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Galeon At A Glance 148

Posted by Hemos
from the looking-under-the-hood dept.
gatha wrote to us about Galeon, how it actually works and some of its feature set. I've been playing with Galeon now and again - but I've still found that except for a small issue with handling preformatted text, Konqueror has taken over as my web browser of choice.
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Galeon At A Glance

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  • by Anonymous Coward
    I feel sorry for the KDE developers. These trolls make them look really bad.

    Why someone would want to write a browser just so it "intigrates" better with thier preferred desktop I don't get. If it was a trivial task (Like a clock or something) then I would understand wanting to do it *just* to do it. But Gnome has lost the desktop war. Will they continue to try to keep up with KDE or start working with KDE to make Linux great?
    Um, this is so obvious I just have to point it out. It's KDE who made khtml, a browser component to integrate with KDE. Galeon is just a shell around Mozilla.

    (Posting anonymously because you're not worthy of my karma.)

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 26, 2001 @03:08AM (#127768)
    > My only wish: that there was a Windows port of Galeon

    Maybe you're looking for K-Meleon [kmeleon.org], which call itself "the Windows answer to galeon"?

  • To which section? I tried adding it to the [HTML] section just now but that doesn't seem to change things. Thanks, that sounds good though.

    ---
  • by Micah (278) on Tuesday June 26, 2001 @09:01AM (#127770) Homepage Journal
    I don't understand why people keep saying that the other browsers on Linux are still not "quite ready to take over for Netscape 4.77".

    I dumped NS4.7 as my primary browser months ago, and mainly use a combination of Mozilla and Konqueror. I can get to anything on the Web I want. Moz and Konq are both great, and have a somewhat different set of bugs. If a site is unusable on one I go to the other and it generally works great. In general I find Moz to be a bit more stable than Konq, but I like Konq's speed better.

    ---
  • Now if only I could read my verisign x509 encrypted mail I could ditch netscape COMPLETELY!

  • I'm quite sure this will be an option. If you're very concerned you should probably check the gtk-2* and gtk-devel lists to see if the issue has come up yet.
  • This is my only bitch about galeon (I have it as my primary browser, and have since I could use cookies and https with it). Because of the way that the gtkmozembed widget is embedded it has to start up the rendering engine of mozilla first (if you look at the output of a galeon start up it's quite similar to that of mozilla), which is quite hefty. However, the browser is quite snappy. Of course, a k7-1G + 256mb ram helps as well :)

    Hopefully someday the embedded widget will become lighter weight and easier to integrate into things (not that chris blizzard hasn't done an awsome job already of course!).
  • First of all, I don't think this is (or it shouldn't be) a Konq vs Galeon vs Mozilla bashing session. The article was just about galeon :)

    However, as a galeon user I feel the need to respond to a couple of points:

    While Konq itself is small, it brings with it all of KDE. If you are not in the KDE environment, it seems to take a lot longer than 2 seconds to start up (IIRC) because of all the K* services that it has to run to get itself bootstrapped.

    I'm not sure how galeon deals with this (as it probably does a bit of the same in looking for/starting up gnome* services like oafd, etc. However, I don't think it's as bad. Granted, I'm not really up on that whole thing... it works and I use it :)

    Having all the floppy://, audiocd:// etc etc is great, however, all I want is a web browser! Opening up pdfs maybe (as they are common on the web these days), but other than that I don't care to open up word docs (having kword and it's libraries installed significantly bloats the Konq install size I think :) I just want to browse the web! Adding all the protocol support is cool for a desktop environment (what konq does in file browser mode) but as far as a browser, it's bloat IMHO.

    Now that all said, the cruft that is needed to run konq in the KDE and QT libs is equalled in the gtk/gnome libs that galeon requires. Of course, one is designed for gnome, and one is designed for kde, and they work better in their respective environments so ..... :)

    Guess it goes back to the "which tool is better for the job" philosophy eh?
  • by Craig Maloney (1104) on Tuesday June 26, 2001 @05:39AM (#127775) Homepage
    I've been downloading the latest nightlies, and I must say (yes, I know it's beensaid here may times, many ways), that Mozilla has become my browser of choice. It feels like it's getting faster every iteration of the way, and bugs I've reported have been fixed. I've been using it for the past month, and I must say I'm very satisfied with it. I'm finding myself firing up Netscape less and less, and finding myself disappointed every time I have to. No, I'm not a troll, nor am I looking for flamebait. I'm just a satisfied user.

    However, I am glad that there are browsers like Konqueror and Galeon out there. Why? Choice! We're getting some pretty kick-ass projects out of some very dedicated individuals, and they're making it harder for people to choose which one to use based on merits. They're ALL good! :) I commend everyone working on thes projects for giving back so much of their time, and giving us choices in the browser market. You developers deserve more thanks than you or your projects get in this kind of forum.

    Kudos to you!

  • skipstone doesn't require gnome, but it has most of the features of galeon, plus it's just recently implemented a plugin architechture. so anything you want that it doesn't have, you can add. I've completely switched over. the only things that I have a problem with are mozilla related.
    ---------------------------------------- ------
    All that glitters has a high refractive index.
  • by Derek (1525)
    I've heard good things said about the "rendering" speed of many different browsers but I have NEVER seen any number or benchmarks to support those claims. I get the feeling that phrases like "raw performance" and "speed" and purely subjective. Am I mistaken? Does anyone know of a few good (ie difficult or lengthy sites to render) where I can compare the brower's speed? Given the raw processing power of most modern computers, it seems that connection speed will almost always be the limiting factor.

    -Derek
  • KDE is plain and simple, the most disgusting user interface experience one could ever have. It is a direct copy of the win9x interface, except it falls way short. The look feel is modeled exactly after win9x, which in itself leaves much to be desired, but QT/KDE just don't get it right.

    I dunno, I rather like the QT widget-set and the way it all fits together. Now I don't have a panel and I don't run KDM; I run WindowMaker and thus have a dock; this keeps me far happier than KDM or Win9x/2k ever did.

    Yes I know that GTK can be resized just like QT and I agree that GTK is prettier -- they seem to have the lion's share of the icon artists, but the QT widgets work nicer, play nicer and "feel" ten times more functional than the GTK widgetset. I only wish that QT had tear-away menus like GTK.

  • Is there a name for a truly pure troll/flame? This is quintessential. Perfect. Pure.

    Though I don't agree with you, you have my respect as someone who can so perfectly offend.

  • While I love galeon and am starting to dread having to use anything else, it's not exactly light-weight on the resources:

    user 10158 0.0 11.6 45596 29820 pts/0 S Jun25 0:13 /opt/galeon/bin/galeon-bin

    Still, it renders so fast and is so stable these days (and RAM is so cheap) that the memory usage seems like a small price to pay for such an excellent piece of software.

    Now, I just need Ximian to release their new stuff for Solaris 7 so I can get a working mozilla install at work and get rid of Netscape...
  • But, AFAIK, K-Melon lacks the coolest feature of Galeon -- tabbed browsing! That can be found in Netcaptor [netcaptor.com], however.
  • Well you can't be using current CVS. because at least the lists.debian.org works just fine here. Maybe a temporary bug biting you? Also the font setting with AA has always worked here.
    Upgrade to X-4.1 and qt-2.3.1 tro get even prettier faster AA fonts.

    The other two matters you mentioned (https proxy and several characters setes on one page) really are matters, but they are not what I would call grave.

    --
  • What so special and so much BETTER about Konqueror?

    1. It relies only on GPL/LGPL and BSD style software unlike other software that grants special powers to AOL.

    2. It is more modular than anything. You have TWO html renderers, the excellent khtml and you guessed it kmozilla, which was only done to show that it can be done. khtml is simply better.

    3. Konqueror is very small, it is just a container for all ind of plugins, or kparts as they are called. There exist generic kparts (nspluginviewer) and specialized ones (kdvi). Oh, if you have kword installed, you even open .doc files in konqueror.

    4. Konqueror makes no difference between all the different protocols. smb networking, ftp, even pop, smtp and ldap can be browsed.
    Did I mention audio cd- grabbing (audiocd:/)? Automatic conversion to MP3 and OGG included? Or floppy:/ ? No mounting, just a wrapper around the mtools.

    5. Did I mention that it starts up in less then 2 seconds? (KDE-2.2beta1 on AMD Athlon 600, KDE loaded) New windows appear in under one second and are responding.

    6. Numerous plugins exist: Web page archiving, Translation, HTML validation, Image retrieval via neural net... Netscape plugins (realplayer and flash) as well as Java and so on work fine.

    8. The previews are really nice: Automatic previews for postscript, images, pdf, text, html and brand new, audio lprevlistening (just rest the mouse over an MP3 to hear it).

    ...

    So before you think that galeon is modular, have a look at konqueror. This thing is the best.
    --
  • Unfortunately newbies tend to tear them off and get confused.
    So they are not used everywhere in KDE. KDE-2.2beta1 has a Start menue that you can tear off though if you need it on the screen at all times.
    --
  • And well, check it out, it has become much better in the last 3 month. A lot faster and many more pages work in the alphas. The beta will come out next week or so.

    And calling other peoples gift crap makes you seem like a complete fucker. Maybe you shoudl use windows and see how much bill cares if you say "it's crap"
    --
  • You don't need KDE to make use of all the goodness in khtml.

    Do you know about netraider and konq_embedded?

    If not check them out, just the essential Konqueror:
    http://www.konqueror.org/embedded.html

    This is not really a fork, just a compilation option BTW!

    Download here: http://devel-home.kde.org/~hausmann/snapshots/
    Size of the (HTML+Javascript) browser: 1,4 MB !!!! Cool huh?

    Another derived project is netraider: http://mandragon.org/raider/


    --
  • USe KDE-2.2, qt-2.3.1 and Xfree4.1

    AA still had many glitches (remeber it is NEW), most of them disappeared in the past two months.

    And to change your homepage, go to the page you want as homepage and go to Window -> Save View Profile -> Web Browsing. Voila, You can even create new view profiles. :-)


    --
  • It is GPL It is GPL It is GPL It is GPL It is GPL It is GPL It is GPL It is GPL It is GPL It is GPL It is GPL It is GPL It is GPL It is GPL It is GPL It is GPL It is GPL ....

    Understood?

    And even the QT_Embedded version is you guessed it GPL. Like Linux. Like many cool things you like. It is free software and open source, comprende?

    The only thing that is not free software or open ource is the MS Windows version (even though you can since today use it for free for hobby projects). But who cares about Windows?

    --
  • Given that _both_ Mozilla and Galeon are beta/alpha software, I don't see where the problem with this is.
  • Actually, I think you are confused on terms. Gecko (I think) still fits on one disk. It is Mozilla that doesn't.


    Someone needs to take Gecko, remove XUL, remove Mozilla and add a decent, smart API (just like Netscape's plugin API, which is, what, 5 functions?) and release that browser only app. Galeon and Skipstone are nice strips of Mozilla, but they still require a lot of Moz parts unfortunately.


    Actually, Galeon uses very little Mozilla. It only uses the rendering engine and http/https stuff. It handles its own bookmarks, it uses an external handler to handle downloads. It uses very, very little Mozilla.


    Also, if you don't like XPCom (which very few people do), you could just use it as a GTK widget. Yes, Mozilla compiles down to just a regular GTK widget. Then, you don't have to mess with XPCom _at all_.


    Gecko is doing a great job. It is still the best rendering engine available. Why don't you trust the Mozilla people? The reason they have so many bug reports is that they count everything a bug that even remotely looks incorrect. Most applications that track bugs that well, (1) take a long time to finish, and (2) have a very large bug database. I imagine if Konqueror classified everything as a bug that Mozilla does, it would have a large bug database, too. I've seen the list of non-standards-compliance tests that Konqueror fails. In Mozilla, each failure would be listed as at least one bug.


    Now, I actually like Konqueror, and use it on occasion. But please, Mozilla is aiming high. Don't trash them because their aims are higher than yours.

  • Gecko is a great rendering engine.

    Most definitely. With a terrible framework underneath. Gecko is no longer the "fits on one disk and you're happy" jewel.

    I investigated it for a kiosk system and I was not happy. After untarring Mozilla (400+ MB!) and having everything set up I wanted to set up a remote app to control Gecko through XPCOM.

    About 14 ns*.h includes, 30 lines of code and hours looking for documentation which was all outdated, I gave up because I couldn'y even register with XPCOM yet. Even the developerWorks tutorials at IBM.com didn't help. :-(

    It took me one include file, a few lines of code and about fifteen minutes of searching on the web before I had an application talking to Konqueror.

    Someone needs to take Gecko, remove XUL, remove Mozilla and add a decent, smart API (just like Netscape's plugin API, which is, what, 5 functions?) and release that browser only app. Galeon and Skipstone are nice strips of Mozilla, but they still require a lot of Moz parts unfortunately.

    Pity Mozilla.org is _seriously_ undermaned (they are complete & utterly bogged down in bugs).

    This will be circular, but I now know why: the entrance level of Mozilla coding is too high. Too much code, too little documentation.

    Before hitting that -1, Flamebait: yes, I will admit I am a KDE developer and I am biased. But I develop KDE as a hobby and had to make an unbiased decision at work and concluded that while Gecko is a beauty in concept, the Mozilla layer surrounding it destroyed a lot.

    Please, someone. Fork Gecko and make it what it was supposed to be. As long as Gecko is maintained by the Mozilla guys, I habe more trust in khtml.

  • He's just a troll. But, he makes some valid points. I've just decided to use the KDE libs for an app I'm writing because the Gnome ones are in such a bad state. Hardly anything seems to be stable, and what there is is pretty poor in comparision to KDE/QT. Also, the documentation for KDE and QT is complete, whereas the docs for Gnome are unfinished. Not even GTK 1.2 has a fully documented API, and thats been around for ages.

    The trouble with Gnome is it wants to run before it can walk. Nothing ever seems to get finished. Libraries are half-writtten and then dropped in favour of something new.

    It's a shame, because I think Gnome could be really good.
  • "Maybe Galeon should always restart with a dialog saying "Sorry I crashed, but it was Mozilla's fault!" "

    Then I guess modularity sucks really. If you can't depend on what you are calling to be correct you have to do it yourself. I personally use Mozilla only for the fonts. Netscape is hideous but actually works better for much HTML than Mozilla. I haven't tried Konqueror in a long time. I may be switching back over from WM to KDE soon.

    Dave

  • Faster than what Netscape? Netscape 6 maybe, I'll give you that. But IE5 renders much more slowly than NS4.*. As for reliability, it's hard to say. IE runs too slowly for normal use on my SS10HS125. Thus, I never run it for any length of time. There is also the total lack of plug-ins.
  • by Skeezix (14602) <jamin@pubcrawler.org> on Tuesday June 26, 2001 @05:34AM (#127795) Homepage
    It's fast. Gecko (especially recent builds) renders beautifully and does it very fast. You can also start galeon with the -s option (server). This will cause it to behave kind of like IE, initializing things without actually popping up a window. I have this saved in my Gnome session so it starts up as a server every time I log into Gnome. Then I just start galeon with -w for new window in existing process and it's there instantly.

    Tabbed Browsing rocks. I don't know how to live without this now. Nor more multiple windows for me. I just middle click links and they start in a new tab. All annoying popups go there too, where I can ignore them.

  • As Galeon, gets better so does Mozilla. When will Galeon support Flash and all those various plugins out there? Konqueror already does this. Konqueror even has application and component embedding for crying out loud. When Galeon reaches this point, Mozilla will be usable, not to mention that Konqueror is here now.

    Mozilla/Galeon has been able to use Flash since at least 0.8. I've used this and the RealAudio plugin a number of times (mostly at joecartoon.com :-) You just drop the plugin into /usr/lib/mozilla-0.9.1/plugins, and off you go. . .

    Cheers,

    Michael
  • No they did not use code from Mozilla. kmozilla is not a part of konqueror, but a plugin which can be used instead of the khtml engine.

    Virtually everyone uses KHTML with Konqueror and thus they are using 100% new code.
  • Last time I saw a memory usage figure for Galeon, it was no smaller than Mozilla's, weighing in at an elephantine 30MB or so. Few modern graphical browsers are
    as small as Opera, but they can surely do better than that. Anyone has a memory
    usage figure for the current Galeon? Thanks.
  • You too, eh? Mozilla and Galeon seem to work ok. I prefer Konq myself, though, as it is much faster...again, one thing in mind: browsing the Web on KDE on *NIX. Mozilla was written for much more than that.
  • A bit offtopic, but...
    Every time /. has a story about some browser they *always* write that they use Konqueror! Yes, it is a great browser and yes, we should know about alternatives, but c'mon.. We know already!

    So everytime you mention MS and/or Windows, you will go "Yeah, but I use Linux. It is great!" ??

    If you use _insert-web-browser-name_, post it in a comment, and get modded down!

    -- Vidar
  • If they had, they'd have missed a lot of functionality that needed links into the rendering engine to properly work. Now, Gecko, the main engine, is so flexible it can do anything Mozilla throws at it, as well as just about anything else anyone would want in a browser.

    Is Mozilla too big? Ok, grab Galleon, which comes with a full-featured Gecko rendering engine, thanks to the over-large Mozilla.

    Maybe you don't agree with the specific subset of features that Mozilla had, but because they have a ton, it'll be easier for specialty browsers in the future to have the exact set of features that you want.

    Or, if you want an embeddable HTML rendering engine for anything.. Want to do nicely formatted manuals for your application in a platform independent way? Use Gecko to render them, it runs (and produces consistent output) on more platforms than your program will...
  • When will Galeon support Flash and all those various plugins out there?
    Errr... like already perhaps? Since Galeon uses the mozilla rendering engine, all the plugins work exactly the same.

    What you should have said is "as Mozilla gets better, so does Galeon". Which would have been true.

    Quite how such an uninformed comment got modded up escapes me entirely....

  • Make sure you are using Galeon 0.11 and Mozilla 0.9.1 - there were bugs in Mozilla before that release.

    Also, because of certain brain-dead features of Mozilla, it is often best to run Mozilla as root first, then as a normal user.
  • Published? Where?
  • Well, if you're going for the standard Konqueror install, then you need the 'kdelibs' and 'kdebase' package. You don't have to install everything in 'kdebase', but it's easier :). If you want something smaller, look for 'Konqueror embedded' [konqueror.org], which doesn't need KDE or X.
  • ... you do know that blackbox is a window manager, and KDE and GNOME *aren't*, don't you?

    You can use KDE with blackbox (and sawmill/sawfish, and icewm, and TWM...) very easily. If they don't implement the new window manager specification, then you lose some features, but the programs still work.
  • It's too late to sound clear and reasonable now: you should have thought of that before you trolled.

    now:
    'I wasn't implying that KDE sucked or should be tossed, far from it.'
    earlier:
    earlier:
    'KDE is plain and simple, the most disgusting user interface experience one could ever have'

    Have you ever used CDE? Better, how about Xaw applications (Xfig, Xmag, etc)? You may not have meant it, but you really pissed me off. Don't insult an entire desktop environment because you don't think you can make it look k3wl enough.

  • You my friend, are a rabid KDE user ; )

    Smiley noted :). That said - I'm not rabid. I've defended GNOME before from idiot 'KDE RULEZ GNOM SUKS' posters. I just love the fact that *twice* (with GNOME and KDE) a volunteer network of part-time coders has managed to produce someting better than CDE...

    But anyway: this discussion was supposed to be about Galeon, so we're both off-topic. Sorry for shouting at you :)

  • That's not all. It has mouse support. You can click links (hehheh) and the right-click menu works as you would expect.

    The mouse won't work in all terminals, though. I've used it in Eterm and the KDE 2 Konsole, which has a full-screen mode, too.

    I haven't tried it in the GNOME console but I couldn't use my mouse in mc under it, so I doubt it.
  • Um, Galeon uses Flash just fine, and any other plugin Mozilla can.
  • Konq. is still quite new...

    ...it's also a *browser*
  • All applicatns? Will it be possible to turn off? I hate antialiasing.
  • Another annoying this is it, like all KDE programs, assumes the user is an idiot. I mean, the user can't even be trusted with XLFD, but instead just has "small, medium, and large" for the font size? What kind of crap is that? I hate KDE.
  • Konqueror is great, and web pages look terrific with anti aliasing is turned on. Galeon / moz can't do it as far as I know (may be with GTK 2?)

    GTK+ 2 will have antialiasing in all apps, so you can bet that Galeon will. I saw a bit of talk on the Galeon development list about a port to the GTK+ 2 beta, but I don't know if anything will come of it quite yet. Mozilla will have to also be ported to GTK 2 to get antialiasing in the actual web pages.

    If you're brave and you feel up to recompiling gtk+, mozilla, and galeon, there are patches available against gtk+ 1.2.9 or later and mozilla 0.9 or later that provide antialiasing. I've got galeon running with antialiased fonts using this approach. The one caveat is that some apps will break. Many of them can be convinced to work by recompiling, some of them (notably nautilus and xemacs-gtk-gnome) can't. If you feel lucky, the patches are at http://www.chez.com/alex9858/gtkaa/ [chez.com]. I'm not currently using them, because I need xemacs-gtk-gnome and I like nautilus, but if anyone's interested I can post source rpms and i386 (rh6.x) rpms.


    --
    The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must cover
    Yhtill forever. (R. W. Chambers, the King in Yellow)
  • Will it be possible to turn off?

    Yes; it's controlled by an environment variable, just like antialiasing in QT.


    --
    The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must cover
    Yhtill forever. (R. W. Chambers, the King in Yellow)
  • Umm... you can theme KDE(QT). You know that right? :)

    Obviously not ;)
  • by joq (63625)

    Judging on my log files for my site, I noticed that obviously the majority was Microsoft, followed by Netscape, then Mozilla Gecko, followed by Konqueror. I've tried Konqueror a while back and it was ok, I dreaded having to download KDE entirely though since I couldn't find konqueror as a standalone, and if I'm not mistaken it doesn't come as a standalone. (who knows I stay away from KDE2)

    The browser wars really make little sense to me, for one I can view everything just fine in Netscape under FreeBSD, except Java/Javascripts blow, however when neccessary I fire up Mozilla to quash all problems. My problem with Mozilla is, it's rather (dare I say) bloated, and takes up a lot of resources, hence I guess to each their own.

    Opera was cool a ways back, and I haven't tried it in some time, but I've heard, and seen posted there are click me spam ads all over the place. Lynx is great for visiting this site, but all in all I stick with good old faithful Netscape, who always loads my bitches' [antioffline.com] every curve just fine.
  • I'll give you this...KDE, WindowMaker, Afterstep, and even XFce are smoother and more stable for the most part, than Gnome has been for me. I run WindowMaker and XFce primarily, because I like the fact that they don't look like windoze.

    Given the choice, I'd rather use the Gnome Panel than KDE...because although it might have to mount in a corner, it can be made to sit only in the corner. KDE's main toolbar/taskbar/panel always takes up the entire edge you place it on. If they could make it sit in a corner, then perhaps I'd look at it.

    I came to linux because I don't like windows - how it looks, how it works (or doesn't). Why would I want a GUI that still looks like it?

    http://www.xfce.org/
    Small, fast, lightweight desktop environment
    Get yours now ;)
  • Actually, I see no compelling differences to move beyond MSIE5.0. I haven't read anything suggesting an advancement in browser technology...

    First of all, the later IE's (like 5.5) are a lot more stable than 5.0, so I hope you'll at least upgrade that far.

    As for 6.0 having no advances: how about the genuine W3C standards-compliant rendering engine? The main obstacle to implementing this earlier (like in IE5.0) was that it breaks the of non-compliant webpages that have come up over the years. But with IE6, if you include a <DOCTYPE> tag at the top of your page, the browser will -gasp!- render it precisely according to the DTD you claim to be using.

    And for backwards compatibility, they still have a copy of the 5.5 engine in there which is the default if you don't specify a doctype. Definitely a bloated approach to solving the problem, but at least it deals with the contradictory needs of a partially-standarized web...

    ---

  • Mozilla lets you press Ctrl+= (or Ctrl++) to increase the font size. I'm not sure if Galeon has that feature.
  • KDE is plain and simple, the most disgusting user interface experience one could ever have. It is a direct copy of the win9x interface, except it falls way short. The look feel is modeled exactly after win9x, which in itself leaves much to be desired, but QT/KDE just don't get it right. Everything is just slightly off, which is incredibly irritating. The theming support QT is awful.Just compare all the GTK/GNOME themes to KDE themes, there is not comparison at all. GTK/GNOME just kills KDE when it comes to visual appeal.

    GTK is the most beautiful widget set I have ever seen. It has it's own unique look and feel. The default theme looks similar to Motif, but it has a much cleaner, fresher look, and it has a feel all of it's own.

    As for GNOME itself, I like it. I like the menu panels, and the very configurable edge/corner panels. The icon sets that come with GNOME are 10x better than the ugly cruft KDE comes with.

    This is all IMO, and I don't mean to offend any rabid KDE users. KDE is great, I just personally hate it.

    As for your opinion that Gnome should close up shop, you can cram it. Who are you to tell them what they should/shouldn't do, it's their project and they can do whatever the hell they want with it.

    I'll stick with having choices thank you very much, I much prefer Gnome over KDE.

  • Holy fucking shit, how fucking dumb can you fuckers get?

    This was not a fucking troll, it was my goddam fucking opinion, since when are people supposed to be moderated down for their opinion. All I said was that *____I____* hated KDE and that that was just MY FUCKING ____OPINION____.

    I wasn't BAITING anyone, I wasn't INSULTING anyone, I was just STATING the fact that *I* am glad to have a CHOICE in desktop enviornments.

    Goddam stupid mother fuckers.

    ___THIS___ is a fucking troll you fucking dumbass shit for fucking brains cock sucking morons.

  • "'KDE is plain and simple, the most disgusting user interface experience one could ever have'"

    That is out of context. Shortly after that I said that that was simply *MY* opinion and that I was glad there are CHOICES and that I didn't mean to offend anyone.

    I gave my reasons for disliking it, but nowhere did I say that everyone should agree with me, I said I was glad to have a choice.

    Please, get offended when someone tells you to stop doing work that you love and enjoy, but don't take offense to other peoples' opinions, especially when they say they don't mean to insult you.

    You my friend, are a rabid KDE user ; )

    Yeah, so, I am a rabid Gnome user ; )

  • And I'll try and learn to write ; )

    You didn't read my whole post, I talked about the theming support in KDE. I think it's a pretty lame attempt at theming, GTK does a hell of a much better job.

    But, just IMO. To each his own. I like having choices, choices are good.

  • That's not what I said. My point was that one was a copy, and one was an original design.

    I suppose all the Gnome developers, and all the Gnome users are all just silly people then? They made a GRAPHICAL USER INTERFACE look nicer than the competition's, how silly of them.

  • I was responding to a Troll who was saying that the Gnome guys should throw in the towel, and I was saying that I don't like KDE so I'd prefer to continue having a choice. That's all. I even said that my opinions about KDE were just that, opinions. I wasn't implying that KDE sucked or should be tossed, far from it.

    Plus, just because I don't like KDE doesn't mean that I don't like any KDE apps. Of course I'd prefer that they were Gnome apps, but again, just IMO ; )

    Seriously, what I would love to see is better integration of Gnome / KDE menus. I'd really like KDE apps that I install to install a launcher in my Gnome menus and vice versa. Loki is doing this with all their games now. The only apps that'd I'd like kept separate as far as menus go are the default utilities and such that come with each desktop.

    Also, just look how the competition between KDE and Gnome is driving them to work harder, I think it's great.
  • Psm works fine for me. Get the newest release of galeon, and mozilla 0.9.1, and make sure your mozilla comes with psm. That's all there's to it.

  • I've found that by taking an xterm, making the window huge (something on the order of 200x100 chars) and running links [freshmeat.net], one can get a pretty darn decent text-only web browsing experience. It does tables and formatting very nicely, as opposed to lynx.
  • me too :-)

    AussiePenguin
    Melbourne, Australia
    ICQ 19255837

  • I love "minimum font size" - it saves me lots of headaches. And if the whole page is set to that tiny font size, I can zoom the whole page easily. Opera rocks.


    I have zero tolerance for zero-tolerance policies.

  • I don't know who's been telling you about Opera, but he's wrong. Opera 5 rocks my world. I've been using it as my primary browser since January. I'm not registered, so there's an ad up in the corner of the app, but it bothers me not in the least bit. Download it, try it out, you'll like it.


    I have zero tolerance for zero-tolerance policies.

  • The one thing I go back to Netscape/MSIE for is printing. Why doesn't anybody talk about printing?

    For instance, has anybody figured out how to print a multi-page document with Konqueror so that it doesn't look like crap?

    I'm using US-Letter-sized paper; I tell it I'm using US-Letter-sized paper; and still it breaks lines in half.

    I mean it leaves the upper half of the characters at the bottom of one page, and the lower half of the characters at the top of the next page.

    'Course Mozilla printing still isn't as pretty as Netscape 4.7, either, but it's starting to get marginally useful. Opera is okay on some pages but cuts others off at the right margin.

    Still, when I want a hardcopy of a webpage, I go back to Netscape or (shudder) MSIE.

  • Have you ever used CDE? Better, how about Xaw applications (Xfig, Xmag, etc)?
    I use xfig all the time. I prefer its look to the Qt/KDE look. It is customizable through X resources, you know.
  • Actually, you can get IE5 for Solaris.. I've used it, it's not to bad. Some people have gotten it to run under linux, but it's a huge pain in the ass.. or so I hear.
    --
  • There's a bug in how Mozilla scales fonts on linux. I'm not sure if the fix has been checked in at the moment, though.
  • No, Galeon displays everything beautifully for me. I'm using Galeon 0.11 with Mozilla 0.9.1 on Debian Sid (unstable).

    Given that Galeon is just using Mozilla's rendering engine, I'm not sure how it could be introducing rendering problems of its own (other than, say, ROT13'ing all the HTML before letting Gecko see it).

  • Does anyone else find the fonts in Konqueror painful to look at. I swear if they could fix this one problem they would have a first-tier web browser. Please, K-team, fix this for me!
  • Until very recently I hated KDE like the plague - and then we installed RH 7.1 here, along with the KDE pack. I fell in love with the system! GNOME has a lot of very *good* features, and *good* applications, but KDE is so much more mature. Konquerer is great for browsing - the cookie warning, while a little thing, is still important to me.

    But I haven't given up on GNOME yet. Galeon works very well for the important stuff - it'll load a /. comment page in the 'blink of an eye.'

    (And Hemos, I think we all know Konquerer is your favorite!)
  • I don't understand why people keep saying that the other browsers on Linux are still not "quite ready to take over for Netscape 4.77". Moz and Konq are both great, and have a somewhat different set of bugs. If a site is unusable on one I go to the other and it generally works great.

    Because those freaks expect a single piece of software to accomplish a single task. They don't want to have to try one and switch when they encounter a bug, then back when they encounter another.

    Realistically, I'm not satisfied with any of the browsers available for Linux. At the moment, I'm using Mozilla. This latest version is the first to seem fairly stable to me (meaning it crashes infrequently, not that it doesn't crash). But no matter what everyone says, it still is slow. When I click the back button in IE, I see the previous page at my previous location within the page. On Mozilla, I see it load the top of the previous page, pop in some of the images (seems like really small images don't cache or something, not quite sure) and reflow to fit them, then move to the previous location. All sorts of stuff that just makes it go slower and feel even slower.

    Someone will reply about how the latest nightly build is better. It's inevitable; it always happens when talking about Mozilla. It's not fucking true. CVS versions of anything are not known for stability. Developers break things between releases. It's expected. If they didn't, the software wouldn't improve.

  • by Rushuru (135939) on Tuesday June 26, 2001 @03:33AM (#127846)
    I often see comments like "I don't care if mozilla / netscape dies because we have Konqueror now" or "Mozilla is bloatware / gecko /galeon sucks" on /. or irc.

    And I admit that the way Konqueror renders HTML pages is really impressive for such a small project (I read somewhere that there's only one full time konq developper).

    It seems almost to good to be truth: one small team of KDE developper made a browser that is on par with that of a huge organization with many developpers like Netscape / AOL / Mozilla community?

    It seems to good to be truth!
    So I always wondered whether the Konqueror team has not re-used some code from Mozilla / Gecko.

    If not, then congrats to the KDE guys. Too bad there have been duplicate efforts to develop these 2 terrific web browsers
    If they did reuse some code (I'm not 100% sure that the mozilla licence permits that though), then I hope that Konqueror fans will stop bashing mozilla and galeon.
  • by Rushuru (135939) on Tuesday June 26, 2001 @03:17AM (#127847)
    Konqueror is great, and web pages look terrific with anti aliasing is turned on. Galeon / moz can't do it as far as I know (may be with GTK 2?)

    However Konqueror has a number of issues, and I find myself using mozilla more than konqueror although I use KDE as my desktop environment

    - First Konqui can't display several charsets on a page. So, for example the bottom of the page on www.debian.org (where you have the lists of available language for the page written in the native languagem like "ú-{OEê for japanese etc.) does not display correctly. Mozilla and even Netscape 4.7 have absolutely nop problem with this. This issue is fixed with qt 3.0, and new releases of KDE (after 2.2) may switch to qt3, hence clearing this bug.

    - Some pages do not display correctly (they're 10 times too wide with many blank spaces for example), even when faking the user agent to that of moz or netscape (with which the page works) (but this is very rare, most pages display correctly).

    - IIRC Konqueror does not have separate options for http and https proxies

    - And I also have that very annoying bug with AA turneed on: if a web page does not specify to use a given font, then konqueror uses the first font in the list. In my case, it's a fantasy font, which makes reading pages like http://lists.debian.org a real nightmare. There's a default font option in my KDE 2.2 post alpha 2 build, but it doesn't seem to work.

  • by TheLocustNMI (159898) on Tuesday June 26, 2001 @02:56AM (#127851) Homepage
    Frankly, i LOVE Galeon. I can't get enough of it. It's almost like someone actually PAID ATTENTION TO THE USER FOR ONCE. We don't need these all-in-one bloatfests (Where's my StarOffice CD?), we need applications that do one thing, do it well, and have features relevant to the application.

    My only wish: that there was a Windows port of Galeon i could use at work on my NT box (nudge,nudge).

  • "A new version of Mozilla has been posted on their site, but I only use Konqueror."

    "Here's a site with some great info on Galeon, which doesn't happen to be Konqueror, the world's greatest web browser."

    "John Carmack has been interviewed on Blue's News. John's neighbour owns an Apple iMac. Apple is run by Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs once used Netscape which isn't Konqueror!"

    Please, please cut it out Hemos. We don't care how horny Konqueror makes you, it doesn't have to be mentioned in every single post.


    ---
  • Galeon is about as usable as Mozilla at this point.

    Maybe, if you have a dual 1.6 GHz P4. Otherwise, Mozilla is horrendously S-L-O-W-E-R! Their user interface (in contrast with the rendering engine, which runs nicely) is a disgusting bloatware. You click on _File, go to lunch, come back and MAYBE the drop-down menu already showed up.

    But let me tell you, if they get it to run faster they have a killer. Either them or Galeon + Evolution, provided the latter offer all features I'm used to in Netscape Messenger, and is stable (haven't tested Evolution in a while, actually).

    You might be wondering why I didn't mention Konqueror. I use only GNOME because I fell in love with the easy upgradability brought by Red Carpet. (will update my distro too!) Until the KDE folks come out with something similar, or a KDE channel for Red Carpet, I'll stay with GNOME.

  • Maybe because after shelling out $180 for Windows and another $300 for Office (numbers pulled out of thin air just to be cantankerous)... no one feels like paying $25 for some web browser when there are at least two available for free that work with pretty much every web page under the sun.
  • Okay. At work, multiply each number by the number of employees, then tell me if $25 x Num_Emp is greater than, less than, or equal to $0-- the price for putting Internet Explorer on all those machines.
  • Look to see if a package named kdebindings-kmozilla (IIRC, the name might be slightly different) is installed... if so, remove it. You might actually be using mozilla inside of Konqueror instead of Konqueror's KHTML engine. While it's a neat tech demo, it sucks for actual use.
  • Ok... who copied who? I went to the netcaptor link you gave and I was surprised to see this --> "This screenshot demonstrates NetCaptor's patent-pending browser tab interface."

    you can see this right at http://www.netcaptor.com/tour.php

    Patent? I believe this patent nonesense is going way too far. Besides, didn't Galeon have this first ?
  • by angry old man (211217) on Tuesday June 26, 2001 @02:55AM (#127866)
    Galeon represents what a browser should stand for! It doesn't have none of these fancy schmancy bells-and-whistles bloat that you young whipsnappers come to expect from each and every application. Shortly after Emacs came out, I knew that we were headed down the road to disaster.

    If you young kids repected your elders, then you would have kept with the Unix philosophy of using small dedicated tools for specific tasks. Read email? You'd use mail. Browse web? Use Lynx. Look at images? Use xv. Use talk for an instant messager

    Nowadays you need fancy schmancy browsers that do everything. Galeon is a step back in the right direction. Although I don't agree that bookmarks should be part of a browser (I used to have to remember the IP addresses in my head), galeon provides an efficient specific web browsing experience. Maybe all you programmers could take some notes from the guy who gave us Galeon!

  • holly wars between ourselves is everything we don't need.

    Flame them all with balls of holly,
    fa la la la la, la la la la.
    Prove the Windows users' folly,
    fa la la la la, la la la la.

    If you use GNOME or KDE,
    fa la la la la, la la la la,
    You are sure more e-lite than me,
    fa la la la la, la la la la.

    --saint
    ----
  • Certainly the robustness of a desktop lies in it's ability to not look like windows, and have a k3wl theming engine. You're right, it is just your opinion it's a silly one but it's all yours.
  • Again. KDE started before gnome. Feel free to continue your arugements about Gnome being more original or better looking or whatever. The case remains that your first post was typical holy war material, a troll if you will. So lets not be negative and trivial and work to create a better environment from which to work as a whole.
  • Many people -windows and linux users- refuse to use netscape, mozilla, or galeon because it is not as nice as IE or konq. I try my very best to use it for exactly that reason. For the IE users I tell them that if they don't use mozilla/galeon then there will never be an answer to microsofts monopoly. Many don't agree with the use-inferior-opensource-software(not that galeon is inferior at this point)-just so that it will get better, but i hold to it. If people stop downloading mozilla then AOL has less of a reason to include it in their browser suite. so, sure - use konq but remember that it is only a linux browser, and (likely) always will be. if you want to support opensource then at least download mozilla and watch AOLinux come around and shoot linux into the 20+ million users hands that are MS zombies now. tomorrow they could be Linux zombies!
  • actually they did reuse code from mozilla:
    konqueror has two rendering engine from which u can choose:
    -kmozilla well, it's gecko
    -khtml, which is QT/KDE development, from scratch, and which is really great indeed :-))
    in fact only one thing remain really weak in konqueror: javascript. but i've seen that KDE 2.2 should fix that.

    anyway, a reason why konqueror (well u're talking about khtml in fact) is such a great thing compared to mozilla, is that it's only a browser, and it doesn't try to reinvent the wheel for each task. it relies deeply on KDE for many things such as rendering images and so on. and they didn't try to make an abstraction bloatware based on GTK/MFC/whatsoever, in order to have it run under every platform on earth...
  • by orbman (315337) on Tuesday June 26, 2001 @04:13AM (#127892) Homepage
    Konqueror is great, and web pages look terrific with anti aliasing is turned on. Galeon / moz can't do it as far as I know (may be with GTK 2?)

    If you recompile Mozilla with Xlib or QT backend instead of GTK backend (see ./configure) then Mozilla can do AA fonts.

    The AA fonts will be in Mozilla 1.0 even with GTK+-1.2.x - you can have AA fonts in GTK apps but you must use Xrender explicitely. (look at http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/) and search "anti alias" strings.

    JFYI - Opera (http://www.opera.com/) can use AA fonts too, when being run under KDE with AA turned on.

    Mozilla 0.9.x is getting better everyday, it's getting faster also ... I think we will have a very good browser when M1.0 will be out.

    (personally, I like Konq. but the thing with preformatted text, square chars withou line breaks annoys me (I often use bugzilla etc.) ... I've been told by KDE developpers they're fixing this)
  • KDE is plain and simple, the most disgusting user interface experience one could ever have. [...] Everything is just slightly off, which is incredibly irritating.

    Gee, thanks for the informative constructive criticism there! "Slightly off!" I'll file a bug report right now!

    Seriously, what kind of complaint is that? Tell us what it is you don't like!

    The theming support QT is awful.Just compare all the GTK/GNOME themes to KDE themes, there is not comparison at all. [...] GTK is the most beautiful widget set I have ever seen. It has it's own unique look and feel.

    GTK has been around for longer, therefore there is a much wider selection of themes, therefore it is more likely there will be ones you like. QT's theming support is actually superior to GTK, it's faster. Plus, KDE comes with a GTK theme importer - KDE can import the GTK "unique" default look. Imported GTK themes run faster under QT/KDE than GTK! I haven't had much luck importing themes other than the default GTK look, however some work has been done on the theme importer since I last looked at it. I think it's fully functional now (in CVS).

  • good man.
  • just wait. do you know why IE has such power and maketshare? because AOL uses it. therefore if you want hte 27+ million users of AOL to see your page correctly, then you whrite everything for IE first then mabey Netscape. when Mozilla is ready, and Netscape incorperates it into it's browser(i.e., plasters a "N" in the top right corner)
    AOL will be ready to feed Netscape to its costomers and IE will all of a sudden loose its maketshare and .NET will come topling down.
  • I have found another GTK+ browser named Skipstone [muhri.net] also based on Gecko.

    How not had a chance to use it yet.

  • I know KDE is almost a direct copy of windows, but Gnome is too. Gnome doesn't do that as much but it still is a copy of Windows.

    Both KDE and Gnome have alot of GUI problems. Is there any mailing-lists, newsgroups to discuss GUI issues for there desktops?

  • So, you develop a standalone web browser similar to Galeon first, allow it to integrate with the existing applications, and then release your own mail, chat, HTML editor, and USENET applications afterwards.

    But Mozilla really wanted to be something very different: it wanted to be its own platform, an entire environment programmable in XML, JavaScript, and XUL. It doesn't look like people are flocking to it for that purpose. So, Mozilla really lost everything: it could have kept Microsoft from taking over the browser market, but because it wanted to be so much more, it is so late that it won't even accomplish that.

  • I have my doubts that Mozilla is competitive with .NET. .NET will ship with every Windows system, it offers familiar APIs, and a pretty fast runtime. What does Mozilla have? It's mostly built around sluggish JavaScript and XML, with a toolkit nobody uses.

    The only alternative to .NET I see is Java, perhaps incorporating Gecko as an HTML rendering component. Java is a full-featured language with an excellent, moderately popular toolkit, lots of widely used APIs, and the JVM runs a wide variety of other languages.

  • by m08593 (455349) on Tuesday June 26, 2001 @04:42AM (#127906)
    If they had, they'd have missed a lot of functionality that needed links into the rendering engine to properly work. Now, Gecko, the main engine, is so flexible it can do anything Mozilla throws at it, as well as just about anything else anyone would want in a browser.

    I think you can give the Mozilla developers a little more credit. These people are experienced programmers that have not only done an HTML rendering engine before, but they are also familiar with rich text rendering in a number of toolkits. They don't need to implement a mail reader to know what kinds of hooks a mail reader needs.

  • by m08593 (455349) on Tuesday June 26, 2001 @03:21AM (#127907)
    I was using KDE mainly because of Konqueror: Mozilla and Netscape just didn't cut it. KDE has some other nice features, but I found it to be a pretty heavy-weight and intrusive desktop, and it has a bunch of annoying bugs. (Yes, I know, you can run Konqueror under other desktops, but it still starts up other KDE services in the background, and it doesn't feel entirely happy.)

    After using Galeon for a couple of days, I think that it's an excellent browser. It doesn't start up lots of oddball support programs, it just browses the web. It also seems more reliable and render more accurately than Konqueror. So, I can finally switch back to a more lightweight desktop.

    I think that if the Mozilla team had concentrated on bringing out this kind of browser, just the browser, they could have been done much earlier and captured so much more market share.

  • What's special and so good about Galeon? It's not faster or more feature-laden than Opera, and nothing can beat Lynx or Links when it comes to speed and size.

    The thing is that it's modular! It's just a frontend to Mozilla and GTM. I can use these programs by themselves, if I want to. One could even make a "K"aleon, just to stop all those KDE freaks from bitchin.

    Every program should have a small, definied area where it works perfect - that's the whole UNIX paradigm!

    I've been using Opera for more than half a year and was greatly impressed how Galeon is going! It even crashes much less. But that's the downside of modularity - you have to rely upon other programs doing their thing well.

    Maybe Galeon should always restart with a dialog saying "Sorry I crashed, but it was Mozilla's fault!"
  • With konqueror I cannot visit my favorite nudie site, it give me a password error everytime. It only happens with konqueror. This is not a joke

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