ROTC-Like Program for Nerds 200
ThatGuyAZ writes "President Clinton announced this morning that he's proposing to put $91 Million into supporting the college educations of computer science students.
I'm wondering how much this might be in response to criticism that too many foreigners were in sensitive positions during the Y2K bug-fix stage. But that's just my guess..."
not that much... (Score:1)
TomG
Now he does it (Score:1)
Chinese given first mention (Score:1)
protecting cyberspace (Score:2)
Foreign nationals in critical positions? (Score:2)
Back ontopic...
The only thing I can see coming out of this 'grant' is more MCSE's, BS's, and AS's without a clue. All the marginally intelligent CS/IT/IS hopefuls are near-automatically guaranteed admission to college or employment on their merit alone; Do we really need to hand out CS scholarships to people that would not normally pursue it if not for the extra $?
Y2K Criticism (Score:1)
I think maybe the reason we "hired out" much of the Y2K work, is simply because there's a lot of technical people that didn't WANT to work on Y2K issues. We are already doing things that are probably a lot more fun. Just my personal opinion, though.
Don't get too excited... (Score:1)
Mike
Selecting students might be a problem though... (Score:1)
To little, to late . .the 20 year fix. (Score:4)
The problem is in education, and education starts early.
These same funds would be better spent on the younger grades. If this spending was maintained for 20 years, The entire nation would be more educated on CS (and also well stocked with secutiry experts) and how use and apply what they've learned.
_________________________
Re:Grr! (Score:1)
mcrandello@my-deja.com
rschaar{at}pegasus.cc.ucf.edu if it's important.
A question (Score:1)
Re:Grr! (Score:1)
Is he high? (Score:2)
Ok, wouldn't it be simpler to take that 91 million and use it to hire US citizens away from the private sector?
Oh wait, that would provide instant results instead of dissappointing results during the next guy's term.
--Shoeboy
Good news, but not in the right direction (Score:1)
Well, from what I gather, we aren't suffering from people who know security. We are suffering from managers and leaders who won't do anything to fix known holes in security.
This wouldn't be a bad idea, but coming from President Clipper Chip, it is a little ominous. If he's so intent on improving education, why doesn't he do something where we really need it-- at elementary and high schools. Hard to major in CS when you can't read or do simple math. He keeps caving in to the teachers unions instead of doing something productive.
What a splendid idea! (Score:5)
It has all the qualities that suit a hackor best:
*rigid command hierarchy
*formalized attire
*shitty pay
*no respect from the public
*9-5 workday
*guns! (thrown in for ESR, I'm guessing - that clever clinton!)
And on top of all this, you get to work against your ideals by squashing online insurgency! Wonderful! Where can I sign up?
-konstant
Yes! We are all individuals! I'm not!
initial image (Score:5)
Useful but flawed. (Score:1)
In short I like the money for school, but if the government wants talent in their ranks, pump up those salary numbers. The best are worth more than $30,000 a year... Also, the government should stop scaring our youth. I don't know how they do it, but they do..
Mike
Re:Foreign nationals in critical positions? (Score:1)
The fact that few college students choose a computer career is very likely NOT to to difficulty paying for it.
not that much...but enough (Score:2)
Offten, these kinds of programs only pay for thinks like books and tuition, not room and board. so the actual number of people who can be funded is higher, probably arround 600+. And since not everyone is going to places that cost 30K a year. Some may be going to good public CS schools like U of MD or IL, the actual number of students benifiting from the money would be clooser to a thousand.
a pretty good number
-Mateorabi
Perspective (Score:1)
'Have to work for the govornment' vs.
'Guaranteed a job for ~5 years after you graduate'
not to mention job experience that emplyoers will love after your'e done.
Re:not that much... (Score:1)
Re:Grr! (Score:1)
You may define a new word for yourself. I am not going to.
Kaa
In a realated matter... (Score:1)
ROTC initial impression (Score:5)
More funding to computer literacy can do potential good.
// "paranoia"
I remember when the Feds were really obsessed with the "crackers" (literally pirate groups that crack copy protection of software and warez them out) and did these huge and invasive crackdowns that led to the Steve Jackson raiding controversy.
And that small children (I was one of them) were offered cash per person that they would squeal on who is such a cracker. (FYI, I didn't turn anyone in.
Not that this is (or is it?) Clinton's idea.
I don't want to see a "Big Brother" state of teenage computer coders being financially encouraged to turn in and monitor their fellow coders (most of them innocent).
Much of coding is learning from each other and sharing information and understanding. This involves a lot of trust and friendship.
I would hate to see government actions accidentally harming this trust, or the programming community.
P.S. It is not if you are legal what are you afraid of? Government officials/FBI sometimes appear to be ignorant of technology issues, and paranoid of things they don't understand, and many innocent (but suspicious appearing) young children can be harmed by this.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
Re:Foreign nationals in critical positions? (Score:2)
Anyone else smell 'Northern Exposure'?
Some Clinton Insight (Score:2)
I think this fund is motivated by his views on youth in America - wanting to encourage the next generation to get involved in a very lucrative field, and not some conspiracy theory. Just my 2 cents.
Not me, but hey, go for it... (Score:1)
I don't hesitate at all to say that many, possibly bordering on most, computer science graduates from prominent Universities could benefit from a few years at DeVry to learn actual skills complimenting their theoretical skills memorized from 4 years of generally shoddy teaching and textbooks with concepts and methods that were old 5 years ago... This isn't a knock on students/teachers in general, just a personal observation based on the type of work I had to do on class projects, and the number of times us top students had to cover for less-motivated/less-skilled students in our groups, who were in the majority.
So, let Clinton spend his $91M. Just playing the odds, the vast majority of takers he'll get will be people qualified to work Help Desk, write script widgies, or just generally be in significant need of more training before they'll be useful. The top students who know they can make more money in the private sector, can get more money in scholarships anyhow, and cringe at the thought of working for the Fed, probably won't be any more likely to take this than they would the already existing ROTC money that promises the same type of work after college in the military.
Re:not that much... (Score:1)
Re:Please, no more CS geeks! (Score:2)
Start with building blocks in electronics with a BSEE, where you will build your computer, first in simple sections from latches and logic gates, to real wire wrapped monsters, complete with 8 bit bus and NTSC video. Write the software in assembly and make a crude interface to control simple devices like stepper motors making something such as an electronic bartender.
I felt it was more fun starting from scratch with a new computer and having the intimate knowledge how to make it tick.
I disagree with the submitter... (Score:1)
There will never be enough people (Score:4)
60% dropped out after the first semester.
There were 15 people graduated from the department (including me).
This was not a particularly hard program (there wasn't a lot of math, which frightens some people off). It's just that most people can't hack the program (pun intended).
Computer science was one of the smallest departments too. Why? Well, we may be revered by business, who pay us good salaries to do relatively little work (compared to, say, a bricklayer) because we are in such demand. But do you know what the average high school student's impression (especially a girl) of a computer programmer/engineer/etc. is? Nerd. Dweeb. Egghead. They don't want to be perceived as such, so they pursue other fields that don't have that stigma attached to them. They can take their philosophy, psychology, etc. courses and earn the degrees that will allow them to flip my burgers for the rest of their lives.
Enrollment is on the rise, but people are just beginning to overlook the usual social stigma of being a computer programmer and see that it is not like that and that they can make a lot of money doing it. It's sad--there are student in the program not for the love of doing it, but for the eventual cash.
And that, my friends, is why we will always have a job, even in the toughest recession. Watch the psychology students starve, 600 fighting for one sales position at J.C. Penney's, while we will have our pick of the jobs.
Re:Grr! (Score:1)
Re:Please, no more CS geeks! (Score:1)
Buncha dumb question answerers, twinky in da beard wearers, stinky couches!
Re:not that much... (Score:2)
That is a pretty big assumption. Given how the government usually works, I'd be surprised if even half that amount actually went to students, the other half would likely disappear into the black hole of Washington beaurocratic overhead and administrative overhead.
Neat. (Score:3)
In short, is Clinton wittingly or unwittingly loading people into a channel that Microsoft has surreptitiously bought outright? Maybe it would be better if computer education got _less_ money so people would be forced to think about theory and write their own stuff instead of taking how-to courses on commercial products. The world doesn't start and end with programmers- huge percentages of the computer courses of the world are really "Using Microsoft Works" and the like. Do we want that to become federally subsidized?
Bad Idea (Score:2)
he will propose on Feb. 7, will request $91 million from Congress for computer security as part of an overall $2 billion budget "to meet our security challenges."
91 million? This seems like an awful lot of money for a program like this. Not that it isn't important, but for a "start up" it sure seems like much of this will be dedicated to administrative overhead and not to paying the "consultants"
"I will continue to work equally hard to uphold the privacy rights of the American people as well as the proprietary rights of American businesses," he said.
His previous decisions and policy on privacy rights blows chucks, I hope whatever he introduces for business proprietary, and intellectual property rights is solid. Now there is way too much confusion, law suits, etc.
The scholarship program would be modeled after the military ROTC program, aides said. College students would receive education subsidies to develop computer-security skills if they agree to work for the government after graduation.
Lets see here. If I were a computer science major or some flavor of, and was looking for opportunities upon leaving school, what would I do?
1. Take a GS 4 job with uncle Sam and make 30K on the high end, or
2. Take a job in the private sector making substantially more than 30K and enjoy the flexibility that comes with it.
Re:Please, no more CS geeks! (Score:1)
And for what it's worth, I agree with the AC that started this... CS people do have a nasty habit of not being well rounded at all. It's sad to know that so many people don't recognize that big glowing ball in the sky anymore...
--
Information and clarification (Score:4)
There is also mention of setting up "meaningful" internship programs for college and promising high school students (I noticed a comment somewhere about the need to start the process earlier in a childs academic career). Please remember that this is a proposal, no details have been made public (i.e. eligible schools, amounts of scholarship, years of service required, etc.). I think this is an admiriable idea, and we should support efforts like these. If you have strong feelings regarding the implementation of this plan, WRITE YOUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES!!!!!
For those of you outside the United States, if you think this plan would help out technology in your country, WRITE YOUR REPRESENTATIVES. For those of you living where your views will not be heard by the powers that be, MOVE/SEEK ASYLUM!!!!
-la
Re:Grr! (Score:1)
Just wait a few more years, then get loud and "reclaim" it.
Hey, it worked for "queer."
Re:Is he high? (Score:1)
Ok, wouldn't it be simpler to take that 91 million and use it to hire US citizens away from the private sector?
Oh wait, that would provide instant results instead of dissappointing results during the next guy's term.
Well, I kinda agree with you, but on the other hand I think it's a good idea to get more people into a computer science degree program, type-of-thing..
On an unrelated note, why is it that no AC ever wants to see ME naked and petrified?
Well, if you insist... SH03B0Y N4K3D 4ND P3TR1F13D! (my hax0r speek is not quite what it used to be)
:-)
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Re:There will never be enough people (Score:1)
What geeks want to do ... (Score:1)
Just another fine Clintoon policy ...
Re:protecting cyberspace (Score:1)
Defend and fight in cyberspace? You can't tell me that that doesn't sound nauseatingly Hollywood. Work it into ninety minutes and shop it around.
Who knows? It might be better than "The Net"...
/.'ers missing the point? (Score:2)
The government is finally realizing the importance of computer security. It is the infrastructure of the US now and needs protection. In response to this, they're going to recruit, and more than likely also train CS students on the field of information security.
Hey, if you're already in school, then stop complaining, it wasn't meant for you. For those who wouldn't get to college otherwise, spending 3 years in a government job getting 1/2 of what you wouldn't have had at all otherwise sounds damn good.
--
How do you keep an idiot in suspense?
Tell him the next version of Windows will be faster, more reliable, and easier to use!
Re:Please, no more CS geeks! (Score:1)
Re:ROTC initial impression (Score:2)
Much of coding is learning from each other and sharing information and understanding. This involves a lot of trust and friendship.
I would hate to see government actions accidentally harming this trust, or the programming community.
Well, it doesn't really look like that type of a program..
First off, forget any mention of ROTC. That only leads one to think of the "military", which is not what they're getting at. The only similarity to ROTC, AFAICS, is "we give you money now, you work for us later".
Mainly the program sounds like it's targeted at getting more people into the computer security field.
Computer security isn't primarily about "turning in your fellow coders"... It's mainly about preventing your fellow coders from being able to do anything worth turning them in for. The government may not realize that (I'm sure they don't in fact), but the people getting these jobs and money will.
P.S. It is not if you are legal what are you afraid of? Government officials/FBI sometimes appear to be ignorant of technology issues, and paranoid of things they don't understand, and many innocent (but suspicious appearing) young children can be harmed by this.
I totally agree. That's why this program is good, in that it helps to educate people to do this type of thing correctly. The government doesn't "need to know" these things, but the people who work for the government and implement the policies do.
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Re:protecting cyberspace (Score:1)
And, don't read me wrong - I'm not proposing a Cyberspace Force. But look how hard/how far we pushed Y2K readiness. Don't you think we could take information warfare a lot futher?
Re:Will we get paied less (Score:1)
Re: Clueless CS students. (Score:1)
But given all the people who will apply to this program, I seriously doubt that those people will get into the programs. You are more likely to get a group of people who are very intelegent and know what they are doing, who either can't afford the tuition, or like the idea of having the federal govornment pay for their education. These are the people who will most likely be selected. And with limited positions, the govornment can be choosy.
Also, you may be getting paid ~30K extra a year for the few years that someone else is working for the govt', but you are also paying of ~30K a year for a few years in loans (or equivalent, spread out over more years,) unless your parents were wealthy or you went to a chaper school.
Re:Foreign nationals in critical positions? (Score:1)
That is true. However, don't forget to consider those students who otherwise might not go to college at all.
I have a brother-in-law who is 16 yrs old. He loves computers, is starting to learn programming, and has a very bright mind. But on his fathers income, they can't even afford a good public university. If he makes it to college at all, it will be a local community college or through grants and scholarships. And scholarships are harder to get if you are single white male unless you score phenomenally high on your ACT/SAT. This could be an excellent chance for him to break out of the sub-standard existance his family currently lives in.
Yes, he would have to work for the government, but for only 4-5 years probably (4 years is the current ROTC time period) and at 26, with 4 years of experience, he could get one hell of a nice private sector job.
Snow Crash (Score:2)
I think I'd rather be tens of thousands in the hole when i get out of college than be committed to a job that might suck.
--Jack
Re:What a splendid idea! (Score:4)
This is my keyboard. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My keyboard is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my keyboard is useless. Without my keyboard, I am useless . . .
Re:There will never be enough people (Score:1)
Re:Grr! (Score:2)
Re:To little, to late . .the 20 year fix. (Score:1)
Computer science, like spelling and grammar, makes a much greater impression when learned while young. Neglecting it can result in adults who apparently have no clue what they are or should be doing and as a result give the impression of being ignorant and uneducated.
This is a major contributing factor to the decline of American society in whatever century this is.
Re:Foreign nationals in critical positions? (Score:2)
Pri/Sec schools need to grade/hold back/teach. (Score:1)
Re:What a splendid idea! (Score:2)
Badly constructed future by 1 entity worse than an (Score:1)
Re:FIRST POST (Score:1)
I'd tip my hat, but I don't own one.
Please, more CS geeks! (Score:2)
I totally disagree with that. I've seen the exact opposite.
There are way too many engineers out there who don't understand proper coding skills (because all they learned in school was Fortran) well enough to be able to create a bug-free system. The demand for programmers is huge, and these people are getting these jobs, because they have some programming experience, when all they really know how to do is sauder a board together.
Now this is not universal. Some of the brightest guys I know are EE geeks. But the vast majority of people with an EE degree don't want to code, and yet that's the majority of the jobs out there for EE's. If you want to code, go CS as you'll learn a lot more theory, which is worth it in the long run. The EE stuff you may need to know is not hard to pick up, whereas it can be hard to pick up coding when all you know is fortran.
Computer Engineering is a good idea, but poorly implemented at a lot of schools. It's basically a cross between EE and CS, but not getting into any depth on either one. If you're undecided between the two, then it may be worth looking at. But the CpE's I know (admittedly very few) couldn't program their way out of a paper bag. One guy I know who graduated with a 3.5+ average in CpE (he had a 1.5- overall) is also one of the stupidest people I have ever met in my entire life. He would be one of those people who couldn't understand which way to plug in the power cord.
CS people do have a nasty habit of not being well rounded at all.
I admit this is true to a certain extent, at least upon graduation. But you could say this about most majors, IMNSHO. The thing that provides a person well-roundedness is job experience.
Well, that's just my take on the subject..
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Nothing new (Score:1)
Re:protecting cyberspace (Score:1)
It's been done. It's called "The Matrix".
Graduate Degree (Score:1)
I admit this is a bit off topic but...
I have just completed my undergraduate degree in something other than CS (social psychology and architecture). Like many of my geek friends I got tired of paying for a CS education that was either taught by a really old guy or an MS prostitue. Had I intended to get a CS degree I wouldn't have chosen the college I attended but who knows what they are doing when they are 18 anyway? Though I gleaned alot of valuable information from my minor in CS (data structures and OO come to mind) I am having problems locating a good masters program that does not require an undergrad degree in CS. I am willing to make up a few classes to bring me up to speed, I just don't want to go to college for another 5 years (there's too much money out here in the 'real world'). State schools are prefered...
Thanks,
DS
Re:Foreign nationals in critical positions? (Score:2)
The real problem - lack of OS vendor liability (Score:2)
Yes, it will add a liability cost to every OS purchase. OS vendors would need liability reserves and reinsurance. So? That's normal practice in other industries. The cost might be less than people spend on anti-virus programs.
It's time for computing to grow up. This is a necessary step, and a normal one in the progress of an industry. Railroads were forced to accept liability for their actions early in this century; auto companies were forced into it in the 1960s and 1970s. Computing is now pervasive enough it's time for computing to accept its responsibilities.
I have some concrete proposals circulating for peer review in this area, and I'll have more to say about that in future.
Re:Please, no more CS geeks! (Score:1)
But then, I'm CSE, not CS, so I might be expected to know.
Re:Grr! (Score:1)
I really don't care if "hacker" is used "correctly," but that's supposedly the "correct" meaning.
It is Better than News (Score:2)
It is worth reflecting on the fact that an Internet military power can be gained for extremely small amounts of money by countries that would otherwise not be able to attack/disrupt the more conventional military powers.
So now we have:
- The US military talking about it in a warfare sense [http://www.wired.com/news/p olitics/0,1283,33443,00.html [wired.com]]
- The US President talking about it a civil corps sense.
- And the NSA continuing to hoard its mindshare, feeds, and databases, in the spy sense.
Of course we also have the "Techies Day" [http://www.techiesday.com/ 600_press/620_clips/index.html [techiesday.com]] stuff going on in parallel with Gore touting the need to US techies and pointing out the extreme techie shortage.My feeling is that all of this is good. It is better than just the news itself. It is very good that the US government has the foresight (gasp) in addressing these current and future problems.
Re:Please, more CS geeks! (Score:1)
Anyways, I too have seen many electronics graduates who were clueless when it comes to programming. I have also seen many bright ones that program circles around anyone I can think of. I have also seen the same for CS people too.
The path you choose to take in school does not make you an intelligent person.
Much more can be gained from real-world job experience, than can ever be gained in school. This is not to say that school is a waste of time either. Education is meant to prepare you for the job world, and should be treated as such, and nothing more.
As well, I haven't found it written anywhere, where it's said that you stop learning once you graduate. Unfortunately, there are people in the world that seem to live this philosophy, which is quite sad. I believe that most, if not all, of the "clueless" CS or ET people in the world, are probably people that have chosen to live this way.
Re:The real problem - lack of OS vendor liability (Score:1)
Another bad idea from Clinton. (Score:3)
Firstly, you can bet that the majority of that 91 million is NOT going into scholarships. The 91 million pays for the entire set of programs being set up, the scholarships are just being trotted out as the poster boy.
Secondly, how exactly is it good to be doling out money for scholarships? Yes, it's nice to be giving bright-eyed young students money for college, but remember that the money that's being given away was collected from the other bright-eyed young students who are having to work their way through school. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
Thirdly, the new Clinton program includes the establishment of a new federal beaurocracy that, as usual, will be accountable to NOONE. Like, say, OSHA, or the EPA, agencies who are not directly accountable to the voting public but whose decisions carry the force of law. This is a Bad Thing.
Lastly, it doesn't even address the major problem of technical education in the US, which is that the majority of students that enroll in technical majors get weeded out DELIBERATELY by the universities and colleges that are getting paid to teach them. If only 80% of the people who went into those program graduated from them, we'd double the supply of high-tech workers and researchers immediately! It infuriates me that the attitude (at Penn State, at least) is that "oh, well, 60% will drop out or become business majors, nothing we can do." That should be a mark of failure for the university! An airline which only delivered 40% of its passengers to the destination they desired would be out of business damn fast, let me tell you.
What would I do make the situation better? I'd make the funding given out to colleges and universities dependent on the percentage of people who graduate from the majors of their choice (ignoring voluntary changes of major, and maybe not even then if the voluntary changes aren't really voluntary). Make the institutions of learning have to KEEP their students to earn their suppers!
Polemically yours,
Jon Acheson
Re:Grr! (Score:1)
Re:Grr! (Score:2)
Let me say right now that I have never put cheese on a poor white boy. Besides, I thought a "cracker" was someone who partakes of crack cocaine.
"Una piccola canzone, un piccolo ballo, poco seltzer giù i vostri pantaloni."
Re:Foreign nationals in critical positions? (Score:1)
Re:Please, more CS geeks! (Score:1)
I will say that if one major is more likely to understand the other better, it's EE/CpE. Not only do we have to design hardware, but we also have to code for it. The EE studies more coding practices than a CS student studies hardware design. It is the nature of the profession to require both.
But, it doesn't mean that an EE is a great programmer. My passion is hardware, and writing software gets very tedious for me if it's large. I have some CS friends who often know more about a lot of hardware than I do. I even know a CS major that wired his yard with a variety of colored lights, built a hardware interface, wrote a PERL back end, and put up a web page where you can change the color of the xmas lights at his house from the his web page. The opposite example is my roommate, who is an EE, writes code for an airport in his spare time, and probably knows 20 different processors' assembly language (incidentally, he is mostly self-taught, and is getting his degree as a mostly formal matter...I hate him for knowing so much already).
The biggest issue I have is with the following statement: "The EE stuff you may need to know is not hard to pick up, whereas it can be hard to pick up coding when all you know is fortran."
Suddenly, you seem like an ignorant, self-agrandizing jerk. Do you really think so highly of CS and intend to dismiss EE out of hand like that? EE stuff is easy to pick up? Not quite. So what if you know a little about Ohm and Kirchoff and even a little RLC or gate logic? Beyond that, EE gets VERY tough. That's why mostly only those with a true passion for it manage to graduate.
As for programming, what does knowing FORTRAN have to do with whether or not you are any good? Plenty of good code was written in FORTRAN... that's why it's been around for so long. Are you so big a tool that you don't recognize that once you learn good programming methodology, the tools you use (i.e. language) are irrelevant? The first time I took a formal language class, it was taught in PASCAL, a useless language. However, once I learned good structured programming techniques, I was able to pick up FORTRAN, C, and PERL with little to no difficulty. You can hardly say the same for someone who understands basic network theory (electrical network, BTW) and is trying to learn about TTL or systems/signal representation.
Now it's time for me to be a pedantic ass:
Solder. Soldering iron.
Have a nice day.
Re:Grr! (Score:2)
Re:No Microsoft in my CS (Score:1)
All the upperclass CS classes are taught on Unix machines, with a few lower ones taught on PC's with the Borland (Inprise?) family of compilers, because they are cheap and the hardware is already in all of the IT labs.
It's my impression that Clinton is only funding actual CS students, not those taking word processing and spreadsheet courses.
Step 1 :- Stop using Microshit (Score:1)
As for the training, we already provide it. So just send some of your geekettes to Britain to train.
More CS students, but same number of good students (Score:4)
I was talking about this with one of my undergraduate professors. He said that CS class sizes have grown a lot over the past decade. With a larger population of CS students, you would expect more good students, but he saw that the number of really good CS students was constant.
Help from the Industry (Score:1)
What the younger generations need is some sort of push by the people who are actually doing the coding out there now. I'm sure a lot of the youth of this country, if given the proper direction, would become much more valuable to our country and keep us ahead of the status quo. So, all you guys (and gals) out there programming at places like Red Hat, MS, id, Electronic Arts, etc...let's band together to show kids what coding is really all about! Thanks.
Re:protecting cyberspace (Score:1)
Think about how courts are administered over districts with physical/geographical boundaries. It's not always easy to map something critical happening on a nationwide network to a specific jurisdiction. So imagine solving that by creating the District of Cyberspace.
D.C., eh?
And that's pretty much the same difficulty with taxing internet commerce. And I haven't heard anyone with a coherent plan for dealing with that, either. Square pegs, round holes. Everyone's just really good at slamming everyone else's dumb ideas... the creativity to come up with something so crazy that it just might work doesn't seem to be anywhere.
I think that we could take information warfare to some fairly startling levels. And the issue of responsibility on the part of the companies who leave these security holes that one could drive a proverbial Mack truck through is a starting place in dealing with the potential problem, and the basic kernel of the idea of "let's give people an incentive to come help us figure this out" is another. The problem with it is, unsurprisingly, the implementation. Which to some extent stems from the fact that there is not a wholehearted commitment to it. Which to some extent stems from the fact that there haven't really been many clearly defined objectives/goals/problems. There are scenarios, and there are known security flaws, but as far as I can tell no one actually knows what they want to do, and there's some apprehension about throwing money into a void.
Y2K readiness got pushed the way it did because there was a definite goal, there was a definite deadline, and there were some pretty convincing projections about what might happen if this goal wasn't reached. If we knew that on, say, May 23rd, 2002 there would be a major "cyberattack" on the U.S. government, things might be different. The commitment might be there. But there really isn't a powerful incentive for most people to care right now.
Random thing I just heard: "Horse with No Name" is about heroin?
Re:There will never be enough people (Score:1)
Plenty of philosophy majors go on to work in the computer industry. Formal logic is obviously a key part of programming. Being able to view a problem from its various levels is also mighty helpful - how often do programmers get stuck viewing a problem on a code-based level, rather than on the level of the people they're working with (designers, writers, business people, etc.)
In short, neither I or my philosophy major friends will be flipping burgers for you, sir.
Re:To little, to late . .the 20 year fix. (Score:1)
It helps no one to say RTFD.
My english is certainly not perfect, and subject to correction. But if you are going to take the effort and time to correct someone, then you may as well take the extra step and point out the specific error, and what the correct wording would be.
Re:There will never be enough people (Score:2)
And how do you get good at something? Practice.
The few people who graduated didn't just sit at a computer, figure out a solution for a problem and then write the program because they had an assignment due. They, as do I, did and still do it on their spare time as a hobby. For me and for the other true geeks I know, computers and programming is an all-consuming passion. For example, I have been up until 2am the past two nights working with packet drivers and far calls to assembly routines in DOS from C. People say, 'DOS is deprecated, do something in Windows where you have the proper tools'. They shake their heads when I tell them that it's no fun that way.
This is the spirit that is lacking in 99% of the CS majors today.
Re:Neat. (Score:1)
However a lot of us were already using PCs so that may have made a difference. I don't know what I'd be doing for a living now if I had never been exposed to a PC.
It would be nice if for some of the more advanced public school cs classes (read: not keyboarding, not word processing) would offer ways to learn alternative (Anything But Microsoft) ways of doing things.
But I think the tech departments, in the current state of things, would have a hard time convincing the school administrators there's need for anything else. And I think it would be hard to convince the tech departments of most schools of the same thing.
Perhaps some of us who claim to be concerned could volunteer some time, or something.
The Few, The Proud, The Cyber Corps (Score:2)
I regret that I have but one rev to give to my country.
Re:What a splendid idea! (Score:1)
Exposure to foods other than pizza and Coke
Exposure to clothes other than jeans and t-shirts
Exposure to sunshine
Exercise
Lose 30 Lbs
Learn how to defend yourself
Re:To little, to late . .the 20 year fix. (Score:1)
Lets question our assumptions here, people. Why do we feel that the federal government should be involved at all. Why should the government spend this money? Can anyone answer that yes, given the current record of "success" of government programs? Do you really think this is going to have an effect on the quality or numbers of computer-savvy people in the country? Bottom line: I don't want to pay for this.
Why aren't there scholarships for CS-type programs? Oh, wait, there are. Why are CpE, CS, and EE programs so out of whack with what is needed in the real world? Because academia lacks a fundamental understanding of the pace of current technological development. There are many other ways to get to college and become a computer programmer or engineer. This is a totally and completely unnecessary expenditure.
Lets be honest here. The shortage of people to fill the necessary jobs is due to three reasons:
1)colleges don't prepare students for the tasks they will face in the job market because they are seriously behind the power curve in dealing with technology.
2)Competence in a computer-oriented field requires intelligence, dedication, people skills, good math skills, and a voracious appetite for learning. Most people can't or won't do it.
3)The above skills have to come from inside a person -- they come from discipline, integrity, and self-confidence. You can't teach that in school except in an indirect way, by example. And we all know how much our teachers are paid -- we get way more than we pay for, but not as much as we need. This limits the computer workforce to the people who have the guts to do it.
Throwing money at the problem does not work. Get real -- set up a scholarship yourself, or support someone who does, if this really bothers you. Quit automatically assuming that the government has the obligation to solve your problems.
Just think of the government solution as a bubble sort. :)
AetiusNSA is allready doing this...but is it nescessary? (Score:1)
I wonder though if it will have the result that Clinton hopes it will have. First there is a lag of at least 5 years before these kids have a Masters degree. (correct me if I am wrong, the American uni-system is sometimes a bit confusing) That doesn't make them experts on security yet. 6 or 7 years is a long time in Computer Science. Can he wait that long? Maybe the money should be invested in solutions on a shorter term. (Hire @stake)
Second: It is a fact that the Beta sciences are not as popular as the Alpha and Gamma sciences. I do not expect a sudden dramatic shift in the amount of people going for CS as a result of this.
Third: Though governments generally give you cool stuff to play with and are often willing to spent money on hardware, the pay usually sucks. So does the overall image of the government. This scheme doesn't give me the idea that this is going to change, therefore not many people in my opinion will go for it. It might just be better to invest in better wages.
Fourth (and then I will stop to rant): Is the threat really *that* big? Remember the Janes article on Cyberwarfare? I am not saying that security is not important, but I am wondering if the dangers are as high as some people try and make us belief
Re:I dunt undastand what ya meen by errors . . (Score:1)
my spilling and the grammar are realy best.
I like the microsoft.
Jello is good.
_________________________
to geek or not to geek (Score:1)
_____________
I'll bet / with my Net / I can get / those things yet.
Social Stigma (Score:1)
I agree. The generation that is in elementry school and middle school is growing up SURROUNDED by computers. The ridicule in that generation will be directed towards those who don't know how to turn on a computer rather than the computer programmers.
However, I do NOT beleive that Computer Scientists/Programmers will have the job security and availability that they enjoy now. I'm a sophomore at Berkeley, and when I get my EECS degree, companies will probably be falling over themselves to employ me. But the generation younger than me will have a much higher percentage of people interested in computers as a career, and I beleive the job market will become more competative 15 years from now when more students get EE/CS degrees or the equivalent from places like devry.
I think the most valuable skill to have for the next 50 years will be the ability to quickly learn new technology. Those who don't have the ability to learn quickly will run into a lot of trouble in the next couple decades.
NSA Undergraduate Training Program (Score:2)
Check out the info page at http://www.nsa.gov:8080/programs/emp loy/utp.html [nsa.gov]
Pretty creepy stuff...
Re:Please, more CS geeks! (Score:2)
Well, excuse me for generalizing then.
The point I wanted to make, but couldn't because I hate typing long annoying things:
If you're going into the software world, you don't need to know as much about EE as a EE major will teach you. Since most every EE person I know graduated and then got a mostly programming job, I feel that learning the majority of that stuff was a waste of time in the immediate future. Perhaps in the long term they'll pick it up again.
Advanced EE Stuff is NOT easy to learn. EE Stuff that you'll most likely need to know is a lot simpler.
Honestly, if everyone had the time I'd say do both as a double major. Learning is a never-ending process.
As for programming, what does knowing FORTRAN have to do with whether or not you are any good? Plenty of good code was written in FORTRAN... that's why it's been around for so long. Are you so big a tool that you don't recognize that once you learn good programming methodology, the tools you use (i.e. language) are irrelevant?
No, but the method in which you learn it is extremely relevant. Fortran classes (in case you've never taken one) at most universities do NOT teach you programming. They teach you Fortran. There's a world of difference between those two methods.
A person who learns a language knows that language and _may_ be able to learn others. A person who learns _programming_ and computer programming theory can learn _any_ language relatively quickly and easily. Of course, this depends on the individual. Your mileage may vary, etc, etc...
The first time I took a formal language class, it was taught in PASCAL, a useless language. However, once I learned good structured programming techniques, I was able to pick up FORTRAN, C, and PERL with little to no difficulty.
Exactly my point. I hate to say "me too" but I learned my programming exactly the same way (except I also learned C64 basic way back when I was a kid).
The people I've known to take the engineering programming classes (fortran) did not learn to program. They learned to make some fortran code that worked, but not by learning structures, not by learning software methodology. They learned to pass that class. That's it.
Everything I say is tainted by what I see, what I hear. Take it in that context. If you like, preface "In my experience," to each one of my sentences.
I admit, EE is some crazy hard shit.. One of my friends took an antenna class once, and that book had me completely baffled. However, he ended up working in the computer networking field, mainly doing programming. Why? Because those were the people hiring EE majors. Not to say that later in life that stuff won't be useful, because it will. All knowledge is good. But we're talking about preparation for "the real world" here. If you're a programmer, that hardcore EE stuff is most likely not needed.
Now it's time for me to be a pedantic ass:
Solder. Soldering iron.
You pedantic bastard!
Actually, I spotted that myself, but had hit submit too fast. Very well, smack me in the back of the head with a dictionary.
---
Research might help; more undergrads won't (Score:2)
I sometimes think about attacking the security problem by creating red teams that deliberately, systematically damage sites with bad security. Advantages: we get a better market for security products. A particular vulnerability can be exposed gradually over time, instead of exploited everywhere at once by a real adversary. Disadvantages: it's a nutty idea.
Re:Pri/Sec schools need to grade/hold back/teach. (Score:2)
Your description of modern schooling as 8-3 daycare is spot on. What's the fucking use of it at all? The schools aren't run for the parent or the children any more, they're run to satisfy the "teaching" staff's political agenda.
Yet another sign of the decline of Western civilisation.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Life of an ROTC graduate in CS (Score:2)
Hey! Let's Do Some Math... (Score:2)
Okay--so Mr. Clinton wants to revitalize American technology by providing a new generation of workers with the skills for the new millennium (I didn't hear it, I didn't read it, but I somehow just know he said it). So he's proposing $91 million bucks to achieve this. To paraphrase a certain sports announcer:
Let's go to the adding machine tape!
We can play with this math all we want: we might see this program provide a free four-year ride to a thousand students. Or the program might provide a $1400 stipend--once--to 39,000 Computer Science majors. But anyway you slice it, this doesn't amount to much more than a trivial gesture. If the nation has a "shortage" of 250,000 programmers no stipend, whether 1400 bucks or fourteen thousand bucks, is going to solve that problem.
Above and beyond that--this is dumb. You don't want kids taking up programming "just for the money" anymore than you want to be treated by a doctor who is "just in it for the money." The whole point of the med school hazing process is to weed those guys out. A lot of kids think they'll make bucks programming--they're the ones that disappear. The programmers who last--and who are invaluable--do it because they love the challenge, they love to use their brains, and they love the constant learning process. And more often than not, the best programmers were NOT Computer Science majors. (Truth in hiring time: I generally view a Computer Science major as a negative on a resume. I would vastly rather see a liberal arts major, business, or engineering coupled with a CS minor or a distribution in programming.)
Bottom line: this is a facile political gesture, from a president who has turned the facile political gesture into an art form.
Re:Foreign nationals in critical positions? (Score:2)
Anyway, I ended up in my current position, which I would gladly do for less money, so I guess it worked out..