Neuros Gets (Beta) Linux Support

Jahf writes "/. reported awhile back that the folks at Digital Innovations (makers of the Neuros portable MP3 player) were teaming up with Xiph.org (makers of the Ogg Vorbis audio format) to release both native Linux support for synchronizing the Neuros and firmware support in the Neuros for Ogg Vorbis files. Today they announced in this forum posting that the native Linux client has reached beta. Nice to see this happen ... I can ditch my last Windows install (well, I'll keep it for a couple of games). It is a command-line utility, no amazing fancy UI, but I'm sure plenty of folks will work to remedy that in some fashion or another and I'm happier with a rock-solid command-line util than a buggy GUI app anyway since I already do all my ripping/encoding/freeDBing/etc from scripts in a shell (so I can just add this as the final step). Next on the list is Ogg Vorbis support ... not done yet but hopefully close. w00t!"

Buy One

Show your support for this and buy a Neuros player.

I keep hopin

I keep hopin they finally get an ogg vorbis digital music player thats reasonably sized. I don't want one of the big, fancy players; I want a small, pocket sized one that doesn't have the kitchen sink. I want one I can put a 512mb memory stick or compact flash or whatever card in and throw in my pocket while I run, bike, fence, or whatever.

These players are great. If I wanted a nice big music player I'd chomp down on this fast, but 4.5x2.5x1.5 (not exact) is a bit big to just throw in my pocket considering the size of some of the players out there.

I'm happy that companies are starting to tune digital music players for the linux crowd and starting to get ogg support on them, but would it kill to have a small, no frills player that can play vorbis files?

Re:I keep hopin

Now when I DO get a vorbis player, I'm going to have to spend about 300 hours re-ripping my entire collection.

Don't rip to vorbis, rip to FLAC [sourceforge.net] and then never worry about having to re-rip to the format dejure again. Disk is cheap, go lossless for archival purposes and then whenever you need it in a lossy format, just use the FLAC version as your base source and convert on the fly. Makes it easy to support MP3, Vorbis, AAC, AARP, NCAA, etc.

FLAC does matter

"And whoah, fanboy. If I was gonna go lossless, I'd go with with a RIFF wav-- those are compatible with every imaginable program."

Yeah, you say that now. But with FLAC, the files are compressed losslessly, and in my experience, I generally get about a 33% size reduction. And with subtle music with a lot of will placed percussion (e.g. my jazz albums) FLAC does give a noticeable improvement over ogg vorbis encoded at 9.1 quality.

So assuming you'd get about 74 minutes of audio on the standard CD, you'd get 747 MiB [nist.gov] of wave files per disc.

Note: CD Audio encoding is different than regular data encoding. You cannot fit 747 MiB [nist.gov] of wave files on a CD-R in a regular file 74 or 80 minute system because of redundant error correction data that does not exist in the CD Audio format.

So with a 20 GiB [nist.gov] Neuros Audio Player you would be able to fit 27.4 CDs on one player. With FLAC, assuming a 33% file size reduction, you would be able to get 40.9 CDs onto the player.

Lossless support in the Neuros player IS a big deal because it allows you to put a significantly larger quantity of non-lossy music on it. And furthermore, if you want, you can just convert the FLAC back to RIFF wave format whenever you want because, one again, the conversion is lossless in both directions.

Neuros Synchronization Manager

positron [xiph.org]

Ogg will have won...

when these MP3 players get marketed as "portable Ogg Vorbis players" instead. (Yeah geeks have strange wet dreams I know.)

Editors!

Can't the editors at least remove the lame stuff from the submission text?

Nice to see this happen ... I can ditch my last Windows install.

Why does this need to be in the submission?

(well, I'll keep it for a couple of games).

Ok now I'm confused.

no amazing fancy UI, but I'm sure plenty of folks will work to remedy that

Good attitude! :)

I'm happier with a rock-solid command-line util than a buggy GUI app anyway

Or not..

I already do all my ripping/encoding/freeDBing/etc from scripts in a shell

Too l33t for me!

Next on the list is Ogg Vorbis support ... not done yet

Ok, so a non-story.

w00t!

I don't think this one needs an explanation.

Command line?

no buggy GUI...command line?
all of the sudden I had this vision:

#sync --usb --neuros -tgif ~/audio/music/OGG/
comparing file lists........
syncing files.........

error: device block full reload.

#_

"What the hell does THAT mean?"

#man sync

Yeah right.....

I can ditch my last Windows install

I wish I had a dollar every time I heard that on /. And another dollar every time they end up re-installing Windows when it didn't work out as they dreamed.

What xiph.org say

Check out what xiph.org have to say [xiph.org] about this:

Please do not run out and purchase this device immediately, assuming that Vorbis playback will be supported by Neuros. The firmware we write for them (codenamed 'NeuRosetta') will be documented in its creation, and we'll have a site up to document the progress. When that site says it's 'safe' to buy the unit, then it's safe.

Quality Ogg VS Mp3

License issue aside, which sounds better (VBR)ogg or (VBR)Mp3? I can't tell them apart.
This [monkeysaudio.com] seems to be all the rage on UseNet.
That Neuros device looks pretty sweet.

Encoding - Cürrent Best Practice

You should not use --r3mix. It is old and deprecated - its removal from LAME has been considered. You should use LAME 3.90.2 with --alt-preset standard (aka "APS", ~ 192kbps VBR) or possibly --alt-preset extreme ("APX", ~ 256kbps VBR) for trickier encodes (classical, jazz, rock, experimental). Those without space concerns still wishing to use mp3 can try --alt-preset insane ("API", 320kbps CBR).

The --alt-presets are optimisations for quality and have been very thoroughly tested by hydrogenaudio [hydrogenaudio.org]. They represent the current state-of-the-art in mp3 compression.

For a scale, quality (normally transparent up to lossless) and size (50-80MB up to 300-700MB) go roughly (Qx represents Vorbis 1.0 quality number): APS < Q6 < APX < Q7 < Q8 < API < Q9 < Q10 < FLAC

A music sharing network for people who care about quality exists. Because the bad guys read /. too, I'll leave it to you to find üs, but the rules are:

Rip with Exact Audio Copy 0.9b4 (secure mode, accurate stream, NO C2, no normalisation, no read or sync errors, only complete discs with no missing audio tracks, save a log file) and encode to MP3s (LAME 3.90.2 or 3.92), Oggs (Vorbis 1.0) or FLACs. Tag correctly - for mp3 ONLY use id3 v1.1 and id3 v2.3.0 - with year and ideally genre from allmusic [allmusic.com], name scheme "%A - %C\%A - %C - %N - %T" normal, various artists discs - name tracks "Artist / Title" and use name scheme "%C\%C - %N - %A - %T", add " (OST)" to album name for soundtracks. Move log into directory, rename to directory name + .log, add an .md5 md5sum for the log and audio files to complete the rip.

is there really need for vorbis portable?

you generally use your portable while you travel in bus or go jogging etc.
the ambient noises disort the sound anyway so you don't have to use full 192Kbps quality for your audio, besides the memory in the devices is limited and still bit expensive to expand.

how's your headphones? do you really carry around high end half open/closed headphones that cost $1000 when you go jogging?
no, you use the $10 button headphones that you got cheap from some junk shop --> no need for the extra quality

Currently you can get portable mp3 player with 128Mb memory for less than $100

how about getting one of those cheap mass produced mp3 players and whip up script that transcodes the ogg on your hard drive to 64-160kbps mp3 just before transferring it to the player

you could still enjoy the quality of oggs on your high end speaker system at home since the files are oggs on your hd

But...

But does it support Og.. Oh, never mind.

Ogg vorbis only on Neuros HD? not light versions?

From the Neuros Forum thread pertaining to ogg Vorbis, from the head of the Neuros product development:

(...)we do wish to open up our system so that third parties can contribute to the product's development amd leverage our own efforts.
Good! another smart company who wants to help the user community rather that stop them!

On their site, Digital Innovations say the NeuRosetta (ogg vorbis for neuros) should soon (sometime in June?) be available for the Neuros HD... I was really hyped up by the Neuros 128MB / 20GB Upgrade Bundle (tho does the upgrade bundle include the Neuros 128? If not, the price tag is beyond my limited student resources...) But will NeuRosetta work on other versions of the Neuros than the Neuros HD? Coz an HD mp3 player is maybe a bit big for all my uses...

From a previous Neuros Owner

As a previous Neuros owner, I'd like to share my experience with you, since I learned about the Neuros at this site.

As of the last week in May, when I returned my unit, I had owned the Neuros for three months. During that three months, I spent more time attempting to get the software and firmware to work than I did actually listening to the Neuros outside of sitting at my desktop. Though during that time I saw a committed effort to improve the software, firmware and hardware, be warned that the Neuros was at that time for early adopters who had the time and patience to post bug reports and wait for a commercial company to release updates.

From corrupted on unit databases to a firmware that randomly deleted the entire contents of the unit, the problems were constant. Every time I took the unit with plans to listen to it, I was dissappointed. During the short periods I managed to make it work, I had other problems. From the MyFi functionality being only listenable in mono to the UI of the unit not allowing you to search for songs while one is playing, the enitre experience was not worth the $399 I paid for.

If you don't fit into the early adopter catagory or have $400 to loan a company for beta software while you "test" their products for them, then buy another MP3 player.

Please don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the concept of the Neuros. The hardware was well designed, but not in the same catagory as an iPod. The UI was livable, but again, not in the same catagory as an iPod. The software and firmware were unusable and required hours and hours at a time to find the bugs that wouldn't allow useful listening to the device. And then, the worst part of it all... it's USB 1.1. No device with 20 Gb of storage should have USB 1.1 There's nothing worse than transfering data for 5 hours to find out you discovered a bug and had to transfer the data again.

Digital Innovations has great customer service and they actually care a great deal about what you have to say. However, for $400, I'd rather purchase company stock than either of their units.

I have to say that the mic on the unit and the line in are nice features. There's nothing like recording your drunk friends at 2:00 am while they think you're listening to MP3s. And the MyFi is a real nice idea, it's just the performance of the MyFi is inadequate. HiSi is a nice idea, though I never found it useful since my unit never made it very long outside of my desktop.

Before I posted this, I checked out the Neuros website. They seemed to have released a serious update to the software. Hopefully this one is spot on or a huge improvement to the versions I had previously used.

Why not USB-storage?

I am slightly confused why this device just would not support usb-storage. That would sound like the simplest thing to do. No strange programs run, etc.

Even for those who want syncronization abilities. They can just mount the usb-storage and then rsync the local paths.

Why the special utility?

Re:Why not USB-storage?

The README, which you probably didn't see because the submitter didn't include a link to the actual release page [xiph.org], explains this briefly:

As far as your computer is concerned, a Neuros is just an external USB 1 hard disk, following the USB Mass Storage standard. You can copy any sort of file, music or otherwise, onto the Neuros. However, only files that are listed in a special database stored on the Neuros will be playable. This is where positron is needed. It will both physically copy files and update the Neuros database so those files are playable.

where can you get them?

I'm interested in this, but after a quick look at bestbuy.com, compusa.com and tigerdirect.com I didn't see them. I see you can order them directly- is that the only way? $400 is a bit much, but I'm willing to compare prices a bit.

UK?

A quick look at the Neuros website shows that:

we are unable to ship to addresses outside of the United States or to addresses containing PO Box or APO/FPO

Which is a bit annoying :(

Nice, but...

Put me in as one of those who isn't going to run out and buy an ogg player until I can get one that's teeny tiny (ie, smaller than my MiniDisc player) with at least 128MB.

I'm currently using my Zaurus. Since I can get two hours of oggs at q0 (plenty for work) on half of a 128MB MMC card, I'm not quite ready to run out and buy another device of comparable size just for tunes. If I'm going on vacation, I can get a 512MB CF card for 90 bucks and keep my gadgets down to the Zaurus and an external battery pack.

I'm having crash problems with the Sharp ROM 3.10 and the current Vorbis plugin, but I expect somebody will remedy that soon enough. Of course, if Sony ever supports vorbis and Linux on the NetMD players, the whole question will be moot. Yeah, right after pigs fly outta Hillary Rosen's ass...

One more thing: anybody who thinks that mp3 at 128 sounds as good as .ogg at 64 needs to have their ears checked... I suppose you could like it when cymbals sound like breaking glass, but there's no accounting for taste...

Jazpiper

For anyone with the Jazpiper [jazpiper.com] portable player John johansen (of DeCss fame) has written a driver and a command line utility fot linux called Openjaz [nanocrew.net]

Open Source Firmware/Software

I have also emailed them and they claim to be working on the details of making the software and firmware open source.

Re:Linux replacing Windows

Why should you install Windows and install all kinds of Unix stuff on top of it? Migth as well install Linux / BSD / etc if you're not planning on using Windows for anything else than a platform to install Unix tools on.

Belive it or not, some of us actually feel that Windows is slowing us down in our work. I don't hate Windows, I just hate using it.

Free Software's Aim

Free software aims to replace the Windows operating system only in-so-far as to create an open, competitive marketplace for desktop applications. If Microsoft had stuck to creating operating systems, Linux would have nowhere near the following it does today. Throughout the 90's, instead of being content with improving Windows, Microsoft ignored the bugs in their OS and concentrated on extending their monopoly vertically into the more profitable applications market, integrating their own products into their OS and giving them inherent, illegal advantages over competitors' products.

Microsoft likes to tout the availability of third-party software for Windows, but the trend in the Windows 'ecosystem' has been for large, profitable products to either be purchased [gps.com] by Microsoft and rebranded as M$ 'innovation' or merely crushed [netscape.com] under the weight of the Microsoft integration monopoly. It's shocking how many Microsoft 'patches' just serve to further integrate their applications into the OS and break competitors' products. Lots of businesses in the 'dot-com' era were formed with the sole purpose of being purchased by Microsoft. Now, on Windows, you have the choice of one browser, one word processor, one e-mail client, one media player, and one instant messenger. Using anything else puts you at risk of having your investment in third-party applications and training made obsolete by Microsoft's anti-competitive tactics.

Sadly, those who were most fed up with this situation were the users. The mere fact that there are people so sick of Windows that they are willing to work to build their own OS has given Microsoft the only real competition it has ever had. Had there been no OSS 'Revolution', we would all be running M$ apps on a buggy, Macintosh-like system where everything from mice to CPU's to word processors come only from Redmond. Microsoft is still living in this fantasy world [microsoft.com] where they can control the entire desktop market in this way.

OSX is probably the best example of an open, capitalistic desktop applications marketplace so far. Apple has smartly placed themselves as a stepping stone between a proprietary OS running one vendor's applications to a free OS capable of attracting proprietary applications developers. They have a thriving third-party software base that hasn't (yet?) been monopolised by the OS developer. Maybe their choice of BSD as a base OS will help to convince more application developers to write for open software targets instead of coding nervously as the Sword of Redmond hangs precariously over their heads.