ryanr's Journal: Ask /. rockstars

Aimed squarely at a number of people around here who probably know the answer...

So my oldest boy turned 16 today, and he likes to play bass. I took him to Guitar Center to pick out some toys, and gave him a relatively small dollar figure to work with. He had previously expressed interest in some new pickups or a wah peddle, or similar, so that's what I had in mind.

Instead, he was checking out amps. He wants something louder than his little 30W practice amp. After some discussion and fearing for the window panes, he tells me that he's looking for a big amp that he could use to play a gig with. He didn't find anything useful in his budget range (no surprise, since I didn't have that in mind), and he has opted to save up instead.

Now, whether worrying about playing a show is realistic or not isn't terribly important, and no reason to not indulge him.

But I have no idea what is neccessary for playing your typical local dive show. Is the band expected to bring enough noise to power the whole thing themselves? Do the venues always have in-house stuff? Is the player's own amp just used for purposes of micing or as a pre-amp?

Suggestions welcome. As in, is a 300W head and a cabinet with a couple of 12" speakers sufficient? Does he need a whole wall of hiwatts?

Well...

[Short Circuit]

I've had the good fortune to go to a couple events at bars. Not as a performer, mind you. (Well, except for last night...but I've performed that piece much better in the past.)

At both events, the organizers brought their own equipment...the bar didn't provide anything. But that might have been ideosyncratic of the bar that those two events were held at.

If you really want to know, call a few local bars, and ask what their policies are.

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[ryanr]

Thanks, good to know. Along those lines then, does one have to have a decent couple of cabinets then, in case a venue doesn't?

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[Short Circuit]

I didn't organize it...I just added my name to the list of people willing to perform that night.

Somebody else organized it. Both nights I've gone, the organizer brought his own equipment, including mic, amp and speakers. Last night, the substitute organizer also brought a synth for transition between performances. From what I can tell, that's they way they've done it in the past, at other venues, as well.

But I went to an open mic style event...an event focused around music, especially around a particular

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[ryanr]

Ask your kid where he and his friends plan to perform. They might already have their own equipment.

They haven't gotten that far. They would probably have to get as far as putting a demo on a recording medium, first. Though, there are claims of having written some original material.

Careful, though...it's sounding like you're turning into your kid's manager, in the commercial-artistic sense. :)

Nah, he wants an amp for a hypothetical purpose, and I'm just trying to help him pick it out.

an ol' Peavy Basic 60

[mekkab]

Put that bad bwoy [craigslist.org] on stage, let the sound guy mic it, and you're off. It's a classic.

Wait, emphasize the "and the sound guy MICS it" to your budding bassist. Maybe he and his band need to work on their chops before worrying about gear? (yes, I said that. Because I was that. Unless you are a "One-take Wonder" don't worry about the gear yet)

above that, your boy wants a PA system. Show him how to flip burgers or throw a newspaper (not that they're expensive, per se, but they're sort of out of the norm fo

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[ryanr]

Wait, emphasize the "and the sound guy MICS it" to your budding bassist. Maybe he and his band need to work on their chops before worrying about gear?

Certainly they do. But that's his problem. If he wants to save his money for an amp suitable to some purpose, I see no reason to not help him figure out what would be appropriate.

No one made me have an IT job before I got ~$1000 worth of 8-bit computer.

So, is 150W worth of Peavy 60 suitable for being heard in a smallish club? Over the drums? Will it get th

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[mekkab]

Yes, Yes, and "it depends on your neighbors"-Yes.

No one made me have an IT job before I got ~$1000 worth of 8-bit computer.

Gear-whoring is a real and dangerous syndrome in the musical community (recovering gear whore right here). Great musicians and good sound engineers can get "blood from a stone" and "polish a sonic turd." I just want to lay my pearls before deaf ears, and lead a horse to water that can only learn the hard way, and perhaps even teach a man to fish while mixing a few other metaphors.

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[ryanr]

Yes, Yes, and "it depends on your neighbors"-Yes.

Cool, thanks!

Gear-whoring is a real and dangerous syndrome in the musical community (recovering gear whore right here).

Yeah, I can imagine. I found myself looking at pedals for my guitar that I never play. But hey, the boy wants some loud, I'll get him some loud. He's presently suffering along on the el cheapo Squire P-Bass and practice amp special. He puts his time in, though. So I figure that's worth some new toys.

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[account_deleted]

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[ryanr]

Cool, thanks for chiming in!

So, I guess the not-so-subtle message is that if he sucks, maybe loud isn't such a hot idea? :)

I hear ya. (ha!) But again, not sucking is his problem.

Isn't the PA the singer's responsibility, ideally speaking? (Not that it's ever a bad idea to be prepared, just wondering.) Maybe that's more of a band dynamics thing...

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[account_deleted]

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[ryanr]

Now you're getting into areas where I'm even more fully useless. As in, I've never recorded anythig, for example. But part of the message I'm hearing is that basses are easier anyway, so that's good. Style-wise, I hear him practicing a lot of Metallica, ska, punk, some pop stuff. He seems to have no fear of some fingering work or a semi-complicated bass line. Seems like he and a lot of his friends are into classic rock, Sabbath, Zeppelin, and so on. So nothing so difficult there.

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[account_deleted]

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[ryanr]

Oh, and just found this, which may help:

Cool, thanks! I don't know if he has read it yet, I'll make sure he does. I know he was doing some shopping on that site, since he showed me one of the pages.

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[account_deleted]

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[ryanr]

It does help, thanks. Hm, so that's a decent size, and looks like it's going to sell in the $200+ range... more reasonable than i was expecting.

Random thoughts on your question

[djh101010]

Been there, done that, and yeah, everyone brings their own amps and speakers. You do not want to rely on the club's PA system;they always suck, period. Far as sizing, like others have said, find out how big of a room he wants to fill. And remember, if you buy it used, you can sell it back for nearly as much, whenever. New gear doesn't accomplish anything other than teaching the lad about depreciation hits. Get a good brand of used equipment, preferably that goes up to "11", and you're golden. If he ou

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[ryanr]

Yes, a couple of people have linked to some used gear, and the prices look pretty decent. I will definitly look into going that route.

He's got a really cheap Squire P-Bass, which I bought him as a kit with the little practice amp. We'll get that replaced some day, too.

I don't know what kind of music the group of friends he plays with does. My boy has supposedly written some stuff, but I haven't got to hear anything like a performance or recording yet. I know a lot of them seem to like the classic rock.

missed something..

[MousePotato]

These are great questions and the answers are all pretty good too but there is one thing being overlooked in the discussion for the most part. Your son will need an amp of sufficient power to be able to rehearse with his bandmates for a good period of time before any club lets them in to play a gig.

When I was your sons age most 'shows' that his age group played at were small parties, garages, warehouses and school shows (my high school had a 'battle of the bands' one year for example).

Soooo... as sad as thi

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[ryanr]

Excellent set of suggestions, thank you!

And I realize I'm still trying to get around the "it depends" answer... but are you saying that the 100-200W group practice amp would be smaller than or the same as a gig amp?

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[MousePotato]

the power really depends on a lot of other variables; genre of music, how many other players are in the band, what kind of transportation do you have to lug around the cabinet with, etc. I would say the rule of thumb as far as how many watts is really an issue os being able to be heard at the same level as the drummer (which unfotunately does not have a volume knob) while practicing without needing to overdrive/degrade the quality of the sound for the sake of volume. If he can be heard at or above that leve