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Linux on DaVincis 50

Posted by emmett
from the tux-in-the-palm-of-your-hand dept.
SuperJ writes "It looks like the good people of Royal are planning to ship Linux on their line of DaVinci handhelds. Check it out the story at PDA Buzz." We've seen the DaVinci before as the target of a preliminary injunction from 3Com.
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Linux on DaVincis More

Linux on DaVincis

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  • Anyone able to decipher the correct URL?

  • Flamebait Isle (Score:4)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 12 2000, @02:19AM (#1380832)

    Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale,
    A tale of a Slashdot trip
    That started from this Linux post
    Aboard this Natalie ship.

    The mate was a mighty karma whore,
    The Llama brave and sure.
    Five trolls made firsts that day
    For a free trollin' tour, a free trollin' tour.

    The moderatin' started getting rough,
    The tiny thread was tossed,
    If not for the grits of the flamebait crew
    The Natalie would be lost, the Natalie would be lost.

    The trolls set posts on the thread of this opensouce Linux site
    With Postmastah
    The Llama too,
    The Natalie guy and his Drew,
    The Hot Grits guy
    The Trollmastah and Petrified,
    Here on flamebait Isle.

    So this is the thread of the Slashdot trolls,
    They're here for a long, long time,
    They'll have to make the best of things,
    It's an uphill climb.

    The karma whore and the Llama too,
    Will do their very best,
    To make the posters comfortable,
    With the anti-karma post.

    No sig, no points and off topic,
    Not a single karma key,
    Like Robinson Crusoe,
    As primative as can be.

    So join us here each thread my freinds,
    You're sure to get a smile,
    From seven stranded post trollers,
    Here on flamebait Isle."

    .

    Trollmastah

  • Nevermind, it appears that that's all there is to the story. (I guess, tho it seems silly to have a 'read more' link when there's nothing more to read.
  • I just have to ask why? Why do we need Linux on a PDA? I am completly happy with PalmOS on a PDA. I want my PDA to be a PDA and not a handheld computer. Sticking Linux or Windows onto a PDA makes no sense to me. I could care less what OS my set top box, PDA, toaster, and microwave run as long as I can use them and they can get along.

    And as far as app compatibility goes, Linux on a PDA dosen't mean instant KDE or anything of the sort. It's still different hardware then the native ground for Linux. Programmers are still going to have to learn how to make programs run on it even though it runs Linux.

  • IPO? (Score:2)

    by TallG (135907)
    Either they are going to use Linux as the base to the PDA, or they are planning an IPO and want to be assured that there share price will rocket, just think if the thing could do E-Commerce, and used the Transmeta chip as well.....

  • Re:Why? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    That way we can get all these Linux zealot dinks to boast about how much longer my uptime with the Linux PDA is compared to Palm OS.

  • Re:Why? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Because they won't have to pay licencing fees.
    If they just build it they (the geeks) will come.
    They can say "It uses the insanely popular linux os!".
    The day PDAs are more like computers and less like glorified calendars is the day the market will really take off.

    The biggest reason is competition. I wan't soemething new at least every other month. I don't care if the product itself sucks, just as long as it's new.

  • <sigh> It's a dirty job... but somebody's gotta do it!

    • Wow! Imagine a wireless Beowulf cluster of these things!
    • This isn't news for nerds! I don't need a PDA, so why did Slashdot post this story?
    • Welp, there goes my Karma!
    • I bet this is an evil plot by Microsoft.

    --

  • The day PDAs are more like computers and less like glorified calendars is the day the market will really take off.


    I dread this day. I honestly want a PDA for the same reasons I bought it for, and thats to keep track of my plans and phone numbers, and provide entertainment at certain dull times. I want to hit a button, and start entering data, and not have to worry about setting anything up or installing whatever. Computers are far from being user friendly no matter what OS you run. I want a PDA to be simple, and allow me to enter dates right out of the box. It should be almost as easy as writing dates into a date planner.

    Cell phones are getting really bad anymore with all that they are trying to cram in to a device. I want a small cell phone that lets me talk to people. Thats it. I don't want a PDA in the phone, because then it becomes hard to enter data while using the phone for it's purpose. I don't want to browse the web, thats what I have a laptop for. Stock quotes? Thats what channel 201 on my DishPlayer is for. (Push technology to the satelite box is nice).


  • Re:Why? (Score:3)

    by SEE (7681) on Wednesday January 12 2000, @03:16AM (#1380841) Homepage
    Well, to start with, all the practical and ideological reasons why free/open source software is preferable to closed software. ESR and RMS have written books worth of essays on the advantages.

    Second, because a PDA Linux has all the API-similarity advantages vis-a-vis Linux/Unix that WinCE has vis-a-vis Win32.

  • UNIX + personality (Score:3)

    by Epeeist (2682) on Wednesday January 12 2000, @03:16AM (#1380842) Homepage
    We don't need Linux on a PDA. But from a vendor's point of view it makes life a lot easier. They don't have to build an O/S, or buy one and then adapt the front end to fit. They have the source for the O/S, they can modify this to fit the requirements of their application.


    We are already starting to see the Linux/UNIX as a basis for appliances, think of the Cobalt servers, Macintosh O/S etc. I suspect we will be seeing a lot more of them appearing, hence Linus's interest in embedded Linux.

  • Really, as much a troll as this was, if I'd saved just one point from my moderator points yesterday, it would've gotten a funny. Then, you'd be on your way to a Jon Katz feature. Blinkin hilarious I say.

    You are truly the trollmastah.

  • I don't know about everyone else, but I'm impressed...
  • Doesn't seem to be a lot of thirdparty software for the current davincis. I took a look at www.royal.com/davinci and www.davinciworld.com.

    Seems the SDK is "not available" at the moment, also seems they've already changed once from Motorola processors to Sharp processors and are now to change to another incompatible OS (linux).

    Doesn't seem like a good way to build a base of 3rd party developers....

    Anyone got detailed tech specs and info on any 3rd party software for them?

    Personally I'd rather pay the extra for a Palm so I can have a bunch of software for the thing.

  • http://go.to/davinci (Score:3)

    by jsinnema (135748) on Wednesday January 12 2000, @03:44AM (#1380846) Homepage
    If you want to know more about the daVinci have a look at:

    http://go.to/davinci [quickonline.nl]

    Jan
  • The reason I feel sorry for the crew of the Natalie is that they don't seem to have... a Beowulf cluster!

  • Re:Why? (Score:3)

    by generic-man (33649) on Wednesday January 12 2000, @04:42AM (#1380848) Homepage Journal
    The day PDAs are more like computers and less like glorified calendars is the day the market will really take off.

    Really? I suppose you'd want a WindowsCE device, then. For a few years now, Microsoft has been making the OS that turns convenient, simple devices into horribly complicated messes that admittedly have a buttload more features than PalmOS (hopefully) ever will. Have you ever needed to change memory allocation settings because an application wouldn't run? Have you found yourself running out of memory because twelve tasks are running invisibly in the background?

    Please. If you want a handheld computer, you have options (WinCE, Psion, etc.) If you want a device that helps you organize and run nifty software as well, Palm is the one. "The day PDAs are more like computers and less like glorified calendars" has come and gone, and people still flock to the Palm Computing Platform.

  • Re:Why? (Score:1)

    by mr (88570)
    Your right...why is *LINUX* needed on a PDA? No reason Linux.

    Yet, because Linux is OpenSource, you don't end up like Apple Newton developers when the maker of the hardware decided to pack up and leave.

    Its not about Linux, its about OpenSource.
    Some people get this confused...like these fine [milestonerdl.com] people.
    (Hint: Its a picture of a company that called FreeBSD a form of Linux. And the BSD is the powerpack, not the straight up OS.)

  • Re:Why? (Score:2)

    by Smack (977)
    Sure free/open source is better *in general*. But that doesn't mean that all such products are better in a given specific situation. Just because Linux is open source doesn't mean it is an intrinsically better OS for a handheld.
  • Epoc (Psion, Symbian) is a _lot_ better than PalmOS though - without the negative effects of WinCE.

    In Europe, the Psion Revo wins award after award after award. It's basically around the same size as a Palm V, but with a usable keyobard and a lot more useful software.

    Linux on PDAs will be interesting, but I think it will take a lot of time to make it run as good on that kind of hardware compared to dedicated handeld-OS's.

  • Davinci Linux? OK! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I am thinking that a linux based PDA will make it a lot easier for those of us who would prefer to get rid of Windoze, but are unable to because the Sync software that is available only runs on a MS operating system. I've got one of the new 2MB Davinci's and would love to be able to use it with Linux and StarOffice! In addition, if they make the switch to Linux, there will be a lot of programmers that will have a MUCH smaller learning curve when/if they sit down to cut some PDA code. As far as the availability of software for the Davinci's, the 2MB's haven't been out for very long and the company is working out a few bugs on an upgrade to the OS. Once things calm down the SDK should come out and the software will follow!

  • Will the linux davinci synch with linux? (Score:3)

    by RattRigg (4253) on Wednesday January 12 2000, @05:02AM (#1380853)
    I like my davinci, but it seems to me that the big complaint (along with the crappy hand writing recognition ) is the fact that you cant synch with linux.
    If they use Linux for an OS but still require win98 to synch I think they may be missing the idea.

  • The day PDAs are more like computers and less like glorified calendars is the day the market will really take off.

    You're kidding, right?

    I chose the palm precisely because it's OS had nothing in common with traditional computer operating systems. It does what I want it to do. With no muss, no fuss, no crashes and I had effectively mastered it 10 minutes after I opened the box. The fact that I later discovered I could also write software for it in any number of languages was a huge bonus, but not the reason I bought it in the first place.

    If my palm was as hard to use as a WinCE device I would have taken it back and gone back to my paper day timer.

    To my mind, devices like the Palm are the future of all computers: task specific devices that are enhanced by a microprocessor but which do not attempt to be an all purpose computer.

    As for LINUX - I would have thought LINUX to be a strange choice, since UNIX varients tend to be too fat for this type of hardware. I know someone was claiming to have gotten LINUX to boot on a Palm, but they ran out of memory before it even got process #1 started...


    --
  • If they run linux that sort of increases there amount of software by a huge amount. I will buy one if I can have gcc on the go with me! mmnn mud hacking on the go. Id buy one. and id use it to store my addresses *cough*.

  • You are thinking inside the box here. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Because you assume more features must mean added complexcity (which is kind of true for now but that will change). PDAs should have the power to handle all kinds of data and all modes of communication. But to assume that this is going to be interfaced through standard desktop environment X is just wrong. WinCE sucks because they try to do that but a smart company developing PDAs won't.
  • With linux you get a LOT of applications at your disposal. I cannot think of much that would be better than having a bahs shell and maybe fvwm on a palm computing device. If they configure it properly it can have every bit the function of a Palm. And then you have a nice PDA with all the linux software you can get to compile. My primary hope is they would include GCC in there. Again I dont know how they can fit all that much inside of like 8M tho. You can fit a respectable kernel and alot of text-based apps. But how do you fit an X server on the thing. (Unless they go with a Micro Hard drive) Mmn oh well I dont think it will be all that great but we can wait and hope.
  • Actually, moving to Linux seems like an exelent method of gaining 3rd party developers. It also goes a long way toward solving their SDK problem. Another problem is that their product isn't that well known. I see them in stores, but don't hear about them in the press. Moving to Linux should get them a good amount of free marketing. Now if they can deliver a solid, usable product, then they might even grab some market share from Palm in the long run. It'll likely depend on how much software becomes available for it.

  • Re:Why? (Score:2)

    by Kaa (21510)
    I just have to ask why? Why do we need Linux on a PDA? I am completly happy with PalmOS on a PDA. I want my PDA to be a PDA and not a handheld computer.

    Well, maybe you are completely happy with PalmOS, but that doesn't make it so for the rest of us. Different people have different needs and different tastes.

    I, for one, am unhappy with Palms and I do want my PDA to be a handheld computer. I think Palms are way too simple and limited. If a phone/appointment book is all you need, they are fine. Unfortunately, I want much more from my PDA. Latest Casio goes into the right direction, even though it is hobbled by WinCE (bletch).

    For me (and I am not making any claims about the rest of humanity) Palms are inadequate. I don't need an appointment book and my watch functions as a phone book perfectly well. I really want something like a Psion in a Palm form factor (hey, Psion, hint, hint).

    Kaa
  • Well, I'd love to have TCL or Perl TK and MSQL on the palm. For that matter you could port http/cgi type applications onto the palm.

    I'd like to have a free SDK.

    And that's just for PDA type applications. There are tons of other kinds of applications that demand cheap, rugged, and portable computing other than things keeping your appointments.

    I'll give you an example from my job. I'd like to be able to take a device in the Palm form factor, modify it so it boots right to my software, which would control pesticide application equipment, receive operational data, combine it with GPS readings. Then the device could be popped out of a cradle in the machine, carried into the office, and synched with a database.
  • The only reason Royal is putting Linux on the DaVinci is because their current OS was ripped off from Palm, so now they have nothing. They're probably hoping that a bunch of Linux coders will work together to make that piece of crap PDA into something halfway usable.
    ---------
    James Hromadka
  • I want both pda 'instant on' functionality and unix power at my fingertips. So I use a Psion 3mx and a connection across a cellphone to the office server using a freeware VT100 terminal emulator. This allows me to check e-mail and do (text only) web browsing. Usenet can be accessed and I have all the network tools at my disposal.
    When I just need a phone number I can get it without waiting for a unix system to boot.
    Why carry a heavyweight operating system in your pocket when it's just a few microwaves away?
  • Check out this exchange from the middle of last year between handheld hackers re: uCLinux

    Discussion [organizerworld.com]
  • I agree that Linux seems like somewhat of a poor fit for a PDA. Linux is designed around some hardware assumptions that just aren't true on a PDA (large slow disk + small fast RAM, for example).

    On the other hand, PalmOS is closed. Oops.

    So what about something like eCos [cygnus.com]? It's an Open Source Operating System from a well-known company with a decent track record, both technically and license-wise. Does anyone know how well it would work on a PDA? Is there such a project going on already?

    --Chouser
  • uh, running Linux does not equal binary compatibility. Most probably they will have their own device drivers, gui library and I highly doubt it can support the full standard glibc libary.

    So while it will help a bit in the porting, basically any linux software you want to run will have to be ported to a very specific platform. You won't be running KDE or GTK apps on it anytime soon!
  • To put it briefly, it would mean developers and users would NO LONGER HAVE TO BE 3Com's BITCH.

    3Com has been getting progressively less developer-friendly, in my opinion. API headers can't be modified or redistributed without "express written consent" (a problem for the prc-tools guys, I imagine), they're doing their best to keep anyone from actually using the devsupport E-mail, and none of the debugging ROM images are accessable unless you sign an NDA. Needless to say, the situation can get a bit unpalatable for someone who writes GPL code.

    As far as a switch to Linux - well, yeah, people still have to be careful that their software is reasonably quick on the limited hardware and that it doesn't crash for lack of memory - that much is worth a big fat "duh". All the GUI stuff that would presumably go with ucLinux is still unwritten. (The guys who wrote it -really- wrote it to be used in embedded microcontrollers. Palm Pilot was just a first, very convenient test platform)

    The thing of it is, particularly for programmers and other geeks, Linux on a palmtop would mean simpler transition of code. That doesn't mean the code's gonna be any better suited to the palmtop when it gets there (IE you can cross-compile your favorite Scheme interpreter, but it won't have a GUI) but it means you can DO MORE than you can in the closed-source, somewhat limiting PalmOS, at least as far as geekish activities are concerned.

    For general palmtop use, you're probably right. Someone would need to go to a lot of trouble to make Linux on a palmtop run as smoothly as PalmOS, and it would be a little more chaotic a system without the common database format and such.

    My PalmOS Projects are on http://www.xnot.com/tetsujin/
    ---GEC
  • Why is it that poor Leonardo has to put up with so many products named after him? Every marketing department for a computer product has at one time or another hit upon this "great new" idea for a name. Exactly what does DaVinci have to do with a Linux hand-held? You can bet that it's graphics capabilities aren't going to up to the old masters...
  • With this, I gotta say, damn straight... PalmOS is useful because the user doesn't have to bother with anything too complicated. It's easy, it's quick, and it works. Excellent for any geek (or non-geek, for that matter) who wants a handy item to keep track of all their assorted thoughts and plans.

    So is Linux on a PDA useful? Yes. Here's why.

    Consider the TRGPro. It's a Palm IIIx with 8MB of memory and a CompactFlash slot. It was mainly designed for corporations and such that had a specific need for such a slot on a small PDA-type device. Now anybody who has a specific need for one of these is probably gonna need to write software for it (CF features are not integrated into PalmOS at this point) - particularly if they have one specific role (IE inventory tracking with barcodes, etc.) in mind for it. They can use PalmOS for that, and everything's fine and dandy. Or, since they're using the devices internally, they might find it worthwhile to run Linux, and code their application on top of that. (Advantages would be the ability to tweak the OS, better networking support, multitasking, etc.) - in that particular case, some kinda company using the devices internally and for their own purposes, and writing their own software, having Linux available might be useful.

    Then there's pure geek appeal - the ability to hack the system to make it do what you want. PalmOS is limited and legally bound up in this regard. ucLinux could potentially be quite a bit better - the obvious downside is that you lose the convenience of running it as a PDA - and if you don't manage the system right, it'll no longer have its famed long battery life, won't be handy for taking notes, etc. For those of us who mainly wanted a PDA to be able to hack on it anyway, that could be worthwhile - but I think for the most part it's just as well to wait for LinuxCE before trying to do that sort of thing.

    ---GEC

  • My HTML postings have never been garbled like that before. Thanks Jan. Wish I knew what I did wrong. Anyway, I thought it was worth sharing. I would love to have a PADD with native Linux support. DaVinci, the hackers PADD (note: I hate PDA, I think the acronym should reflect the Star Trek origins).
  • Sure, it's offtopic, but it's funny. Somebody toss this guy some points...
  • I have a few questions. First, is there any way at all to hack a WinCE palm device (i.e. Cassiopeia) to run UNIX/Linux? Has this ever been done? From what I've read in this thread, it isn't likely to be possible, but in that case, is there any way to get a WinCE device to interface with my computer that runs Linux? I got a Casio Cassiopeia for Christmas, and I like it a lot, but it irritates me that I have to boot to my Windows partition whenever I want to interface the two. This is pretty much the only reason I keep my Windows partition around anymore.

    My next question is about the general distaste for WinCE that I've noticed here and there. I'm a Linux freak, and I dislike almost everything about Windows, which irritates me to no end. But given that, I don't see what the big fuss is about WinCE. Why is it so bad? I'm totally happy with my PDA despite the fact that it runs WinCE (although I have never used a Palm Pilot, so I can't compare the two OSes). Can anyone give me some insight about this?

    Thanks in advance.
  • if any of you have actually used the DaVinci then you would not be so excited about this annoucement - the davinci is the worst pda ever made..... take the batteries and it will use all the data! and it freezes up about 10 times an hour - and the only way to unfreeze it is the reset button which conviniently erases memory
  • Regarding your first question, there is a project called LinuxCE [linuxce.org] that aims to port Linux to CE machines. I have absolutely no experience, ties, or know-how about the project; however, given that there are a few different CPU's used in CE devices, development may be taking longer for your particular device.

    Try this [the-gadgeteer.com] to connect a CE device to a Linux box. It works through a PPP connection.

    As far as the fuss over WinCE, there are a few explanations. Some people just don't like any Microsoft software, period, and refuse to buy it on principle. However, on many devices (yours being an exception) Windows CE is very slow and complicated. Things like memory allocation and task management allow for more powerful programs, but also can make things unnecessarily complicated for Joe End-User who wants a no-nonsense way to synchronize his personal data. I've owned a PalmPilot since early 1997, and it's a great machine. Sure, it doesn't have all the whizbang features of many CE devices, but it runs a wealth of software and provides ultra-quick (no hourglass, ever) access to all personal data. My dad, who's one of the biggest technophobes I know, even bought one and is impressed with the feature set and the simplicity. He bought a cradle for his secretary, who takes messages and puts information into the Palm Desktop software on her computer. When he gets back from a meeting, all he has to do is synchronize his Palm with his secretary's computer and all of the data on both ends is made up-to-date. It's the so-called "Zen of Palm" that has sold so many units so far, and it's the reason why Palm Computing has held back on cramming every feature possible into every single organizer.

    Hope this helps.

  • they have very crappy support making anything

    they make totally useless if something goes

    wrong !?!?

  • Re:Why? (Score:1)

    by SEE (7681)
    Hey, don't expect me to disagree -- I still use Windows 98, not Linux, on my desktop.

    What it does mean is that Linux on PDA has some advantages that PalmOS does not. Those advantages constitue an answer to "why Linux on a PDA?", even if they do not constitute an answer to "why should I use Linux on my PDA?"

When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked if I had any firearms with me. I said, "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright