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Bob Young Responds Personally, Not Officially

Posted by Roblimo on Wed Apr 11, 2001 11:00 AM
from the letting-down-what-hair-he-has-left dept.
Bob Young prefaces his answers to your questions by saying, "You may notice I've ducked some of the answers below - there is a reason for this. My role at Red Hat these days is as Chairman of the board. Matthew Szulik is Red Hat's CEO and will be a better person to answer some of the specific issues that these questions raise....
"I have been spending more of my time recently working with Laurie Racine and her team at the Center for the Public Domain, www.centerpd.org. The Center's goal is to help improve the quality of the debate on Intellectual Property issues in the public arena. Our support of ibiblio.org (formerly Sunsite and Metalab) is just one example of the kinds of things we are doing to improve the ecosystem that makes up open source in specific and the public domain of knowledge generally.

"My answers will not be "official" Red Hat policy (that would be Matthew's job), or even the Center's official positions, but rather my personal take on the answers to your questions."

------------

Do you think a recession will help RedHat/Linux?
by donturn

Bob,

We had an Ask Slashdot a few days ago wondering whether a recession will help Linux or not. Since you're the CEO of RedHat, you probably have a better idea as to what effect a recession will have on RedHat and Linux. So, do you think you will gain more market share during a recession than you would otherwise?

Bob:

As above, I haven't been CEO of Red Hat for quite a while now (which is why Red Hat Inc is doing so well - but that's another story ;-) but here's my take on that question:

Back in the early days of Red Hat we used to sit around debating how we were going to get MIS directors to take us seriously, when one of our directors, Frank Batten Jr (now involved with open source database company Great Bridge) would insist that we shouldn't be trying to sell the MIS directors at all. He insisted we should focus our sales efforts on the CFOs (Chief Financial Officers).

His logic was simply that the open source price/performance ratio was simply so much better than the proprietary software vendors that the CFO's would eventually override the MIS dept's preference for the safe, tried and true, binary-only proprietary software model they were used to, and require that they consider open source alternatives.

In a strong economy the CFOs were willing to fund the MIS directors budgets. In a slowing economy CFO's start to scrutinize every expense much more carefully. The existence of the lower cost open source alternatives are going to be very attractive to many companies who are currently paying millions of dollars of royalties to software upgrades they really would rather not have to purchase.

Who decides what goes in and how?
by Can

I'd like some insight on how the decision is made to include something in Red Hat Linux, how quickly to roll in new releases of software, etc.

For example, I've seen pre-releases of KDE get included and updated in rawhide (and I believe in actual Red Hat releases) rather often, but even the individual GNOME components are almost never updated until well after a full stable release is announced. There are other examples, but that's the main one that comes to mind.

There also still seems to be a lot of 0.x version software in Red Hat to this day. So, I'm just curious how you make these technical decisions.

Bob:

There is no one method. It varies depending on which component of Red Hat Linux is involved, and what the development community around that component's advice to us is. Ask Slashdot to arrange an interview with one of our engineering leaders and you'll get better answers than I can give.

But... "There also still seems to be a lot of 0.x version software in Red Hat to this day" .. is a -much- smaller issue than it used to be. It was only a few years ago that we used to ship beta code as part of our official releases simply because there were so few alternatives.

Today the primary reason we ship any beta code is so that the community of users who rely on Red Hat get more insight into where our technology is going and more opportunity to help influence what it does, how it does it, and how reliable future releases will be. Keep in mind that a big percentage of Red Hat users and developers still, to this day, do not have reliable high speed access and rely on CD-Roms as the source of the sources.

Would you really recommend it for desktop use?
by update()

I'm a Linux enthusiast and contributor but I still don't see where it's "ready for the desktop" as I would understand that phrase.

Bob, if you had a non-technical friend or relative who currently uses Windows, Quicken, Office, IE and AOL, could you in good conscience tell him it would be in his best interest to use Linux instead? What exactly would be in it for him?

Bob:

Er, -I- am that non-technical friend, and I use a Red Hat Linux-based desktop exclusively.

The real answer to your question goes like this: No one (other than maybe some Slashdot reader) buys operating systems. People buy applications and then chose the operating system that best runs those applications. If you need to do desktop publishing you may go into a CompUSA store, find a copy of Aldus Pagemaker and then read on the side of the box that it runs on Windows or MacOS so you buy a computer with one of those OSes to run your app.

If you work as I do: on the net (Netscape) including all the net-based apps that I can run from my browser, reading email (exmh), and printing the occasional Word file (Applixware), you can do all these things on a Linux box every bit as easily and a great deal more reliably than on any of the 1980s legacy OSes. On the other hand if you need some application that only runs on Windows you may have problems with a Linux-only computer.

Fortunately, the future of the desktop is not in the 1980s applications that required you to load the application yourself, run it, back it up, and otherwise play sys-admin to your own computer. The future of the desktop will be using Internet appliances where the applications will sit out on the net (or your corporate Intranet) and you just download the small pieces that allow you to use those applications without having to take responsibility for them. Your sys-admin will not have to walk down the hall to have hands-on access to your machine. He or she may be in Australia and will support your machine remotely. This model requires a "real" operating system and will spell the end to a lot of the OS lock-in that all the Windows 95 and 98-based apps on the shelves of CompUSA represent.

Why invest in RedHat?
by Merk

RedHat has the biggest name recognition of all the Linux distributions. To many non-tech types Linux == RedHat. And you are now breaking even, yet despite that RedHat's stock went from $80 a share to less than $5 and there doesn't seem to be a sign of that turning around.

What do you say to people who ask why they should invest in RedHat? Also, as a high-tech company I'm sure employees got stock options, how are they dealing with the crash in share prices and how do you convince them their options are still worth something?

Bob:

As I've been preaching to anyone who would listen since long before Red Hat went public, Red Hat is a good investment if you believe that the proprietary binary-only software model as practiced by most of the software industry today is broken.

It is broken in that it does not conform to what customers expect from suppliers in free-market democracies, namely that the customer is normally in control of the customer-vendor relationship. It is only in the software industry, as this industry has evolved over the last thirty years, where the vendor is in control of his customers in an almost feudal way.

In the middle ages the feudal system was based on the ruling classes keeping the population under absolute control by not giving them any insight into the laws they were governed under. In effect you could be thrown into jail for breaking a law, and the policing authority did not have to tell you what law you broke or why it was in place.

Software users today are prohibited from making any changes to the software that they are building their organizations around, whether to add features their users desperately need, or stop their servers from crashing unexpectedly, or to patch a security hole, completely arbitrarily. In fact they can be thrown in jail for improving the systems they are using. If you don't believe me just read any shrink-wrapped proprietary software license.

Changing this industry is not going to happen overnight. So buying a portfolio of open source companies stocks, including Red Hat, may not pay off in the short term, or it might -- I'm not an expert on the stock market. But open source is solving a major structural problem in the software industry on behalf of the consumers of the products of that industry. The companies who enable this change to occur on behalf of their customers are going to be good investments in the long term.

Your impressions on the recent MS Interview
by Amoeba

[Earlier] on Slashdot we got responses from an interview of MS exec Doug Miller and he touched upon some areas of Linux that caused a lot of debate and discussion in the forum. My question to you is, would you skim through Doug's reponses and provide us with your counterarguments or comments?

Bob:

Doug Miller and I go way back. All I can say is how disappointed I am that Doug has joined the "dark side". He is a really decent human being.

He used to provide the exact opposite answers to the ones he provided in that interview and he did so with much more conviction.

(Sorry Doug.)

Also see 9 below.

Mandrake
by Xenex

Linux-Mandrake started off simply as basically a copy of Red Hat Linux with KDE installed (which was the most advanced desktop environment at that time). However since 'growing' from Red Hat, it has become a distibution of it's own, with a incredibly simple install, more features/applications (ReiserFS, more intergrated Gnome/KDE menu...), Pentium optimised applications, and generally is more 'bleeding edge'.

How do you feel about the fact that Red Hat Linux was 'the womb' of what would now have to be considered one of the strongest Linux distros for the desktop, and a major competitior to Red Hat on the desktop with it's claimed "99% Red Hat compatibility"?

Bob:

Mandrake is a great example of why open source is so valuable for the user of software.

The software using marketplace is not a simple single market. It is a vast collection of markets. Software developers who need good C and Java compilers are as different from dentists who need good dental office billing systems as two markets can get.

If Mandrake do their job properly they will serve some market(s) better than Red Hat does.

So for all those potential Linux-users who might not use Red Hat Linux because it does not include some application that they need, or support in a language Red Hat does not offer, we can point them to Mandrake.

The result is more choice in the marketplace. The customer wins, which is the whole point.

Security
by Rupert

Recently we've seen several worms attacking vulnerabilities in the default install of Red Hat Linux. What is being done to make the default installation more newbie-friendly from a security point of view? The average desktop user probably doesn't want or need BIND, do they?

Bob:

I have to duck this one. Security deserves precise and detailed answers and I'm not qualified to give them.

Other than to say the price of security is eternal vigilance.

Also, you should check out Red Hat Network. (www.redhat.com)

Competing against MacOSX
by banky

With MacOSX arriving as a desktop Unix (more or less) backed by a known, (sometimes) respected name, do you consider Apple to be a serious competitor, the same as Microsoft? Would Red Hat ever consider a PPC release to try and steer people away from MacOSX? Or, instead, do you think Apple will remain largely a niche player, but one that adds weight to the all-purpose viability of Unix?

Bob:

"Apple will remain largely a niche player, but one that adds weight to the all-purpose viability of Unix."

This is -exactly- what I think. Go to the head of the class.

Standardization
by milo_Gwalthny

Bob -

Doug Miller, a Microsoft executive, was recently interviewed for Slashdot. Many of the questions posed were regarding the competitiveness of Linux with Windows in the medium-term. To paraphrase, Doug said that there was no viable business model based on Linux, that the lack of standardization (ie. KDE v. Gnome) would be enough of an economic disincentive to commercial application developers to prevent them from venturing into the market.

On the face of it, he seems to have a point. What do you think? Does Linux need to be herded down the path towards a super-majority recognized 'standard' to be successful, or can the type of open-source movement to date provide enough tools and applications to drive Linux to dominance?

Bob:

Saying that there is no business model to open source is like saying there is no business model to democracy.

Miller's arguments are red herrings thrown to distract the debate from the real issues. The real issue is not standards or technical compatibility with specific pieces of binary-only software. In an open source world compatibility is not dependent on whether a binary-only supplier adopts the standard as written or not. Whoever is trying to achieve compatibility simply has to check the sources. So the games that the binary-only proprietary software vendors play with standards go away. The real issue is where are the innovations of the next generation going to come from. The Millers of this world think that their employers should have preferential rights on offering those innovations.

This control over future innovation is being assisted by the trend in our legislatures worldwide to expand Intellectual Property (patents and copyrights, otherwise known as government granted monopolies) rights. These enable corporations to maximize their profits at the expense of the citizens in our society and are not just bad for our democracy, it is bad for business.

Let me be clear: Intellectual Property rights (IP) such as patents and copyrights are good things. But like anything in life too much of a good thing no longer is good. Too little vitamin D and you get bone diseases. Too much vitamin D will kill you. IP can be useful to independent inventors to protect their invention from being copied and marketed by larger distributors without compensation to the inventor. But today IP is mostly used by the armies of lawyers employed by the largest technology and publishing companies to squash potential competitors who don't have access to equivalent legal resources.

Just one example: For the first hundred years of copyright, copyright terms lasted less than 20 years. In the last 40 years copyright has been extended to 70 years plus the lifetime of the author. How government granted monopolies, justified as a means for providing incentive to authors to create additional works, achieves that goal *70 years after the author's death* mystifies me.

Needless to say this change in the structure of the rules that govern our society was not promoted by authors. It was promoted by the people who truly benefit from the extended IP rules, namely the publishers. Why we as a society are so keen to reward global publishing companies at the expense of the authors, musicians, researchers, artists, software developers, inventors, innovators, and entrepreneurs is another mystery.

All of these groups, in fact our society in general relies on the public access to knowledge. For every Metallica who worries that they will not be well enough paid for their next album there are literally hundreds of thousands of musicians whose ability to create and perform is being gradually eroded by the additional IP rules being imposed on us by our elected officials in the name of supporting the technology and publishing industries.

(For more detail on this check out www.centerpd.org.)

Giving the major global publishing and technology companies ever-greater government granted monopolies on vast definitions of technology (think "one-click" patents on a website) is inconsistent with how free-market democracies are supposed to work. Then arguing, as Miller does, that any alternative model cannot be legitimate because it does not generate the monopoly profits his employer collects would be a joke - if were not for so many of our legislators buying this line of reasoning.

I don't want to discourage you from writing to your representative, or your member of parliament, they need to hear from you. But here's a more positive thought on this topic: The cool thing about free-market democracies is that the citizens are the consumers. So you can sometimes solve societal problems in the marketplace. This is where Red Hat's and the rest of the open source suppliers opportunity lies.

Linux and open source is succeeding simply because it works in the customers interest better than the proprietary binary-only model does. It gets around the innovation deadening impact of software patents. It avoids the creativity sapping effect of locking up knowledge and expression behind 70 year copyrights.

While open source may not be a business model any more than democracy is a business model, it is possible to use open source to serve your customers better than the competition. Matthew Szulik and his team have driven Red Hat from revenues of less than $15 million when we went public 21 months ago, to over $100 million today with gross margins in excess of 55%.

On one thing Doug Miller and I agree: serving your customers is how you build great companies. I just don't see how locking your customers into inflexible binary-only proprietary technologies over which they have no control can be defined as serving them. I guess we still have some work to do getting the word out that there is a more robust, reliable and economic way to use technology, it's called open source.

Red Hat Acquisitions
by Kostya

I noticed that while Red Hat was valued highly, Red Hat used its funding to purchase companies like Cygnus and C2Net. Escpecially with the purchase of Cygnus, you appear to be consildating the infrastructure that makes linux viable commercially. One could conjecture that you are trying to provide developer tools and resources, both as a product and as a way to build into Linux (as in the motto "it is the developers/ISVs stupid!"). Red Hat is currently valued much lower than it was at the top of the hype, but one could argue that these (and other) strategic acquisitions give Red Hat an edge over the competition or the chance at surviving the tech stock maelstrom.

Q: How do you see these acquisitions as helping Red Hat and its position in the market?

Bob:

In general the answer to the above is: yes. As in, yes we see the need to offer comprehensive and high quality development tools as extremely important to the future of the platform we are promoting.

The only point to be clear on is who we see as competition. Red Hat's success to date has been due to our focus on the real competition. When we started the whole Linux/open source market was not big enough to pay our credit card bills, much less the rent.

So we new we had to take customers from the established industry leaders. We knew we could do this by delivering benefits that those billion dollar competitors were not willing to offer their customers.

This benefit was the control over the technology we were asking them to invest in, that open source enabled us to deliver.

Which is why we don't see Mandrake as the competition. We have products and services we can sell to a Mandrake user. The same is not true of the big binary-only proprietary software suppliers.

Hardware support
by wowbagger

Unfortunately, most hardware vendors support Microsoft because MS has the largest share of the market and they know it will pay to support MS with drivers.

Linux is not in that state, save for (perhaps) networking devices. Has RedHat considered helping to fund driver development for other forms of hardware? I'm thinking mostly of 3D accelerated video cards (by helping to fund the DRI group), but other items (scanners, USB- IDE interfaces, etc.) would be nice too.

Bob:

Yup, this has historically been a problem. Red Hat (and many of the other leading Linux distributors) has contributed drivers, and has contributed development resources to other device driver developers.

But more and more manufacturers recognize that they will sell more of their boards, add-ons, peripherals, and systems if they make the small effort of ensuring that it will run the latest Linux kernel and libraries. For example HP is now actively writing open source Linux printer drivers for the popular HP printers.

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  • OT Reply by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:27AM
  • Re: Young on the Doug Miller Interview. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:04AM
  • Re:7.1 went gold by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @10:25AM
  • 7.1 by Micah (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:25AM
  • Re:Helping each other out by rodgerd (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:04PM
  • Re:I think this question was missed... by rodgerd (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:08PM
  • Re:Hardware by jandrese (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:11AM
  • Re:Wienerschnitzel by On Lawn (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:40AM
  • Weinerschnitsel by On Lawn (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:24AM
  • Re:Software as a service by sjames (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @01:53PM
  • Thanks Bob by zonker (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:06AM
  • by Enahs (1606) on Wednesday April 11 2001, @10:56AM (#298737) Journal
    Heh, I had an HP rep try to claim I'd voided the warranty on my Deskjet by using it with an unsupported OS. Pissed me off real good, that did.
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by iabervon (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @12:22PM
  • Re:šNot if you want to run Q3A by iabervon (Score:1) Wednesday April 18 2001, @12:26PM
  • Re:Bob, a Comma would be great! by otis wildflower (Score:1) Thursday April 12 2001, @08:02AM
  • Re:Linux IS ready for the desktop by otis wildflower (Score:1) Thursday April 12 2001, @08:04AM
  • Don't sweat KDE/Gnome competition. by ChaosDiscord (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:55AM
  • by rho (6063) on Wednesday April 11 2001, @10:38AM (#298743) Homepage Journal

    Put it in this perspective -- most people, either at home or at work, are goal-oriented, i.e. "I want to do foo", where foo is

    • Write a paper
    • Play a game
    • Send an email
    • Do my taxes

    These goals are easily met with a low-power computer that gets it's instructions and/or data from a bigger computer. They are also met by a powerful personal computer from Dell or Gateway.

    Until recently, a computer was a major investment -- upwards of $2000-3000 for a decent machine. It made sense for a PC to be a multi-use machine in the home, since multiple people had multiple goals. The business machine tended to be used solely by one person, and thus was somewhat wasteful to have a $2000 machine (which is one reason why Wintel PCs became so popular -- you could get one with no CD or sound card or network card, and save significant dollars).

    Now, a P-III with a monitor can be had for $800, and some companies managed to get VC funding based on a model of giving a computer away in return for "eyeballs". The hardware cost has dropped significantly -- significantly enough that there are many homes with multiple computers now, an extravagance unheard of just a few years ago.

    The time is ripening for NCs -- they no longer are proprietary turds designed around expensive hardware limitations -- you can put together a very nice machine for less than $500 (with the i810 motherboards) with OTS components. Mass production/purchasing can cut that even more. Now you have a real computer at a disposable price.

    The network infrastructure is growing -- cable, DSL, et. al. -- that allows for faster networking between the home and a remote server, and the cost of that is dropping (slowly, but dropping). Networks in offices are commonplace (or very cheaply added with wireless).

    All these hardware curves are meeting the user demand curve now -- the needs of users are met with cheap hardware and fast networks today. The NCs time has come, if anybody's willing to jump on it.
    "Beware by whom you are called sane."

  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by Syberghost (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:39AM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by Syberghost (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @11:40AM
  • by Wayfarer (10793) on Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:58AM (#298746) Homepage
    And who wants to run software via a browser? Sheesh, these damns apps are slow enough as it is... just how is he planning in distributing a word processor, or a powerful drawing package? Perl scripts?!? Java ?!? The general death of applets should have proven that the "apps via the web" concept was a loser... and let's not forget issues of bandwidth and security...

    Bob's idea of using Internet appliances seems to echo Microsoft's ideas for .NET and Hailstorm--though perhaps with less OS integration. What he's driving at is not running apps through a browser, or (another interpretation) running apps on a remote server. My interpretation is that he suggests the relevant parts of (modularized) applications will be downloaded from the net at runtime and executed on the local machine.

    I believe that bandwidth will not be a serious issue for corporate users, but if such applications ever make it to the private sector, I'd agree that a lot of people would need to look at bandwidth and security as a potential set of problems.

    Of course, for quite a few people I know, bandwidth can be taken care of with $50/month, and security is an issue that never comes to mind. And privacy? Well, that's a whole 'nother can of worms...

    Linux is the antithesis of central control, especially for those of us who value our independence and privacy. I don't wish Red Hat ill, but I don't expect them to find success with "apps that sit on the net."

    Yes, I'd wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment. But if Microsoft can successfully push .NET and Hailstorm to the private sector, Red Hat, Mandrake, et al. may have to follow--after all, as Bob says, their competition model (and thus potential for increased profits) is not to take customers away from other Linux companies, but to take them away from Microsoft. And if they can't provide a service that users feel is essential to their desktop experience (rented apps, having all one's private info on someone else's server, and all that good stuff), they won't be able to turn this whole mess around.


    -W-

    "Is it all journey, or is there landfall?"

  • by Kope (11702) on Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:33AM (#298747)
    Bob, you earned my respect with this answer:

    I have to duck this one. Security deserves precise and detailed answers and I'm not qualified to give them.

    Other than to say the price of security is eternal vigilance.

    There are a lot of people in Bob's position whow would have handed that question to an engineer or a technical lead and said "write me up a good sounding answer" and posted that answer as their own. Bob has the integrity to not pretend he is more technical than he is, and the intelligence to realize that good questions require hard knowledge and expertise to answer correctly.

    One of the reasons RedHat has done so well so far, in my oppinion, is that Bob clearly is not afraid to admit to not knowing the answer to every question. And in recognizing his own limitations, he is able to know what sort of talent he needs to surround himself with in order to succeed.

    There is a solid lesson here for anyone starting a business. Having a dream and a vision only gets you to the starting block. Understanding your limitations, having personal integrity, and surrounding yourself with people who you allow to take credit for their achievements will get you into the race.

    I wonder how many of the tech company failures we've seen can be attributed, more or less, to the key people in the company not knowing what they weren't experts in everything?

    Again, kudos Bob! That is the most impressive answer of this interview, and it says a great deal about you as a person that you should be proud of!

  • Re: Would you really recommend it for desktop use? by IntlHarvester (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:15AM
  • Re:I think this question was missed... by rhavyn (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:36PM
  • Re:Not Quite by ethereal (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @12:41PM
  • Re:Not Quite by ethereal (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:12PM
  • Re: Young on the Doug Miller Interview. by Zico (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @11:01AM
  • Not Quite by e_armadillo (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @12:06PM
  • Re:Not Quite by e_armadillo (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @04:53PM
  • You know computer friendly users by e_armadillo (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @05:43PM
  • Re:Future interview suggestion by ddt (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @12:06PM
  • Re:KDE/Gnome answer by Soul Brother #1 (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:08AM
  • Re:so...how does Red Hat make money again? by alienmole (Score:2) Thursday April 12 2001, @07:48PM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by Taurine (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:18PM
  • by CokeBear (16811) on Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:43AM (#298760) Homepage Journal
    For the first hundred years of copyright, copyright terms lasted less than 20 years. In the last 40 years copyright has been extended to 70 years plus the lifetime of the author. How government granted monopolies, justified as a means for providing incentive to authors to create additional works, achieves that goal *70 years after the author's death* mystifies me.

    This is the point we need to focus on, to drive home. Make this simple point to your congresscritter, senator, anyone with power who will listen. This is what its all about folks.

    I don't see how anyone can justify any kind of copyright, patent, or any other IP protection after the author is dead. The only reason for this is to line the pockets of the RIAA, MPAA, and OEAAs. (Other Evil Arbitrary Acronymns). Give the rights back to the authors and artists! (Now that we have an effective means of distribution, we can cut out *all* the middlemen, and get stuff directly from the creator to the consumer.)

  • Concise! by ravage (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:55AM
  • Re:Weinerschnitsel (more off-topic) by platypus (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @10:34AM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by Ian Lance Taylor (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:35AM
  • If you want more Linux drivers... by Larry_Dillon (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:34AM
  • Interesting (Score:5)

    by watanabe (27967) on Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:12AM (#298765)
    Although I liked Bob better than Doug, (Doug was a bit too clever at redirecting questions toward blase positive sounding answers), I am interested that Bob considers opening Microsoft Word documents as a major desktop need.

    I find that, even with utilities like antiword and abiword, I cannot really keep up with the MS-Office ratrace in a way that works perfectly for our customers. I would like to be able to edit these documents, annotate them, view excel spreadsheets and powerpoint files, etc. as well as just read word files.

    Even for word files, the extra hassle of downloading the attachments, piping them through antiword, and then printing feels is not insignificant, compared to clicking to open in Outlook.Outlook is still a killer app for large businesses; the productivity plus scheduling capabilities are truly excellent.

    If Redhat is truly competing in a market where applications drive OS purchase, I would like to hear more from Bob on how Redhat is supporting and developing these applications. It seems to me that companies like Eazel and Ximian are where the real value drivers are for Linux, according to his argument. Or even Corel (!).

  • Re:Helping each other out by xtinct (Score:1) Saturday April 14 2001, @09:25AM
  • Re: Would you really recommend it for desktop use? by dagarath (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @12:08PM
  • Wienerschnitzel by mjpaci (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:31AM
  • Re:Wienerschnitzel by mjpaci (Score:1) Thursday April 12 2001, @07:06AM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by spankenstein (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:40PM
  • Re:The most important point in that interview: by look (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:55AM
  • Re:KDE/Gnome answer by kettch (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @10:35AM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by Malcontent (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @12:25PM
  • Re:The most important point in that interview: by Anopheles (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:19AM
  • Re:so...how does Red Hat make money again? by hopeless case (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @01:26PM
  • Re:so...how does Red Hat make money again? by hopeless case (Score:1) Thursday April 12 2001, @02:58AM
  • It is interesting that Red Hat's revenues have grown to $100 million from $15 million before the IPO. There was little other information given in the interview, however, about where the bulk of Red Hat's revenue comes from.

    The standard explanation has been that Red Hat sells service. It that mainly helping people install Red Hat on their computers for desktop use? Or more complex tech support issues?

    It would be nice to see a breakdown on where most of their money is coming from.
  • Re:KDE/Gnome answer by ncaustin (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:32AM
  • Re:Copyright time by ncaustin (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @10:26AM
  • since drivers and such came up in the interview... by laslo2 (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:20AM
  • Re:Helping each other out by oddjob (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:20AM
  • Re:The most important point in that interview: by Caball (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:03AM
  • Re:The most important point in that interview: by Caball (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @06:01PM
  • Re:Hardware support by ikekrull (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:30PM
  • Re:Interesting by psykocrime (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @12:13PM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by ktakki (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:17PM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by java.bean (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:30PM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by lizrd (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:46AM
  • Re:The most important point in that interview: by euclid manatee (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:39AM
  • Hardware support by wowbagger (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @01:46PM
  • Copyright time by nuggz (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:36AM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by glindsey (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:00AM
  • Off topic, but you asked... by FirstEdition (Score:1) Thursday April 12 2001, @05:51AM
  • Re:The most important point in that interview: by Ozwald (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:43AM
  • My applications do sit on the 'net by kimihia (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:10PM
  • Re:The most important point in that interview: by j-beda (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @12:27PM
  • by FattMattP (86246) on Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:51AM (#298797) Homepage
    Why don't you read their financial statements? They'll detail exactly how they made their money and how much.

    http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ti cker=RHAT&script=2100&layout=-6 [corporate-ir.net]

  • Re: Would you really recommend it for desktop use? by meanman (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @12:22PM
  • Re:I think this question was missed... by RGRistroph (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @10:07AM
  • legacy? by graniteMonkey (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @10:25AM
  • Re:Software as a service by naasking (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:33AM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by drchrisharris (Score:1) Thursday April 12 2001, @03:05AM
  • Re:The most important point in that interview: by ahde (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:43PM
  • Re:The computers in the OSU labs are like this by shandrew (Score:1) Thursday April 12 2001, @12:52AM
  • Re:Hardware by shandrew (Score:1) Thursday April 12 2001, @01:06AM
  • Re:Helping each other out by jorbettis (Score:1) Friday April 13 2001, @07:22AM
  • Pagemaker by andy@petdance.com (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:11AM
  • Re:I think this question was missed... by Master Bait (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:30AM
  • Linux IS ready for the desktop by MrResistor (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @11:27AM
  • Re:Not Quite by MrResistor (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @01:38PM
  • balkanization? Bring on the tanks! by oliphaunt (Score:1) Friday April 13 2001, @12:42PM
  • Helping each other out by donglekey (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:28AM
  • šNot if you want to run Q3A by yerricde (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:57PM
  • šUpgradable game consoles by yerricde (Score:1) Thursday April 12 2001, @08:26PM
  • OS-independent realtime messaging? Not with AIM by yerricde (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:43PM
  • Hi bob! by SpanishInquisition (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:00AM
  • Bob, a Comma would be great! by xee (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @05:33PM
  • Re:Here's a guy to respect by alanjstr (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @11:56AM
  • Re:an observation by prisoner (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:08AM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by Rysc (Score:1) Thursday April 12 2001, @02:50AM
  • Re:so...how does Red Hat make money again? by hunterm (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @01:29PM
  • Re:The Web is driving the market by Andrewkov (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:15PM
  • Gadgets? by chip_hk (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:11AM
  • Re:Future interview suggestion by Salsaman (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:23AM
  • Re:If you want more Linux drivers... by starseeker (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @05:56PM
  • Re:Balkanization by NoMaster (Score:1) Thursday April 12 2001, @01:25PM
  • Re:If you want more Linux drivers... by MasterOfMuppets (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:51AM
  • Re:The most important point in that interview: by edinho (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @12:01PM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by kel-tor (Score:1) Thursday April 12 2001, @05:43AM
  • David vs Goliath by pokrefke (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:14AM
  • Re:šNot if you want to run Q3A by cyber-vandal (Score:2) Thursday April 12 2001, @07:58AM
  • Applications seem to be the problem... by woody_jay (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:24AM
  • Re:The Web is driving the market by zorba1 (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @11:25AM
  • by zorba1 (149815) <zorba1@@@hotmail...com> on Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:18AM (#298834)
    The real answer to your question goes like this: No one (other than maybe some Slashdot reader) buys operating systems. People buy applications and then chose the operating system that best runs those applications.
    I think at this stage of the game, the mass appeal of new PCs are because of "OS-independent" applications, such as browsing the WWW, e-mail, ICQ/AIM, etc. A combination of market pervasiveness, familiarity, and majority exposure drives these customers to pick a Windows PC over a Mac/Linux box.
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by John Paul Jones (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:42AM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by John Paul Jones (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:14AM
  • by connorbd (151811) on Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:05AM (#298837) Homepage
    No, oft-failed is correct. The dumb terminal's run is the closest anyone's ever come to a viable network computer, and these days it's easier (though maybe not necessarily cheaper?) to buy last year's PC to do the job. And then there was Minitel, but that never saw the light of day outside France.

    Since then we've seen Videotex, X terminals, Diskless Workstations, Network Computers (aka thin clients), email stations, and Audrey, all failures. Not to mention dedicated word processors, which were useful for a while as portable typewriter replacements but now have zero visibility on the market. You take this all back to the beginning of the whole Videotex thing and you realize that it hasn't happened yet, and it ain't going to.

    The thin client market has always thrived on necessity. You can't give everyone their own PDP-11? Get a shopping-cart-full of VT100s and put one on every desk in the office. You can't afford that new Compaq/Commodore SX-64/Osborne (or just can't fit it on your tray table)? We got these nifty dedicated word processors (but even then you had the Tandy 100, the first great laptop). When the PC became sufficiently cheap, the thin client market became rather meaningless for most people. (Note I say most -- while a dedicated word processor is probably more trouble than it's worth, there's something to be said for an email station in the kitchen, and of course let's not forget the ultimate thin client, the PDA.)

    No doubt the computer industry wants to see the thin client model back -- if nothing else it's a way for IT departments to feel important and yet give them less crap to deal with (after all, since when does an Xterminal come with a cupholder :-) ). But the fact is that it simply doesn't seem to be worth most people's while today, and until a point comes where an absolutely essential service appears but happens to be financially bottlenecked, we won't see network computers succeed.

    /Brian
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by cmat (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:18AM
  • Re:KDE/Gnome answer by Lord Ender (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @03:50PM
  • by Lord Ender (156273) on Wednesday April 11 2001, @03:41PM (#298840) Homepage
    At The Ohio State University, the computers in our computer labs are like this. Well they, from what I can figure out, are some kind of HP Xwindow terminals. So I am sure they are a breeze to admin! And from them we can either log into our accounts on the solaris server or log into NT4. All this is done over the network. I had never heard of using NT4 over an X terminal but it works great! They dont have to buy hundreds of full computers this way.

    I think Bob here's got a point that this will become much more popular in the future.

  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by rtscts (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @03:50PM
  • I am not sure this question was missed... by dilvish_the_damned (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @11:05PM
  • by FortKnox (169099) on Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:07AM (#298843) Homepage Journal
    Can you guys attempt to get a game designer (richard gariott, or warren spector, or sid meier, etc...) for a future /. interview. There's been good interviews lately, and I'd like to ask some questions to the gaming gods.

    Just a suggestion :-)
  • Software as a service by dannywyatt (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:24AM
  • Re:Software as a service by dannywyatt (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:29AM
  • Re:OT Reply by dannywyatt (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:41AM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by dannywyatt (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:49AM
  • Re:OT Reply by Golias (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @10:12AM
  • Hardware by Fervent (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:43AM
  • Balkanization by Alien54 (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:29AM
  • Re: Would you really recommend it for desktop use? by RedWizzard (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @03:24PM
  • Damn! by fantom_winter (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:30AM
  • Re:I think this question was missed... by sulli (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:23PM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by sulli (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:36PM
  • Re:I think this question was missed... by sulli (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @10:48AM
  • Re:I think this question was missed... by sulli (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:31PM
  • by ChaoticCoyote (195677) on Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:27AM (#298857) Homepage
    The future of the desktop will be using Internet appliances where the applications will sit out on the net (or your corporate Intranet) and you just download the small pieces that allow you to use those applications without having to take responsibility for them.

    Does Bob really believe what he's said above?

    Does this remind anyone else (other than me) of the oft-failed concept of the network computer? This seems to come up every few years -- it's back to the future time, as companies try to restore the days of dumb terminals and mainframes. Sure, the processing is now distributed, but the fundamental problem remains: People simply aren't comfortable with having their software residing on another machine. The idea has failed several times under various guises; what makes Bob Young and Microsoft (as in Hailstorm) think this idea is going to work now? Maybe Red Hat needs to find a scheme for making money, since selling a free product isn't working all that well.

    Okay, I can see the MIS director loving this idea, and (as someone who managed a couple-hundred PC network) I see advantages to centralized application distribution and data storage on a corporate intranet. But such a scheme simply doesn't work for the Internet, where privacy and data security are very important to individual and otherwise disconnected people.

    And who wants to run software via a browser? Sheesh, these damns apps are slow enough as it is... just how is he planning in distributing a word processor, or a powerful drawing package? Perl scripts?!? Java ?!? The general death of applets should have proven that the "apps via the web" concept was a loser... and let's not forget issues of bandwidth and security...

    Linux is the antithesis of central control, especially for those of us who value our independence and privacy. I don't wish Red Hat ill, but I don't expect them to find success with "apps that sit on the net."

    --
    Scott Robert Ladd
    Master of Complexity
    Destroyer of Order and Chaos

  • by Monkeyman334 (205694) on Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:47AM (#298858) Homepage
    On this paragraph, talking about choices and compatability (ex, KDE and Gnome):

    On one thing Doug Miller and I agree: serving your customers is how you build great companies. I just don't see how locking your customers into inflexible binary-only proprietary technologies over which they have no control can be defined as serving them. I guess we still have some work to do getting the word out that there is a more robust, reliable and economic way to use technology, it's called open source.

    He kinda missed the point. It's obvious that choices are good. You got vanilla, you got strawberry. But the point the MS guy was trying to make was that it's not cost effective, from the MS view. And not worth it to develop the same thing twice for KDE and Gnome. Do you guys think that it's worth it?
  • Get Matthew Szulik here to answer by mami (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:34AM
  • Family by Planesdragon (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:20AM
  • Re:Interesting by ignavus (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @03:30PM
  • Re:The Web is driving the market by platos_beard (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @10:53AM
  • Re:David vs Goliath by gailwynand (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @11:46AM
  • by update() (217397) on Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:36AM (#298864) Homepage
    I have to admit, I was expecting some nonsense about how AbiWord and Kspread are superior to MS Office that I could snidely dismiss. The answer was more interesting than I would have thought even if I don't really buy it.

    The real answer to your question goes like this: No one (other than maybe some Slashdot reader) buys operating systems. People buy applications and then chose the operating system that best runs those applications.

    True.

    If you work as I do: on the net (Netscape) including all the net-based apps that I can run from my browser, reading email (exmh), and printing the occasional Word file (Applixware), you can do all these things on a Linux box every bit as easily and a great deal more reliably than on any of the 1980's legacy OSes.

    I dunno about that - do people really do significant amounts of office work with net-based apps? Maybe they do. Everyone complains about web content they can't view without Windows IE but I never encounter any. Maybe I'm just a Luddite.

    Of course, there's also the usual insinuation of "Windows crashes every five minutes." that is untrue (especially compared to doing heavyweight work in Netscape or Mozilla in Linux) but you can't really hold that against him. ;-)

    The part about "the future of the desktop" is a bit more plausible, although it doesn't address the question of "Why would my grandfather want to use Linux today?"

    Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.

  • Re:Applications seem to be the problem... by Dan93 (Score:1) Thursday April 19 2001, @08:39PM
  • Re:Future interview suggestion by mike260 (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @03:00PM
  • Re:so...how does Red Hat make money again? by teatime (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:43PM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by jo42 (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @01:06PM
  • Sweat KDE/Gnome competition when you must... by virg_mattes (Score:1) Friday April 20 2001, @07:35AM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by Neumann (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:24AM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by Rick BigNail (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @10:56AM
  • Re:Interesting by Rick BigNail (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @11:38AM
  • Re:Did you ask the right guy? by Rick BigNail (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @11:59AM
  • Re:legacy? by Rick BigNail (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @12:07PM
  • Re:Interesting by Rick BigNail (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @01:00PM
  • Re:I think this question was missed... by Rick BigNail (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @01:59PM
  • Re:I think this question was missed... by Rick BigNail (Score:1) Tuesday April 17 2001, @08:18AM
  • Re:I think this question was missed... by Rick BigNail (Score:1) Tuesday April 17 2001, @08:28AM
  • Re:Dark side? by Rick BigNail (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @12:41PM
  • Re:KDE/Gnome answer by Pheersum (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @05:35PM
  • Red Hat will lose ground in the desktop market. by LordArathres (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:47AM
  • by dodson (248550) on Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:52AM (#298882)
    If Linux will profit from a economic downturn I would expect the concept of network computers should see a resurgence for the same reasons.

    Projects like the Linux Terminal Server Project http://www.ltsp.org/index.php are already providing similar solutions.

  • Re:Weinerschnitsel (more off-topic) by markmoss (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:54AM
  • Re:Back to the Future, Again by markmoss (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @10:37AM
  • Slashdotters always backwards by tortap-0 (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:20AM
  • Re:Dark side? by Bobo_the_Chimp (Score:2) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:46AM
  • Re:Future interview suggestion by terrymah (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:52AM
  • by CyberDawg (318613) on Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:59AM (#298888) Homepage

    I think it's great that he recognizes who is and who isn't significant competition for RedHat.

    Let's do the math here. Let's say he finds a RedHat competitor that makes $10M per year selling a Linux distro. Through targeted, aggressive marketing, he takes away half their business. He's just increased RedHat's sales by 5%.

    Now let's say he targets Microsoft. If he takes away just a tiny fraction of Microsoft's business, he can increase RedHat by 100% or more.

    Never target the little competitors (unless you're the big guy and you want to prevent them from challenging you). Always target the big guys. As Willy Sutton might say-- that's where the money is.

  • IP rights are enhanced by corrupt politicians by Just_Another (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:33AM
  • Re:Pagemaker by Chakat (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:18AM
  • Re:Software as a service by flacco (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:58PM
  • Re:Software as a service by flacco (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:05PM
  • Re:Unanswered questions by Harka Steinhart (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @09:11AM
  • KDE/Gnome answer (Score:3)

    by fantastic (398233) on Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:43AM (#298894)
    Bob answered most questions except the standardization issue. That KDE and Gnome does hurt Linux more than it helps. Microsoft knows this which is why Doug Miller mentioned it and if there is one thing Microsoft has experience with its gui toolkits and how ISVs use them.

    We do not have the resources at my company to test KDE *and* Gnome. Its one or the other, current status is that we will not support KDE but its been a very difficult decision.

    This is reality, hopefully someone else can point
    out how they can develop for both toolkits and
    support them and be successful at it
  • If you really believe that.... by Ape8888 (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @07:58AM
  • Re:Here's a guy to respect by Computer! (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:16AM
  • Re:Interesting by Computer! (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @08:22AM
  • Re:Interesting by Computer! (Score:1) Thursday April 12 2001, @06:50AM
  • The really biggy problem with RedHat. by iron_weasel (Score:1) Wednesday April 11 2001, @02:59PM
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