you are no better than the terrorists, only with a false badge of legitimacy pinned to your chests.
As I said before though, I completely understand the feelings here. Its purely awful and evil. Just don't become hypocrites. And the people that are going around saying "bash the dot headers" etc make me SICK.
Thanks for your time. I hope you don't consider me trolling.
Re:What repercussions (Score:2, Insightful)
That's like saying "destroy all Christian holy sites" after what Tim McVeigh did. Based on your comment you are exactly the kind of person all terrorists are: a hothead with a tendency towards violent knee-jerk reactions and intolerance towards cultures, habits and religions you don't understand.
Islam can be used to justify this horrific act of terrorism just as well as Christianity can be used to justify the "religious" violence in the Northern Ireland (a large part of which is being funded by Irish Americans, by the way).
You've never been outside the U.S.A., have you?
Re:rebuilding the towers... (Score:2, Insightful)
Power. The power of our country, and it's ability to create superior technology.
Remembrance. The new building should pay respects to those that died in this horrible incident.
Perspective. We should not dwell on this for the rest of our lives...
Peace. It needs to be a symbol of peace.
Not sure how to get all that into a single building, but I am sure that it can be done.
"As ye sow, so shall ye reap" (Score:1, Insightful)
As the moralists begin to thunder against terrorism and mourn for the victims, perhaps some thoughts should be spared for some other victims--the victims of Americanism. This country was founded on the extermination and enslavement of millions, and has grown fat off the continuing exploitation and repression of the world's poor. It is not so strange that this should happen, rather that things like this do not happen more often.
There is a kind of rough justice that New York's financial district and the Pentagon should be targets, for they contribute to so much misery in this world. Wall Street, the center of global capitalism, is where traders skim the profits off the poverty of so much of the world. Rhetorical exaggeration? Ask youselves why so many countries where hunger is common grow and export cash crops in order to pay their debts to U.S. banks, and see whether the word "loanshark" comes to mind. Ask yourselves why the countries with the most debt and the most sweatshops are invariably those that adhere to the paternalistic advice of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, and are likely to have weapons and military training supplied by the Pentagon.
The Pentagon, the heavily-armed attack dog which blithely calls its civilian victims "collateral damage", has never hesitated to massacre civilian populations, usually from a distance and at little risk to its own. You cannot bomb and starve people, whether in Yugoslavia or Iraq, and expect all to be forgiven and forgotten. You cannot arm and train the death squads and dictators from Chile to Indonesia, Peru to El Salvador, Viet Nam to the Congo and expect no repercussions. Somewhere, somehow, some of the many victims of America's imperial arrogance have just found a way to fight back.
Today is September 11th, a day that will be remembered. But September 11th has a significance most Americans aren't aware of. September 11, 1973 was the day the Chilean military overthrew the democratically elected president, Salvador Allende. Thousands were killed and tortured by the military in the aftermath of the coup, and Chile lived under a brutal dictatorship for the next 16 years. Why is this relevant? Because the military coup was instigated and supported by the U.S. C.I.A, under the leadership of then-president Nixon and his henchman Kissinger. Who in America will remember for those victims of state terrorism, in which America bears at least partial responsibility?
Already the local talk radio is taking calls from people who are saying we should "wipe out" the Palestinians. The Palestinians have been robbed of most of their land, they've seen many of their homes and farms destroyed, and their children killed. All of this with the assistance of billions of U.S. dollars and military technology. No doubt many of them feel they have no future. When you help rob someone of their future, what do you expect? That they'd feel bad when their oppressors' best friend gets targetted?
For the victims of these bombings and their families, this must seem like inexplicable insanity. Yet there is a terrible logic here, the logic of the Old Testament: "As ye sow, so shall ye reap". In the calls for veangeance and soul-searching to come, perhaps some Americans will think about their country's global role and struggle for a fundamental change in direction.
This is not meant to justify or condone the terrorist attacks in New York and D.C. in any way. Rather, it is meant to question why there is so little outrage for the victims of the U.S. sanctioned terrorism that goes on every day.
by an American who may have lost a close friend in the WTC bombing
Re:If I could I *would* mod you down... (Score:5, Insightful)
The "root of it all" may turn out to be domestic terrorism. And if so, you'd really look bad.
Thank you. This is the first objective reply I've gotten (of course, I've posted rather irrationally for the past few hours, so I can understand some of the angry words). You make a very good point that I hadn't thought of.
Your reply is exactly why I read/post to slashdot in the first place. I'd be the first to admit I don't have everything figured out, so I deliberately post my flaming, raw, unrationalized opinions to
It's all a social experiment: I'd rather be modded as a troll on
Re:What repercussions (Score:5, Insightful)
You state in your email your shock at the loss of life, and the loss of freedom.
Yet your way to solve this is to take more human lives (launch missles at every one suspected), and take away the freedom of everyone suspected.
In no way can i rime these two arguments. Yes this is the worst thing i have seen on CNN
I accept that you feel the guilty need to be delt with, however shooting the world @ random won't make the situation any better. You would betray the very thing you fight for. Justice and Freedom.
Also, don't forget before you claim the world will not be the same, that palastinians, people in ireland, south afrika, etc have suffered the same faith. Next time they are in the news, think back of this moment. This might be a unique opertunity to cherish freedom, not only for americans, but for humans.
Re:rebuilding the towers... (Score:3, Insightful)
We could level the site and put up a memorial and a new park, but I feel that the best memorial will be a bigger Trade Center Complex, with two bigger towers, which will become a new symbol of American resiliance.
I grew up in New York City, and I know a bit about the spirit of the city. Its people are all very resiliant, and will show the world that they can handle this tragedy. They will take time to mourn, of course, but after, they will have to go on with their lives. Their lives will be changed, for sure, but they will go on, because they can't live any other way.
What if there is nobody to retalliate against? (Score:4, Insightful)
In the early aftermath of the heinous attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, there is much speculation that this attack had to be the work of a significant, organized organization. Although we desire to believe that this attack required a large group, one that we could potentially retaliate against, an attack of this magnitude requires only a few individuals and a very small amount of preparation.
It only takes a couple of armed individuals to commandeer a plane in the air once they get a weapon aboard, while a few minutes thought outside an airport checkpoint will reveal a half dozen methods a terrorist could use. Once the terrorists gain control over the plane, it is again straightforward for the terrorists to conduct a controlled crash: readily available flight simulation programs are very powerful, capable of providing the necessary training for a targeted crash.
Thus, a dozen reasonably intelligent zealots, willing to die for their cause, could easily prepare, train, plan, and execute an attack on this scale in under a week. What will we do if it turns out that it was a small group? What will we do if there is nobody left to blame?
Re:rebuilding the towers... (Score:4, Insightful)
These days office space is in a glut. Who is going to fill those enormous towers (esp. given the state of our current economy, which isn't going to be improving any time soon in light of today's events)?
More to the point, who is going to *want* to work in those buildings after what happened today?
I agree that it's not necessarily a bad idea, especially as a way of bringing the country together, but these are one of a few realities that such a project would have to face.
As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?
Doing what I can to help (Score:3, Insightful)
First off, my heartfelt condolences to those who have lost family, friends, and loved ones in this tragedy.
I met with a number of friends at lunch. Some had loved ones who they had been unable to reach to see if they were okay.
I felt powerless over what had happened, and indeed there is nothing anyone can do to change what has already happened. But, I did what I could, today. I offered a shoulder to cry on. I encouraged them to have hope, to know that not knowing does not mean the worst. That there is already a tremendous pulling together of support. Calls for blood donations, people reaching out to friends they hadn't talked with for a long while, and countless other acts across the country and the world where people offer support to one another.
This tragedy can become a rallying point, an opportunity to show the world what we are made of here in the US of A. The Oklahoma bombing, the flooding of the Mississippi River, hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes. We are a people that has a long history of reaching out to help.
A proverb I've liked: "If I cannot do great things, then I will do small things in great ways." (Don't know who wrote it, sorry.) Each person who lends a hand, a shoulder, a caring heart does something tangible. And all of those seemingly small acts, when taken together, can show the world, and ourselves, that we are greater, MUCH greater, than these attacks.
Good idea, but this is not Utopia (Score:1, Insightful)
Unfortuantly the people that conduct themselves in this manner live in a distopia, often impoverished and spiteful.
You cannot reason with people on civilized and rationalized terms, when they themselves are foriegn to these concepts.
They understand the language of violence, and under these terms have set the pace. If we do not respond in kind we risk further attacks.
It is a vicious cycle, and I truly wish this was not the case, but this is the reality. Violence will rule this world for the remainder of your lifetime... get used to it.
Not Pearl Harbor (Score:2, Insightful)
I hear a lot of -really- stupid stuff flying from a lot of peoples mouths today... most of it is due to the ability to speak before thinking - which i think is what most people do... people stick blame everywhere at once and say "BLOW EVERYTHING UP" - but then again... don't people stop to think and say "hey... they just killed 13259710295 of our people, if we do the same to some other random country that may or may not be the one who attacked us (IF another country attacked us) what will it accomplish? what we have to do is investigate and figure out what the hell really happened...
it's a sad day, but we'll just have to cope, clean up, life goes on, don't dwell on the distant past and try to reflect it to now. pearl harbor has nothing to do with this, and i really hate that sentiment.
Re:rebuilding the towers... (Score:2, Insightful)
If ground control can do it, so can I. Or any other determined psycho. Sure it might be _very_ difficult, but everyone knows that most (all?) security can be broken. The first guy to figure it out holds onto it until he can get enough remote control pilots to slam a plane into every building in the nation. It's a good idea, but a lot of precations have to be taken to ensure that this improves everyone's safety, not makes it worse.
Re:What repercussions (Score:2, Insightful)
Foreign Policy 2.0 (Score:5, Insightful)
It is universally accepted that today's events are tragic. Thousands of innocent people were killed and the suffering will encircle their family, friends, and others. Our nation is living in fear.
If this turns out to be the work of a Palestinian terrorist organization (and not a decorated U.S. military veteran), most Americans will rally for retaliation with the full support of our allies. This is also tragic, for we smite Jesus of Nazareth, Ghandi, and all other prophets who have tried to save us from our hatred and anger. At the same time, we commit an act that--in their hearts--must be avenged. The cycle of violence will continue, destroying more innocent lives.
If we can all learn a lesson today, I hope it is this: that all "leaders" assume responsibility for their actions and stop this millenia-long practice of littering the ground with the bodies of their followers. The time has come to upgrade our foreign policy. When political leaders disagree, let them face off in pistol duels.
Re:Time to wake up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure nothing can justify this type of terrorism, but your GI-Joe-inspired concepts of American military superiority winning any battle and surpressing any enemy are so childish I can't help but chuckle.
Time and time again throughout history oppressive empires have been toppled by the downtrodden masses. You spoiled brats think that the threat of unrelenting military armageddon would be enough to scare anyone into submission. You also think that our role as the major world power is unsurmountable because we have such enormous resources at are disposal.
You have to step outside of your capitalism-brainwashed, MTV-soaked minds and realize that the people who are propagating this kind of terrorism FEAR NOTHING because they do not value the world order. The only way to stomp out these terrorists would be mass genocide. If you are advocating mass genocide then you REALLY need to check your righteous self, because America is anything but a model of ethical international relations.
I repeat myself now, because this is the absolute truth. If America continues it's greedy self-serving ways, this is only the beginning of the tragedy that will strike us. It's time to embrace our success as a way to benefit the world.
Re:New perl harbour, or? (Score:3, Insightful)
I suggest you put up a memorial, reading:
"Let all souls here rest in peace, for we shall not repeat the evil."
The text is taken from the diary of Michihiko Hachiya, written on the 8th of August 1945, when you "saved my country" in Hiroshima.
Re:rebuilding the towers... .001 sales tax! (Score:2, Insightful)
I'd jump on a tax for the 'finger towers' any day!
Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War! (Score:4, Insightful)
You may not have experienced war since WW II, but certainly a number of other countries have experienced war, either directly with U.S. troops or with U.S.-trained and -funded troops. A partial list:
Well, at least most of Africa and Europe have remained free of the grip of American soldiery.
This is why the terrorists engage in these kinds of activities. They do not feel they have anything to lose. Sadly, they may be right: the United States' grasp of realpolitik is incredibly weak.
Re:What repercussions (Score:2, Insightful)
When the US finds who did this, a graphic and public example needs to be set for all those who would choose to follow .
So, as an American to you I will say it's alot easier to preach peace when it's not your country.
Technology???? (Score:2, Insightful)
How? How is "technology" responsible for this? I noticed this 'feature' was from the "Techno-Armageddon dept." I think Jon Katz is a little psycho with his attempts to integrate technology into every significant event that occurs.
There was an interview on (I think) CNN with a "security expert" who stated that this was a remarkably low-tech attack ("low-tech, high concept" were his exact words). The US spends billions on high technology solutions to fend off enemies (star wars, better metal detectors, etc), but in this case it was indeed a low-tech attack. A plane filled with fuel manually piloted into a huge iconic building. It wasn't even a foreign country's plane! It was a domestic plane that was hijacked with an apparently undetectable weapon. It could have been a plastic knife for god's sake; how much more low tech can you get? While I'll concede that a 767 itself is indeed a marvel of high technology, planes capable of destruction like this have been around since at least World War 2. A B-52 could have caused similar damage. As numerous others have doubtless mentioned, this is evidence that the US has focused far too much on high-tech solutions.
This is likely the worst attack to occur on American soil; an act of terrorism perpetrated by (IMNSHO) supremely evil people. It will probably be regarded as the worst tragedy in our history. To try and blame this simply on "technology" belittles the event.
Re:rebuilding the towers... (Score:2, Insightful)
In a way, he's right (Score:2, Insightful)
Careful about targeting one source... (Score:5, Insightful)
Our professor is an Egyptian and an active Muslim. She was especially worried because everyone here in America associates BinLaden with the Islamic faith. It's as far from the truth as possible. BinLaden calls himself a "Fundamentalist Muslim," but has been denounced by Muslims throughout the world. She made us understand (and everyone should understand this before they point fingers) is that Palestineans / Arabs / Egyptians / whatever race or religion of people in the Middle East does not support the terrorist view of "If you kill Americans, you get into the life beyond." She was praying that the people behind the attack wern't Muslims, because the traditional Muslim faiths don't condone killing others. Unfortunately for her and us, though, our only image of the Muslim faith is BinLaden carrying out his attacks in the name of religion. It puts such a heavy burden on her here in the United States, since no one understands the fundamentals of the Muslim faith.
We should not go out on a witch hunt, because we are not sure yet who did it. But even more, people need to understand that these are INDIVIDUALS. They are INDIVIDUAL ACTS. They DO NOT represent any race of people, any religion of people, or any country of people.
I just hope people can find a way to understand.
This has *nothing* to do with religion (Score:5, Insightful)
Suicide is a violation of Islamic law as defined by the Koran. These terrorists are not representative of Islam. As Tom Clancy put it on CNN just now -- they *are* fools.
Do you realize what kind of hell on Earth you are advocating when you ignorantly lump people into illogical categories? Such limited "thinking" is the root of sectarian violence around the world, people being murdered simply because they are atached to an artificial label: Protestant or Catholic, Jew or Arab, Black or White.
Those of you who declare "jihad" on all of Islam -- you are no better than the animals who murdered the innocent this morning. Go crawl back in your hole, while the rest of us look for light at the end of the tunnel...
Re:Good idea, but this is not Utopia (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not going to call for no retaliation. I am, however going to call for no random retaliation. Retaliation against civilian targets only vaguely associated with (the) terrorists will simply create more people, more desparate and more angry. It plays into the hands of the terrorist by creating even more people who are angry and/or desperate enough to work on suicide or other terrorist attacks.
Consider, for a moment, the kind of desperation it would take for someone to be a suicide attacker. Even in extreme situations, it is the rare person who would do something like this. It requires the willful creation of a desperate situation within a large population over a period of time.
Someone touched on this in an earlier post. What Israel has been doing to the Palestinian people in response to the Intifada has created a breeding ground for terrorists -- especially suicidal terrorists.
Retaliation should be strong and as swift as possible -- but against terrorists only. We are now experiencing, firsthand, the result of anger being directed against innocent civilian targets. If we take on the tactics of our attackers all we will do is feed the cycle of violence and hatred -- leading only to more death and destruction.
Break the circle. Stop violence against (innocent) civilians.
Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War! (Score:3, Insightful)
We DID pursue the war in full in Japan, the country that institutionalized suicide attacks, and we won - completely, and at great cost. We invaded, and we occupied, and we rebuilt things from the ground up. We didn't try to punish them for all the horrendous things they had done up until that point, but instead helped them create a peaceful and prosperous nation instead. The Japanese and these terrorists may not have thought they had anything left to lose, but they're wrong. They can lose their reason and will to fight.
cryptochrome
Give me a break, Jon (Score:2, Insightful)
And, in case you missed the news: no technology was used in this attack.
Yup. That's right. It wasn't cyberterrorists, or geek crackers, or script kiddies. They didn't use sophisticated technology.
They
Just
Flew
Planes
Into
Buildings
How low tech do you need to be? This is WWII tactics!
Now, would you stop posting and let someone who knows what he's talking about post? Someone with real experience? I don't mean me, I mean anyone but you.
On this day I don't need your carp, Jon.
Children (Score:4, Insightful)
>with kids whose parents aren't coming home.
My god.
I didn't realize the tragedy of this all until I read this. I was feeling
quite sorry for all the dead, but the real tragedy is for the still living.
Just imagine you're a 5-10 old kid. Imagine what would mean to you. It
hurts just to try.
Who's the one to tell these kids why their parents are late today?
I think I just couldn't.
--
Xouba,
who just yesterday thought that life was not so bad.
Compare to Pearl Harbor (Score:1, Insightful)
Violence leads to more violence (Score:2, Insightful)
You know what that remind me of?
When I was in kindergarden, everytime there was a fight, we'd come up to the teacher, crying "He started!". That never helped us back then, and it won't help anybody, a man or a country, now.
Violence triggers more violence. We can trace the ME conflict back to the 19-th century, if we'd like to, when the first Zionists came to Israel.
Ech'ad Ha'am, one of the famous Zionist scholars, wrote in "Truth from Israel", published in 1891 (All the mistakes in the translation are mine:) "[The Jewish residents] are walking with the Arabs in hostility and cruelty, tresspassing their property, beating them with violence and without need, and even praising such deeds".
Trying to kill each other won't solve the situation. It never did, and it never will. I live in the Middle East. To be precise, I live in Jerusalem. My dad was shot by an Egyptian soldier, and died from his wounds.
So I'm having a damn good seat in the middle of the conflict, and believe me, I don't care who started it. Justice won't do any good, and won't bring anybody back from the dead. We can only try and improve our future.
I lost a father, and that hurts. I don't want nobody else to lose a father as well, and I don't care wether he's "evil" or not, wether he got "god" by his side or not, wether he lives west or east of the border... Nobody.
This attack was retaliation (Score:2, Insightful)
I can very well imagine that the attack today was carried out in retaliation for the US bombing someones home, killing their families, starving their children through sanctions, etc...
And with those criteria, the list of suspects is not short.
We've been bombing Iraq on a monthly basis since the last Bush was president - so often, in fact, that it no longer makes the news over here. But, on the receiving end, I'm sure that it does. Can we really imagine what it would be like to feel the way we do right now EVERY SINGLE DAY?
And no, I'm not condoning this attack - I'm merely pointing out that it's no more or less wrong than our attacks on the populations of other countries.
But we only attack military targets!
Not the case - we attack targets of strategic value, including factories, ports, etc... Where people work. And when we miss, we hit houses, schools, churches, etc.
As we reap, so shall we sow.
Sigh.
Re:What repercussions (Score:3, Insightful)
That works against a group with a profit motive. That's not what's at work here. You do that with terrorists and you only feed their delusions. You nail the responsible parties with as little collateral damage as possible and you stand a decent chance of winning the war for the mindset of people (not necessarily governments or special interest groups). If that doesn't happen you spawn a new generation that looks upon the loss of 50k lives as "justifiable".
We want swift retribution because it'll make us feel better..... momentarily.
Question: would you be willing to trade your personal privacy for maybe some further measure of security from terrorists? Would you grant the people running Carnivore greater rights into your life in order to perhaps prevent more events like this?
Carnivore can't sniff out an organization whose plans are made on the backside of the desert. I doubt they use the internet for anything more than propaganda. They don't plot attacks over cell phones. They're smart.
The news agencies keep talking about how this had to be a sophisticated, well funded attack. No. It was well planned, but very low tech. No foreign investments in military equipment were needed. The coordination was set by the Airline schedules (probably why they didn't fly America West), not the atomic clock synchronized on their IBM built Linux watches.... Well funded? How much do airline tickets go for these days? Did they have to build bombs? No, Take off on a transcontinental passenger flight that departs near your target and you have more fuel than Timothy McVeigh would know what to do with. Very low tech. Very inexpensive (in terms of return on investment). Very well thought out.
When we begin to live in fear, we have betrayed the principles of our very country.
On this we agree.
But what is obvious to me is that we must rise above this, we must not live in fear....
I agree. That means that we don't sink to their level to the point that innocent lives in the scores of thousands are willingly sacrificed to make our point. That's not "rising above" this. We can't be willing to stoop to their level in terms of losing our humanity. If we do, we are worse than they are because we aren't as smart. This was planned with patience. Targets were chosen because of the massive losses in terms of human life, but also because they knew the symbolic and actual damages that would be done to our country.
The trade center was a seat of commerce, literally and figuratively. They struck us in the pocketbook, literally and figuratively because we put so much stock in our economic prowess.
The airlines (most people just see this as a tool, but I think it was a target as well) offered us a sense of connectedness that email and telephones can't give. We felt safe about our domestic flights and security was minimal when compared to international flights. This too was a strike at commerce since much of air travel is business related. Now all the overnight package delivery services are grounded as well. They struck us there because we felt safe.
The pentagon is the seat of our military power. They struck us there because we take great pride in our military strength (not necessarily the same as our role as international policemen).
We pride ourselves on being the strongest economically and militarily and believe that we are somehow safely insulated from this very sort of thing, and that is precisely where we were hit. Literally and figuratively.
Parallels in history (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm reminded of the Roman Empire... one of the factors that led to the fall of that Empire was the constant raids by the Visigoths; not so much a nation as a nomadic people. They certainly weren't a match for the Empire in formal battle, but they led a fairly consistent "hit and run" campaign that greatly weakened the Romans and demoralized them.
Likewise, it's hard to pin down modern terrorists as a nation, but they execute suicide attacks whose primary purpose is to wear down and demoralize. They know they can't win a head-on battle with most governments, but they can wreak havoc if they can continue to hit us on our own soil on a regular basis.
I always wondered why they didn't... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Time to wake up... (Score:1, Insightful)
Nevertheless, I'm pleased to see that you hold your own intellectual superiority in such high esteem that you can blow off the deaths of your countrymen with such verve. And judging from your high comment score, I suppose I can say the same for many other Slashdot patrons. Spolied brats indeed! Would their deaths have evoked more pathos if they were as "enlightened" as you?
You can go on about the faults of American foreign policy all you wish, but do you really believe that by granting "respect" and "homage" to impoverished backwater shithole countries, we can avoid such future incidents? If so, then I suggest you begin taking your medication again! Do you think people such as these, who engage in such suicidal barbarism, have any respect for such overtures?
Our only solution is to strike back against those who would work to destroy our nation. The kind of strategy you suggest has never been successful. Placating aggressors such as these only postpones the inevitable conflict in their favor. We must annhilate those who are responsible for these crimes, and cultivate a fearful respect that will make even madmen reconsider striking against our citizens.
BTW, I find it intriguing that you immediately jump to the conclusion that in order to take such actions, we must commit wholeslae genocide. You seem to paint your terrorists with a wide brush, and the subtext of such a statement smacks of racism and bigotry. You seem to have forgotten, despite your sensitivity towards the world's suffering, that not every person of a particular racial or religious group is a terrorist.
Re:Time to wake up... (Score:1, Insightful)
For the Slashdot doves: if you accept this evil -- an unprecedented and sudden murder of over 10,000 civilians -- where do you draw the line? Is there a greater evil that you find acceptable as a reason for self-protection and war?
Make no mistake. This terrorist attack will galvanize the American people, just as it did in 1941, just as it did in 1863, just as it did in 1776. It's in our blood. We kill the enemy for the same reason we always have: one, because he's threatened us somehow; two, because it's a hell of a lot of fun to kill him. Are you the enemy?
Re:BIN_LADEN, YOU MISSED... (Score:1, Insightful)
Its self-righteous crap like that makes so many people hate America.
Re:BIN_LADEN, YOU MISSED... (Score:1, Insightful)
and now you praise the friggen statue they gave you so much? Shut the fuck up, you arrogant prick
Pearl Harbor? I wish it was that easy. (Score:5, Insightful)
At least the aftermath of Pearl Harbor was easy to grasp and propose solutions for: Japanese national forces attacked American national assets, so the US government sent forces to pound Japan into submission. But we do not have a common enemy to unify against and revile. We do not have an island or a country at which to direct our anger and our weapons.
We weren't attacked by a known enemy. It is more like being mugged and beaten in broad daylight, and not even getting a look at the bastard. And to top it, everyone around you acts as though they didn't see a thing. And this is on a previoiusly unimaginable scale.
So what do we do? Years of painstaking detective work resulting in a trial in the Hague? Anticlimactic and unsatisfying. Nuke the entire Middle East into one big godforsaken glass parking lot? Very satisfying. And it would probably solve the question of Jerusalem by making it uninhabitable for tens of thousands of years. But its a stupid, knee-jerk idea. Don't forget all the cries of "Islamic fundamentalist terrorism" immediately after OKC. Invasion and occupation? Volleys of cruise missles? Impractical and expensive, not to mention where and against who?
Right now it would be a relief to go down to the recruiting office and say "I wanna go kill me some fuckin' (insert demographic), sir" But all I could do was drop off a pint at the bloodbank and stare at Peter Jennings and the Talking Head Band all day.
btw, i do not mean to criticize Jon Katz, just the comparison to Pearl Harbor. He's not the first or only one to mention it - he just gave me an opening to bring it up. I sincerely hope he (and all concerned) finds his people alive and well.
Re:What rank tripe (Score:3, Insightful)
Warning: you are way out of your league. I have studied the transcripts from Nurmeburg and the trial details at great length. Nuremburg was not a criminal trial - it was a series of contrived declarations that were designed to lend legitimacy to what were essentially preordained executions. There was never any intention of granting the presumption of innocence to the Nuremburg defedents, and the case was not tried within a framework where this dispensation was granting as a precursor.
But thanks for tossing around more of the pseudo-intellectual bullshit that amounts to a piss-poor devil's advocate argument.
WTC Not Real Target (Score:2, Insightful)
These people are horrified that others live this way, and that the Finger of Retribution does not strike down from the clouds above to wipe away the stain. They are horrified because the continued refusal of the divinity to take action casts their entire, restrictive, fundamentalist creed into question. So they have decided to be the agent of the divinity; to rain down fire from above, and to scourge the wrongdoers personally.
They are not attacking the people, the buildings, or the government of the day. Their attack is really targeted against the way of life; the basic freedoms that their own followers secretly covet; the truth that makes a mockery of the lies that they preach.
When I read about requiring travel-documents for inter-state movement, I feel concern. When I hear about demanding ID from anyone who boards a subway train, I feel dismay. When I see people suggesting we grant carte blanche to the FBI's "Carnivore" and similar programmes, I feel fear. Because if these things happen, then the fundamental freedoms that we enjoy will have been eroded. Then the attack will have succeeded. And the bastards will have won.
Re:What repercussions (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, don't use the word "Islamic" to describe these people, even if you tack "Fundamentalist" to it. It's a slander to one of the greatest, most tolerant, and most peaceful religions on the planet.
Pigs like the ones who committed this atrocity do nothing but pervert and slander Islam.
The Truth Comes Home (Score:2, Insightful)
Now, the pain of the rest of the world has come to us, and there's a great outcry. All around the world, ordinary, innocent people are living everyday with events such as we have just experienced -- events frequently paid for with American money and carried out with American weapons. Are we somehow so special, that we should inflict and allow to be inflicted, so much misery and death on the rest of the world, and bear none of our own?
Perhaps, some dead men have answered that question already.
mp
Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech (Score:2, Insightful)
You are the United States Of America as you say, but it is scary how many people in your country think you are more important than the rest of the world put together. (yes I HAVE visited the US - for many months at a time, not just visiting Disneyworld either ! I have many friends over there - have you ever been out of the US ? Do you even know where Afghanistan is ?). Have you any idea how much resentment there is against the way the US behaves in the world, even in the free-world (Europe etc) ?
NOTHING excuses this outrage, but random revenge attacks would be exactly the same. Violence is violence is violence is violence. killing is killing is killing is killing. Every human being is someones child or parent or friend etc.
What makes the US so above anyone else that it should expect to be allowed to retaliate against anything it suspects might be involved.
I hope your government shows some vision and waits until it has a good idea who did this, then targets individuals.
If you contribute to the cycle of hatred, you are as culpable as anyone else.
(still I guess it is difficult to explain this to a country with 200 yr out of date gun laws - yes I mean the US - which severely restricts your liberty)
Once again - I CONDEM THIS OUTRAGE AND THOSE WHO DID IT - BE CLEAR ON THAT.
Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech (Score:2, Insightful)
In other words, your country has the biggest penis, so it's far worse for anyone to fuck with the U.S. than any other country. And of course, it's not really significant when the little podunk states get hurt. You think we should just bomb them all to be sure there's no way whoever attacked us will go unpunished.
This kind of attitude is the main reason I'm ashamed to be an American.
"Just find whoever did this and kill them." -- said very casually by a civilian interviewed on television.
... for all those who ask for retaliation ... (Score:1, Insightful)
... I don't like some of the reactions to this catastrophy, brought to us through the media, but I understand them, at least some of them