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Jason Haas on LinuxPPC -- and Drunk Drivers
from the attack-of-the-Linux-Mac-people dept.
Math intensive server stuff
(Score:4, Interesting)
by drenehtsral
I'm working on (or more accurately about to start) a very math intensive client server system, where the server has to do a metric ass-load of calculations mostly on 64-bit signed integers on behalf of client machines. The data are all going to be in ram, and multi-cpu support is a good thing.
Would you recommend a PPC machine over a x86 machine for a task like this? I guess this is mainly a chipset/etc... question, but i have been unable to find that sort of information elsewhere, and i figure who better to ask, 'cause you probably have a decent gut-feeling for how the architecture works in practice on real-world data =:-)
Jason:
Wow, nothing like a nice, simple question to start your day. ;-D
If you're going to be working with 64-bit numbers, I would try to do a real-world test. That is, get Athlon, Alpha, Pentium 4, and PowerPC 7400 (G4) machines, and try some tests to see how quickly each of them handle integers that big. I know the PowerPC 7400 (G4) has an awesome vector calculation module (128-bit vector registers can be fun), but that's not the same thing as integers. The 7400 doesn't have any specialized integer units, whereas the Athlon and P4 do. (I'm pretty sure of this, but you should definitely do your homework before making any decisions based on this information.) It might be great for decompressing video, but for hard-core (sounding) tasks like handling 64-bit signed integers, I'd definitely test everything possible. Definitely try the Alpha and MIPS, too. Alpha's sort of known for handling these sorts of things.
I'd also ask on the linuxppc-devel mailing list. People that probably can help you are on that list. (http://lists.linuxppc.org/)
Re:Math intensive server stuff
(Score:5, Interesting)
by Smitty825
One other important thing to ask is the state of the GCC complier for the PowerPC Platform. IIRC, it isn't as efficient as the ones available for the x86 and Alpha platforms. How much would LinuxPPC benefit from an optimized compiler and what sort of performance could be expected from LinuxPPC compared to Linux86/Alpha/others?
Jason:
Franz Sirl, a Linux/PowerPC developer, has done a lot of work on optimizing GCC for PPC. Look at PPC vs. x86 benchmarks. Theoretically, PowerPC kicks x86's butt, but if things aren't optimized for it (as often happens in this x86 world), it may not seem like such a hot processor. With more optimization, performance should continue to improve. Again, I'd ask about this on the linuxppc-devel list.
Platform Issues
(Score:5, Interesting)
by IanCarlson
Is LinuxPPC a viable alternative to x86 Linux? Can I run my department on a LinuxPPC-based server with the same peace-of-mind that I get on an i386-based box running Linux? Will I still enjoy the almost surrealistic uptimes I get with my current Linux server? Does the LinuxPPC code still suffer from chronic flakey-ness?
I'm currently looking into obtaining a PowerPC box to test out the current state of Linux on the PPC platform.Hopefully your answers will point me down the path of RISC utopia.
Jason:
That's a good place to be. Of course it's an alternative. For some of us, it's reality. ;-) You can run on a PPC box as well as an x86 box. I know of many places that are using PPC boxes for everything from basic stuff like web servers to netatalk servers to controlling puppets. (Jim Henson's Creature Shop!) There are a lot of real world examples of Linux/PowerPC in action. We have a few in our office. Most of our servers have the same legendary uptimes that Linux is known for. Servers outside our office have them. Other people's servers have them. It's everywhere. ;-)
The PowerPC 604 is an incredibly stable processor for Linux use, and the 750 (Apple's G3) is very solid. The 7500 (G4) is getting there fast.
I'm not sure what you mean by "chronic [code] flakey-ness". Code not optimized for PPC? Yes, though not as much now. Unstable code? Yes, but that seems universal. A lot of times, it can be traced to simple things like bad RAM. Try replacing the RAM if your machine is acting quirky. It could make a big difference! (He says to an audience in which 512 MB of RAM may not be uncommon....)
ATX motherboard availability?
(Score:4, Interesting)
by glrotate
I think one thing that would foster Linux PPC adoption, and PPC in general would be a relatively cheap PPC motherboard. I remember IBM released their reference design some tine ago and there was some noise from 3rd parties about product anouncements, but nothing materialized. Does anyone know when we might see something?
Jason:
Oh, that would rock if those came into reality. I do know about it but I can't comment about it beyond saying that I hope it actually happens.
What I can say: it needs to happen.
merge with RedHat?
(Score:5, Interesting)
by A moron
I've tried LinuxPPC several times over the years and have actually been disappointed. It just hasn't seemed polished and LinuxPPC, the company, has had some serious customer service problems.
Have you ever thought about or actually talked to RedHat as making LinuxPPC the RedHat Distro for PPC?
Jason:
Yes, and I can't comment about that. In September of 2000, we committed to customer service, as things really were bad. But then, a major hunk of the company was unable to think straight, or remember what he was just about to say. (That "hunk of the company" == me!) The good news is that customer service is still a major priority, and I'm well enough that I can see to it that it stays that way, and make sure that people are helped.
Your Perception Before and After the Accident
(Score:5, Interesting)
by TheNecromancer
Jason,
First of all, I'd like to commend you and your wife for your courage and determination through your ordeal! I also hope they throw the book at the jerk who caused the accident!
My question is this: Do you find that your perception of the world and what your interests, passions and abilities are, different than before your accident? Has the accident changed your interests towards the computing industry?
Jason:
First off, thank you. :-) I've been through hell, many times. People don't know what it's like to have a traumatic brain injury, or permanently lose vision in an eye. It's not fun. ;-)
Say, Cassie (my wife) is a major hero here. Thanks to everyone who wrote in and expressed support for her. Do it some more, she'd appreciate it. ;-D
They will be throwing the book at "Jerk Boy" (my name for the ...drunk.... who hit me). He faces three felony charges, including driving under the influence and driving with intent to cause harm. Considering that he had a 0.25 BAC (blood-alchohol content), I don't know how they could defend against it.
Yes, my injuries changed a lot of things, including how I see the computing industry. Part of me realizes how big a help it's been (and at the same time a bloody pain the ass!), and part of me wants to get out of it. To me, living well (being content with your situation, loved ones, etc.) is much more important than having the latest box, biggest monitor, or best domain name is. (It was that way before, too, but now it's even more so.)
Linux and Accessibility
(Score:5, Interesting)
by FourG
During your recovery period, did you find the need to use any accessibility tools to accomplish tasks? If so, what were your impressions? Does Linux have the tools people with alternative interface needs (like text-to-speech) need to access their information?
Jason:
I didn't have any experience with that stuff, unfortunately. I think the State of Georgia's health department may have been able to help me with a bit of that, but I'm sure it all would have been for Windows or the Mac OS. (And useless to me.)
A moment of victory for me was about four months after I got hit; I was back at home, and still was able to use vi. I'm not sure what that says about the effects of a brain injury. ;-D
Altivec and MP G4's?
(Score:4, Interesting)
by esome
ok, newbie questions but:
1)How much can a PPC linux distro can benefit from Altivec optimization?
2)Does LinuxPPC enjoy the same degree of improved performance from additional processors that OS-X does?
Jason:
AltiVec: Apps that use features that AltiVec can help will benefit. The OS itself probably won't get much benefit. AltiVec was designed to help things like video and audio, things that people in Apple's markets are interested in. Linux doesn't have much software that can benefit from that. I don't know how much an AltiVec-friendly kernel or version of Apache would improve things, if at all. As Linux gets more "desktop" and "multimedia" software, AltiVec support will probably become a more interesting topic for Linux.
Oh, you could probably jigger Enlightenment to use AltiVec.. oh my...
SMP support is still improving. Until recently, there wasn't much in the way of SMP hardware out there. Before Apple introduced the multiprocessor G4s, there simply wan't that much at all. There were a number of MP PPC 604 machines, but they're no longer in production, unless you find an obscure Motorola box.
With Apple (the major PPC player) making MP boxes, MP support will improve. With Apple making boxes that have AltiVec, support for that'll improve too. Assuming that they keep using AltiVec.
Why should my next purchase be a PowerPC?
(Score:5, Interesting)
by rjh
Intel hardware is a commodity; it's cheap, there are lots of peripherals for it, you can buy individual components and build your own box easily, and prices are very low.
AFAIK (which isn't far), PowerPC hardware is mostly proprietary, controlled by Apple, is more expensive, has less variety in peripherals, and you're more or less stuck buying a Macintosh just to get your PC. Not just that, but many components of many PowerPC-based computers have marginal to no support under Linux (USB is marginal, Firewire is nonexistent right now, etc).
Given all this, where is the major win in the PowerPC? Why ought my next purchase for a PC be a PowerPC running LinuxPPC/Yellow Dog/MkLinux?
I'm not trolling here; I'm just uneducated. :) Educate me.
Jason:
Very good question! You're right: unless you get an oddity of a system, you're buying a Mac to get a PPC box. The TiVo is a Linux/PPC box, but I don't think that it can run Apache. ;-) (then again, Paul Mackerras and company have added an Ethernet card... anyway...)
For what it's worth, USB on Linux is coming a long way (printers now work, for example), and FireWire's getting there.
The advantage of PPC over x86 is/was that at a lower clock speed, you got higher performance. But 1 GHz PCs are coming out left and right, and Apple's fastest is 500 MHz. For some things, they will be the same speed. But you can get a Celery (er, Celeron) box super-cheap, with a lot more stuff that you get with an iMac. It's becoming quite difficult to have a viable alternative when you can't get a super-cheap box.
PPCs are smaller, faster, and cooler (literally and figuratively) than x86 chips. The PPC 7400 doesn't need a CPU cooling fan. Get a Mac (I'd name some other cheap PPC boxes, but there aren't any!) and you'll get a super-cool case and the cool-looking one-button optical mouse.
Where's the real advantage, though? Again, good question. As the computer world changes, and no third party desktop PPC boxes appear, it's getter harder to answer. I think the real problem here is that there are no real third-party alternatives for PPC hardware. And that needs to change. Should IBM's POP board see the light of day, ask me again, and I'll have a different answer for ya. As I said above, it needs to happen.
=---
Why to buy a Mac (Score:5)
Jason: Very good question!...PPCs are smaller, faster, and cooler (literally and figuratively) than x86 chips. The PPC 7400 doesn't need a CPU cooling fan. Get a Mac (I'd name some other cheap PPC boxes, but there aren't any!) and you'll get a super-cool case and the cool-looking one-button optical mouse. Where's the real advantage, though? Again, good question.
Though I've had limited experience with it, I like the RISC architecture because of it's tendancy to run cooler and that it's just a more efficient processor. I'd hardly say that a cool case and mouse consititute a valid reason to switch processor types
I can't see myself or anyone else justifying a purchase of a ~$3000US G4 cube with 2 500 Mhz processors compared with the ultra cheap Athlons and P3's (and 4's) now available. When Athlon motherboards support multi-processors (last I heard the chipsets were in the works, out very soon), the ability to have two, say, 800 Mhz Athlon processors just blows away the processor costs of MIPS, Alpha, and PPC, because each of those 800 Mhz Athlon processors are only a little over $100!.
What would be more interesting is to find accurate answers to the first person (Math intensive server stuff by drenehtsral) as to how the PPC does raw calculations compared to x86s of similar price, and not Mhz. There might be an advantage there.
In short, it's too bad Apple killed the clones, or we'd have cheaper PPCs to play with.
uhh.. MacOS X? (Score:4)
ok, let me get this straight: an interview with one of the leading developers of LinuxPPC and not one question that pertained to MacOS X!? did no MacOS X question get asked, or did he just ignore them?
i'd like to know, because i've tried both, and after getting used to MacOS X, i really can't see any reason to run LinuxPPC as a desktop machine. (i may pick up an old mac to run as my firewall, however. my old PC just blew up, literally; smoke and all).
but servers aside, can anybody give me any one good reason why i should use LinuxPPC over MacOS X? because i can't think of one. on my machine (B&W G3) MacOS X has been more stable, it runs my old Mac programs, it's up-to-date and compatible with all Macs, excellent SMP (i'll get a dual processor box next), and to top it all off it's got a more consistant and cleaner interface (no linux GUI i've tried has come close, and i've learned Aqua is very "tweakable").
so apart from my little firewall (that would really best be searved with FreeBSD on an x86 box), remind me again why i would have any good reason to run LinuxPPC? and "because it's GPL" doesn't count as a good reason for me, especially after Apple has "refined" the APSL.
- j
Some kernel things that AltiVec may be useful for. (Score:4)
The most obvious is optimizations to the firewalling and routing code within the kernel. The AltiVec unit has a "permute" function that allows you to generate a 128 bit vector by picking and choosing words from two other 128 bit vectors. Aparently, Motorola has built a software router around a 7400 capable of doing software routing on multiple T3s. In this situation, the AltiVec unit simply becomes a glorified switching fabric.
The second optimization that I can see would be in kernel level encryption, for doing things like IPSec and/or encrypted filesystems. If I remember correctly, this use was sugested in one of the documents available on Motorola's web site.
Esentially, if you stop thinking of the AltiVec unit as a media processor, and think it more of a parallel processing unit, you can use it for a lot of different tasks.
He's a damn hero... (Score:5)
But seriously, you gotta admire someone like Jason, not only did he pull through but he managed to keep his spirits up during the whole time and laugh (at least in ASCII) about it.
--
All browsers' default homepage should read: Don't Panic...
Defending... (Score:4)
Considering that he had a 0.25 BAC (blood-alchohol content), I don't know how they could defend against it.
Simple. Draft in the presidential-race lawyers.
[No offence meant to Mr. Haas with this... obviously, I wish him all the best, and that Jerk Boy goes down for a good few years.]
There's no difference btw real life and IT (Score:5)
Build your own PPC (Score:4)
I'm not sure if this is what I found before, but it's worth a look...
LinuxPPC v Yellow Dog (Score:4)
* Would lock or power-down on me if I booted straight "linux"; could only sucessfully do things booting to "linux-novideo". This may be a somewhat known issue, but it keeps me from using > 256 colours.
* Gnome was crap on my machine. The task bar (gnome-session?) cored every time I tried to load up X. the mouse cursor would "float" as it approached max/min/etc buttons on the window.
* KDE was better, but only somewhat. If screen blanked, palette never shifted back to normal colours.
* Since there doesn't appear to be any real "text" mode, minicom had everything shoved into an 80x25 corner of my display, leaving 2 inches of blank black space to the bottom and right.
* Could not alt-Fx between terminals. Could alt-F7 to the blank one reserved for X -- but could not get back to any other terminals.
* Other little, nagging issues.
I haven't been able to easily find information on most of these issues, either. I guess what I'm trying to say is, when Jason tells us "You can run on a PPC box as well as an x86 box", I just certainly hope this is true, and that my YDL experiences won't be repeated with in Yet Another Linux Distro. Based on what I've seen, it didn't perform or function "as well as an x86 box", and it certainly won't be easy for joe user to find ways to fix these issues.
I'm an ardent linux user. I use it almost exclusively. However, unless LinuxPPC is any better, I'm gonna to take a look at OSX or *BSD.
no Apple clones: the reason why (Score:3)
well, according to my research, the given reason why Apple pulled in the clones was because the company was consistenly operating in the red, and clones like the Radius were blamed for the serious decline of consumer purchases of Apple products. i'm not sure if that's strictly true or not, but after they pulled back the clones, the *next quarter* they posted their first fiscal gain in a year and a half.
whatever the reason for doing it, it had the desired result.
Re:Why to buy a Mac (Score:3)
With a 500Mhz PB G3 running LinuxPPC, you'll have the fastest notebook available, with impressive battery life, and the bonus of non-dongle ethernet.
Right now, that is the PPC world's only real area of advantage. (...grumble, grumble, Moto, grumble, fscking incompetent, grumble...)
If the speeds go up, then you can start looking at real price/performance advantages on the desktop again. And of course, you can always buy old hardware and stick a faster processor card in it, I've found that works really well. $300 dollar used PowerComputing box + $300 G3 card -- you get the picture.
Don Negro
Why should my next purchase be a PowerPC? (Score:5)
Indeed, even Mac 'enthusiasts' are hard pressed to find good technical reasons for buying PowerPC. Had Moto been at 900MHz by now, then, well, maybe.
But people don't necessairally start asking "What chip?". They average masses just ask "Which PC?". But they could also start asking "Which OS?" -- and this reveals one of the great potential* benefits of Linux -- that you can choose Linux first, and worry about your hardware second (as opposed to, say, the Mac, where choosing Mac OS X 'limits' you to Apple HW). And this is highly exciting for the IT industry, not to mention 'World Domination'...
For while Windows went 'everywhere' horizonatally (across all** desktops), Linux is busy going everywhere vertically (to most scales, CPUs etc.). -- So while MS has been successful keeping horizontal competition out, they are about to get vertically out-flanked.
When Linux is running on the company server, and on your PDA, the only bottleneck will be that 'troublesome' desktop running 'incompatible' Windows ;-)
Note the problem won't be what chip is in your desktop. It won't be the styling of the plastics. It'll simply be a matter of installing the right OS. And most of the time, that'll be Linux.
Is there a "Fanaticism FAQ" ?
* Potential for the masses, but real and current for those who know...
** In so far as 90% == 100%.
Re:Good enough (Score:3)
Sure, we'll probably never get to see how a mature RISC chip will perform, but even "CISC" chips are getting more RISCy. And maybe Compaq will really put some oomph behind the Alpha one of these days.
Walt
Re:LinuxPPC v Yellow Dog (kind of OT) (Score:3)
the weird thing is that my experience was the opposite. My burn of LinuxPPC2000 wouldn't install on my iMac. The RPMS were in the *wrong directory* in the CD, and I couldn't use the graphical installation because at the time my iMac (classic) had only 32 MB of ram and the installation obviously doesn't init any swap.
After copying the CD's contents to another machine that's networked with the iMac I actually setup an FTP install and that also didn't work because some packages had different names than the packages the install program searched for. I ended up renaming about 30-40 packages until I realised about 40% of the RPMs had wrong names. By this time I gave up on the install and installed YellowDog. I now use lots of packages from LinuxPPC, but to this day I haven't figured out what's wrong with that CD. This coming from an experienced Linux user.
Anywho, to your questions:
* Would lock or power-down on me if I booted straight "linux"; could only sucessfully do things booting to "linux-novideo". This may be a somewhat known issue, but it keeps me from using 256 colours.
I also had several problems in the yaboot install process. This was the first time I did a LinuxPPC install so I had to learn some stuff the hard way. The OpenFirmware setup went along fine, but some bugs like the
image = hd:,\\\\vmlinux
line in yaboot.conf (now documented in their support site; there was a typo in the official version) gave me some headaches =)
In any case, read the yaboot docs and you should be running in at most half an hour because you'll already know about the yaboot.conf bug.
* Gnome was crap on my machine. The task bar (gnome-session?) cored every time I tried to load up X. the mouse cursor would "float" as it approached max/min/etc buttons on the window.
I also had some issues with Gnome, but not as bad. Either recompile it or use KDE. I personally use Window Maker for the speed and memory usage so I didn't have the problem.
* KDE was better, but only somewhat. If screen blanked, palette never shifted back to normal colours.
Weird, KDE ran fine with me.
* Since there doesn't appear to be any real "text" mode, minicom had everything shoved into an 80x25 corner of my display, leaving 2 inches of blank black space to the bottom and right.
recompile the kernel with larger fonts.
* Could not alt-Fx between terminals. Could alt-F7 to the blank one reserved for X -- but could not get back to any other terminals.
it's actually command-Fx on the mac. If you did try command-Fx and it didn't work... well, you've got to enable the terms in
* Other little, nagging issues.
That's Linux for you. I always customize my installs, because anything I consider not to my liking is a nagging issue (like the lack of --color=yes in RedHat's 'ls' command).
I haven't been able to easily find information on most of these issues, either.
Google should simplify your life. Use lists.linuxppc.org as well.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, when Jason tells us "You can run on a PPC box as well as an x86 box", I just certainly hope this is true,
It is VERY true. My iMac now has 96 MB of RAM and it runs like a charm. I love using that box now (it's actually my Mom's -- she couldn't stand MacOS's sluggishness and crashes; I couldn't stand MacOS). It has _NEVER_ crashed on me, runs as fast as my 400 MHz Celeron, looks and feels just like Linux on an i386.
and it certainly won't be easy for joe user to find ways to fix these issues.
Agreed. Some of the stuff's well above joe user's head. In any case, I love LinuxPPC and I'd like to give a big thanks for Haas and all developers out there.
Flavio
Re:PPC -- big bucks, no bang (Score:3)
It wasn't too long ago that AMD had a majority or their chips made by IBM. (or was that cyrix? i don't remember)
-earl
Re:Why to buy a Mac (Score:3)
A is objectively better than B. It's niftier, and you like it better. But everyone else is going with B so you do too.
It price to performance ratio. Object A is objectivly niftyer than Object B, but when you figure in the facts that:
A) Though the RISC has a better architecture design, it is not sufficently better for most tasks to overcome the difference in Mhz available (ie, a 1Ghz PPC CPU would be manifestly better than a 1Ghz x86 CPU, but the x86 CPU's are up around 1.2Ghz, and the PPC's are still at 500Mhz. The superior design is insufficent in most cases to overcome that greater than 2x speed difference.)
B) The price differnces are staggering. Comparing the cost of a technically superior, but practically equivliant (or even inferior depending on the app) PPC CPU to that of the x86 CPU will yeild differnces of nearly 2x.
C) I have to deal with Apple to get a PPC system. I mean come on, we are talking about a company that "punished" ATI for blabing about a product early by releaseing that product with an inferior video card. They could care less about their customers. At least with all the companies making x86 hardware they have to at least pretend to care what the customer think or they will be forced out by someone who does.
Let's play out your politcal analogy here. Let's say I have a friend named Bob,and Bob is running for Mayor. I like Bob and he agrees with me on all of the issues, so I should vote for him, right? But wait, let's look at this further: First, Bob has no political experience, and if elected will most likely not be able to accomplish as much as his opponent, whom I also agree with on most important issues, just not ALL the issues. Second, Bob is kinda broke, and needs me to help pay for his campaign or there is no chance he will be elected. Finally, there is the fact that if I vote for Bob and he gets into office, he will probably appoint Tim Chief of Police. Tim is a jerk, but Bob likes him, so If I want Bob I gotta accept that Tim is coming along for the ride. So I can choose to get someone I agree with completely (other than thte Tim thing), but who will be less effective, and cost me money (and strap me with someone else I dont like), or I can choose some one that I can usually agree with, but who is cheaper, more likely to actually accomplish the purpose I elected him for, and will not come with baggage I don't like. I'll normally take the opponent unless there is compelling reason to do otherwise.
ATX PPC Motherboards and IBM Ref. Boards (Score:3)
--
Gabriel Ricard
Linux Fanatic
Ranting about non-technical stuff.. (Score:3)
I would _love it_ if I could take a train from Madison, Wisconsin (where I live now, thank goodness) to Chicago, or to Minneapolis. Or to San Francisco. Or NYC.
I can take a _bus_ to Chicago, then get on a train there (I think), but I'm not sure how I'd get from the bus station to the train station. (Taxi? Call one of my Chicago contacts?)
Trains can move more people at once than a car, obviously. They don't take up too much space. The space is made a rail _once_, and you shouldn't have to add much more if it's planned right. (Don't get me started on modern urban "planners"....)
We wouldn't have to stay focused all the time. We could eat, sleep, or be drunk, all of which people do in cars anyway.
The interest in passenger trains seems to be growing, which I'm glad of. I just wish that back in the 1950s, instead of GM doing their best to get rid of trains, trains multplied. I might not be the subject of a Slashdot interview. There are definitely people who would like that.
I'm done ranting now. Have fun.
Haaz: Co-founder, LinuxPPC Inc., making Linux for PowerPC since 1996.
hardware compatibility (Score:4)
Having said all of this, I still do prefer x86 chips for Linux. The Yellow Dog install was a (pardon the pun) bitch. Something just doesn't sit right with me when you have to have a small MAC partition to install Linux.