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Wireless Networking Hardware

Wireless Community Summit Tackles Digital Divide 69

Posted by simoniker from the over-the-ether dept.
jens writes "More than 150 participants (including Matt Westervelt, Seattle Wireless) from 30 countries will discuss on how to overcome the digital divide building wireless community networks. The freifunk.net summer convention 2004 takes place from 3rd to 10th September in Djursland, Denmark. The convention's location is well chosen -- DjurslandS.net (in Danish) itself is probably the most ambitious wireless community network of the world. About 200 volunteers installed more than 100 masts on the remote area's 32 000 sq mi. Using the wireless standards 802.11a/b/g about 1'500 households enjoy a symmetric 1-2 MBit internet connection via WI-FI (the WI-FI network has 8 direct uplinks to the danish backbone and several DSL fallbacks). The wireless4development track organized by wire.less.dk will show other projects how to follow the DjurslandS.net example. The convention starts off with a 3 day program including VoIP, development for the meshcube and antenna building and finishes off with a 5 day hands-on workshop."
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Wireless Community Summit Tackles Digital Divide More

Wireless Community Summit Tackles Digital Divide

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  • Switch Theory (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 09, 2004 @02:09PM (#9921983)
    Anyone know enough about Cellular Switching theory and wants to start an open architecture for switches using 802.11?

    One day the 2.4ghz spectrum is going to be saturated that the technology used in TDMA (time division) and CMDA (code division) will be used to separate the communication. Switching technology is actually quite simple (once theory is applied to practice) and 802.11 equipment could be used to hop frequency just like cellular does. Now if you can get some inspiring engineer to handle pass-off of equipment then you have yourself an open architecture to replace Cellular with VOIP wireless.

    • For us.. (Score:2, Insightful)

      by MisanthropicProgram ( 763655 )
      non-switching technology folks:WTF did you say!?

    • Re:Switch Theory (Score:5, Interesting)

      by rokzy ( 687636 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @02:18PM (#9922071)
      The new Motorola CN620 automagically switches to WiFi in hotspots.

    • Re:Switch Theory (Score:2, Informative)

      by gabbarbhai ( 719706 )
      This might be slightly off-topic.
      802.11h takes care of some of that: Includes dynamic frequency selection and control over transmitter power, thought the emphasis is on reducing interference.
      802.15 would be another standard to look at in this context.
      Someone like Qualcomm or Nokia needs to speed up development of a chip that handles multiple standards. I know, that'd be bad for their stock prices, but still..

    • Re:Switch Theory (Score:4, Insightful)

      by GuardianAngus ( 780535 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @02:35PM (#9922228)
      With enough knowledge of wireless technologies to be dangerous, I am willing to state that the technical implementation of such a system would be relatively easy. The legal environment and treatment of RF emissions in just one country, however, would be enough to prevent such a solution from being implemented wide scale.

      By the way, the digital divide is a social problem - it is unlikely to be solved simply by applying technology.

      • Re:Switch Theory (Score:4, Informative)

        by geomon ( 78680 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @02:43PM (#9922295) Homepage Journal
        By the way, the digital divide is a social problem - it is unlikely to be solved simply by applying technology.

        Agreed. There are places in Arizona and New Mexico that still do not have land-line telephone coverage. Granted, some of that is due to the lack of substantial penetration of technology into traditional communities (i.e., they LIKE being disconnected from modernity).

    • Re:Switch Theory (Score:4, Interesting)

      by TommydCat ( 791543 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @02:37PM (#9922241) Homepage
      TMI filters on!

      For CDMA at least, I doubt many AP owners will want to purchase a stratum-3 clock source or better to keep the strict timing requirements, let alone tackle the technical aspects.

      Most CDMA cell systems use [C]BSCs ([centralized] base site controllers) that derive timing from the MSC (mobile switching center) which in turn keep the BTSs (cell sites) in sync using timing derived from the DS1s that connect the two. The sites themselves need to know the precise GPS coordinates (a couple hundred feet off can really affect the timing in this system). The BTSs (cell sites) use a "PN offset", basically a time slot, for each sector (cell sites usually have 1-3 or 6 sides that act independantly) to keep from colliding on the same channel. RF Engineers wake up screaming in the night because a little overlap of two sectors in the system that overlap time slots will clobber usability. At 1.9GHz, weather plays a significant role (water reflects like a mirror, leaves eat up the RF which someplaces disappear in the fall), ensuring the need that the system has to be tuned constantly.

      The cell phones listen to the "sync channel", then sync to and descrypt the "long code" to catch up and keep in sync with the system.

      Summarizing this rather sloppy overview of CDMA, such an AP network would require 1) precise timing 2) precise coordinates (to keep BTSs/sites from colliding on same channel), 3) a strict sector/site management plan, and 4) active management of coverage. Note that this precludes anything like WDS - each point needs a backhaul or you could potentially bring the available bandwidth down by 2^(number of sectors adjacent to repeater).

      Needless to say, I think the average layman is out of his league trying to link up a homebrew network in his neighborhood using CDMA.

      TDMA could work with sloppy timing, but isn't that basically what 802.11b/g is now?

    • Further thought: Why not keep the 802.11x coverage locallized and use a different wireless technology for the backhaul? For point-to-point you could use line-of-sight microwave, laser whatever, or use a repeating technology with more bandwidth similar to what Riccochet did before it went TU.

      This would keep the 802.11 AP side "clean" for the clients and allow use of any/all channels to keep down local cross-AP interference (unlike WDS which halves your bandwidth out of the box and is fixed to one channel

  • Summit, Eh? (Score:4, Funny)

    by darth_MALL ( 657218 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @02:10PM (#9922003)
    Sounds like a good, high location to set up an ambush with the BlueSniper [engadget.com]

    • Re:Summit, Eh? (Score:3, Funny)

      by ackthpt ( 218170 ) *
      Sounds like a good, high location to set up an ambush with the BlueSniper

      Don't look for high places in Denmark, the highest elevation is on a bridge.

      The highest point (according to CIA) is at Yding Skovhoej 173 m.

      Ejer Bavnehøj which is 0.06 meters higher than Yding Skovhøj.

      Storebelt East Bridge, Storebæltsbroerne pylon height 254 m

  • I want... (Score:2, Funny)

    by dragonp12 ( 798787 )
    to live in the middle of that WI-FI network. Then I wouldn't be stuck on a dial-up!

  • Wow (Score:4, Funny)

    by johnnyb ( 4816 ) <jonathan@bartlettpublishing.com> on Monday August 09, 2004 @02:15PM (#9922045) Homepage
    "The convention's location is well chosen -- DjurslandS.net (in Danish) itself is probably the most ambitious wireless community network of the world. About 200 volunteers installed more than 100 masts on the remote area's 32 000 sq mi. Using the wireless standards 802.11a/b/g about 1'500 households enjoy a symmetric 1-2 MBit internet connection via WI-FI (the WI-FI network has 8 direct uplinks to the danish backbone and several DSL fallbacks)."

    Sounds like you could microwave a hot dog just by holding it up in the air. This conference was probably envisioned by a seminar given the previous year on "new and effective revenue generation techniques for oncologists".

  • Pringles - Available in Denmark? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by justanyone ( 308934 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @02:15PM (#9922050) Homepage Journal
    Are Pringles even available in Demmark?

    On that note, it seems like the antenna would not be the most expensive thing to buy as an extra, being usually aluminum in a nice shape. So, do people have links to cheap antenna sales locations and/or directions for build-your-own?

    On a personal level, I'd be okay with running a CAN (community area network - is this the right terminology) if I could make sure I interoperate well and share bandwidth across 2 or 3 (or more) uplinks (comcast or DSL included). But, I don't know if this is possible, illegal, immoral, mischievieous, evil, okay, cool, encouraged, verboten, slimey, offbeat, and/or reprehensible in anyone's eyes but my own.

    Any ideas? Links?

  • Left out in the Cold (Score:4, Funny)

    by ackthpt ( 218170 ) * on Monday August 09, 2004 @02:17PM (#9922063) Homepage Journal
    Yeah, lovely, tackling the divide... Like it does me any good. It's a real pain in the back to lug a desktop system around town looking for Wi-Fi hotspots...

  • Digital Divide != Squalor (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sockonafish ( 228678 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @02:18PM (#9922078)
    "Digital divide" describes a situation in which one class has access to computers, and another does not. Really, its not that bad.

    I'm not slamming the efforts of the guys in the story, but I am angry that I've seen the President talk more about the digital divide than say, the situation in the Sudan. There's another divide there - those who are victims of genocide, and those whore are not.

    There are too many people who have an infatuation with computers and want them to be ubiquitous. This kind of thing is an example, as is computerized voting.
    • Sudan doesn't have natural resources that the USA and Europe needs. That is why next to nothing has been done and why both major parties are damn near silent on the issue.
      • Actually, the region of Sudan where the major fighting is has considerable oil deposits, for which concessions have been given to a series of foreign companies, particularly TotalFinaELF and the Chinese national energy company. Curiously, both France and China have emerged as two of the largest obstacles to intervening in the slaughter there, or even to imposing sanctions.

        Why the "It's all about the pipeline!!!!" crowd is silent on an issue that really is all about a pipeline is a matter I'll leave to other

    • Re:Digital Divide != Squalor (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rm007 ( 616365 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @02:31PM (#9922189) Journal
      Even without comparing the digital divide with bigger issues, it seems to me that there are problems with the whole concept itself. The idea of a digital divided appears to have an underlying assumption that poor people - regardless of where they live - are poor because they do not have access to information in general and the Internet in particular. While this is unquestionably a symptom of poverty - I am not sure that this is the biggest structural hurdle that has to be overcome in order to provide equal opportunity for all. It sounds great but what will it actually do for most people?
      • It sounds great but what will it actually do for most people?


        Maybe not for most, but at least some may get work as programmers, software support, etc.

      • The idea of a digital divided appears to have an underlying assumption that poor people - regardless of where they live - are poor because they do not have access to information in general and the Internet in particular.

        Lack of internet access may sound like a small thing where we have ubiquitous phone service, but in parts of the world where it's the only means of communication, the difference between having and not having internet connectivity is enormous.

        Imagine a hypothetical country where group A i

    • No foolin'. And since computers get cheaper every year, that particular "divide" will be bridged fastest by simply waiting.

      A more real division, though, is between people who know how to effectively use computers and people who don't. But it's not an economic issue. I can think of only two ways to solve it... make computers easier to use, or make people smarter. The former, though difficult and elusive, is a much better bet than the latter.

      At the same time, being unable to use computers doesn't seem t
      • I was going to post a snide remark, but others have made my point eloquently and directly in my absence.

        Still, I really can't shed any tears or lose sleep over this so-called "digital divide". Park my butt on a desert island or Zipolite with a cool buzz, some tasty waves and I'm fine. Keep ur damned binary noise generators away from me and I could live a very happy life indeed.

        Now I must return to work...where's my cursor?

        ---
  • 1-2MB upload speeds? Connected to many computers, a share of them rooted to be open relays? Hellooo spam!

    • Re:symmetric? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by stratjakt ( 596332 )
      The way I read it, 1500 people in the community share that 1-2mbit pipe to the internet. Unless that pipe goes down, then everyone uses the DSL as fallbacks (ie; all sharing 256k up)

      Sorry, but given how craptastically unreliable I've found wifi to be, that sounds like a pretty crap connection to the 'net. Terrible ping times (from a gaming perspective), unreliable bandwidth.

      Thats why companies will still pay the big bucks for a T-1. We may only have 150k up, but we can count on it any time night or day
    • Though if you can some how set up servers and such with in the wi fi network than you use the bandwidth of the community network and not the bandwidth of the outside internet connection.

      The larger the community wi fi network the greater a possablity this could be done, though dont expect it to be so with a small group of less than a 100 people.

  • the meshcube is too expensive (Score:3, Informative)

    by WormholeFiend ( 674934 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @02:29PM (#9922172)
    the meshcube was deemed too expensive by the /. crowd, IIRC...

    how about the waysmall 200ax-bt [gumstix.com] instead?

  • Someone help me? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    What is the so-called "digital divide"? I am not familiar with this term. All the links seem to be about the wireless guys, not the actual divide itself...

    • Re:Someone help me? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      clinton invented that term in one of his later speeches. (i was actually at that speech but only got to watch on the bigscreen)

      basically it is, tech haves, and tech havenots.

      people cant afford technology so they will get left behind since computers etc are saturating every aspect of employment in this country.

      without some decent skills in computers you are out of luck.
  • 32,000 sq. km, 100 masts, 1500 households.

    Thats one mast for every 15 households. Given that it is Denmark, estimate that as one mast every 35 people. And miles and miles of wasted electromagnetic waves "wasting their sweetness on the desert air" (in winter, it IS a desert!)

    The technology isnt new, its not art, the scale isnt mind boggling and it doesnt address the digital divide [wikipedia.org] at all. OTOH, a Wi-Fi project that covers 15000 households is much more "useful" and newsworthy.

    The only thing that redee

  • What Digital Divide (Score:3, Interesting)

    by argoff ( 142580 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @02:52PM (#9922352)
    FYI, the digital divide isn't between the information haves and the information have nots, it is between the peoples who have no controll over the content on their systems and those that do.

  • Wi-Fi on the rise (Score:2, Interesting)

    by fabio ( 78385 )
    WI-FI is spreading around denmark like a wild forest fire, and many homes are connected to the internet via wireless, but security needs to be adressed, a newspaper tested the WI-FI security in copenhagen and found 3 secured networks out of a few thousands

    im planning to do a little wardriving my self when time permits,

    (and yes, my own network is secured!)

  • The biggest divide (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Brandybuck ( 704397 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @03:46PM (#9922952) Homepage Journal
    The biggest divide in the wireless community is support for non-Windows operating systems. A coworker and I have been trying to get wireless working on our laptops for several weeks now. We've been trying Linux 2.4, Linux 2.6 and FreeBSD 5.2. It's been extremely difficult because the cards supported by native Open Source drivers are considered horribly obsolete in the marketplace.

    Will the future be Windows and Ndis wrappers only? How free will our software be when all of our hardware is held hostage by Windows-binary-only drivers?
    • The future is the people in hardware development, who have had a long and rich tradition of keeping their interfaces secret, switch *not* requiring their customers to NDA their SDKs so that people like Nvidia can open source their goddamn drivers. When I buy a product, I want that thing to stay usable, not sorta-supported as long as the company happens to stay in business.
      • I'm specifically thinking of the case of NVidia and FreeBSD, where the driver is incredibly unstable under 5.2.1, and NVidia saying they're not going to do anything about it until 5.3 comes out. A friend told me similar stories right after Linux 2.6 came out. Basically the kernels have become bass-ackwards dependent upon the drivers.
  • I think it's all well and good that people are looking at these problems, but shouldn't there be more attention directed to more pressing problems. Those problems include 1) food and clean water, 2) accessible housing, 3) medical care and prevention of illness, and 4) dealing with oppressive governments which exist at the expense of their citizens, and not for their benefit.

    Also, I'd encourage everyone out there to find some organization which is trying to make the world a better place, and volunteer. (A
    • >but shouldn't there be more attention directed to
      >more pressing problems.

      I am sure the people at the workshop would tell you that they would make lousy doctors or construction workers.

      Besides the most pressing problems might not be the most important. Which is also why poor countries should not close the shools and have kids and teachers work in the fields instead.

    • I think it's all well and good that people are looking at these problems, but shouldn't there be more attention directed to more pressing problems. Those problems include 1) food and clean water, 2) accessible housing, 3) medical care and prevention of illness, and 4) dealing with oppressive governments which exist at the expense of their citizens, and not for their benefit.

      These problems won't be solved without good communication, which (in places where communication is lacking, such as parts of the thir

    • Actually, you are presenting a classic development arguement. Unfortunately, it would seem that infrastructure, the basis of the developed world is what is needed to organize a developing country so that what resources they have and are given can be put in the right places to do the right things. To do so requires good means of communications, wireless is for many places the only reasonable way to provide that means to communicate. Mali, where we are working (http://geekcorps.org/default.asp?l1i=113&l2i

  • Real or NAT? (Score:3)

    by asdfghjklqwertyuiop ( 649296 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @04:40PM (#9923505)
    This large Danish wifi network: is it all connected to the Internet via NAT? Or do they have a block of routable IP addresses to use on this network? Just wondering... I can't read Danish.

  • Since everyone working on the project are very busy, building more net (our goal is 16.000 users), preparing for the convention and more - lots more, I doubt it that anyone else from inside DjurslandS.net will be able to find the time to comment here at Slashdot.

    Thus, I'll try to do my best, though I'm not much into all the technical details. I can assure though, that DjurslandS.net is much, much more than technology for technologys sake, and that we do care about security in our network.

    I am sorry we can

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