Journal yerricde's Journal: Ask Toupsie: Migration From Floppy Disks? 8
toupsie wrote in "Mac OS X Switcher Stories":
"The Floppy is dead" and its continued promotion is a disservice to the public. It is not a cost effecient storage medium, takes up a ridculous amount of space for its storage ability and environmentally unsound. A 20 cent 700mb CD is far more efficient than a 5 cent 1.5mb Floppy. The only group that still believes in this tech are the floppy manufacturers and their marketing departments.
I am all for replacing floppy disks with recordable compact discs, but I see a few problems in the way:
A 12-cm (5-inch) CD-R disc does not fit into the pocket as well as a 3.5" floppy does. A spindle of fifty 8-cm (3-inch) CD-R discs currently costs significantly more than a spindle of fifty 12-cm CD-R discs. I could not find the smaller jewel cases for 8-cm discs at a Best Buy store or any other computer store within my walking distance, and using an 8-cm disc with a case for a 12-cm disc defeats the purpose of having an 8-cm disc.
Without a floppy disk drive, how does a fellow load the drivers for the CD-ROM drive so that one may begin installing the operating system on an older machine that does not support booting from an El Torito bootable CD?
Without a floppy disk drive, how does a fellow make an El Torito bootable CD in Roxio Easy CD Creator 4? In that program, when the user chooses New > Bootable CD, the program does the Windows API equivalent of dd to read 1440 KB of data sector-by-sector from the A: drive. Canceling the read cancels creation of the bootable CD.
Without a floppy disk drive, how does a fellow make a boot disk containing the Linux kernel for use in environments hostile to GRUB, such as dual-booting with Windows after installing some Windows service packs?
Without a floppy disk drive, how does a fellow move files from a four to six year old laptop computer (for which an internal CD recorder was never produced) to a new computer?
Answers (Score:2)
Old machines still have a use for floppy drives. New ones don't.
Roxio (and others) screwed up by using a lame technology (the Windows API:) for something. You should be able to create a folder with the necessary files. Roxio can supply the rest.
You make a cd boot disk. Or use the rescue cd-rom image. Don't know about other distros, but it works fine with Debian (and I think it works with redhat). Another option is Knoppix on an 8cm cd.
Laplink connection or ethernet. Faster than either floppy or cd. PCMCIA ethernet cards are pretty cheap ($50?) and if factored into the cost of a new machine, trivial.
There are answers to all of your questions. I find myself wanting to rip them all out of all of my machines. But then, the day before I'm scheduled to do it, one of my non-boot-from-cd machines does something stupid, and I need the floppy not only in that machine, but in the machine to make a disc to fix the broken machine. But I think my point is generally valid: no need for floppy drive on new machines.
Boot sector in a folder? (Score:2)
Roxio (and others) screwed up by using a lame technology (the Windows API:) for something.
On a Windows machine, how is the Windows API lamer than anything else?
You should be able to create a folder with the necessary files. Roxio can supply the rest.
Most operating systems must have their own particular boot sector. A FAT folder cannot contain a boot sector.
Laplink connection or ethernet.
Most laptops that do not boot from CD surely do not boot from the serial port or from a PC Card. And even if I do keep a machine with a floppy drive around just for making boot images (as you seemed to suggest in your last paragraph), how do I find DOS drivers for the PC Card Ethernet adapters currently available at Best Buy (not eBay)?
Re:Boot sector in a folder? (Score:2)
Most laptops that do not boot from CD surely do not boot from the serial port or from a PC Card. And even if I do keep a machine with a floppy drive around just for making boot images (as you seemed to suggest in your last paragraph), how do I find DOS drivers for the PC Card Ethernet adapters currently available at Best Buy (not eBay)?
I was too lazy to quote in my response. This was about the use of a floppy drive to transfer files from an old laptop to a new machine. These alternatives don't require booting from serial port, PC Card, etc.
What I'm saying ('twas the first line of my other post) is that there is no need for a floppy drive on new machines, only on old machines. Perhaps I should amend that: there is no need for a floppy drive on new machines, unless you are stuck dealing with crappy old machines.
If a machine can't boot from an El Torito, obviously, it would need a floppy drive. But if a machine can't boot from an El Torito, it's not a new machine.
My suggestions. Salt grain(s) optional. (Score:1)
A little 32 MB NVRAM IDE dongle would do nicely. (Some linkage exists in
Check out the SUBST command.
Boot from an El Torito disk, or use a utility like System Commander to prevent MBR overwrites.
They invented PCMCIA Ethernet cards and crossover cables specifically because the gods foresaw the situation you describe.
Jouster
Cannot 'format /s' a 'subst'ed drive (Score:2)
I love the little 40 MB business card-sized disks. I keep two CD-RW's in my wallet.
Then what do you do when you come across a machine with an older CD-ROM drive that does not have the proper Automatic Gain Control required to read the lower-reflectivity data layer of a CD-RW disc? The 100 MHz Pentium machines I mentioned have exactly such a drive.
A little 32 MB NVRAM IDE dongle would do nicely.
Booting from a CompactFlash card in an ATA adapter won't especially work if the owner of the machine is paranoid about anybody opening the case. I would much prefer a solution that could be used from the front or back of the machine.
[To work around the limitation of Roxio CD Creator 4 where creating an El Torito bootable disc requires a floppy drive,] Check out the SUBST command.
From the Windows 2000 Help file:
If one cannot format /s or sys a drive mapped with subst, then it is impossible to put boot code in a subst drive to create the El Torito boot image's boot sector.
[To work around unauthorized MBR modifications,] Boot from an El Torito disk
Creating an El Torito bootable disc in Roxio Easy CD Creator 4 requires a floppy disk drive, and subst won't cut it.
or use a utility like System Commander to prevent MBR overwrites.
Not if Windows Update replaces System Commander itself, in which case you have to run System Commander's installer again after any update. (Remember LILO [pineight.com]?)
Re:Cannot 'format /s' a 'subst'ed drive (Score:1)
For the low-reflectivity problem, use some CD-R's, or, if it's a REALLY old CD-ROM drive, some black CD-R's (indistinguishable, reflectivity-wise, from pressed CD's). Or use a pressed-CD *NIX distro and load up some PCMCIA Ethernet drivers.
For Roxio, and by extension the overwritten-bootloader problem*, try this [aol.com]. Of course, the real solution is to replace Roxio....
For moving files around, boot into Windows or [insert OS here], run Lin4Win/VMWare/BeOS Guest off a burned or pressed CD, and *poof* you have drivers for your PCMCIA ethernet card.
As for your disparaging comments about my suggestion of an IDE dongle, remember that a floppy goes inside the case, too. If they have a machine that old, they should learn to understand that sometimes maintenance needs to be performed the old-fashioned way, with a screwdriver. My P-150 Linux box has a screwdriver lying next to it as we speak.
For copying from old desktop computers, install a second HD (or an NVRAM dongle) and Norton Ghost. Or, if you've got a lot of them to do, get a standalone HD duplicator.
If you've got an old laptop that can't boot El Torito's, then keep a disk in the drive that loads CD drivers and/or boots the CD. Keep the drive near the machine, or in it. No other computers need a drive this way.
*: Since I was solving that problem with an El Torito CD, fixing Roxio fixes that problem, as well.
Jouster
Thank you, but... (Score:2)
I thought you were actually interested in answers, not just in insulting those who bother to answer your questions.
I am interested in answers. I was just pointing out why the solutions you gave would not exactly work in my situation. I'm sorry if I came off that way.
For the low-reflectivity problem, use some CD-R's
That solves the problem. I'll have to see whether I can put FreeDOS onto a business card CD-R.
Thank you for suggesting 'diskflop' to emulate a floppy on Windows NT 4.0. But it's listed as an NT 4.x driver; have you got it to work in Windows 2000, which is NT 5.0, or under Windows XP, which is NT 5.1? And do you have anything for Windows 9x?
Of course, the real solution is to replace Roxio....
What CD creation package do you recommend for Windows? Is Ahead's Nero Burning ROM better?
If you've got an old laptop that can't boot El Torito's, then keep a disk in the drive that loads CD drivers and/or boots the CD. Keep the drive near the machine, or in it. No other computers need a drive this way.
Once I have booted FreeDOS from a floppy (and copied it to the HD for those laptops that can't physically accept a floppy drive and a CD drive on the same boot), is there a way to load an El Torito disk image from a CD within DOS and run it?
Ethernet has a limited range (Score:2)
They invented PCMCIA Ethernet cards and crossover cables
So that covers moving files from laptops once you have managed to somehow boot them. But what about desktop computers? The freight to ship a desktop computer to a place where it will be within the maximum cable length of 10BASE-T Ethernet is almost as expensive as just buying a CD recorder. Is there a less expensive solution?
By the way, how does one boot an old non-El Torito laptop without using a floppy? The ATA solutions don't work because laptops typically have only one bootable ATA connector, and once the machine is on, the hard drive can't be hot-swapped in.