atheists's Journal: First discussion: raising children

Well, it seems that this account is generating some genuine interest from several angles. I hope this interest will bring beneficial things to discussions. I hope to post weekly discussion topics, but don't shoot me if we skip around, sometimes I just don't get good material. If you have something of interest, post a link to a JE suggesting it for a future discussion. Hopefully we won't fragment at that time for a discussion about it, but who really cares.

Following is a post I am copying from an atheist discussion email group I belong to. It is quite long, but you get the gist pretty quickly. She brings up some good points and she obviously cares a lot about her child(ren).

What would you do if you were in her shoes? How far would you go to support your children and retain your individuality? Those of you who have raised teenagers can chime in about trying to pull something over on them and the limitations of genuine support versus going through fake motions.

Maybe since this is our first discussion you could also discuss your upbringing as related to this topic.

*************************************************

Background: I made my decision in my early 20s to choose a non-
religious path. My family, including, my mother, know how I feel but
we do not discuss it very much. My family will not push me towards
religion, although my mother would like it very much. My father
passed when I was 18. My sister is not judgmental and supports
whatever decisions I make.

I am a single mom to an adopted older child, a beautiful 9 year old
girl from Ukraine. I am traveling to Russia to adopt my second
child, another girl between the ages of 5 to 7. I adopted my first
child 2 years ago. I want to keep an open mind as to allowing my
daughter to make her own choice as far as religion is concerned but I
am finding it difficult to lead her in that direction.

I have permitted my daughter to attend services with our neighbors
and she has attended functions with friends of several religious
persuasions. To date she has been introduced to Catholic,
Presbyterian and 7th Day Adventist. She appears to like attending
religious services as it provides a stability she missed in the
orphanage but it is very difficult for me to urge her and when she
discusses things she has learned from religious friends I merely
listen. We don't discuss anything from a religious point of view at
home.

My background is Catholic. My uncle is a priest and I attended a
private catholic girls school in Pennsylvania. Two of my daughter's
adopted friends (girls), one from Ukraine, the other from Bulgaria,
are both receiving first communion this month. It was difficult for
me to purchase congratulatory first communion cards but I got one for
both girls and bought a McDonalds certificate for both. This is,
after all, their celebration. We were invited to attend a party for
one of the children after the ceremony. At first I thought we should
not go but then I reasoned that it would be unfair to keep my
daughter away because I don't believe, although I received first
communion myself when I was her age. My mother saved my first
communion veil and wants me to give it to my daughter. My daughter
will ask questions at this party and will probably want to receive
first communion herself.

I went so far as to inquire at the Catholic Church in our community
about introducing my daughter to catholicism. I am trying to keep an
open mind but, again, it is very difficult. I was told that in order
to receive first communion, my daughter would have to attend CCD
classes for at least a year but first, she would have to be baptized
in the US in a process called "conditional baptism" since there are
no records from her orphanage of her ever having been
baptized. In order to do that I, as the parent, must attend classes
and supposedly must be a practicing Catholic, which I am not. I have
never taken my daughter to Sunday services either, or any religious
services for that matter, except for my nephew's wedding. My sister
says if I want to give my daughter an option I must bite the bullet
and start attending services for her. I love my daughter very much
but when I read the materials the CCD coordinator at the church gave
to me I cringed. I remember all the prayers in the leaflet but there
are so, so many philosophies there that I disagree with.

So at this juncture I have done nothing, and don't know if I will do
anything at all. I need to come to grips with my dilemma, however,
as I am approaching my second adoption and will face this problem
again.

I was afraid to say I had no religion in my dossier (and the upcoming
dossier, including homestudy) because I felt both countries, Russia
and Ukraine, both Russian orthodox countries, would frown upon such
an acknowledgement and not permit me to adopt. Same thing for the
homestudy agency (which is religious) and the adoption agency I am
using. Neither know anything of this.

This is my first post of this kind. I am an elementary school
teacher in Maryland and a non-religious individual.

Dee

Difficult question

[johndiii]

This is a difficult question. I don't think that the mother mentioned it in her message, but it appears that she has not discussed her atheism, and the reasoning behind it, with her daughter. I would say that that is one of the first things that sh should do. Nine years old is a little young, in my opinion, for a child to be making this kind of decision for herself. The Catholic Church, however, accepts eight years old as the "age of reason" - the age when (somewhat arbitrarily) a child is presumed to b

Re:Difficult question

[heliocentric]

This examplifies a dilemma that I think many agnostic or atheist parents face. They recognize that their children should be free to make their own choices in the area of religion. This is good. Unfortunately, many also tend not to educate their children on the choices available. This often leaves the child adrift, vulnerable to the first trend that comes along. I think that is what happened in this case.

To kill two birds with one stone here, let me talk on this issue and talk about some of my upbrining.

Re:Difficult question

[johndiii]

I have a lot of respect for someone who has educated themself, researched the choices, and followed through on their decision. I was taught, when I was young, that atheism was bad. But I observed that there were good atheists, as well as bad Christians, so I think that particular teaching didn't exactly take.

I think that those aggressive proselytizers are (probably subconsciously) trying to make up for something that is lacking in their life. I regard trying to coerce someone to change their views a

Re:Difficult question

[heliocentric]

One thing I can perhaps speak on having had some experiences is to compare some attitudes I experienced and vibes I got comparing Judiasm and Christianity. Judiasm seems to take the road that you have to really want to become Jewish. There is an unwritten rule that you ask a rabbi and he says no, you ask again later, he still says no. It is almost making it exclusive that makes followers less likely to push it on people. Someone has to personally really want to become jewish to accomplish this, no one c

I was brought up a Hindu

[Organized Konfusion]

I come from a very religious family, both my encouraged me and introduced me to Hinduism from birth and I had attend many ceremonies. I think at the age of about 8 they wanted me to have a "janoy" which is some sort of ritual where you promise to live an acceptable and good life (in gods eyes). Quite similar to a baptism.

I don't know why but I refused to do it, I just didn't want to.

At the age of 10 I realised I didn't believe any of this religion malarkey they were obsessed with and I stopped going to th

My Views

[bamberg]

Personally, I think the best thing she can do for the child is teach her critical thinking [criticalthinking.org]. Obviously, with so young a child it would be necessary to take things slowly but she should be able to give her daughter a sturdy foundation for facing religion and life in general.

She appears to like attending religious services as it provides a stability she missed in the orphanage but it is very difficult for me to urge her and when she discusses things she has learned from religious friends I merely listen. W

Raising Children Atheist

[SiliconJesus]

It appears that Dee has decided herself to be agnostic at best in her decisions. If she didn't want her child to be roped into religious caterwalling, than she should have snipped it in the bud and not let her attend services with 'neighbors and friends' without her. If this is the way she wishes to raise her children, then fine - let the opiate of the masses invade through the cracks in her parenting. Upon observation, it appears that Dee isn't a true athiest, but merely hiding from the church herself.

Re:Raising Children Atheist

[Organized Konfusion]

opiate of the masses? Lenin said that didn't he?

Re:Raising Children Atheist

[SiliconJesus]

I believe so - to this day it remains my favorite description of mass religion.

Re:Raising Children Atheist

[LPetrazickis]

Marx.

Re:Raising Children Atheist

[LPetrazickis]

???
Profit Marx

Re:Raising Children Atheist

[Organized Konfusion]

So it was Lenin who called religion spritual gin, I think.

This is actually quite simple

[FortKnox]

If she wants to let her child do what she wants, and the child wants to be Catholic, simply find a Catholic church that is more new age and less orthodox.

I have a friend who is Catholic, she had a child unmarried and no longer goes to church. She still wanted the baby baptised. She went to an orthodox Catholic church. They said they'd only baptise if she went to their church. When they asked about her husband and she said she was unmarried she wasn't welcome. That's a terrible approach from a religio

+1 Correct

[eugene ts wong]

I'm not saying that I agree with any of the churches, but from Dee's perspective, the doctrine isn't really relevant. Thus, going to any church will provide the religious-cultural-childhood experience.

Time to thank my mom for something...

[Ironica]

My mom grew up very christian, Methodist in the Bible belt. Her first published work was an article called "I Protest: a Santa Claus God," in Christianity Today.

She's [bobbiekirkhart.com] now president of Atheists Alliance International [atheistalliance.org].

She was drifting away from religion before I was born, after a few years as a social worker in South Central Los Angeles. But it was when she and my father were planning a child that she felt it was very important to have straight in *her* head just what she believed or didn't believe.

So b