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Virtual War

Posted by JonKatz on Tue May 30, 2000 09:04 AM
from the precision-violence-in-a-risk-averse-culture dept.
In a powerful new book on the conflict in Kosovo, author Michael Ignatieff asks not only whether virtual war is moral, but whether it can work. Precision violence, he warns, is now at the disposal of a risk-averse culture, unwilling to sacrifice and determined to stay out of harm's way. A compelling and convincing look at more (in this case, tragic) unthinking use of technology. (Read More)
Virtual War: Kosovo and Beyond
author Michael Ignatieff
pages 246
publisher Metropolitan Books
rating 9/10
reviewer Jon Katz
ISBN 0-8050-6490-7
summary Why Virtual Wars don't work

When it comes to war, writes author Michael Ignatieff, virtual reality is seductive. We see ourselves as noble warriors and our enemies as despicable tyrants. We deploy our sophisticated weaponry -- in our minds itself the hallmark of a superior civilization -- against one-dimensional villains fighting with clubs and spears. We see war as a surgical scalpel and not a bloodstained sword. In so doing we mis-describe ourselves and the instruments of death. "We need," he writes, "to stay away from such fables of self-righteous invulnerability. Only then can we get our hands dirty. Only then can we do what is right."

In recent years, Americans have made it clear they don't want to get their hands dirty, and there isn't anything close to a consensus of what is right. Believing their technology to be superior and infalliable, they are happy to let it do their fighting for them.

Part of the sometimes horrific history of the 20th century is that technology is no good or worse than the moral character of the people using it. The idea of the Virtual War is a uniquely American contribution to this chilling history.

The philosopher Paul Kahn has argued that 'riskless warfare in pursuit of human rights' is a moral contradiction, since the idea behind human rights is that all life is of equal value. So called "risk-free warfare" presumes that our lives matter more than those we are intervening to save.

This idea is underscored in this devastatingly-documented attack on the lack of reason, moral foundation, clear goals or concrete results behind the recent conflict in Bosnia, an American-conceived Virtual War fought primarily by by hi-tech weaponry rather than people. The war was meticulously designed not only to force the Serbs out of Kosovar, but perhaps equally important, to be politically palatable to the American public. Thus the idea of the Virtual War, a conflict in which our technology would supplant the warrior willing to die on our behalf. In the Virtual War, machines do all of the fighting and bleeding for us. Except, of course, for their hapless targets.

Ignatieff (a frequent contributor to the New Yorker and producer of an award-winning TV series on natonalism) was present in the Balkans before, during and after the Bosnian conflict, writes clearly and with laser-like authority and confidence. He zeroes in on American techno-hubris, the idea that a handful of people running computer consoles in distant bases can wage or win a complex military victory, even in the most complex of conflicts.

He reminds us that the victory in Kosova was, to say the least, ambiguous. Far fewer Serb soldiers and equipment were killed in the Virtual Combat than we were led to believe. Although the Serbs did eventually withdraw, in part because of our relentless bombing of civilian targets far from the battlefield, and NATO troops entered Kosovo in their wake, there was no Serb surrender. Nothing was resolved. No legal or other agreements to resolve the conflict have been negotiated or ratified.

On a smaller but still bloody scale, the conflict continues today and is, in fact, worsening. The tanks NATO generals assured us had been destroyed mysteriously emerged from the brush and rumbled back home. Serbia is rebuilding its infrastructure.

"Why do virtual wars end so ambiguously?" asks Ignatieff: "Nations impose unconditional surrender on their enemies only when they have suffered some harm -- death of their citizens, loss of their territory -- which seems to require a fight to the death. Wars fought in the name of the human rights of other nation's national minorities are bound to be self-limiting. We fight for victory and unconditional surrender only when we are fighting for ourselves."

The political and military leaders who planned the Virtual War in Kosovo clearly grasped this idea from the first, even though the American public was never directly told. Missiles and smart bombs assaulted what pilots and data-interpreters hundreds, even thousands of miles away, believed were tanks, troop carriers and gun emplacements. Only a handful of NATO troops, mostly Americans, were involved, and the only casualties they suffered during the conflict were accidental, not in combat. Many of the casualties were civilians killed indirectly by technicians hundreds of miles away who often had no idea anybody had been killed.

"Virtual Wars" is a brilliant exercise both in journalism and moral reasoning. It's also yet another parable and warning about the unthinking American fascination with technology as an all-encompassing, infallible means to and end. Ignatieff documents that the technology used in this Virtual War was much less effective than we were led to believe during the fighting. In any case, he foresees, the American monopoly on this machinery will inevitably end, and it will soon be available to other countries and political groups. We are, he cautions, setting an awful precedent -- it's all right to unleash fearful weapons on unseen targets if you do so in the name of human rights.

The Virtual War was more or less invented in the Persian Gulf when transfixed Americans were hypnotized by the laser-guided video bomb flights and explosions released every night for the evening news. Here was a savvy, spin-conceived conflict if ever there was one: an unequivocally bad dictator pummeled by thousands of superbly-armed American soldiers who suffered few casualties and were led by a General as good with sound bites as he was with a field map. Years later, some people still puzzle why Saddam is still in charge, why the core of his army is intact, why many of the people who were encouraged by the United States to challenge him have been slaughtered, why he is rearming. But that is less riveting than the notion of the Virtual War, and the video on the evening news.

If "Virtual War" has a flaw, it may be in failing to take account the influence of modern media on the shaping of military conflicts. The U.S. military left Vietnam convinced they were undermined as much by grisly TV footage shown at home as by the North Vietnamese. Since that war, the military has taken extraordinary pains to make sure that they control the footage that makes it to the evening news. If they can't always win on the battlefied, they've sure conquered the mainstream media, desperate for such graphic, riveting footage. Consider the TV images from Vietnam to Iraq: mangled American bodies to imploding Iraqi radar stations and warehouses. But that's a minor oversight This a terrific book, richly documented, written in a spare and accessible way, and profoundly persuasive.

Ignatieff asks the right questions. Is it moral to kill others when we refuse to make any sacrifices ourselves? Can a "Virtual War" fought by machines controlled from great distances, really conquer countries, resolve conflicts, and promote lasting settlements?

Can any country like the U.S. muster the determination and will -- evident in all of its previous wars up until Vietnam -- to do whatever it takes to win even as our leaders concede the conflict --thus the principle -- isn't worth any any substantial material or human cost to us?

The Kosovo operation, writes Ignatieff, is the paradigm of this paradoxical form of warfare: where technological omnipotence is vested in the hands of risk-averse political cultures. "Precision violence is now at the disposal of a risk-adverse culture, unconvinced by the language of military sacrifice, skeptical about the costs of foreign adventures and determined to keep out of harm's way."

Purchase this book at Fatbrain.

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  • virtual refugees by sparkes (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:05AM
  • Virtual War by ViXX0r (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:07AM
  • Red flags by andy@petdance.com (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:09AM
  • An excellent article on shortcomings of tech war.. by tcd004 (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:14AM
  • Virtuous reality (Score:3)

    by Signal 11 (7608) on Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:14AM (#1037967)
    I'm not in a position to comment on what the author has to say as I have not read the book, but I can share with you my own outlook on "virtual" morality. The virtual (online) world is rapidly taking the shape and form of the real world. It has money, it has people, it has little governments with both facism and democracy and everything in between. In all the ways that count, humanity has migrated most of its identity into the virtual world. We have also carried with us social and other conventions learned from the real world.

    We fight wars with guns in the real world. We fight wars with scripts, computers, and bandwidth online. We trade money online through credit cards, we chat online through e-mail and IRC. We telecommute for our jobs. We have a plethora of technologies to interface the realworld's knowledge and information directly into the virtual one.

    Yet despite the overwhelming evidence that the virtual world is a mirror of the realworld, we continue to treat this medium as somehow different from the real one. Our legal conventions somehow didn't cross the digital divide, and we're left with the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, the CDA, software patents, and "e-commerce". It seems that the world has fallen under the dillusion that if someone creates something "new" in the virtual world that is "old" in the real world.. it must be valuable and something to be protected. This is the single most dangerous idea threatening the virtual world - it could easily destroy it or render it a useless wasteland of advertisements and billboards, push technology, and download-only bandwidth.

    That's my take on virtual morality - it is just the same as realworld morality, only mirrored and adapted. Minus one minor glitch in people's thinking: that the two are somehow seperate and not to be mixed.

  • historically... by macx666 (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:16AM
  • War or Games? by hellmo (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:17AM
  • Don't miss the attached chart... by tcd004 (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:18AM
  • Re:As an American ... by hellmo (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:21AM
  • Cowardice by Sinjun (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:22AM
  • War Correspondent by carlos_benj (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:22AM
  • by Alarmist (180744) on Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:23AM (#1037974) Homepage
    What we need to keep in mind is that the "war" in Kosovo was merely a ploy to direct public attention away from a developing scandal in the government. While we may agree that genocide and murder are bad things, they were not the real reason for an American-led presence in that troubled land.

    We should also ask ourselves the real reasons for the Persian Gulf "war". Contrary to popular belief, it wasn't about oil--only 11% of the United States total oil consumption for that year came from nations that could possibly have been affected (Kuwait, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE). In fact, we were getting more oil from Iraq than from Kuwait in the year before the war started. Even after the war, the United States government repeatedly chastized the restored Kuwaiti government for its poor human-rights record, but did this out of the spotlight in venues that the U.S. public was unlikely to explore.

    What's the agenda here? Why is the United States spending so much time and effort bombing people with alleged "precision" munitions (munitions which, in the Gulf War at least, were later shown to have only a 40% hit rate--a far cry from the perception that every bomb hit every target). We need to ask ourselves what the government is doing with all of this money, and who the next target of those weapons will be.

    The United States government has shown, in recent years, a great intolerance for certain "fringe" groups. These munitions, once honed to perfection (after being tested on foreign soil in conflicts that are generated out of thin air), may be used in the future to silence groups that dare to speak out against the government.

    We are right to be afraid of this, but we should not let that fear paralyze us. The government prefers to use smoke and mirrors when fighting these battles; only the blinding light of the truth will save us.

  • Moral War? by Infosquawk (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:25AM
  • Huh? (Score:4)

    by Kaa (21510) on Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:26AM (#1037976) Homepage
    It seems to me that the guy is saying that in order for a war to be moral enough people on your side have to be killed.

    Minimum acceptable loss ratio?

    "Sorry, gentlemen, you suffered less than 15% of our casualties. It is now quite clear that we are the 'good' side and you are the 'evil' side."

    I can understand being morally uncomfortable about risklessly killing people at a distance. I would guess this is a remnant from the times when personal man-to-man battles were the only honorable form of combat. But, really, arguing that you MUST pay in blood to achieve military goals...

    Kaa
  • Lives are all that Matter by Karna (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:28AM
  • Re:Virtuous reality by itp (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:30AM
  • Re:Huh? by Kintanon (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:32AM
  • Example by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:33AM
  • The problem of bullies by Dark Paladin (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:35AM
  • by Jinker (133372) on Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:35AM (#1037982) Homepage
    Just reading through the previous comments, I get the feeling that many are red herrings.

    A "virtual war" in Ignatieff's work, is a fiction, invented by the American armed forces. It is not some Web based DDOS attack, or anything to do with the 'net. He is talking about how the armed forces want to portray themselves as powerful, and inflicting massive damages, without actually putting themselves at risk. Arguably, minimizing their involvement.

    Once the smart bombs have blown up the wooden shacks and accidentally destroyed the embassies, and the 'bad guys' leave, the real work begins, with soldiers on the ground. *These* are the ones risking their lives.

    IMO, it is not the one who inflicts the most physical damage who is making the greatest contribution, but the one who is willing to make the greatest sacrifice, take the greatest risk for the cause. I have infinitely more respect for infintry cum peace keepers than jet jockies and button pushers on warships. They seem to only die in accidents these days, not in fighting.

    The guys in blue helmets, who deliver food, who go door to door looking for weapons stashes, and try to defuse disagreements on the street corner before they get messy are the ones who should be proud.

    Killing a lot of people or destroying a lot of hardware is EASY. Any kook with a big enough bomb can do that. Terrorism is much more efficient at that than a military strike. What's hard is actually PURSUING THE GOAL of peace.

    At some point, the bombing has to stop in any war, and when it does, what you do next is much more meaningful to determine how things work out in the end.

    Military force *IS* a useful, and necessary, last resort. But it should *NOT* be considered a goal or ideal. It should NOT be the chosen path, just because it's easier to justify the deaths of a bunch of people who'll never get on TV than a few GI's on the ground.

    I'm from Canada. Can you tell?

    Greg

  • What's your solution, Katz? by rsquirrel (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:36AM
  • Has Anime taught us nothing? by Deeter (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:36AM
  • Old Star Trek episode by BoLean (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:37AM
  • Interesting Timing by Necromncr (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:41AM
  • Propaganda by Kaa (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:41AM
  • Re:As an American ... by GRAMMERSoft (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:41AM
  • eek by Ih8sG8s (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:41AM
  • Yes - Bring back dueling! by The Queen (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:46AM
  • Three Points: by Golias (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:46AM
  • Re:Huh? by GRAMMERSoft (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:47AM
  • by Kaa (21510) on Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:47AM (#1037993) Homepage
    We fight wars with guns in the real world. We fight wars with scripts, computers, and bandwidth online.

    You know, duckie, there is a difference. In one kind of war you die. Really, actually, physically die. In the other kind of war you curse for a while and then reach for the backup tape. I think that's a noticeable difference, no?

    Kaa
  • Re:Huh? by mattnash (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:50AM
  • Re:Huh? by Kaa (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:51AM
  • Episode :A Taste of Armageddon by BoLean (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:52AM
  • Re:Virtuous reality by Signal 11 (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:53AM
  • Re:Huh? by mrBoB (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:54AM
  • Re:As an American ... by TomV (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:54AM
  • Re:Virtuous reality by Signal 11 (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:55AM
  • Re:The problem of bullies by Alexey Goldin (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:56AM
  • Re:eek by Signal 11 (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:57AM
  • Re:What's Really Important Here by Melanque (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:58AM
  • Virual Conflicts (Score:5)

    by Noryungi (70322) on Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:59AM (#1038004) Homepage Journal
    A "virtual conflict" or a "virtual war" simply does not exist: it's a contradiction in terms.

    The main reason the wars in Kosovo, Iraq and Vietnam were fought and "won" against different "enemies" has more to do with public perception and national interest than with questions of human rights.

    Remember, as well, that there are only three types of strategies: occidental, chinese and "japanese".

    Here are just a couple of examples of what I mean:

    • World War I: conflict between major powers (UK/USA/France vs Germany), trying to assert once and for all who was the dominant continental european power ( = national interest). Nationalism was the dominant public perception and obscured all pretense of rational discourse. Please note that the fact that democratic rights and freedom of speech was totally inconsequential in the conflict. Germany, though not a democracy at the time the war erupted, had better social protection than UKUSA+France.
    • World War II: again, classical/occidental strategy conflict between Continental European powers. The USA only intervened after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Let's not forget that the UK were litterally the last european bulwark against the nazis for a couple of years. Again, a classical case of self-interest. If Japan had signed a peace treaty with the USA over the occupation of China (which was the problem at the time), most of Europe would be under Nazi rule today. See Philip K. Dick and other sci-fi books for examples of this... That does not mean the intervention of the USA was a bad thing (far from it). It's just that America's reasons for entering the war were, from the start, pure self-interest. The fact that Nazis were such butchers really helped get the public perception in line with the military objectives. Once the war was won, history being written by the victors, the goals of the wars were presented in a much more
    • Korea/Vietnam: classical sword-swinging/geopolitical game between the USA and USSR/China. USA applied the "domino theory" (japanese strategy) and determined that communist containment was in its best self-interest. Vietnam was seen as a test against communism. Unfortunately, the USA military severely underestimated the Vietnamese resilience and will to fight, as well as the civilian support, in America itself, for a conflict in South-East Asia. The human rights and right to self determination of the Vietnamese people were conveniently ignored. Korea, though a successful containment, became a dictature for several decades (which was also the case for South Vietnam). Some may argue that South Korea became a modern nation during that time, but, again, that was probably in the best interest of the USA. A prosperous South Korea was less likely to throw itself in the arms of communists.
    • Don't even get me started on Iraq. I'll have just one word for you: OIL. 'Nuff said.


    So... As far as I am concerned, there are no "good" or "bad" wars. All wars are just determined by national self-interest, which then influences public perception of the war.

    Kosovo (and the rest of the Balkans) are a complete mess because public perception and self interest were out of whack. The sad thing is that most industrial and military powers in the world today could not care less if the Serbs massacred all Kosovars (and butcher they did). Half-hearted attempts were made to find a diplomatic solution. Then, a half-hearted attempt was made at stopping the bloodshed. When in doubt, bomb 'em back to the Stone Age! Predictable result: the serb civilians rallied around the flag and supported the murderous tactics of their government.

    Why are the Balkans still a mess? Because occidental powers have no national interest in solving the long-term problems in the region. Watch the situation in Montenegro: this is probably going to be the next Croatia or Kosovo. All of this because national interest is the dominant force behind the wars men wage.

    Clemenceau was right when he said: "war is waged by nice people who kill each other without even knowing their names, all of this to the benefit of perfect b______s, who know each other very well, but will never kill each other"...
  • Re:Huh? by Harri (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:00AM
  • Re:Huh? by Bad Mojo (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:00AM
  • And our next president is... by spiralx (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:03AM
  • by skwang (174902) on Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:03AM (#1038008)

    Whoa, the War in the Gulf was directly about fringe groups? I think it was about two things:

    1. Oil
    2. Regional Stability

    1. We (United States) may not get our Oil supply from Kuwait, and while you are correct that Iraq supplied more Oil to the US before the war began, the threat of Iraq was not against Kuwait but against Saudi Arabia, which supplies the largest percent of Oil to the US (check out http://www.energy.ca.go v/database/multisector/usoilimp.html [ca.gov]). While Iraw did not invade Saudi Arabia the problem is that Amiercan Foreign policy is all about...

    2. Regional Stability. As long as the US maintains hegomony (sp?) it will want to preserve its "Spheres of Influence" on parts of the world. In the middle east, the US has definite interests in keeping the Oil trade open, with US control over the region.

    (asise)Take Saudi Arabia, look at its Human rights record. Here is a country with a emmensly rich royal family that controls the government 100%, a country were corperal punishment is still on the books, a country were NO ONE has the right to vote (according to the CIA), but the US sends millions of dollars to, sells modern military weapons, and even looks the other way on human rights! But since they supply so much Oil, we let them get away with it.

    So why did we get involved with in the Gulf? Lets take a view point from a Foreign policy/politician standpoint:

    1. Iraq invaded Kuwait, CIA reports that they may be building chemical and biological weapons (true)
    2. Iraq's leader frequency refers to the United States as an enemy, conlusion: he is not a friend (very true)
    3. Iraq threatens Isreal (verbally); an ally of the US, and asks other Arab nations to join (Jordan)

    So what do US planners think?

    1. They think Iraq may threaten Isreal, an ally
    2. They think Iraq may threaten Saudi Arabia, a major trade partner
    3. They think Iraq may be building Weapons of Mass Destruction (WoMD)
    4. Iraq is definatly threatening regional stability!
    5. Conclusion: Iraq must be stopped

    So the Bush administration turnes to the military. The resulting war is fought with weapons that (as you said correctly) were not as preceice as the Amiercan public was lead to believe. And ironically in the end, although Saddam Hussain is still in power, US planer probably achieved their goals:

    1. Iraq is no longer threatening Saudi Arabia or Isreal
    2. Iraq is no longer buildings WoMD (well, at least as of recent, UN inspectors were doing their best to shut down production facilities, but now...)

    For all Intents and Purposes these goals were achieved for about 10 years. The region is stable (for now).

    So what is the cost of regional stability? about a couple hundred American casulaties (and others from the coalition nations), and the popluation of Iraq which must suffer under a trade embargo and die of starvation, disease, and persecution.

    And what about the oil? Go to a gas station and find out.

    God bless America.

  • Re:Cowardice by Triv (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:05AM
  • Blood sacrifice by Kaa (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:07AM
  • Ambiguous Goals, Ambiguous Outcome by Phaid (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:07AM
  • The Kosovo conflict was not a war, by yankeehack (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:11AM
  • Re:Virtuous reality by Mr. Slippery (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:11AM
  • Misconception...kill kill kill by BoLean (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:11AM
  • What's the agenda here? Why is the United States spending so much time and effort bombing people with alleged "precision" munitions (munitions which, in the Gulf War at least, were later shown to have only a 40% hit rate--a far cry from the perception that every bomb hit every target). We need to ask ourselves what the government is doing with all of this money, and who the next target of those weapons will be.

    The United States government has shown, in recent years, a great intolerance for certain "fringe" groups. These munitions, once honed to perfection (after being tested on foreign soil in conflicts that are generated out of thin air), may be used in the future to silence groups that dare to speak out against the government.

    Oh, please. The government is developing smart standoff munitions... to silence internal dissidents? Are you serious? Don't you think that any government that was really interested in cracking down on internal dissent would spend more money on lightweight, concealable small arms and body armor for secret police than for bombs that demolish a city block?

    Beyond that, I find the whole premise of the book that Katz reviews to be questionable. (Disclaimer: I have not read the book, so I'm relying on Katz's description of its argument.) The "smart weapons" that Ignatieff deplores did not cause the risk-averse culture that he describes. Vietnam created that culture. We have a generation of leaders for whom war is synonymous with messy, low-intensity light infantry conflicts that drag out for years. So those leaders spend money on anything that promises to make those kinds of conflicts obsolete -- laser guided bombs, cruise missiles, robot aircraft, and the rest. They then employ these weapons instead of infantry, in places where infantry would probably be a more war-winning weapon, solely because they are terrified of repeating the Vietnam debacle. Result: conflicts that go half-won because we have ruled out the use of the most effective tool.

    So, what's my beef with Ignatieff? By blaming this pattern on the weapons that we've created, he lifts the responsibility from the place it truly belongs -- the leaders. They make the decision to enter into "limited" wars, or to pull out when the first casualties come home. If they didn't have smart weapons, they'd use B-52s loaded with dumb iron bombs, or artillery sited miles away, or anything else except infantry. It's not the smart weapons that are causing this; you can lay that at the feet of our military and political leaders. The smart weapons are just a convenient tool. (Remember, the term "surgical strike" comes from Vietnam, when no smart weapons were in wide deployment.)

    We too often fall into the trap of thinking that our whiz-bang technology is the cause a way of thinking. Technology is an expression of human values in steel or silicon. If those values are out of whack, remember that the fault lies with the toolmaker, not with the tool.


    -- Jason A. Lefkowitz

  • Re:The problem of bullies by Melanque (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:12AM
  • Re:Virtuous reality by Kaa (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:14AM
  • The Art of War by iyii (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:14AM
  • Re:Huh? by carlos_benj (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:15AM
  • Re:What's Really Important Here by reg_nad_kcin (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:16AM
  • Re:Propaganda by xeno-cat (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:16AM
  • Re:spelling by angelo (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:19AM
  • Re:Cowardice by oiuyt (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:19AM
  • How to Measure Winning a war ? by vvk (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:21AM
  • Re:Yugoslav Sojourn: Notes from the Other Side by JohnnyCannuk (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:27AM
  • Re:Huh? by jheinen (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:32AM
  • Re:Huh? by sconeu (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:33AM
  • Re:Huh? by Mr. Slippery (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:34AM
  • Re:Huh? by 0xdeadbeef (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:36AM
  • Is it moral to kill when we won't take sacrifices? by pmancini (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:38AM
  • Re:Three Points: by Xofer D (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:39AM
  • Re:As an American ... by Stopper (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:40AM
  • Re:The problem of bullies by J05H (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:40AM
  • Re:Propaganda by Kaa (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:42AM
  • Re:Cowardice by Kintanon (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:45AM
  • Re:The problem of bullies by Dark Paladin (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:47AM
  • Millitary Maxim by Rand Race (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:53AM
  • Re:Huh? by Kaa (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:54AM
  • Re:Huh? by Obasan (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:54AM
  • The Great Danger by Phrogman (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @05:56AM
  • Re:As an Canadian ... by JohnnyCannuk (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:03AM
  • what kind of authority? by .c (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:11AM
  • Re:Three Points: by Golias (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:12AM
  • Re:What's Really Important Here by bukvich (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:13AM
  • Just being pedantic... by Pentagram (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:14AM
  • read this book by nomadlogic (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:15AM
  • another good book by Alex Reynolds (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:19AM
  • Re:Cowardice by avarela (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:23AM
  • civilians v soldiers by Pentagram (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:23AM
  • Re:As an Englishman ... by spiralx (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:26AM
  • Re:Yugoslav Sojourn: Notes from the Other Side by JohnnyCannuk (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:27AM
  • Re:As an American ... by Golias (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:28AM
  • Sloppy Logic by FatherDog (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:35AM
  • War Lightly? by Fringe (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:36AM
  • I was a rifle company XO in the 3-14 INF, 10th Mountain Division, and was deployed in the Lower Jubba Valley of Somalia from December of '91 to late March of '92.

    I can't hope to compete intellectually with those of you who have seen all the Star Trek episodes, ready all the political science books, and figured it all out. However, I can offer a few observations based on my experience.

    1) Anyone who tells you, based on watching television and reading the newspaper, that they really know what's going on in a war zone is totally full of shit. Usually the people on the ground don't even know exactly what's going on.

    2) If you carry that analogy to the air, do you think the guys in their fast-movers really know what they're dropping their bombs on, or whether they were successful? After the USAF claimed to have knocked out scores of Scud launchers (in the desert, perhaps the most benign environment possible for air warfare), the GAO did a review and determined that in actuality, they had knocked out ZERO Scuds on the ground.

    3) In order to prevail over the long haul in any kind of sustained military or military/humanitarian mission, you need to commit to a sustained presence on the ground. So-called precision warfare from the air can be quite helpful (note that the North Vietnamese returned to the discussion table after the US unleashed the B-52s), but it is part of a mix of capabilities necessary to achieve the long-term POLITICAL goals of the operation.

    4) As a guy named Clausewitz has mentioned before, war is an extension of politics. Politics and economics are in most cases joined at the hip, not because economics is an evil that infects politics, but because economics is an essential component of human existence. We all want, but there is only a finite supply.

    5) If the political will isn't there, it ain't gonna happen. To those of you who were around during the Vietnam era, this will sound familiar, but we really were making good progress in Somalia. The failed Mogadishu raid was in military terms, a great success. A difficult, extremely grueling mission where men lost their lives, but in persuit of a difficult goal, it was a big success. People back home saw the bodies being carried through the streets, and decided it was not worth losing American lives to save Somalis from themselves. Note that there were stupendously stupid battles during WWII, with casualties well over 50%. Had any of these battles occurred today, those in charge would be sacked, condemned, and punished. It's economics - saving Europe was important then. Saving Europe is kind of important now, but most Americans would just rather let the Europeans figure out how to do it themselves.
  • Re:Cowardice by Golias (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:38AM
  • Re:Virtual War by hardburlyboogerman (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:39AM
  • Re:Propaganda by jslag (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:41AM
  • Re:What's Really Important Here by Golias (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:42AM
  • Sorry, Katz, this is not new by Reality Master 101 (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:43AM
  • Re:Huh? by shilly (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:45AM
  • Re:Propaganda by Kaa (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:47AM
  • Re:Kosovo Albanians by Ian-K (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:48AM
  • Re:spelling by shilly (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:49AM
  • Re:Virual Conflicts by shren (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:54AM
  • Re:What's Really Important Here by Golias (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @07:02AM
  • Re:The problem of bullies by Golias (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @07:18AM
  • Or not... by Shin Elendale (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @07:26AM
  • Good v. Bad wars and national self-interest by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @07:33AM
  • Re:Three Points: by Golias (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @07:33AM
  • How far have we yet to go? by gi11o (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @07:35AM
  • Re:Thoughts from a Somalia veteran by Infonaut (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @07:43AM
  • Re:The problem of bullies by zk (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @07:47AM
  • I can see it now... by SvnLyrBrto (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @07:52AM
  • Huh? We should be glad by briancarnell (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @07:56AM
  • Virtual war, an adaptive process... by Mr.Mean (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:06AM
  • Re:The problem of bullies by Alexey Goldin (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:18AM
  • Re:Virtuous reality by Cedric C. Girouard (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:18AM
  • *HOW* one attacks is not as important as *why* by Whoozit (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:19AM
  • Re:Huh? by Grab (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:24AM
  • Fahrenheit 451 by Darkseer (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:28AM
  • Neat take.. by JonKatz (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:28AM
  • Re:How to Measure Winning a war ? by vvk (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:29AM
  • Re:War Correspondent by BenByer (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:30AM
  • World War II (Score:3)

    by Xenu (21845) on Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:42AM (#1038085)
    Part of the reason that the USA was reluctant to enter World War II as a combatant was the public awareness of how the British and others had used lies and propoganda to generate political and military support in World War I. Many of the lies and fabrications were publically exposed in the 1920s, leading to mistrust of European politicians. To many Americans, Europeans killing other Europeans was a European problem.
  • Re:Virual Conflicts by muldrake (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:47AM
  • Virtual, schmirtual by raresilk (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:48AM
  • Re:Yugoslav Sojourn: Notes from the Other Side by its (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:53AM
  • Re:Canadians telling USA what wars to get into by Golias (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:55AM
  • Re:Unpopular truths by Golias (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:59AM
  • Re:The Great Danger by DuBois (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:59AM
  • Re:Yes - Bring back dueling! by alumshubby (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @09:05AM
  • Re:Propaganda by speek (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @09:15AM
  • kids + guns = 20th century wars by peter303 (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @09:24AM
  • Re:The problem of bullies by zmaj (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @09:27AM
  • Re:Is it moral to kill when we won't take sacrific by zmaj (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @09:52AM
  • Re:Virtuous reality by sredding (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @09:59AM
  • Re:As a Bosnian by sredding (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @10:07AM
  • by Life Blood (100124) on Tuesday May 30 2000, @10:10AM (#1038099) Homepage

    While you are right about war being a matter of national interest, your analyses seem somewhat flawed.

    WWI: Started because Austro-Hungary was internally unstable. Germany gets blamed for the war today partly because they were the best killers in WWI, but mostly because of WWII. The Treaty of Versailles broke up Austro-Hungary badly and unfairly penalized Germany when all they did was kill better than everyone else.

    WWII: Aptly named because it was caused by the god-awful Treaty of Versailles. USA entered the war in Europe because Britian was a customer and because the Nazis would have won if they hadn't. Infact the worst butchers of the war were not the Nazis (since they only really butchered their own people) but were the Japanese. However they were basically butchering undeveloped nations so they don't get as much publicity.

    Korea/Vietnam: Containment. The US backs losers because they want to halt the spread of communism. The US backed a lot of idiots because they opposed communists, see Cuba and most of Central America.

    Gulf War: The US and others intervene to halt Iraq because it jeopardized the stability of the entire middle east. One country controlling a significant portion of the worlds oil is bad. The war is actually won by the ground forces, but the air force gets all the credit.

    Why are the Balkans still a mess? Because its not an important region in terms of resources and getting peace there is damn near impossible anyway. Its not economically or even philosophically worth trying.

    Your post makes it sounds like the US/NATO/UN can just walk in and create peace if they wanted it. This is not the case. The different ethnicities have been at war for nearly 500 years and the only real way to bring lasting peace is to let someone win. It is not really possible for an external power to just walk in and set up a lasting government. See UN/US involvement in Somalia for an example of that.

    Anyway right premise, national interest, bad analysis in many cases.

  • Re:Virual Conflicts by severian (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @10:12AM
  • Re:Huh? by Kintanon (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @10:17AM
  • Re:Three Points: by weinerdog (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @10:23AM
  • Re:As an American ... by dj.dule (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @10:36AM
  • Re:Thoughts from a Somalia veteran by ctaylor (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @11:03AM
  • Re:Three Points: by Dr Caleb (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @11:05AM
  • We need to think. by digitalmind (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @11:06AM
  • Re:Just being pedantic... by Chiasmus_ (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @11:15AM
  • Think of it this way: by Rimbo (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @11:35AM
  • More books like this needed by ModelX (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @11:46AM
  • I don't see the problem with this by croot (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @11:52AM
  • Re:Three Points: by Golias (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @12:01PM
  • Duh... by Viper23 (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @12:50PM
  • Anti-American Nonsense! by neopenguin (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @01:02PM
  • Re:What's Really Important Here by StromThurmond (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @01:04PM
  • Re:As an American ... by w3woody (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @01:06PM
  • Re:Huh? by Wah (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @01:12PM
  • Abraham Lincoln on "Polk's [Mexican] War" by Randym (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @01:13PM
  • Re:Virual Conflicts by w3woody (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @01:21PM
  • Re:The problem of bullies by neopenguin (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @01:25PM
  • Re:Virtuous reality by cpt kangarooski (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @01:31PM
  • Re:Virual Conflicts by duffbeer703 (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @01:47PM
  • A new Hitler? by Randym (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @01:48PM
  • Re:What's Really Important Here by mOdQuArK! (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @01:50PM
  • kids + guns != 20th century wars by feck (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @02:22PM
  • gulf war is a bad example by Sun Tsu (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @03:28PM
  • Re:Blood sacrifice by alias::tom (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @03:35PM
  • Re:I don't see the problem with this by Sun Tsu (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @03:37PM
  • Oh yes and a bow and arrow are very hard to use by MajorBlunder (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @03:44PM
  • Re:kids + guns = 20th century wars by Sun Tsu (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @03:51PM
  • Why were we lied to over the Rambouillet Treaty? by alias::tom (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:00PM
  • Virtual war by daemonenwind (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:37PM
  • Re:What's Really Important Here by thogard (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @04:59PM
  • by mac586 (80404) on Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:01PM (#1038133)
    Virtual war my ass.

    Do you think computers are making decisions? Do you think humans are sitting there, passively, disengaged from the reality of war?

    I spent most of ALLIED FORCE at Aviano AFB, which was the tip of the spear for the NATO Air Forces. I traveled throughout Italy, wiring people to information, and wiring information to the clock.

    Members of my team traveled into the mud of Albania, served on US Navy ships at sea, and flew combat missions on Command and Control aircraft. (We used Linux, Open Source Tools, and duct tape extensively and successfully, but that is another story).

    It was my job to ensure that US Pilots flew their missions with the best intelligence available. We looked for every possible edge to make sure that the pilots and their crews would come home when the campaign was over.

    The pilots that fly these missions do not have a free ride. They get shot at with missiles and anti-aircraft batteries, and many do see what they are hitting with the video feeds wired in the tip of their missiles.

    They are prepared with reports, photographs, video, and 3D simulations for the mission at hand.

    If you recall, some of these men were shot down and rescued. Special Forces engaged in fierce fire fights in order to bring the pilots home. These rescue teams flew at night, over the tree tops, and into enemy fire. This was not virtual, it was a life and death mission under extreme conditions.

    Remember the men lost training to fly the Apaches in the mountainous terrain? It is amazing that the search and rescue teamscame home, let alone the downed pilots.

    With technology, you can watch genocide in action.

    Car loads of Serbian soldiers would drive into a village, and begin burning down the homes of innocent civilians. They would execute entire families as they fled their burning homes.

    On one occasion, the Serbs were reinforced by helicopters and more troops. Predator, a surveillance drone, flew overhead, sending a live video feed back to commanders on the ground who then directed pilots forward to thwart the attack.

    I watched dozens die on one such broadcast from Predator while anxiously awaiting a fighter with fuel to arrive on target.

    Minutes became hours.

    Seconds after the last Serb mercenary climbed aboard, and the rotor began to spin, the helicopter was destroyed by a missile.

    Justice was served. Should we judge this particular laser guided munition to be immoral? I think not.

    NATO didn t save any lives in this town, but the next village down the road sure did appreciate the effort.

    The Serbian attack on Kosovar civilians was well planned. It was systematic. Go back and read the articles from CNN, jot down the name of the towns, and plot them on a map.

    The first day of the war, all of the major towns on major arteries leading out of Kosovo were attacked. The next day, all of the secondary roads, and the smaller towns were torched. The third day, we watched refugees leaving on trains, the last major transportation artery in Kosovo. These towns, once annotated on a map, gave the appearance of the hours on the face of a clock. Systematic. Brutal. The Serbs wore ski masks to hide their identities from their neighbors.

    Try researching hours of gun tape video that DOES NOT reach CNN. The sterile bomb damage assessment (BDA) videos of buildings and parked aircraft make the public Pentagon briefings. It appears that author Michael Ignatieff just researched theseprime time videos, not the actual BDA used by the warriors engaged in making a peace in the Balkans.

    You get to see the men standing there in shirt sleeves, smoking, and then looking up right before impact. The picture is too fuzzy to make out their faces.

    Pilots did not see death so clearly from 15000 feet in WWII, or in Vietnam.

    I was there at the debriefing of the pilot involved in the convoy bombing.

    The Serbs were using civilians as human shields, in addition to using civilian vehicles to move from town to town to commit atrocities and loot. I saw the anguish sweep over this pilot, and his General, as they spent hours listening to tapes and watching video, recreating the strike.

    I flew home after the first 3 weeks of this virtual war and got just as drunk flying back 5 days later as I did coming home.

    For the war fighter and their commanders, it is truly vivid, and real time, even through the lens of a video camera during an air campaign. Thank God we did not see casualties from a ground campaign. Enough said.

    Going to war with advanced weapons and vehicle platforms is not immoral. This is a gross simplification of a complex reality.

    A simplification designed to sell a book first, and to offer a weak philosophical discussion second. The aforementioned Star Trek episode sounds more intriguing.

  • Re:A new Hitler? Again? And Again? by ironheart (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:09PM
  • Re:As an American ... by daala (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:43PM
  • Re:Cowardice by roundclock (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:45PM
  • Re:Cowardice by roundclock (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @06:53PM
  • Re:A new Yankee Doodle Hitler? by daala (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @07:01PM
  • Re:Yes - Bring back dueling! (OT) by kjeldar (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:29PM
  • Re:Huh? by kjeldar (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:34PM
  • Re:Three Points: by kjeldar (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:39PM
  • Why Clinton Is A Scum by Poligraf (Score:2) Tuesday May 30 2000, @08:40PM
  • Re:Lives are all that Matter by cgadd (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @09:19PM
  • Katz slaps the face of Gulf War Veterans? by cgadd (Score:1) Tuesday May 30 2000, @09:35PM
  • The real deal by I-Ball (Score:1) Wednesday May 31 2000, @12:29AM
  • Re:What's Really Important Here by rjyanco (Score:2) Wednesday May 31 2000, @12:33AM
  • Re:As an American ... by Mr_Ceebs (Score:1) Wednesday May 31 2000, @12:39AM
  • Re:Cowardice by Mr_Ceebs (Score:1) Wednesday May 31 2000, @01:13AM
  • Re:Yugoslav Sojourn: Notes from the Other Side by bamuang (Score:1) Wednesday May 31 2000, @02:00AM
  • Re:Moral War? by Mr_Ceebs (Score:1) Wednesday May 31 2000, @02:04AM
  • Are you so sure that a "Computer War" can't kill ? by Salgak1 (Score:1) Wednesday May 31 2000, @02:42AM
  • Re:As an American ... by Yakata Nasakoto (Score:1) Wednesday May 31 2000, @03:03AM
  • Moderate that Coward UP!!! by undrew (Score:1) Wednesday May 31 2000, @03:18AM
  • In two words... by Sri Lumpa (Score:1) Wednesday May 31 2000, @03:21AM
  • Re:Yugoslav Sojourn: Notes from the Other Side by JohnnyCannuk (Score:2) Wednesday May 31 2000, @03:54AM
  • Re:War Lightly? by Bad Mojo (Score:2) Wednesday May 31 2000, @03:59AM
  • Re:Huh? by Bad Mojo (Score:2) Wednesday May 31 2000, @04:01AM
  • Re:Huh? by Bad Mojo (Score:2) Wednesday May 31 2000, @04:04AM
  • Virtual war vs. bloody war by bebot (Score:1) Wednesday May 31 2000, @04:11AM
  • Re:The purpose of my post... by Golias (Score:1) Wednesday May 31 2000, @04:39AM
  • Re:Virual Conflicts by Life Blood (Score:1) Wednesday May 31 2000, @05:29AM
  • Star Trek Had It Right by pulski (Score:1) Wednesday May 31 2000, @08:13AM
  • Re:virtual refugees by AOCrowley (Score:1) Wednesday May 31 2000, @12:21PM
  • Napoleonic weaponry by CaptainAvatar (Score:1) Wednesday May 31 2000, @03:42PM
  • Re:Good v. Bad wars and national self-interest by CaptainAvatar (Score:1) Wednesday May 31 2000, @03:48PM
  • Re:Just being pedantic... by Pentagram (Score:1) Thursday June 01 2000, @01:06AM
  • Remember the Second Amendment by cburley (Score:2) Thursday June 01 2000, @08:41AM
  • Re:Propaganda by xeno-cat (Score:1) Thursday June 01 2000, @09:00AM
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