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roman_mir's Journal: Occupy Wall Street Demands 6

Journal by roman_mir

This is a list of demands found on 'occupy wall street' website. This was posted by some Lloyd J Hart 508-687-9153 - again, right on that website.

Let's look at the demands, see what is it that the people want, must be good stuff.

Proposed List Of Demands For Occupy Wall St Movement!

- OK, so this is a 'proposed' list. I wonder who'll be approving the proposals?

Posted 9 days ago by Lloyd J Hart (Vineyard Haven, MA)

- some guy. Don't know who that is.

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

- so this is a demand to hike prices for goods.

First part of the demand is to establish trade tariffs.

Obviously Lloyd thinks that Americans need to pay more for goods. He also believes that the only thing that is standing between American based manufacturing/agriculture jobs and sales is a bunch of cheap goods produced elsewhere. Well, it's a reasonable assumption that if all goods were made more expensive to import into USA, then there would be no difference between buying an American made good and a Chinese product.

The only two questions are:

1. Does USA actually have the capacity to produce anything any longer that has been outsourced to other countries (USA has 53Billion USD/month trade deficit and half of the government spending is borrowed from foreign lenders). Where is the capital, where are the factories? Are there tools left? Factories? Experience? Shipment lanes? Supplier chains?

2. How will buying more expensive goods make the economy better? Isn't the point of industrialization to bring all goods to all people by using capitalism and increased efficiencies in production, so that anybody can afford anything that only the richest people used to be able to afford? Who benefits the most from industrialization and capitalism? Is it the rich person, who can hire a dish washer to wash his dishes, or is it a commoner, who can get all the cheap mass produced products, like dish washers and enjoy the same quality of life as a rich person used to have?

So the very first demand is: increase our costs and somehow this is supposed to return production capacity that USA lost. But by increasing the costs of products that Americans are consuming by installing all sorts of tariffs, how are the Americans supposed to then save capital to restart the lost production? There are no factories. There are no tools. There are no supply chains.

Second part of the demand is to set minimum wage at $20/hour.

Clearly Lloyd thinks that the current unemployment levels at $7.25/hour are not high enough, he is interested in pushing the minimum wage to $20/hour and pricing out those people, who produce less than $20/hour of goods (not including the production costs). Lloyd should rethink this position and aim higher. He really should start at $2000/hour, because given inflation levels that his demand would generate and given the amount, by which the prices of goods will be raised (because all of that lost production capacity will have to be covered somehow). The cost of living in USA will obviously be much higher given the first part of the demand - introducing tariffs. One does not introduce tariffs to keep prices down, one introduces tariffs so that prices can go up (in case of USA it's not just going to be prices that will go up, the products will no longer be accessible, because USA doesn't produce anything to cover its consumption.) 90% of US sea food is bought from Asia. Introducing tariffs will increase the prices, does Lloyd really believe that the amount of $20/hour will be enough for him to have that comfortable life he is probably hoping to have?

$20/hour is not just a piece of paper. Somebody must produce $20/hour worth of goods in order for somebody else to consume that amount. We are going to go over the next demands, where probably there will be a demand for 'guaranteed employment', so it's likely Lloyd wants everybody to make $800/week or $3200/month. So if everybody is making $3200/month but the prices for all of the foreign products are raised due to tariffs and there is no domestic production, what will the inflation have to be (money printing for consumer loans) in order for people to afford any goods, because $3200/month becomes the base line income for everybody. In real life this means that $3200/month become equal to 0.

I don't see Lloyd thinking this through very much. Anyway, let's look at the second demand.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

- what we have here is a monopoly on health care that Lloyd wants to institute. Of-course the minimum payment for everybody will be $20/hour, I am not sure what Lloyd thinks about taxes on this money, who is supposed to pay for this single payer health care system, it's not defined in this demand.

But clearly the private insurance will be outlawed, which means the costs of insurance will be whatever government insists it will be, and government will have to provide this to everybody. In order to provide health insurance and care to everybody via government, the taxes will have to be raised, because currently large number of Americans (likely up to 50 Million) do not have health insurance - many are on government health insurance already, those are the seniors and the unemployed. Of-course with $20/hour minimum wage, there will be many more unemployed people (unless work is somehow guaranteed by the government, like it was in the former USSR, where employment was full, but production was minimal.) If at $7.25/hour there are at least 9.1% or 14,000,000 unemployed, in reality the number is over 20%, which is about 28,000,000 unemployed. At $20/hour, the number of unemployed is likely to triple. That means anywhere between 42,000,000 and 84,000,000 unemployed. Since 14,000,000 is just over 9%, then 100% is under 150,000,000 total people that are supposed to be working, which is about half of the population of USA. Having a quarter to over half of these people unemployed raises the question: what are the taxes supposed to be to give everybody full medical coverage?

Maybe what Lloyd really means is that government should be paying for the health care by any means necessary, so taxing/borrowing/printing the money. Well, that's how USSR did it. Of-course what that means is that the money is artificial, as nobody will give USA anymore loans at that point with such high unemployment, the credit interest is likely to be in double digits. So USA will tax and then print the difference, which means very high level of inflation again, so Lloyd's $20/hour is really not enough at all, as prices will be forced up by that type of inflation. Of-course printing money is the last resort of the failed government. Money is not paper, money is reflection of production. Somebody has to produce $20 worth of products in order for that $20 to buy those products. If there is no production corresponding to that $20, then the 20 will be used to bid up prices of products that are produced. Of-course government is unlikely to admit this type of inflation, it's not admitting it now.

What is more likely is that there will be price and exchange controls implemented, once government takes all of the above measures, and price and exchange controls always lead to one thing: shortages and black markets, as money becomes worthless, nobody wants to sell anything for it and products disappear and are only sold for type of money that will be considered more stable. What that will be is not difficult to imagine: any type of foreign currency that is still backed by production and precious items, metals. Of-course, back in the USSR any use of foreign currencies and precious metals for trade was completely illegal and punishable very harshly, it could be punishable by death. Will US population agree to such measures to stop its economy from going underground completely?

The problem with this demand also is that somebody will have to provide these medical services. Of-course printing currency and paying with it is exactly the same as stealing labor. Who exactly will have to suffer from this? Clearly the doctors and nurses. So in order to make sure that they don't just quit in huge numbers, there will have to be incentives implemented - from punishment to special treatment, like providing them with food stamps and stamps for whatever consumer items that they will be able to get for the money that is paid to them.

So the economy will be rotating around printing large amounts of money, paying it to the doctors/nurses and making sure that they can buy stuff with that cash not from the black market. It's not going to be easy for the average American to agree that the doctors and nurses should be getting these privileges. After all, everybody else has their $20/hour and they want to buy stuff too. The politicians will obviously have special access to food and other types of stamps, this will divide the people into those who have just the cash, and those who have cash and stamps to buy things with. I am afraid Lloyd will be on the barricades again, requiring food and other types of stamps for himself and everybody. The question is: who is going to be making stuff?

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

- since $20/hour becomes 'minimum wage' in Lloyd's world, then living wage is that very $20/hour, if I am not mistaken? So then regardless of whether one works or does not work, he/she should be getting these $20/hour. OK, so the real question is this: why work?

Why work if the living wage is given to you anyway?

OK, so why should anybody work?

But then the final question: if NOBODY WORKS where are these products going to come from? Why should the doctors and the nurses work? What is the incentive for anybody to work?

If the inflation is so high, that $20/hour becomes much LESS than the living wage, because any available items are in thousands of dollars per item, is Lloyd going to come back to the barricades and require that the minimum living wage is increased to whatever it is at that point (like I said: $2000/hour)? If he is successful then and everybody starts receiving $2000/hour regardless of whether they work or not, how does that change the situation at all?

Why work at $2000/hour? Why should anybody work if they are giving the minimum living wage at that level anyway? $2000/hour? What will happen to the inflation at that level, will the products be repriced to cost in millions?

So if products are repriced and now cost millions, will Lloyd come to the barricades requiring that everybody gets $2,000,000/hour?

Do you get my point?

Do you know that during the twenties in USSR this what was happening with money and prices and markets? Has Lloyd ever study history of other countries? USSR? Soviet China?

Demand four: Free college education.

- Same as with doctors and nurses, now the professors going to be forced to work while everybody else is just getting their minimum living wage. Why should the professors work? I guess they also will have to receive their special privileges of food and other products as stamps with their cash. Also if one gets minimum living wage regardless of what it is, why bother going to college at all?

In USSR the employment was 100%. Everybody was REQUIRED to work in fact. In the time of Kruschev it was a CRIME to be seen outside of work place during work hours. This became a curiosity, since anybody who was getting a haircut or was in a movie theater could be arrested (and some did), because they were not at their required work place.

The governmnet had to force people to be at whatever work places in order for them to receive their assigned salaries. But this goes against the demand that Lloyd is issuing for a required minimum wage regardless of whether one is working or not, so Lloyds demands go much beyond of even what USSR was doing. In USSR people were required to work. Of-course most of them did worthless unproductive work, that's why there was so little produced, from food, to shoes, to TVs, there were huge shortages, and even with the money that people were getting it was very difficult to buy anything. Inflation - everybody was guaranteed their salaries, so salaries meant very little when somebody wanted to buy a car.

Indeed, how would one buy a car, when his salary is maybe 120 rubbles/MONTH and a car starts at 6,000 rubbles? Even when a person was able to produce that amount of rubbles somehow (never mind how), even then actually BUYING a car was hard. One had to have these special sort of 'stamps' to buy a car.

But Lloyd doesn't even want anybody to be forced to work, otherwise he wouldn't have demanded a minimum living wage whether they are working or not. So I wonder what a car would have to cost relative to people's salaries, and what type of special privileges would be required to own one.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

- Solindra. Of-course in a society that put tariffs on everything that is imported, even if it is produced in other countries with subsidies already (so it's really unproductive NOT to buy the things that were already subsidized by foreign governments, which means tax payers, which means these things are sold at a loss). But never mind that. How would it be possible to get away from fossil fuel economy? I suppose the reason behind it is GREEN, but this means that not only Americans would be required to switch from fossil fuels, but to be consistent, Americans would have to stop drilling and exporting their fossil fuels to other countries.

At that point I wonder what Americans could even trade with at all with other countries? At $2,000,000/hour living wage (or whatever it is), not producing anything because nobody will work - why work if you are paid 'minimum living wage? What will Americans be producing at all and what will anybody want to trade with them for? Again - nobody wants to trade for empty promises, people trade because of competitive advantage, to exchange products they are good at for products somebody else is good at. So what will Americans be so good at, that they will produce with their non-working work force, special privileges for politicians, doctors, nurses and teachers/professors? It really is not clear.

Switching from fossil fuels and not selling fossil fuels abroad due to ideology will put a real strain on the American market. It's not clear why would anybody be doing anything and why would anybody sell anything to Americans from abroad.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

- Of-course USA is broke. But never mind that, at $20/hour work force, 1,000,000,000,000 dollars will buy 50,000,000,000 hours of work. That's 50 billion hours of work. Of-course that's 6,250,000,000 work days or 17,123,287 work years (counting at 365 days/year). If this project goes ahead, then this will provide over 17 Million Americans with 1 year of work. On the other hand it can also provide 34 Million Americans with half a year of work. Or it could be 68 Million Americans with 3 months of work. It also could be 1.5 months of work for 134 million Americans. Well that's good. That would keep them occupied if they are forced to work, because government can't really do anything but get people to work on some infrastructure projects. Government doesn't do anything else but shovel ready stuff and here is an opportunity to do a lot of shoveling. I just don't know why stop at 1Trillion. Why not just hire every American to do this for a much longer time, the way USSR did it?

Of-course I am also at a loss as to why would anybody want to do this hard work when they can just kick back on their guaranteed minimum living wage?

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

- Ah great, 1 more Trillion. Same questions as above.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

- I don't understand this demand. Isn't there already all of this done in USA? Hasn't pretty much every employer been sued one way or another, which is part of the reason there is such huge unemployment among those, who are given all these various privileges?

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

- I have news for Lloyd: Lloyd, the economy that your demand will create will only have one direction for migrant workers. It's going to be OUT of USA. This demand cannot be satisfied at all given all the other demands. You will have to impose an iron curtain to make sure there is still somebody left in the country to do all this free work: teaching, healing, growing forests and building bridges.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

- whatever. I don't even understand why this silly demand is here given everything else? It's incompatible with all the other demands again, because you can't have change of policy once you instrument all these demands on minimum wages, work, etc., you can't change the government, because you will end up losing those demands for sure. You have to enforce one party, one rule, one time and try and keep it as long as you can, otherwise none of these demands will stay in action, once the true costs of them are understood. What is the point of elections if Lloyd is going to dictate the policy from barricades is what I am actually asking?

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

- ah, so Lloyd is now telling the entire planet what to do.

OK, how about trying that just in the USA first and then telling everybody how that went? Don't forget - your bank 'deposit'.... it's a loan to the bank. Your grandmother's pension .... it's a loan to the bank, and it was loaned out as a mortgage or a student loan. But of-course at that point it doesn't matter, because everybody is getting 'minimum living wage', working or not. Of-course 'debt' really means assets. The banks OWN 'your' houses, because banks bought them for you and gave them to you. What you really want to do is confiscate bank's assets. OK, whatever, you want to crash the banks. That's fine. In fact WHY HAVE BANKS AT ALL?

If everybody is just getting $20/hour, whether they are working or not, if everybody is just given somehow what they need (I don't know who is producing it all, but OK), then why have banks?

It's not just Communism - it's beautiful. Anything you ever wanted is immediately given to you, all of your dreams are fulfilled, why have banks? Just have one Central Bank (like they had in USSR), and have it print all that cash and be done with it. Who needs deposits and loans and financial instruments, anything? I guess ATMs are still banks' property. It can be confiscated too. Why not? You are confiscating all of their assets anyway (the houses, all of the collateral), why not confiscate the remaining assets as well, after all, what use are those to the banks if they are not allowed to collect on their assets anymore? The holders of the banks - the shareholders, they are the people who now have their investments wiped out, it's them and all of the depositors and all of the counter-parties that have their assets and investments wiped out.

Of-course the question is: why didn't the government just allow that to happen ALL BY ITSELF back in 2008? I guess there wasn't Lloyd around with the list of these wonderful demands.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

- Again, what's the point of any reporting agencies if the banks are destroyed? I don't even understand this point, there will be no credit agencies because there will be no credit. Who is going to be THAT STUPID to give credit to ANYBODY EVER AGAIN if credit can be 'forgiven' by a Lloyd's popular/populist demand? Never mind credit agencies, just outlaw credit (and that's what market will do for you, once it realizes what just happen with these 'debt forgiveness' idea.)

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

- This is just gratuitous. Who wants to be in a union if you can just get minimum living wage without working? Lloyd, stop rubbing the salt all over the wounds.

These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.

- OH!

Oh my god.

I don't know who Lloyd is, but if he is any older than 5 years of age, then I hope that people find him and comfort him, because he is lost. He is so absolutely lost.

I wonder how many people read this list of demands and thought: this is a good list, it makes sense?

Anyway, I don't need to write anymore on this subject. I hope it is understood what kinds of ideologies we are presented here with - 4-5 year olds can come up with this. At that age, when a kid is told that the parent has no money to buy something, the kid can tell the parent to just "buy some money". Anybody above that age should know better that money is not just paper, it's production, and that people who don't have to work will not work, because there is no reason to do it. It should be clear to everybody that this list is a product of USA's current education system that has completely failed to produce individuals who are capable of any rational intelligent thought and have no idea about what money is, where it comes from, why it exists, why people work, why people don't work, what people want in their lives, what products are, etc.etc.etc. This is completely unbearably ridiculous, yet here it is, black on white.

All I can tell you is this: beware. BEWARE! This is the same ideology that crashed the tsarist Russia at one point in time in 1917 and created what was known as USSR - Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. But this list is even more ridiculous, because while the Marxist/Leninist slogan of USSR was: "From everybody's abilities to everybody's needs", the slogan here is: "I want, I want, I want". That's all there is to it.

This is a tantrum of a 5 year old child. This is no different than those bankers who said the same thing during 2008, well, people should understand that failures should allow to fail. Risk must be dangerous, that's why it's risk and not a 'guarantee'.

Yes, students have it hard. No, I don't think students who sign under the demands above should ever even have an OPPORTUNITY to go to any university/college or even high school. They belong as apprentices somewhere in wood shop or on a fishing boat. This government will likely forgive their debts, why not, bank debts were forgiven and having too many students with these grievances is dangerous for the society. Of-course the ONLY way to forgive these debts is to make sure that nobody can every get into the same debts ever again, so all loand guarantees by government must be stopped. How likely is that to happen in USA today? This is a tragedy.

However I understand their frustration with their loans. They were tricked into these loans by the system, that told them they needed to get a bachelor's degree in something even to have any job at all, and the market was crashing all around them, and they were too young to understand these problem, and their parents were born into a system that already lost any sense of what money was. Federal reserve, FDIC, FHA, Freddie/Fannie, SS, Medicare, minimum wage, civil rights - those are not just bad ideas (civil rights are entitlements and obligations that cause less employment and higher employment costs by the way, and minimum wage just creates unemployment and destroys opportunity for a first job), these are idea that remove REALITY of what work is, what money is, what risk is.

Even the parents of these kids, who sign under these demands don't know any better. The parents OF the parents of these kids maybe could know. The people who DID know where the parents of the parents of the parents of these kids. THEY KNEW. They were there when understanding what work and what money and what risk is was still clear and important. They were there, but they did not stop the catastrophe of the cancerous growth of government, that lead to this level of ignorance for millions of people and 2-3 generations of people. This is not going to be easy to overcome, you should expect great deal of dissatisfaction and danger coming from these very people, who are like 5 year old minds in 20 something year old bodies, who don't know any better but they know that 'No Child is Left Behind'. They'll have to learn the hard way that when 'No Child is Left Behind', then EVERY child is left behind.

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Occupy Wall Street Demands

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  • by roman_mir (125474) on Thursday October 06, 2011 @10:03AM (#37625310) Homepage Journal

    At this point there are all sorts of lists of demands coming up, 10 here, 20 there, etc.etc., everything, from nationalizing banks to taxing the rich, all this nonsense.

    The only real demands, if they really are serious, should be these:

    1. End the Federal reserve bank.
    2. End IRS, income/corporate/payroll taxes.
    3. End CIA and FBI.
    4. End all WARS and bring troops home, enforce the Constitution and stop illegality of having undeclared wars.
    5. End FDIC, FHA, Freddie/Fannie.
    6. End FDA, EPA, dep't of energy, agriculture, education, small business... down the list of all departments that hold unelected power.
    7. Constitutional amendment to prevent federal government from passing any business regulations, any subsidies, any spending on any projects that are not military, criminal and contract law. This includes subsidies to businesses, SS, Medicare, minimum wage, labor laws, and 'civil right acts' (which are entitlements/obligations), subsidies to any businesses.
    8. Restore the Constitution by enforcing it.
    9. Only allow government to be paid for by sales taxes and reduce spending to only what is authorized by the Constitution.

    10. Money is gold.

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