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New Phased-Array AP Boosts 802.11b Range

Posted by timothy on Mon Nov 04, 2002 08:52 PM
from the bring-it-on-quickly dept.
Hardware
ttul writes "Vivato, a well-funded wireless startup, today came out of stealth mode to announce its "WiFi" switch product, a super high performance 802.11b access point that uses an array of hundreds of antennas to provide wide-area coverage to standard 802.11b clients. See stories at Wired, and The New York Times. Vivato's new AP completely changes the economics of WiFi especially for providers such as FatPort and WayPort, who now have the technology to deliver 11Mbps to your laptop even if you're miles from a location -- it's the Jetson's, folks!"
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  • Why? (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2002, @08:54PM (#4596870)
    um, why is it the jetson's? I'm sure it is obvious to everyone but me.

  • Repost ? (Score:2, Informative)

    by Merkins (224523) on Monday November 04 2002, @08:54PM (#4596873) Homepage
    Umm, didn't this already get posted today ??
    Timothy, do you not not read Slashdot ?

  • Do the editors read there own site? (Score:4, Funny)

    by DAldredge (2353) <SlashdotEmail@GMail.Com> on Monday November 04 2002, @08:55PM (#4596879) Journal
    This appears to be a dup of a story that is still on the main page... And to think, they get paid for this.

  • Vivato (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2002, @08:55PM (#4596882)
    I suppose something radically changed since this morning [slashdot.org]. Folks at Vivato must be amazed, getting two front page stories in a single day.

  • Already read this today (Score:2, Redundant)

    by cscx (541332) on Monday November 04 2002, @08:55PM (#4596884) Homepage
    over n'yah [slashdot.org]

  • Phased Array Antennas (Score:2, Informative)

    by Spooge Demon (413208) on Monday November 04 2002, @08:56PM (#4596887) Homepage
    The tech is a phased array antenna, there was a good article about using it with 802.11 (notice there is no b) in the IEEE spectrum [ieee.org] a while ago.

    Consider it a sort of software antenna, you have a series of antenna that you can bias towards a particular direction. You then listen for incoming signals and use a processor to calculate environmental multipath (RF signals bouncing off buildings, etc.) and then fire off your signal so that the main signal and multipath reflections arrive at the reciever at the same time. Instant gain.

    I'm skeptical on the reported max range but they should get a good amount. If you're sitting in the middle of a parabolic dish and so is your target, sure I expect that kind of increase in range, but in the real world...

  • Headline news? (Score:5, Funny)

    by cmeans (81143) <cmeans&intfar,com> on Monday November 04 2002, @08:56PM (#4596888) Homepage Journal
    What is this, CNN's Headline news?..all the news, the same news, every half hour!
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.

  • We're on a roll folks (Score:2, Insightful)

    by disc-chord (232893) on Monday November 04 2002, @08:58PM (#4596902)
    I can't believe how fast this technology just keeps advancing. I am so glad to be alive in this day and age, instead of 200 years in either direction. Just think about it for a second, if you were alive in 1802 you'd be getting some amazing technological advances at a rate of ... well pretty slow. And in 2202 we'd just be used to it all, and completely unphased. (i.e. How excited does turning your light bulb on make you today?)

    I can't wait to get my hands on one of these new toys!

    • Re:We're on a roll folks (Score:4, Insightful)

      by gozar (39392) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:30PM (#4597059) Homepage

      Actually, the late 1800's was when technology affected human lives (at least in America) the most.Before that time it wasn't unusual to go for years without communication to your family that was only a few hundred miles away. Then the telegraph, steam engine, mass production, the industrial revolution began to really change things.

      It is an exciting time now, but don't kid ourselves that this is the golden age of advances. We're still doing the same thing, just slightly faster. Give me a call when we have anti-gravity devices, holodecks, and transporters.

      [ Parent ]
    • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.

  • Is this a good thing? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by JohnA (131062) <johnanderson@NOSPaM.gmail.com> on Monday November 04 2002, @08:59PM (#4596905) Homepage
    What if I don't want this super-array to interfere with my local WLAN? It appears that this technology has the potential to create a "mine is bigger than yours" arms race among WiFi users.
    • Re:Is this a good thing? by hedley (Score:2) Monday November 04 2002, @09:15PM
    • Its a BAD thing . . . by mofu (Score:1) Monday November 04 2002, @09:30PM

    • Re:Is this a good thing? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Merkins (224523) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:31PM (#4597064) Homepage
      Did you read the articles ?

      The actual output of this thing is on 30mw. It just increases range by locking on to it's clients and adjusting itself to aim more directly at them. because of this, it will actually cause less general interferance than a standard garden variety AP
      [ Parent ]

      • Re:Is this a good thing? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Beryllium Sphere(tm) (193358) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:59PM (#4597154) Homepage Journal
        Sometimes the FCC regulates how directional you're allowed to be.

        The magic word here is EIRP, Effective Isotropic Radiated Power. It's how bright you look to someone who's in line with your RF beam. Even if your total power is low, and you're avoiding interference with people who aren't in line with your directional beam, high EIRP can cause problems for innocent bystanders anywhere on the line between you and your intended recipient.

        EIRP increases with transmitter power and with antenna gain (== directionality).

        This is why it's technically illegal to put a better antenna on your cordless phone, and why the phones don't come with easily replaceable antennas.

        Now, if these people are really smart, they could set their beamforming code to plant a null on any 802.11 network that's not a customer, in which case they'll avoid interference.

        Fred KC7YRN
        [ Parent ]
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.

  • Wi-Fi all hype no action? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2002, @09:00PM (#4596910)
    What does everyone think of Wi-Fi really? I mean we have a Wi-Fi connection at my school, but why would I really want to use it? What use is it to have a connection "anywhere", when most conference rooms and what have you have a cord connection nearby which is infinitly more secure.

    Personally I think This story [yahoo.com] makes several good points about the so called "Decline of Wi-Fi". Is Wi-Fi quickly becoming Why-Fi? Simply an expensive gadget which in general doesn't aid the modern human at all?

    Sidenote: Perhaps this would be a good idea on airplanes...

  • Telco's are obsolete! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Mac Degger (576336) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:05PM (#4596946) Journal
    Think about it: if 1 in 10 (maybe a lot less) people get one of these babies, and run a reasonable VoIP software on it...all you need is a wifi PDA and you've got "free" telephone services!

    Hmmm, I guess you'd also want IP6 running...but wow! what a thought: technology makes another middleman obsolete!

  • I'll beleive it when..... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Chris_Stankowitz (612232) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:05PM (#4596947)
    it sticks around for more than a year. The old addage of I'll beleive it when I see it has fallen victim to too many technologies that didn't make it. I am cheering for this all the way. Hope it makes it and stays.

  • Watch out ISPs... (Score:1)

    by thoolie (442789) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:06PM (#4596952) Homepage
    Well, if anyone can get one, and if they can support numerious clients, there is no way to watch everybody that connects to a given access point (mac address, ips, blablabla...). How can the ISP industry survive when anyone can connect to a WAN over 802.11b? AND FOR FREE? I think this is going to be big, very big. It is only going to be time that tells us how the trust companies battle this thorn it their sides....bwhahahaahaahaha

    --Jesus is like 6 leperchauns...only harder to catch--

  • Apostrophe Watch (Score:1)

    by RangerSpeedBumpp (250645) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:07PM (#4596956) Homepage
    "It's the Jetsons". Not Jetson's.

    C'mon, guys. You're running a major online news service. I'd let this one slide but I see these your/you're its/it's mistakes at least once per day.

  • Not disappointed (Score:1)

    by Compact Dick (518888) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:08PM (#4596959) Homepage

    I saw 'by Timothy' and opened this link to check if it would be another duplicate. I wasn't disappointed.

    Don't worry, Tim. We still love ya :-)

  • what about the not-slow people (Score:5, Funny)

    by hfastedge (542013) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:11PM (#4596971) Homepage Journal
    From the wired article:
    "We think it'll work reasonably well at pedestrian speed," said CEO Ken Biba,


    This company will surely fail. Its technology isnt taking into account laptop joggers, laptop motorcyclists, laptop unicyclists. And leisure, urban helicopterists and skydivers...
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.

  • Asymmetry and number of users (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2002, @09:13PM (#4596978)
    The use of a phased array antenna for transmission to the client is nice, but I wonder if it requires the client to be modified to run special tracking software that sends back multipath information to the basestation to enable it to tune its beam.

    This makes me think that the data-link would probably end up being asymmetric --- high data rate down to the client but not so good coming back. Not only would the upstream rate be partially consumed by the multipath measurements, but also the single antenna on the client would have a harder time beamforming out to the receiver array.

    The power constraint is probably on the total output from one array and as such, the number of users that any one of them can support is probably fairly limited. This suggests that things can get quite interesting if we put a bunch of these in close quarters. The optimal solution would be for the AP to collaborate and divide up the users among them not by simple distance (voronoi regions) but by effective distance involving the specific multipath environment! Otherwise interference would be a serious problem.

  • Why...... (Score:5, Informative)

    by jwilcox154 (469038) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:14PM (#4596980) Homepage Journal
    use a Phased-Array AP to Boost the 802.11b Range, when you can use a Pringles Can [techtv.com] as the Wi-Fi Antenna to Boost the Range? ;)

  • Silence nay sayers, slashdot rules thee (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2002, @09:14PM (#4596983)
    this isn't a repost, this is an update worthy of a new story, given the few details of the last.

    helluva lot better than CNN or nyt where they'd just revise the story and you'd never know.

  • War Driving .... (Score:3, Funny)

    by bizitch (546406) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:15PM (#4596986) Homepage
    Fuck war driving - try war standing around and hopping on to x number of nets!

  • In other news (Score:4, Funny)

    by yorgasor (109984) <ron AT tritechs DOT net> on Monday November 04 2002, @09:16PM (#4596990) Homepage
    Slashdot was able to boost its reach of certain articles by a factor of 2. Says slashdot editor, Timothy, "The results are very impressive and the technique was surprisingly simple. All we had to do to double the readership for a particular article was to post it once in the morning, and again at night. If our /. readers are anything like the editors, most of them are too lazy to read more than the top couple of articles. If they happened to miss the morning edition of /. we can rebroadcast a "best of /." again in the evening so our lazy readers don't miss out and all the action here."
    • Re:In other news by Wild Bill Hickock (Score:1) Tuesday November 05 2002, @03:34AM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.

  • Quick Everyone, Before Anyone Notices... (Score:1)

    by Cyno01 (573917) <Cyno01@hotmail.com> on Monday November 04 2002, @09:16PM (#4596993) Homepage
    C&P the highly modded posts from the first post of this article. Its still there on the front page, just scroll down.

  • obligatory VOIP thread (Score:1)

    by frankmu (68782) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:16PM (#4596994) Homepage
    ok, i just needed to say this: think of what this can do for Voice over IP!

  • interesting discrepancy (Score:1)

    by ender's_shadow (302302) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:17PM (#4596997) Homepage
    it's odd that nytimes says the main proposed use is in the corporate world, while wired mentions dorms. audience demographics?

  • 9 Hours (Score:1)

    by tswinzig (210999) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:18PM (#4597004) Journal
    A new repost record, I do believe...
    • Re:9 Hours by cscx (Score:2) Monday November 04 2002, @09:23PM
      • Re:9 Hours by BeBoxer (Score:2) Monday November 04 2002, @10:21PM
      • Re:9 Hours by cscx (Score:3) Monday November 04 2002, @10:10PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.

  • re: post (Score:1)

    by Scaebor (587064) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:25PM (#4597042)
    it's the Jetson's, folks!
    Until I get my flying car and robot maid it not going to be the Jetsons. Somehow AIBO on a skateboard just doesn't cut it for me.

  • We're Proud to Present... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Twintop (579924) <david@twintop-tahoe.com> on Monday November 04 2002, @09:32PM (#4597069) Homepage Journal
    Don't have time to sit on a computer in a dark room? Get Pr0n on the Go! Download from the park, from your porch, or even in the car!

  • Duplicate (Score:1, Redundant)

    by alanjstr (131045) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:32PM (#4597070) Homepage
    Already on Slashdot [slashdot.org]

  • Question.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by hawkbug (94280) <psx@fimble.COFFEEcom minus caffeine> on Monday November 04 2002, @09:38PM (#4597092) Homepage
    Maybe somebody can answer this for me, but I see a major problem with current wireless technology. I currently have an 802.11b access point in my home. I love it, and it gets great range - in fact, so great it goes clear over onto my neighbors property. I had my laptop outside (probably looked like a dork walking around running a constant ping on my thinkpad), and I was able to walk clear onto their property and get a great signal. At first I was impressed... then I started to think about my neighbor. Wouldn't this be a problem for them if they wanted their *own* access point for their network?? I would think that my access point also interferes with 2.4ghz phones in the area. As an example, I had to sell mine because they quit working the second I got this thing. So, if you could expand the range of 802.11b to *miles* - isn't that really going to screw over Joe Blow who wants his own wireless network that just happens to be within range of a provider mentioned in the story???

  • Not a duplicate... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Penguinoflight (517245) on Monday November 04 2002, @09:47PM (#4597125) Homepage Journal
    This must not be a duplicate from all the people getting modded down... not only are the 4,5, and 6th posters getting redundant, the first guy got a troll mod. Is this really not another story, and are the editors really awake?

  • Actually... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Bruce Perens (3872) <.moc.snerep. .ta. .ecurb.> on Monday November 04 2002, @09:50PM (#4597129) Homepage Journal
    I think that 802.11b has a legal limitation on the antenna gain to 6 dB. This is so that devices would not interfere with other, distant networks.

    Bruce

    • Re:Actually... by div_2n (Score:3) Tuesday November 05 2002, @12:17AM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Actually... by EmagGeek (Score:1) Tuesday November 05 2002, @06:00AM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.

  • Karma Whoring 101 (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 04 2002, @09:56PM (#4597144)
    A repeat, for the newbies:

    Whenever /. posts a repeat story, one quick way of getting extra karma is to go through the original story, and repost the highest scoring posts.

    This usually gets by the editors too, as we all know that they never read other /. stories.

  • Problems with cache? (Score:1)

    by Rorian (88503) <[moc.liamg] [ta] [hsyf.semaj]> on Monday November 04 2002, @10:18PM (#4597226) Homepage Journal
    Maybe Tim doesn't reload Slashdot from the server all the time, and is reading older, outdated articles, which leads to him posting duplicates?

    I've seen /. getting a lot of abuse about duplicate posts, but two on the one page?! Oh well, I guess theres nothing better to read online :(

  • Death to war driving?! (Score:1)

    by dunkan44 (537519) <joelf.dunkan@net> on Monday November 04 2002, @10:43PM (#4597313) Homepage
    With this kind of coverage we can scan networks from the comforts of our own homes.. :)

  • dammit timothy (#2) (Score:2)

    by BiOFH (267622) on Monday November 04 2002, @11:02PM (#4597388)
    Attention /. editors. I want Timothy's fucking job. I have at least one sure qualification he doesn't: I read Slashdot.

    Duplicate posts, misleading (or just plain "made up") headlines... ARGH!

    See:
    http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid= 44091&ci d=4592724

    (I'm gonna post one of these every time and keep adding links to previous posts)

  • I don't know whats funnier... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by tgd (2822) on Monday November 04 2002, @11:22PM (#4597441)
    The fact that clearly no one who works at slashdot reads their site, or the fact that 2/3 of the people reading this article don't either.

    FWIW, people, the replies on the story from this morning are better than these. ;-)

  • And now.... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Thai-Pan (414112) on Monday November 04 2002, @11:37PM (#4597479) Journal
    ... war driving from the comfort of your living room.

  • /. Effect (Score:5, Funny)

    by batboy78 (255178) on Tuesday November 05 2002, @12:04AM (#4597538) Homepage
    Apparently they didn't get slashdotted this morning, time for round two. Ding Ding Ding.

  • the jetsons? (Score:1)

    by athlon02 (201713) on Tuesday November 05 2002, @12:42AM (#4597633)
    Uhh, when it (wireless technologies) reaches a few 100Mbit and is used by the masses, then maybe :)

  • This is an active phased array... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Newer Guy (520108) on Tuesday November 05 2002, @01:33AM (#4597741)
    It works much like the active radar antennas that do not move. Here in Santa Monica we have a large phased array of hundreds of fixed antennas aimed at the horizon that are sequentially pulsed on and off to get the familiar 'rotating' pattern of a single rotating radar dish. This design is much more robust then a rotating array as there are no mechanical rotating parts at all...everything is switched by PIN diodes. Military jets also use a variation of this for secure communications. In the jets' wings are switched inductor antennas that are used in a fast frequency hopping scheme over a 50 mhz range. The transmissions can be anywhere within a 50 mhz frequency segment at any given fraction of a second. If the frequency synthesizer at all locations are moving to the same frequency at exactly the same time, the transmisison will sound completely continuous.
    They use PIN diodes to change the taps on an inductor to resonate the antenna over the (wide) frequency range. This way, they can use smaller, lighter, narrower bandwith antennas and rapidly tune them to the exact frequency in use at any given moment.

    All in all, a very slick technology and another example of a civilian use of military technology.

  • Boosting Signal Strength (Score:1)

    by nautical9 (469723) on Tuesday November 05 2002, @02:46AM (#4597910) Homepage
    I was pointed to a an interesting site [hdcom.com] that sells (possibly illegal in your area) boosters, bridges, antennae and other miscellanea for 802.11B.

    This isn't an endorsement - I have no need in my small place, and haven't tried any of this myself, but it sure would be fun playing around with some of this stuff.

  • PowerBook (Score:1)

    by Krach42 (227798) on Tuesday November 05 2002, @04:17AM (#4598049) Homepage Journal
    Can I get Wireless networking across the distance of my house now?

  • Woo Hoo! (Score:1)

    by UrGeek (577204) on Tuesday November 05 2002, @04:52AM (#4598100)
    The last mile problem is SOLVED!
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.

  • Crap! (Score:3, Funny)

    by sigwinch (115375) on Tuesday November 05 2002, @05:32AM (#4598159) Homepage
    Now I have to upgrade to phased-array chalk for my warchalking efforts!
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.

  • Is this within FCC regs? (Score:1)

    by Mister Mudge (472276) on Tuesday November 05 2002, @07:20AM (#4598554)
    I'm not sure whiich part of the FCC regulations 802.11b falls under, but it's probably the part that covers other unlicensed transmissions. I wouldn't be at all surprised if these phased-array antennae are not up-to-snuff legally, due to WAY high effective radiated power (ERP). The whole idea of unlicensed transmission is that it is in spectrum and at ERP levels that will not have an affect outside an extremely circumscribed area or cause undue interference ... and this is definitely NOT what the new array's goal is ... quite the opposite, in fact.

  • Insert Star Trek pun here (Score:1)

    by Gabrill (556503) <justinmahn.cox@net> on Tuesday November 05 2002, @07:51AM (#4598642)
    Scotty, beam me up.
    I'm givin' her all she's got, Cap'n! It's never been done before, but maybe if I create a phased array from spare phaser parts . . .
    It worked, Cap'n! We now have Warp 13! Where's my Romulan Ale?

  • cost (Score:2)

    by rot26 (240034) on Tuesday November 05 2002, @09:36AM (#4599163) Homepage Journal
    And how much is this puppy? I didn't see price mentioned anywhere.

  • Got me thinking... (Score:2)

    by TheSync (5291) on Tuesday November 05 2002, @09:57AM (#4599304) Homepage Journal
    Is this product the higher-tech equivalent of a bunch of WAPs with high-gain antennas pointed in different directions hooked into an Ethernet switch?

    You could use five biquad-bowtie [flakey.info] sector antennas pointed in different directions, since each has a beamwidth of about 70 degrees for the equivalent of an omnidirectional access point, but with 12dB gain. Of course, you'd need five access points and an Ethernet switch, plus short-range interference could be a problem.

  • Phased Array Mesh? (Score:2)

    by macemoneta (154740) on Tuesday November 05 2002, @12:08PM (#4600214) Journal
    Couldn't this technology be combined with mesh network technology? Instant cellular replacement, just add handsets.
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.

  • Last Post! (Score:1)

    by alpg (613466) on Tuesday November 19 2002, @01:34PM (#4708501) Homepage
    The last time somebody said, "I find I can write much better with a word
    processor.", I replied, "They used to say the same thing about drugs."
    -- Roy Blount, Jr.

    - this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...

  • Re:Is Timothy a script? (Score:1)

    by aweraw (557447) on Tuesday November 05 2002, @12:36AM (#4597615) Homepage
    funny...
    [ Parent ]

  • Re:What about upstream? (Score:1)

    by flatulus (260854) on Tuesday November 05 2002, @02:56AM (#4597922)
    Phased array antennas will provide receiver gain equal to transmitter gain if reception and transmission are on the same frequency (which is the case for 802.11). This is known as signal path reciprocity. In fact, the "Wi-Fi switch" probably first discovers the client when the client sends a "probe" or "associate" request, looking for connectivity. Once the "Wi-Fi switch" hears the client, it has the opportunity to determine the best tuning of the antenna, which will provide the highest signal gain when transmitting back to it.

    [ Parent ]

  • Re:Guide to +5:Funny Posting (Score:1)

    by Antos700 (581386) on Tuesday November 05 2002, @05:34AM (#4598165)
    Um, hello? Lets think about why they get all misty eyed over Ms. Portman... hmm, It could possibly have something to do with movies she's been in... Not enough? O.K. How about the words "star" and "wars"?
    [ Parent ]

  • Re:[ ... miles away ... ] (Score:1)

    by wa4osh (624434) on Sunday November 10 2002, @03:54PM (#4638384)
    4.3 miles is 6.9 Kilometers. (4.3 x 1.6)
    [ Parent ]
  • 26 replies beneath your current threshold.

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