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Still More Evidence for Evolution
Posted by
michael
on Thu Feb 07, 2002 02:31 AM
from the theocratic-republic-of-kansas dept.
from the theocratic-republic-of-kansas dept.
Uche writes: "Biologists at the University of California, San Diego have uncovered the first genetic evidence that explains how large-scale alterations to body plans were accomplished during the early evolution of animals."
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Still More Evidence for Evolution
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Re:Evolution WILL happen (Score:4, Insightful)
We are already domesticated. A key indicator of domestication is neotany--retaining the characteristics of youth. The flatter human face with the bulging skull makes us look much more like babies, and also giver room for a larger brain. The human jaw is shrinking, and canines becoming much blunter than in ape. (Generally--mine look like a baboons, which is a real pain if I bite my lip)
"Intelligence creates material success, which is a prize factor for breeding."
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. People who are wealthier tend to have fewer children, later, than people who aren't. True, this is a cultural trend, and will probably reverse itself. Otherwise we'll end up in Kornbluth's world of the _Marching Morons_.
"Human beings will continue to become
I could be wrong, but I don't think people are evolving to become taller. I believe that all the increases in height (fairly recent, and much to rapid to be evolutionary) are due to better diet. This is an environmental change allowing a fuller expression of genetic potential for height, not a genetic evolutionary change tht will be passed down to our descendents.
The Evolution of Creation (Score:5, Interesting)
There are a few possible answers to this. If I felt contrary, I could say that the "Earth=round" was inserted into the Bible after the fact. Maybe it was a lucky guess. Perhaps it really was divine inspiration. The point is that it's not compelling evidence that it's divine inspiration. Oh, and evolution doesn't rely solely on chance. That's an extreme oversimplification, usually only used when one is trying to "straw-man" the theory.
> People are so gullable these days. Because some scientist somehere says something, everyone believes it, without question.
No argument here, although I'd extend it to anyone with a real or perceived claim to authority or expertise.
> How can you predict what happend some 12 billion years ago? The weather is bearly accurate to more than one day, and yet evolutionists claim they know what was in the earths atmosphere billions of years ago.
You have a skewed idea of the definition of "predict" if you think one needs to predict the past. The reason the weather long ago is better known than the weather tomorrow is that the long ago has already happened. Scientists can tell what the Earth's climate was like long ago by seeing the evidence of its effects. When meteorologists predict the weather, they're merely taking what they have and extrapolating educated guesses.
> When Charles Darwin came up with the theory of Evolution, not only did the world not believe it, but neither did he. As i see it, the theory of evolution was made up to create a substitute belief to creation.
Whether he believed in it or not is irrelevant to whether it's consistent with the evidence. And, as I see it, it was put forward as a theory to explain biological diversity in the Galapagos Islands.
> People dont want to believe that there is a being somwhere in the heavens that is superior to them, a being that created them and the universe. This being is able to create the universe, and all that is in it, from giant starts, to microscopic life in six days.
Based on the fact that 95% of the world believes in said higher power, I'd say that people do want to believe in a higher power.
> People dont understand how this is possible, and so they create a theory, which allows them to deceive themselves into thinking that they are the superior being. They dont want to have to submit to the one and only true God, they want to do their own thing, which is evil.
Apologies, but this is just nonsense. Firstly, nobody who follows the theory of the origin of the species thinks they they are the controlling factor in that origin, so your claims they they're thinking they are the superior being is incorrect. Second, "the one and only true God" is not science, it's religion, so it can't be applied to the theory of origins in any meaningful way.
> I'm not providing much scientific evidence here for creation, but, any critical person, should be able to see that the theory of evolution is only a THEORY.
You seem to imply that because it's a theory, that it's necessarily wrong. The theory of relativity is also considered a theory, but it has stood up to much experimentation. "Theory" means "not yet proven" but should not be extrapolated to mean incorrect. It's more appropriate to say that theories are incomplete.
> How can we, who dont even understand life, who cant create life in a controlled enviroment, claim that life came about by chance?
There are two points here. First, nobody on Earth can explain why gravitation works. Nobody knows the reason why massive bodies attract one another. To say, however, that this means we can't discuss gravitation in a meaningful way is just silly. We discuss gravity by examining its effects on our universe. We discuss evolution the same way.
Second, I don't personally know anybody who claims that life "came about by chance", and this is the classic straw man argument about evolutionary theory. All this statement demonstrates is that you haven't actually read or studied the theory, because your statement demonstrates gross misunderstanding of the mechanisms of evolution. I won't go into the gory details unless you wish me to do so, but suffice it to say you're badly misinterpreting evolutionary theory, and it ruins your argument.
> With all of our intelligence, we have not been able to create life in a lab, and this is with inteligent input. There was no intelligent input in the theory of evolution. Just chance.
Refer to my statements above about incomplete understanding, and about the "evolution=chance" argument. I will add here that not being able to create life in a lab has no bearing to this discussion, because it assumes that because we haven't done it yet, we never will, and because we don't understand it now, we never can. A mere one hundred years ago, nobody could build a heavier-than-air flying machine, or a computer, or a television, or any of a thousand other things. We learn. It's what we do best.
Virg
finally? proof of evolution? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Well done lads, collective pat on the back (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:You do live a sheltered life, don't you? (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole argument is stupid, anyhow. It's based on a mistaken belief that one must cling to a questionable interpretation of the Bible as a matter of faith. Has anyone noticed that only Creationists tie Evolution, Geology, and Atheism together? Those who research Evolution do not insist that one must be an atheist if one believes that evolution rather than recent creation is a better explanation for the development of life on Earth. Those who teach and research modern geology do not insist that one must be an atheist if one believes that geologic processes rather than recent creation is a better explanation for the current geology of Earth.
However, since Creationists fallaciously tie acceptance of modern geology and evolutionary theory to disbelief that God created the Earth, and therefore disbelief in God (i.e., atheism), it has become a matter of faith to oppose evolutionary theory and modern geology as a false, atheistic (and thus, probably diabolic) doctrine by any and all means. If you don't believe me, go read articles and web sites by Creationists that are targetted toward Christians, as opposed to the general public.
To my mind, it is all very pointless because there is no contradiction between evolution and God; who are they to say how God created the universe and life? How can they know that evolution and geological processes are not just more tools in God's toolbox? They can't know, and they who presume to know how God created the universe or to put limits on the methods God used in creation are both small-minded and arrogant beyond belief!
To my mind, the power and grandeur of God is elevated, and not diminished by evolution and geology. To achieve His unknown goals, He started out at least 15 billion years ago with the Big Bang, and designed the entire process of star formation, planet formation, geological processes, evolution, etc! That's a lot bigger than POOF! The Earth was wished into existance a mere 6000-8000 years ago, complete with fake fossils and fake geology.
I wonder if Creationists are afraid of the power and knowledge of the God who created evolution and the Big Bang; I wonder if they want to cut Him down to a size they can comprehend?
Re:You do live a sheltered life, don't you? (Score:5, Insightful)
However, the fact remains that many adherents to the Atheistic Faith (to say that, conclusively, there is no God takes just as much faith as the converse) seek to throw up Big Bang and Evolutionary arguments as proof of the non-existence of God.
I'm also of the opinion that adhering to the tenet that we are descended from Great Apes goes a long way towards reducing people's willingness to believe in the superiority of homo sapiens. I believe that God created us in His image (and the Bible says nothing of intermediary steps in the process) and so, to claim that there was an "open beta test" for hominids is fairly sacreligious, as it calls into question both God's intent and His competency as a Creator.
I'm a big fan of Don Behe's "irreducible complexity" theory (see Darwin's Black Book, ISBN: 0684834936 [amazon.com]), as it goes a long way towards highlighting the biochemical obstacles to macro-evolution).
Then again, you can always take the Douglass Adams tack: Creation itself is proof of a Divine Creator and since conclusive proof would obviate the need for Faith, Poof! He vanished in a puff of logic.
Man, I'm sorry he's (errrm, Adams, not God) dead. Would have been nice to see the 6th book in his 5-part trilogy completed before his death (instead of the old Tolkien-Unfinished-Works-style book that we'll be getting...)
Re:Well done lads, collective pat on the back (Score:5, Insightful)
Professors and teachers of evolution themselves admit that it is nothing more than a theory. Creationism is also, admitted by the professors of said doctrine, to also be a theory.
Creationism holds about as much water as a scientific theory as geocentrism does, i.e. NONE. If it weren't in the frickin Bible you nutbags wouldn't have any reason WHATSOEVER to think that the entire biological population was made bow-zap 4K years ago or so. Why? Because there is no physical evidence whatsoever to back it up! None!
Where are the dinosaurs in the Bible, my little buckaroo? You'd certainly figger that something as mind-bogglingly large as a brontosaurus might just be MENTIONED once or twice.
Oh yes, and your First Amendment rights stop right where my nose begins. I don't want MY kids being taught that religious claptrap, thanks very much. And I am, for the record, a parent. I don't want them begin taught that Xenu is a "viable alternative," or that we all sprouted from the forehead of Zeus, or WHATEVER creation myth you care to throw out there. Science, pure science, and damn be he who first cries "Hold! Too much!"
- Rev.Re:Well done lads, collective pat on the back (Score:5, Informative)
Regarding your First Amendment Arguement, you're totally wrong. You have the right to say you believe in Creationism and Evolution is rubbish. However, that right does not extend to forcing schools to teach your opinion. End of Story.
Finally, I would like to make it clear that I am a Christian and believe God is quite responsible for the creation of the Universe and mankind. However, I refuse to take 7 days literally and admire the fine tuning of a Universe which expands gracefully; a planet formed out of star bits to contain the ingredients for life; and the effectiveness of evolution. If you witnessed the Big Bang, what better description than "then there was light"? I digress. I would encourage you to accept scientists when they tell you their description of the world is kinda close to how it actually is. Then admire the brilliance of the universe that was Created. Huge, billions and billions of stars all created with an attention to detail that makes quantum phyisics a mess for us.
Enjoy the world and stop whining that science shows a description of creation targetted to a civilization 4000 years old as much as to modern man, might not be best taken literally.
Re:Well done lads, collective pat on the back (Score:5, Interesting)
I refer to people who would ban the teaching of evolution for religious reasons alone, and in the face of overwhelming evidence "nuts" yes. If there were overwhelming evidence against evolution, then the people who would ban the teaching of evolution would not be "nuts", but that is not the case.
Professors and teachers of evolution themselves admit that it is nothing more than a theory.
First of all, let me clear up this misconception you have about how the word "theory" is used in science. A theory in science is an idea that has been tested many times and its predictions have stood up to experimental results. Theories are generally accepted throughout the scientific community. What you are thinking of is a hypothesis, or an idea that makes testable, but as of yet unsufficiently tested, predictions.
Secondly, let me dispel the other myth you state in that sentence. Evolution is NOT just a theory. It is fact. The fact that the alelle frequency in a population changes over time has been observed time and time again. There have even been numerous observations of speciation (an invidual of one species creating offspring of another species). I point you to the great FAQ at talkorigins.org [talkorigins.org] for a list of the many examples of this.
What is commonly refered to as "The Theory of Evolution" is just a collection of ideas about how and why evolution happen, such as natural selection, punctuated equilibrium, etc. No serious scientist disputes the fact that evolution occurs, the only dispute is over how it occurs.
Creationism is also, admitted by the professors of said doctrine, to also be a theory.
Creationism is NOT a theory. It doesn't hold up in experiments testing its predictions. It is at best a highly improbably hypothesis.
What makes it right for the kids to arbitrarily learn only one of these theories. It seems that under the First Amendment, that both theories should be taught, and let everyone decide for themselves.
What makes it right is that one of these "theories" is religious in nature and basis, and the other isn't. Since SCOTUS (that is, the Supreme Court Of The United States) has ruled that the First Amendment decrees a separation of church and state, the religious "theory" obviously does not belong in a publicly funded school.
This seems to be yet another instance of the government telling us what we should think.
This is in fact just the opposite. It is the government preventing itself from telling us to think a certain way on religious grounds. The government isn't preventing you from sending your children to a religous private school, or from teaching them creationism yourself. But it is preventing the teaching of ideas that favor one religion over another being supported by public funds.
Re:Well done lads, collective pat on the back (Score:5, Insightful)
So is all of science. In science you observe the world and come up with an explanation (a theory). Then you see how far that takes you. Theories let you understand how things work and are used to build things. For example, there is a theory of elecricity, which makes it possible for you to read this post.
An important property of a real theory that in principle you can present evidence to falsify it. What evidence would you present to falsify creationism?
It seems that under the First Amendment, that both theories should be taught, and let everyone decide for themselves.
First Amendment gives you the right to speak for creationims, but it does not give you the right to force others to listen.
Having said that, I wish they would teach both in science classrooms. Just explain the evidence for both: genetics, fossils, geology for evolution and some old book written by ancient men for creationism. Then let the kids sort it out.
Control genes (Score:5, Interesting)
This fits nicely with Stephen J. Goulds theory of "stasis" evolution, in where when environment is more or less stable animals don't seem to evolve at all for millions of years but when there is drastic changes in the environment the animals evolve very quickly (in geological timeframe). The fact that the mechanism for inducing quick and major changes in the animals physiology in short time supports this theory.