Journal FortKnox's Journal: Programmers Are Not Engineers 21
I read the past Ask Slashdot about whether a programmer is an engineer.
Allow me to warn you. This is one of my sole bigotous traits. I am a bigot when you talk engineer vs coder.
My answer? Depends on the degree. I'm a programmer (actually, I prefer the term 'developer'), and I have a degree in computer engineering. I am an engineer. I have co-workers that have degrees in EE. They are engineers. I have co-workers that have degrees in CompSci and Math. They are not engineers.
Do not get me wrong. Some compsci/math majors are better programmers than some engineers. But they don't have the background in engineering. Engineering is a type of thinking, and a type of problem solving. These techniques are pounded into our heads with every engineering class we take. It isn't easy. I've seen over half (almost 3/4s) of my class drop out. I didn't. I pride myself on that piece of paper that states I'm an engineer. I hate the fact that other people can put it in their title (a la "Software Engineer") and dropped out of engineering for a different degree in college.
Some states require you have an engineering degree before you can have a business title with the term 'engineer' in it. Some states require you have a PE[1*] before you can have the term 'engineer' in your title. I support the first one (the second one is a bit outdated IMO).
So there you go. FK can be a bigot/zealotous himself. Feel free to flame or argue with me, but you'll find I'm pretty stern in my stance.
[1*] a PE is a 'professional engineer'. You have to take a test when you graduate (which is extremely difficult), then take a second part of the test after you have been on a job for over 5 years. If you pass both, you are given the title 'Professional Engineer'. The biggest reason for a PE was for the courts. A 'PE' could be called as an expert on a particular engineering field. There were other reasons (like extra resposibilities and liabilities when you have it), but that was the biggest. Now-a-days, you get a PhD to be an expert and 'PE's are rarely seen (I didn't bother taking the first test), and are a thing of the past that will die away soon.
Allow me to warn you. This is one of my sole bigotous traits. I am a bigot when you talk engineer vs coder.
My answer? Depends on the degree. I'm a programmer (actually, I prefer the term 'developer'), and I have a degree in computer engineering. I am an engineer. I have co-workers that have degrees in EE. They are engineers. I have co-workers that have degrees in CompSci and Math. They are not engineers.
Do not get me wrong. Some compsci/math majors are better programmers than some engineers. But they don't have the background in engineering. Engineering is a type of thinking, and a type of problem solving. These techniques are pounded into our heads with every engineering class we take. It isn't easy. I've seen over half (almost 3/4s) of my class drop out. I didn't. I pride myself on that piece of paper that states I'm an engineer. I hate the fact that other people can put it in their title (a la "Software Engineer") and dropped out of engineering for a different degree in college.
Some states require you have an engineering degree before you can have a business title with the term 'engineer' in it. Some states require you have a PE[1*] before you can have the term 'engineer' in your title. I support the first one (the second one is a bit outdated IMO).
So there you go. FK can be a bigot/zealotous himself. Feel free to flame or argue with me, but you'll find I'm pretty stern in my stance.
[1*] a PE is a 'professional engineer'. You have to take a test when you graduate (which is extremely difficult), then take a second part of the test after you have been on a job for over 5 years. If you pass both, you are given the title 'Professional Engineer'. The biggest reason for a PE was for the courts. A 'PE' could be called as an expert on a particular engineering field. There were other reasons (like extra resposibilities and liabilities when you have it), but that was the biggest. Now-a-days, you get a PhD to be an expert and 'PE's are rarely seen (I didn't bother taking the first test), and are a thing of the past that will die away soon.
I think there's a pretty simple litmus test (Score:2)
Alternatively, have you taken more than 2 classes where the main goal is to get things to not explode?
Re:I think there's a pretty simple litmus test (Score:2)
I think it's more symptomatic of the rapidly changing tech field. When I graduated, there really wasn't a need for a PE. There was such a great need for both programmers and engineers they would take whoever could play the part. Perhaps now
Re:I think there's a pretty simple litmus test (Score:2)
It's interesting that you're okay with calling yourself a software engineer when you actually have a computer engineering degree. Software engineering has a very special connotation where I come from. (I don't know if the software engineering classes here are actually what software engineering is, but they involve a lot of meaningless paperwork and Gantt charts- the least engineering-like courses in the entire CS/CompE curriculum.)
Computer Engineering? (Score:1)
Even though my degree is CS, I feel comfortable calling myself an engineer since I had to put up with the same prereqs as all the other engineers. It's just the last 3
Re:Computer Engineering? (Score:1)
None of them had "Software Engineering" yet, and only 2 of them had "Computer Engineering." I went to the school whose "Computer Engineering" could be tied to software better.
I knew I wanted to be an engineer, so that's what I did.
Re:Computer Engineering? (Score:2)
You could certainly argue that since I have a CS degree and one of my classmates might have a CSE degree he is an engineer and I am not. However I have had a lot more
Re:Computer Engineering? (Score:1)
Re:Computer Engineering? (Score:2)
As a Computer Scientist: I agree! (Score:1)
gray area (Score:2)
I consider programming as a form of engineering, but there are numerous people in the field that aren't engineers, but do manage to do a decent job.
It really depends on how to learned programming, and how you attack problems. And how far up the chain you are.
Die away soon? Dunno (Score:2)
I can hire myself out as a Geophysicist thanks to my degree for another month (I think the law goes into effect May 1), but after that, I have to get certified if I want to work as a private consultant. This will raise the barrier to entry, as one must apprentice for 5 years before being allowed to sit for the exam.
Recently, I had a discussion with some engineers from Bechtel at a networking social, and they said they thought
No Formal Education (Score:2)
You mention that a large part of engineering was methods - the type of thinking and problem solving. If you think and solve in this manner, but don't have the degree, can you not be an
Re:No Formal Education (Score:2)
SWEET LORD MAN! IF YOU JUST TRIED BUTTERSCOTCH I BET YOU'D LIKE IT! Only real men like emac^H^H^H^Herr... butterscotch.
Re:No Formal Education (Score:2)
Because it tastes like shit. You can expect my suicide bombers sometime this week.
Re:No Formal Education (Score:2)
The pudding God Chi-Chi will not stand for the great flavors to be defiled by your treachery!
Re:No Formal Education (Score:1)
blah. (Score:2)
I program. I software engineer (process, metrics, and estimations, oh my!). I have a BS in EE. Come May I will have an MS in CS. I maintain and trouble shoot networking code in real time systems.
in addition to tooting my own horn, I'm saying all this to show I've seen a little bit here and there. I welcome the idea of a PE test. I saw my fellow EE undergrads crowd around myself and my soon-to-be lab partner because we were the ones who could get our integrated elec
I think the thing that (Score:2)
And I think this is pretty obvious from all of the wheel reinvention, and horrible unmaintainable unextensible code that lies all around: people can't tell the difference.
Well until the thing crashes every other day, is bloated and slow. And
CS Education (Score:1)
Creating a circuit diagram for an elevator, or witing a polymorphic class require the same thinking skills of the developer. A student in comp. eng. would have exposer to more of the former and one in comp. sci. more of the latter. The reaso
These days you need to be more specific. (Score:1)