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Meeting With Netpliance
Posted by
Nik
on Tue Apr 11, 2000 07:40 AM
from the NP:-Bodyrock dept.
from the NP:-Bodyrock dept.
Kalin R. Harvey writes: "Last week I wrote an article
which dealt with the i-opener net appliance from Netpliance
that everyone was so excited
about hacking last month. The response from the community
has been great, a lot of people really liked it. So did Netpliance it seems. I was recently contacted by their CTO, Marc
Willebeek-LeMair, and asked to meet with the company at their headquarters
"to brainstorm about the various issues" raised in the article. He described
my article as "intriguing", and I found the message to be very positive
overall; it means they have been listening. It means there is a good
chance that they want to do the right thing.
We haven't set a firm date yet, but are hammering out the details now.
What I want is to get from the /. community and the i-opener-hacker community
is feedback. Put aside the bad blood that has been brewing between the open source community and the company since they decided to thwart the hack. Look honestly at the situation and consider the issues involved.
What would you say to the decision-makers at Netpliance if
you had the chance?"
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Meeting With Netpliance
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I would like to buy (Score:3)
1. No ISP requirement
2. No modem
3. 100-mbit ethernet instead of the modem
4. 1024x768x32bit display
5. Modifiable (ie, has an IDE port)
6. Sells for a fair market price, so I'm not screwing i-opener over.
Make that box, send it to Circuit City at $300 / unit, and you'll be selling them by the thousands
suggestions (Score:3)
Of course the other direction is a hard-drived enabled, hack-able PC version priced at a reasonable level.
Re:Change your business model. Now. (Score:3)
Re:i-Opener possibilities (Score:3)
People didn't love it. Hackers loved it. There's a big difference. Netpliance isn't marketing this thing to hackers. They're marketing it to a much less technologically adept person than a hacker. The whole point is that it shouldn't just be cheap, but be so easy that a two-year old could do it. Old C64's while great, were not machines from grandma. Any machine is hackable given the right person. While hackable computers are nice, they should not be the business model. Face it, Slashdot may think it's this superimportant group, but in terms of market power, they are small, and Netpliance is not going to make money trying to cater to them.
My Wishlist... (Score:3)
There are a few changes that should make an iOpener fairly attractive to the linux/geek/hacker community...
PRICE - One of the BIG reasons the iOpener became popular in the first place was the dirt-cheap price. Obviously they were being sold at a loss. For a modifiable unit with no service being sold, expect the price to rise a bit - it'd still be REALLY nice to get a barebones unit for $199 or so, as long as there aren't any service contracts, etc...
ETHERNET - Most geeks/hackers already have an ISP. More commonly, they're paying for broadband access - Cable or (in some lucky areas) DSL. Most already have a computer. We're not going to want to pay ANOTHER ISP bill for slow dialup access. Swap out the modem for an ethernet port, so we can hook them up to the cable/dsl connection we already have.
IDE - Let's face it, this was the enabler for the hacks. If you want to target people who WOULD HAVE bought the machine to hack it, include a STANDARD IDE interface. Not pinswapped, not clipped -- standard. A HDD mounting bracket would be nice, but isn't really necessary if it'd add to the price.
NO OS - Since in the process of setting the machine up, we're going to get rid of the OS anyway (to replace it with Be, Linux, 'doze, or whatever), why make us pay for it in the first place? Save those licensing fees for those who can't install their own OS.
FLASH MEMORY - Okay, this is a bit of a point of contention, I'm sure - but my view is, use cheaper, non-flash memory, and assume that a HDD will be added for storage. Save a bit of money, and lower the cost a little.
TOUCH SCREEN - This would be REALLY cool, but is probably too expensive to implement while keeping the price down.
IrDA - Again, REALLY cool, but probably too expensive to implement at the price point we'd want.
PCMCIA - Since the iOpeners are so small, it'd make sense for them to have a PCMCIA port or two, if only for upgradability/expandability. Not sure how much one or two slots would add to the price, but it'd be a nice addition.
SPEED - Ramp up the processor speed a bit. I'm not saying to run the thing at 600mhz -- just make the thing a little snappier.
If they can do most of that for $199, I know I'd buy at least 2.
Re:Open the possibilities! (Score:3)
The market is very hungry for decent cheap thin clients. At the same time the cheapest offerings for now are above 1000 which just makes you go and buy a laptop or a PC.
Yeah, indeed, so many people have concluded to the death of the network computer ... but sheeesh, have you seen the price? Here in France it's close to 10kFF, which translates to $1600, whereas a full blown PC (128MB RAM, 14Gb hard drive, 17" monitor, CD Burner, DVD, ...) costs less! What's the fucking point?
True Story: in my previous job, they bought me a nice HP X11 terminal, the latest version. ... With a whopping 8 MB of RAM and 1MB video card! 5 year old technology ... list price: $3000!!!!!!! It just wasn't *useable*! I took an old pentium 100 off the scrap pile, put in a slightly better video card (2Mb! Crap but at least usable ...), installed RedHat, and whoooou ... I was flying compared to the beast they had given me. Plus I had a sound card, which HP sold probably for a wonderful price of $500 ... no kidding!!
Separate kb & mouse ports, not a splitter. (Score:3)
I wouldn't use the iOpener with the keyboard/gamepad it comes with. Make it easy to swap these parts out.
I agree, ethernet is better than a modem.
Good luck, Netpliance!
Jon
What people will use these for... (Score:3)
But NetPliance is probably looking for ways to sell the unmodified I-Opener as is without losing money on it. So here is what I'd like to do with an I-Opener:
- Replace the sucky Compaq Portable 486c (256 color LCD lunchbox) in the bedroom for nighttime slashdot reading
- MP3 Player/Recipe computer in the kitchen
- Bathroom Browsing (in the new ofuro!)
- Backyard browsing
- Intelligent Telephone (with the modem)
- Put one in the garage/workshop for reading woodworking tips/looking at digital plans/looking up auto repair info
- hook it up as a voicemail system
- Take 20 of them into my wife's classroom, hook them up to a network with a big fileserver.
These are all tasks (maybe with the exception of the bathroom idea) that I would be willing to pay $250 for the machine, even if I had to pay an extra $25 for the cable/bracket kit to add the hard drive and $50 for the ethernet card to replace the modem.So, what needs to be done:
- Fix the IDE connector (or sell/include the cable)
- Change the heatsink to allow for the IDE cable
- Pre-drill/tap mounting points for the hard drive bracket
- Sell/include a hard drive bracket
- Offer an ethernet adapter (a $50 charge to replace the modem, $75 in addition to the modem seems reasonable.)
Smart things for NetPliance to do:- List all the Linux-info on their web page (drivers to use, etc.) with links, or even make them availble for download
- Set up a forum for discussion of I-Opener mods (Maybe even I-Linux, I-Windows, and I-Other boards)
- Accept that they screwed up before and not try to charge people after the fact for service
- Figure out at what price they can make money on the I-Opener as-is (modifiable)
- Make the case less flimsy
If they do this stuff, I'll buy several.Why join 'em when you can beat 'em? (Score:3)
Netpliance has shown that there is a market for cheap-ass, open thin clients. Even though you're going to double your investment adding the mods to it, apparently geeks are willing to shell out $400-$600 to get one of these things up and running.
So how about a company with more of a proven commitment to Linux and Open Source developing soemthing similar?
Give me a flat screen, minimal hard drive (or large flash ROM, as someone else pointed out) and an Ethernet adaptor. (Would sound be necessary on something like this? I guess it depends on what you're using it for.) Hell, don't even give me a keyboard or mouse -- I can get cheap ones for about $20.
Preload Linux or *BSD, or just open the specs and let someone else do it for you.
How much would something like this cost to make? How much would people be willing to pay?
Re:Let's be honest (Score:3)
You are wrong about the price. Even at 700 it will still sell, though in small numbers.
The current price tag on a standalone LCD is between approx 900 (Viewsonic) and 1167$ (IBM). Add the thinnest mainboard possible and you get a price tag higher than the price of a cheap laptop.
i-Opener could spin this to a big win (Score:3)
What would the target audience think when they hear... (just one spin of many)
"In a world where computer prices are always dropping, computer [geeks] have begged one [city] start-up to quadruple prices, just to get their hands on them. They're called i-Opener, and here's their story... [cut to reporter. interviews include]
[Obvious techie: They were targetted at a non-technical market, but the design was so cool -- and was expandable. When world got out, the hardware types basically bought every machine on the market in two days. I know *I* want one. ]
[Lots of sexy promo footage]
[i-Opener spokesperson: Everyone loves them. We were buried in requests for more. We've decided to make a version of our product available to the technical hobbyist, at a competitive price. It has a few internal hobbyist connectors and the option for a different processor, but it's the same unit.
"But we started this computer to be an ultra-easy convenient and, okay, stylish way for ordinary people to use the internet, without having to learn all that computer stuff We're loyal to our original customers -- the casual home internet user -- and will continue to sell our units at our original bargain price of $100 to anyone who signs our x-year internet user contract. You'll need that internet connection anyway, so we think that is a fair way to tell if you're the type of home internet user we started this company for.
"These units are hot, though. We're fighting to keep prices down this summer, but after that... well, with people already snapping them up at four times the price... well, we can only make some many of these things, and this will be a hot Christmas item. If you want some for the grandkids, better get them now]
Take-home for the layman (target market):
This hot hot hot gadget is cheap, and the geeks are fighting over them like cabbage patch dolls. But I can get one for just $100.
They keep saying its easy. It sure looks easy. Maybe I can use one without my neighbors laughing after me -- I mean even hackers use them! It does look kinda cool.
The company sounds nice, too. They're not milking us. That's unusual. Maybe I should buy their stock
__________
Already said it, but... (Score:3)
"You're stumbled blindly into an undiscovered market with no competitors--the market for low-cost, low-profile low-end graphical terminals for home networks. Thousands of geeks are buying old PIIs and expensive, large monitors for their home networks but would really like slicker, more integrated boxen like your i-opener. You'll have to modify the pricing and hardware, do a bit of swapping out, but you can still provide a low-cost solution with a low profile for this market and make money head over foot..."
Re:Change your business model. Now. (Score:3)
a) A non-twisted IDE-contact (Easy to fix)
b) An ethernet interface
The last one would certainly be an incitament for people to by that version, not the current one, if they where to use it with Linux.
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
Cheap flat screens (Score:3)
--
It's got to have RJ-45 or Wireless LAN (Score:3)
This sounds really lame, but I want one to act as a "front end" to my home network's streaming MP3 server. Right now I've got a crufty old P100 laptop doing duty, and it can barely run X and XMMS at the same time (I'm serious: I've tried BlackBox and even fvwm). I've got around 20GB of stored music, and I've boxed up my CDs and put them away. I've spent a lot of time on my home network and my music system. So having a front end to that is required -- I can't go back to a regular stereo. When I first saw the I-opener, I thought I'd found that front end.
What I need is a low cost, fairly small footprint machine that can get on a network. Once I have that, I can get Linux on it somehow. I've considered buying an I-opener and taking the 3 month hit for their subscription (even though I won't use it even once) just to get a machine that I can hack into.
I know the "moderation window" on this post is closed (which is that first four hour window one has in which to post such that the comment will not be buried in other posts and which can therefore be moderated up or down), but I figured I'd throw my couple cents in anyway. However, if you do read this, tell them to put in a PC Card slot and let us take care of the rest.
(Hey, I just had a thought: Anyone remember Heathkit? Anyone here remember putting together one of their kits? Well, how about if Netpliance sold "Open Source" kits that included stuff like that HDD mounting plate and such. What they need to do is let people hack into the things and then get all the best hacks incoporated into one -- or more -- kits that people can buy. Sell them the regular I-opener and the kit for whatever extra. Then give them a special warranty and license to hack. It'd be Open Source Hardware, and pretty damn cool. They could even give a couple percent of the proceeds to the guys that first made the hacks that get sold. Since they wouldn't have to assemble anything, there'd be no re-tooling and the only additional SKUs would be for the kits: the BOM for the I-opener itself would stay the same and so would the cost to produce them. And yet everyone would be very happy, because they'd get to play around with a Philips Head and such.)
-B
My advice to Netpliance (Score:3)
My advice to Netpliance is to consider several alternative products based on the iopener hardware but tailored to the Linux/hacker community (and priced at profit making levels):
Each device shuld be essentially the same hardware as the current iopener with only minor variations in the manufacturing details. The devices each cover distinctly different segments within a single market (SOHO users and Linux/*BSD hackers) and could easly be sold at competitive and profitable prices.
The fact that Netpliance was able to offer the iopener at all indicates that it is only a matter of time before someone is offering these products to consumers. There is no good reason that Netpliance should be that someone.
Re:Circuit City and Netpliance (Score:3)
Either they are much cheaper to produce than folks think, or Netpliance just doesn't learn.
The only other difference (so far) with the new arrangement is that they have apparantly clipped 4 of the HD pins, made a BIOS update (which so far no one has demonstrated is "disabled" in any way) and epoxied the BIOS chip.
Well... some sort of soldering iron and EEPROM burner is in order.
Re:Set up a wireless NC edition (Score:3)
I got the same argument from people when I built a field data collection system on the palm pilot -- not rugged enough, they said. Pay $1500 dollars for a rubberized handheld field computer running DOS or some exotic OS, with a low res two line LCD display, they said.
I expect the price for a PalmOS device to go south of $100 pretty darn soon, now, and it turns out they're plenty rugged enough. It's an easy sell becaue its cheaper and the user experience is better.
I expect the same to happen with x86 flat panel computers. Sure, if I had to field a solution today I'd probably find some specialized vendor, but eventually the power of commodity hardware to provide a cheaper and better solution will prevail.
Ideas for NetPliance (Score:3)
1) Deliver the already-promised goods. The original plan said nothing of an ISP contract, or a mysterious 6-8 week Circuit City delay. Some people in my area have postulated that the delay is part of an attempt to get people to call NP about their orders, at which time the new-"upgraded"-model-and-terms-of-service are fed to them. Others think it's merely to give NP time to get all the new gooped-and-maimed IOpeners built and shipped. Either way, NP's not making any friends out there. Give 'em the info straight, guv'nor!
2) If NP *must* pander to the stockholders, then so be it, but have the honor to deal fairly with the people that bought IOs with the understanding that they can be noodled, without an ISP contract. I'd guess NetPliance will easily recoup their losses on all the media coverage and brand-awareness this...erm...situation will give them. What they need to do is turn the situation around, make it positive PR.
3) On that note, opening the IO (no pun intended) is a good idea, as are the new pricing options for no-ISP and extra-hackable gadgetry, but it is not enough. The fair treatment of all customers is a big thing with the Geek Community (witness our love of MS business practices), and the perceived shafting of the Mar 16-20th customers will be a burr in NPs saddle until resolved.
4) The new mods. The Engineer's Motto is: if you can build it, you can deconstruct it. Just as the software industry found with copy protection, any safeguard can be circumvented. How many customers is NP losing while they retool their production lines to goop-n-maim the IOs? Signing an ISP contract at purchase would probably be quite sufficient to legally enforce continued cash inflow (IANAL). What does NP care if their customers tool their IO to run BeOS, so long as NP gets their $$? It's even better if the hackers *don't* dial-in: they don't use NP's ISP bandwidth and phone lines, but NP collects the cash anyway. The only way I could see NP not liking this idea (in my admittedly limited vision) is that they're hoping that ppl will be too lazy/forgetful to cancel if they truly don't want the service.
Just a few thoughts.
Future I-Openers to have IDE header pins snipped? (Score:3)
I just read on one of the I-Opener mailing list archives that I-Openers are now being shipped with the IDE header pins clipped off the motherboard. Can anyone confirm or deny that this is the current policy?
This would be the sensible thing for Netpliance to do to prevent the majority of hacks over the short term. It is a relative quick, simple, and effective procedure.
I put down a deposit at Circuit City on an IOpener as soon as I realized that this was going to be the only way to get one at the $99 price. I've seence been back several times to check on the status, as well as to other Circuit Cities in the Baltimore/metro area. It seems as if there have been no shipments of IOpeners to Curcuit City from Netpliance since news of the hack hit the net. My guess is that there is a team of pinsnippers down in Austin (or wherever the units are built/distributed) opening and altering all units before shipping them out. Either that, or Netpliance just isn't shipping any at all to Circuit City until the fad blows over and people loose interest.
Has anyone gotten an IOpener from Circuit City in the past few weeks? If you did, what was the staus of your pins?
-p.
EASYER win-win situation. (Score:3)
I have a SONY laptop, and I wanted to get an extra (kanji) keyboard. No go, since they won't ship parts to anyone BUT a sony authorized refurb center. A part breaks on my laptop? I have to ship it back, I can't install it myself. From a hacking standpoint, even simple customerization of the Sony laptop will require me jumping through lots and lots of hoops.
OTOH, take a good look at Handspring. I can go to their website, and with a few simple clicks I can order blank springboard module plastics - the same parts used in production springboards. I can get full access to their documentations, wiring schematics of their springboard modules, and software APIs that they have changed in PalmOS to call them. And, guess what, my friend's senior EE project he's building a smartmedia springboard reader. A simple act of selling their hardware and parts to anybody and opening the documentation makes the visor a lot more hackable.
-=- SiKnight
i-Opener possibilities (Score:3)
Re:Circuit City and Netpliance (Score:3)
that way they will make some money off their products,
This is the idea I originally had until I remembered that even at $199 the I-opener is a loss leader. The netpliance originally cost $300 as can be seen at the bottom of this article [iminorities.com] and in this article [epinions.com] it states they upped the price to $300 after using $199 as an intro price. The current price of $99 is a promotion and is not a price the company will be able to maintain for the long term.
Secondly 1 year of service costs $250 ($21.50 * 12) which is about a $100 of profit per year. A more suitable and realistic plan would probably be
- 3. sell the I-opener at $450 to those who sign up for at least 2 years of service. (Total customer expenditure - $450)
PS: We all know that being a loss leader never works out, after all look at what happened to CDNow [zdnet.com].Re:Let's be honest [Something from Nothing] (Score:3)
My gut tells me this is right on target. All the exciting hacks are in the principle of creation: something from (almost) nothing. Or, something completely different than intended.
In this case, there is a feeling of mischeviousness. Almost a kind of "ha ha, so there" against an obvious attempt to build in a dependency which didn't naturally exist (i.e., Netpliance ISP was the only way to use the system).
It's this kind of resourcefulness that encouraged my company to begin using Linux a few years ago: older machines (486 and slower Pentiums) that were in no shape to run NT Server, or Win9x as desktops, could serve as excellent Linux servers for different tasks. The feeling was, "Hey! Let's beat the system." Instead of paying the WinTel monopoly regular tithes (worse, actually) according to a GM-like obsolesence plan (why do you think MSFT started naming OS versions by year? It's like a 1999 Ford Mustang, by now it should feel old--don't you want a 2001 model?).
I'm all in favor of (ethical) hacks. The $400 MSN rebate "hack" was, IMO, not "ethical" because the deal was presented as quid pro quo, but the I-Opener deal was not originally presented as such; the ISP was an option. Only in retrospect did Netpliance add terms to the deal to enforce their "business model".
Slashdot reported on another interesting hack in February: the netBSD port to the Workpad z50 [slashdot.org]. I bought one of these beauties (it really is) and have been following the NetBSD and LinuxCE mailing lists as to progress being made. This was an ethical hack: take a discontinued but interesting machine and make it better. WinCE is pretty awful (but usable for text editing, I found) and the ability to add my native enviroment to this little treasure is too nifty! I never would have paid $1000 for the unit. Not when a real laptop is not much more. But, I did buy at under $400. And, by looking on eBay daily, it seems a lot of people are still buying these things (although the price is going up).
What I'd like (Score:3)
Of course, you'd definitely do well to sell mod kits so that customers do not need much technical skill to plug in a hard drive.
Consider upping the screen resolution. That would be sweet. Definitely an option worth paying money for.
Definitely allow extensive feedback (preferably in a web-based discussion board) for people running Linux et al on the hardware. It could serve as free advertising and tech support.
Basically, have the option of selling the hardware for a profit for those people who want to run Linux on them. That's all we ask for.
Re:Change your business model. Now. (Score:3)
I think you misspelled "nonexistant" as in virtually nonexistant.
People flocked to the i-opener because it was cheap. At $99 or even $200 it's a bargain. But at a more realistic price of perhaps $600, the market dries up again. You and I both might buy one at that price (I know I want one), but there wouldn't be the huge demand that there is now.
That said, I think that Netpliance needs to get its contracts in order. If they want/need people to be obligated for some minimum term of service to cover the initial hardware cost, they need to have it specified properly in a real sign-it-and-mean-it contract with appropriate penalties for early cancellation just like a cell phone contract.
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Leave it disassembled (Score:3)
A few requests to Netpliance: (Score:4)
2. Consider creating and selling a "pre-hacked" system that includes a hard drive.
3. "Open" the unit (fully document it) so that external peripherals may more easily be connected and used.
4. Uh, er, add a PC-Card (PCMCIA) slot? (Mainly to make adding Ethernet easier.)
Anything more, I feel, will be "guilding the lily", taking the system far from the current design, and thus possibly losing the benefits of using the same production runs for multiple purposes.
My ideal use for a "hacked" system would be as a convenient Web browsing system to have on an end table, conveniently available to use during TV commercials.
From the basic system, here are the hacks I'd like to add:
1. Wireless networking.
My main system is in another room, connected to a cable modem. It has more horsepower and connectivity than the i-Opener, so I'd like to take advantage of it as easily as possible. While it is no problem running A/C to where I'd put the i-Opener, getting Ethernet there would be a pain.
2. InfraRed I/O.
Possibly a full IrDA port, but anything that would allow the iOpener to easily control my TV and VCR.
3. X-10 Firecracker Interface.
I've just started automating my home, one lamp and appliance at a time, and having convenient centralized control and access in the living room would be convenient.
4. Remote Keyboard with Integrated Pointer.
RF is preferred, but IR will do. I don't need the i-Ioener screen to be in front of me, but the keyboard pretty much has to. (Unless, of course, some future i-Opener were to include a touch screen or a simple pointer device integrated in to the bezel of the display.)
I could do all of this with a retired laptop (perfectly capable laptops can be had for under $500), but they lack, well, style.
While I would never buy the i-Opener service for myself, my computer-phobic father is turning 70 this summer, and I intend to give him an i-Opener to finally get him online in the easiest way possible (he already detests the idea of WebTV).
An excellent product, with the added bonus of being emminently hackable!
-BobC
(The guy who never remembers his
Re:I got slammed (Score:4)
Re:What would I say? (Score:4)
We are looking for a cheap HTML terminal... (Score:4)
Yes, at work, we are moving from character-based apps. to HTML-based apps. This way, we could use an i-Opener derivative as our platform.
We are talking on 500 to 1,500 units here. Serious bussiness.
The requiremets would be an i-Opener with those add-ons:
-Ethernet Card (10/100)
-Bootable Hard Disk Drive (1Gb its OK)
-A way to install any desired OS (Linux/Win-dos would be primary choices) and a browser (Mozilla?)
-Key mapping instructions to links their "unique" keys to our applications (help, mail, web, home...)
-Mouse port
-A range of CPUs to choose from (w/ or w/o MMx, 3D instructions, 200 to ??? MHz
-Nice price
I guess all this is pretty easy to bundle to any i-Opener. I mean, Netpliance can easily substitute the modem for a ethernet card, attach a 2.5" HDD to the IDE port and provide a Y-cordline for a regular KB+Mouse... ot their KB (without the pizza key, please!).
BTW, we are based at good-old Barcelona-Europe (yes, that's why my english looks wierd sometimes
How many corporations wouldn't go for a cheap "i-O-Client"? Not only for HTML but any C/S application will work great with it. You have all the Hospitals, Small bussiness,
I will appreciate if someone can convince Netpliance that they're in the path of a big-bucks bussiness. We are willing to buy some!
Thank you in advance,
Sinner Falcatas
(remove NOSPAM to email me)
How Netpliance can (and CAN'T) make money. (Score:4)
Get real.
First, only requiring three months of service is asking for trouble. After paying the $65 for three months of service, whether I use it or not, I can take the hardware and run. Netpliance gets $165, I own the hardware free and clear. Now some people have estimated the cost of this box at around $300. I'm not very good at math, but I think that means Netpliance loses $135.
Second, ISP service costs money, even at wholesale. If you get it for $5, and resell it at $22, that's $17 revenue. To make up the $201 difference between $99 loss-leader price and $300 cost, your customer has to stick around at least 12 months. That's right, a whole year. (I had to get out the calculator for that.) The service contract only requires three months.
So what should Netpliance do?
Netpliance should figure out a reasonable markup to the actual manufacturing cost of the i-opener and then sell it at that price in a completely hackable version. Maybe even include one of those laptop IDE cables and a hard drive mount inside the case, so it's all ready to go.
Netpliance should then sell the same i-opener for $99, with a service contract that requires at least as much service as will generate the required amount of revenue to bring in a similar amount of money. Maybe a little more, since it's spread out over time. A 12-18 month contract seems appropriate.
Netpliance should then sit back, relax and let us hackers get to what we do best: hacking. Watch the ideas we come up with and our prototypes and maybe even buy some of the ideas, or even hire some of the hackers, for future products.
---
Circuit City and Netpliance (Score:4)
I know that at least 25 of these 28 machines were to have hard drives hooked up to them, I don't know if Netpliance already has the money from circuit city, or if cc is just holding on to it ... all I know is Netpliance is going to see all their income DROP like a brick through glass when these I-openers do come back into stock.
In my opinion Netpliance should have done the following:
1: sell the I-opener at $99 to those who sign up for at least 2 years of service.
2: sell the i-opener for $149 to those who sign up for 1 year of service
3: sell the i-opener at $199 to those who don't sign up for service
that way they will make some money off their products, instead of knowing that they will have to dig themselves out of a BIG BLACK HOLE in the coming 6 months ... put everything back to the way it should be ... heck .. I'd pay $199 for one, it's still better than the old Packard Bell we have sitting on our shelves for $450 ...!
DaiTengu
--------
Damage Inc. BBS
Let's be honest (Score:5)
It's very cool that Netpliance wants to work with us, and if I had extra money, I might buy a $600 device just to affirm that. But realistically, how many of you would really buy one of these at a price allowing them to make a profit?
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Possibilities abound! (Score:5)
As someone who has had an I-Opener on order since the last slashdot article, I am dissapointed that Netpliance has taken up such a hostile attitude towards the hackers who are essentially developing other Netpliance product lines. I've been watching an I-Opener message board [kenseglerdesigns.com] and there are people doing marvelous things with hackable (and some non-hackable) I-Os. A popular use is to mount the device in a car and use it as a GPS, MP3 player and/or digital dashboard. The "hackers" (term used loosely, no flame por favor) are going out of their way by a long-shot to modify these devices for general use, sometimes costing hundreds of Altarian dollars.
I believe that if Netpliance offered a slightly more expensive general-use I-Opener they would be astounded at the uses the community will come up with, and the ingenuity of the geeks they're trying so hard to thwart may become a key ally in the company's longevity
Would that be a C-to-B business model?
CapnBryRe:Open the possibilities! (Score:5)
1. It has the rumored non-loss-leader price (around 300$).
2. It has no stupid ISP contracts. Yeah right, what the fsck will this ISP offer me here across the pond.
3. It is extensible and has full specs and no M$ fee hanging on it.
4. And if they sell it in Europe of course.
The market is very hungry for decent cheap thin clients. At the same time the cheapest offerings for now are above 1000 which just makes you go and buy a laptop or a PC.
So why don't these people get a clue and start selling a separate hacker/thin-client pack.
Because thin clients have their place more in home than in the office. I do not want to hear any fscking fan and hard disk noise in my room. There is an equipment rack for that purpose...
Privacy issues? (Score:5)
Browsing through the netpliance site, I came across two pieces of information that together make me worry...
From their development job [netpliance.com] listings:
Data Mining Developer
From their add-ons FAQ page: [netpliance.com]
Q: Can I connect external storage devices, such as a ZIP drive, via the USB port?
A: Not at this time. Everything on your i-opener is backed up on our network. (emphasis added)
So... someone with an iOpener contract: does Netpliance mention the fact that your data will be backed up on their network, or contain any mention of the fact that Netpliance may be mining either your backed-up data or data recorded about your network usage (browsing, email) habits? It occurs to me that this may be one reason they are so adamant about requiring people to use their ISP service with the iOpener...
Set up a wireless NC edition (Score:5)
I'd like to see these things adaptible as NCs with wireless networking (perhaps by having a PC card slot) and a small amount of persistent storage, enough to boot a stripped down Linux or BSD.
Here are some applications I'd see for such a setup.
Trade shows information kiosks.
Interactive supermarket and mall directories.
Low end word processing and Internet access workstations.
Interactive museum displays.
Cybercafe terminals.
Warehouse and point of sale application terminals.
I'd like to put one or more of these in every store and restaurant in my nice little suburb's main street, and have a town commerce network with information on stores, sales going on, amenities and services.
It's not just the price, it's the cool form factor (Score:5)
I'm willing to bet that over 75% of Slashdot readers don't buy Dell, or Compaq, or Gateway - they prefer to go to Fry's, or order online from their favorite distributor, and build the exact configuration they want. It's almost a matter of pride. But some of those same people -- not the starving students, of course
Why? Because they have no other alternative that meets their requirements (i.e. small, lightweight, portable.) You *can't* build your own laptop from off-the-shelf components.
This i-opener gives people the opportunity to build *their own* network terminal, with the features they want, with a form-factor that no one else will sell them. *THAT* is the untapped market which i-opener can make money from, if they are smart and nimble enought to take advantage of it.
Change your business model. Now. (Score:5)
1. The cat is out of the bag. Forget about putting it back in. This being said, the confluence of Netpliance hardware and Open source opens up many possibilities:
2. Market two versions of your product: one is your QNX-based model for folks who want easy 'net access. Second version is an "hackable" model. Make it a bit more expensive, perhaps, but let the hackers be hackers and sell them the machine!. Then let them hack all they want and incorporate the best changes in the next generation.
3. Target other markets: schools, colleges and universities could use cheap machines with standardized, open-source OS installed. Target large corporations, who need a computer on every desk, and sell them these machines. With Linux or one of the BSDs, you can overturn the Microsoft monopoly.
4. Penguins are your best friends.... Daemons may be a little bit more controversial, but they are also cute. =)
Welcome to Open Source!
Open Source? (Score:5)
Dear Netpliance,
I think it is great that you are embracing the open source community by
announcing the Developers Corner. I am glad to see the Developer 100
Pilot Program announced, but I feel that it doesn't support an "open
development" process that you describe.
The open source community works at solving problems by working together,
collaborating with each other. People can pitch in and work on part of a
project that interests them and/or is their area of expertise. People
work together on projects, not because they are given incentive to do so
(i.e. free I-openers), but because their project interests them.
The two main problems with the 100 Pilot Program is that...
1. It provides the wrong incentive for people to contribute to the open
source movement. I've already talked to many friends who say that they
will apply to the program just to receive a free I-opener. You can't
expect many contributions from someone who are in it just for a free
I-opener.
Instead you need to target the people who are actually interested in
developing things. One way to do this would be to devote resources to
webpages or discussion forums about specific areas of development. By
doing so, Netpliance would also be able to focus the development that
was going on. Hosting these webservices would probably be cheaper then
giving away 100 I-openers, and the developers would do the work of
creating the sites/BBS's/whatever as they were needed.
A good example of a company devoting resources to an open-source
development is Netscape. Go to http://mozilla.org/ and see what they
have done to rewrite the Netscape source code. Netscape 6.0 is a product
of the Mozilla project; we will have to see for ourselves if it is a
good thing or not. (B.T.W. Netscape 6.0 is much smaller then it's past
versions. I smell an embeddable web browser!)
2. By limiting the number to 100 people and then making it difficult for
others to work with their I-openers, you are severly hindering an open
development process. There are already close to 100 websites on the
internet about modifying the I-opener and the number of people working
with these units is much greater.
I'm sure that you've already recieved over 100 emails from people asking
to recieve an I-opener to turn it into something or other. Once these
are given out this will prevent developers with potentially good ideas
from being able to work on thier ideas.
As I have already said, a better solution would be to host discussion
forums and support the development from the inside. This would better
for Netpliance economically, allow Netpliance to dynamically control
development, and probably give Netpliance a better relationship with
it's open source developers.
Thank You,
Ben
Remember the KISS rule, people (Score:5)
Reading the comments people have posted, a common theme is "Just add [foo] to it". I think this is the wrong approach -- if you want [foo], add it yourself; if the specs are open, someone should be able to figure it out. The most attractive feature of the i-opener is it's price -- start adding more hardware, and you are going to drive the price way up. IMHO, a reasonable price for a hackable i-opener, as-is (or as-was, before March 20th) is around $300-$350. Any significant changes to the design will involve significant re-tooling charges at the factory.
Now, if these folks are smart, they'll make an i-opener 2, which would have 10baseT ethernet, more expansion options, and a slightly bigger case , maybe with an (empty) 2.5 or 3.5 drive bay. They don't really have to add any new components -- just give us the headers to attach our own, we'll do the rest. They can then take the best ideas and sell them as after-market add-ons, to get some additional revinue out of the beasties. They can also make money by selling an i-opener linux distro, optimized to work on their hardware.
An expandable i-opener, with ethernet & documented expansion headers, could go for as much as $500, and maybe a little more. Price is a serious issue with this -- overprice it and it will fail; find a good price point and it will become a standard, filling the gap between a full-blown PC and a palmtop. There is definatly a market to be tapped here, guys -- don't blow your chances to dominate a new, untapped market by being stupid and/or geedy.
(And, btw, reexamine your distribution model -- using only Circuit City is going to hurt you in the long run. Either use the Dell/Gateway model and only sell direct to the consumer, or put the things everywhere.
"The axiom 'An honest man has nothing to fear from the police'
TOS badness (Score:5)
I got slammed (Score:5)
They added a $19.11 charge to my credit card 2 weeks later, and I went through a truly awful phone call with them whereupon they asserted they could charge me for things based on their company policy.
(they changed their TOS well after I bought the machine).
Discover gave me a temporary credit and are currently "investigating" the situation. I imagine it will go like this: "NetPliance, why did you charge our customer for something he did not order?", "Discover, it is our company policy to do so." "NetPliance, please hand over your merchant account."
So, for me, tell NetPliance the basics of how money works. Remind them, for their own good, that they need some sort of agreement from the customer before executing a transaction. Yea, remind them that they cannot charge me money just because someone at NetPliance assumed they could. etc.
I fear them.
The above comments and the URL below are mutually exclusive.