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Rasterman leaves RedHat

Posted by Hemos on Mon May 31, 1999 02:12 PM
from the bye-bye-american-fly dept.
poohbear_honeypot wrote in with the full text of Raster's letter to the mailing list, which is below. Essentially, Raster has left Red Hat for greener pastures, and (surprise, surprise) is headed West. He asks that people hold off on e-mailing for the next week or so. For the gory details, click below.
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"From Rasterman on the Enlightenment Mailing List:

Well I thought I'd send this mail out now...

The short and curly:

As of friday the 28th of May I no longer work at Red Hat Software. The story is along ad will be explained sometime later - it's been brewing for months though.

I am now officially unemployed.

I am as happy as chickens in a seed farm.

As of tomorrow , June 1, 1999 I will be leaving North Carolina and moving west. I currently have no other employers.

This is all good for E and E development.

I am so glad to get out of ths creativity-stifling environemnt of RHAD LABS - away from certain people there who see E and its userbase as what I can literally quote them saying a "festering crowd".

I've tolerated this attitude towards E users for way too long. I do not envisage much future support from Red Hat for Enlightenment - they have been itching to get rid of E and will as soon as they can. I don't much care. They can do whatever they like - and I wish them all the best but I do not fit in there. E does not fit in there. They want a windows clone distribution and OS. I do not. They don't believe users really count - corporates and "partners" count and what they percieve as the "business world that wants an exact windows clone" counts.

I am not advocating changing distribtuions, but I am saying that this is onyl good for E - I will be freed up to concentrate on it and associated projects (that includes working on X and extensions to X). This also means i will be able to develop E free of GNOME. E is NOT GNOME's Window Manager - GNOME does not have one. Infact E will be workign to becoming its own desktop shell (I separate Desktop and Desktop Shell here for a reason) in its own right as time moves on - but unlike GNOME I won't make a vaporware publicity stunt out of it until there's something concrete there. E is getting on and a lot of important backend code is in place. After a few more necessary features it will start to grow into a desktop shell (a desktop shell is what I term the combination of Filemanager, Window manager and a Panel app launcher and an "applet/dock" holder). This means E is independant of whatvere desktop apps you use - you can use KDE apps, GNOME apps, GTK apps, X apps, Motif apps, CDE apps - whatever apps you like - but your desktop shell will be consistent and configurable to exactly how you want it. You alreayd knwo E's memory footprint is pretty small - especialyl compared to those of gnome and KDE (when you add the memory use of all the applets, panels, programs, wm etc. of each they add up to much much much more than E). E can absorb much of the functionality of these with very little overhead since it's already got the backend code there in E. Once the desktop shell for E is compleyte, debugged, optimised and so on E will hit 1.0 - but I'mnto setting a time limit on this - this happens when it's done and not before.

If you want to help: sit tight and stick to E - send good feedback and bug reports - We DO listen to them. Send patches to E if you want features. When the new dock applet apiu is done you can all scrutty off and write 5000 loadmeters, cd pplayers etc for E's new dock applet api (yes non square 64x64 dock apps - any size, anywhere (in the dragbar, in small windows, on the desktop istelf). all "dock applets" for E will follow the theme of the WM. This has yet to be worked on but will be - as well as adding in the iconbox again (that comes first).

Expect E to go far.

For the next week I'll be driving across the USA so dont' expect much response from me - after that I'll be moving into a new home, but therafter expect things to move along again.

I do hope we are doing things right by the majority of e users out there. You are my priority - not commerical interests, not political games, not a windows clone, not GNOME, not KDE - users come first. Those that help wiht the project get their wishes often done sooner than others becuase there aren't many working on E.

Here's to a bright future for Enlightenemnt and for all who use it.

-- --------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------------
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) raster@rasterman.com Raster's Page raster@linux.com "

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  • that's not true at all.
    In fact, I work on enlightenment at VA.

    --
    Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
    Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)
  • Re:business culture by Zygo (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @11:20AM
  • by scrytch (9198) <chuck@myrealbox.com> on Monday May 31 1999, @10:13AM (#1873307)
    Anyhow, E's look is nice and all, but gnome's outright refusal to adopt a window manager has annoyed me to no end. I change gtk, I have to change gnome separately. Gtk and gnome never look quite like they match up, and of course there's a whole new drawing layer on it.

    As for Kwm (Raster does talk about E in KDE after all), it uses Qt as its toolkit. Same idea as mwm using motif. The window menus and root menus and such, they're KDE menu objects (derived from Qt). No wheels reinvented here.

    In the gnome app list, I see a gtkwm that aspires to do the same, but it appears to be forever vaporware. Could some enterprising soul who knows window managers perhaps take up this project? It's ridiculous to have a window manager represent a code fork from a desktop environment.

    As for reply links ... I simply have no link to reply to this article, and the moderator dropdowns show up inlined. kfm seems to be awful funny with forms... So anyhow I'll piggyback my reply to someone famous, hopefully it won't be moderated down :)
  • Re:Red Hat's clone goal by w00p (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:01AM
  • Re:Humble KDE by miguel (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @01:51PM
  • Re:Choking down one's ego by Phil Gregory (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @07:38AM
  • Re:On the other hand... by scrytch (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @04:58PM
  • Re:another RHAD employee by Chris Siegler (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:23AM
  • Go Raster! by Graymalkin (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:03PM
  • by ywwg (20925) on Monday May 31 1999, @09:38AM (#1873317) Homepage
    For all those who were worried about Red Hat becoming the next Microsoft, their fears seem to be at least partly justified. If their goal is to create an "exact windows clone," and they consider businesses better friends than users, it suddenly becomes clear why fvwm95 is their default WM even though it sucks.

    My only hope is they don't force standards on us. For all those who say that isn't going to happen, just look at RPMs. Who distributes using DEBs?

    Maybe Corel will get it right?
  • Re:Clue Time! by Bubba (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @05:15AM
  • Re:Hate to disagree with God, but.. by pez (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @01:52PM
  • Re:Hate to disagree with God, but.. by stevew (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @06:54AM
  • Re:Best of luck to you Carsten! by Mindjiver (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:41PM
  • Re:XML Configuration Files by dOxxx (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:30PM
  • Bash Qt bindings by Roberto (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @06:40PM
  • Re:business culture by Scola (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @06:28PM
  • Re:a good thing? by Lennie (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:47AM
  • by Morgaine (4316) on Monday May 31 1999, @02:11PM (#1873331)
    Window managers are such a subjective thing that it would be very poor strategy for RedHat to supply future distributions with just a single window manager configured on installation.

    Obviously there has to be a default, but all the other major window managers should be just one simple menu selection away.

    The very least that should be provided are E, WM, fvwm*, icewm, twm and olvwm, and another half dozen or so would be most welcome.

    People have hugely varying tastes and functional requirements, and the ability to choose window managers is one huge advantage that we have over Windows --- RedHat should make the most of that possibility.
  • Re:heh by Jburkholder (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @05:16PM
  • Re:Bull by miguel (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @03:36PM
  • Re:business culture by Wansu (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @02:42AM
  • Re:Humble KDE by miguel (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @03:43PM
  • Re:It was deleted by miguel (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @02:12PM
  • Re:Now who owns E? (Score:4)

    by Mandrake (3939) <mandrake@mandrake.net> on Monday May 31 1999, @11:29AM (#1873337) Homepage Journal
    actually it's not GPL anymore, it's the X license.
    which is actually a lot freer than GPL.
    and you'll find a lot more people than raster's name in the copyright.
    eesh -ewait "copyright"
    --
    Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
    Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)
  • replying to my own post by ciphersnow (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @02:10PM
  • Re:Humble KDE (Score:4)

    by Roberto (1777) on Monday May 31 1999, @11:18AM (#1873341) Homepage
    If I had achieved 10% of what Matthias has, I would be 10 times more
    annoying than he is (hey, I may already be ;-).

    Besides, you are totally missing the point of what you replied to:

    Matthias is just a developer. He is an extraordinary developer. Hell, he
    writes perhaps the prettiest code I've ever seen, but he is not the
    equivalent of Linus/RMS/Miguel/whatever in one important aspect: he is not
    "the boss".

    You see, he is not humble about his code. He doesn't need to, his code is
    good. He is humble about just being a coder, which is (IMHO) a lot more
    important.

    BTW: what he says of KWord and Abiword is actually true.
  • Re:Hoax by dangermouse (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:23AM
  • Odd news. (Score:5)

    by Bowie J. Poag (16898) on Monday May 31 1999, @01:52PM (#1873343) Homepage
    Well, this is kind of strange.. Its never good to hear this kind of stuff happen in the family. He alluded to the fact that this sort of tension had been brewing for several months, which makes me think this isnt exactly a spur of the moment decision for him.

    Whatever his decision is, thats cool. It's Karsten's right to flip the bird to whoever he wants..but not without consequences. You have to admit, there are better ways to leave a company..Certainly more professional (and perhaps more mature) ways, at that.

    Publically referring to your former employer as an entity which doesn't care about its user base, and prefers only "commercial interests, political games, and making a windows clone" won't exactly earn you any friends. Or a good employment reference, for that matter. It makes both Red Hat _and_ him look bad.

    My only fear is that whoever his future employer will be will look past his talent and see him simply as a potential risk to the company's public image. If he decided he didn't like my company, and then turned around and slammed MY company in the press like this, I sure as hell wouldn't hire him either, talent or no talent.

    If you dont like where you are, thats fine. Its cool to move on.. But dont spit in the face of people who gave you a shot in the first place. Its not just unprofessional..its also a bit childish, imho.

    Bowie
    PROPAGANDA
  • Re:Youc could see this coming a mile away ... by Aaron M. Renn (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @02:03PM
  • Clue Time for Moderators by Dictator For Life (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @05:26AM
  • Re:Interesting. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @09:39AM
  • GNOME and its big plus by josepha48 (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @01:28PM
  • Re:The beginning of the end...? (of GNOME?) by John Allsup (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:45PM
  • Re:Packages? by HappyHead (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:56AM
  • Re:business culture by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @01:24PM
  • by Scola (4708) on Monday May 31 1999, @10:57AM (#1873357)
    I've noticed a number of instances where KDE has really had a different culture than GNOME or E, which has led to a different attitude to from the project:

    1. Core KDE developers *never* rip on opposing projects. They attempt to intergrate. I'm sure everyone remembers when KDE anounced Version 1.0 of GNOME promenantly on its webpage.

    2. No publicity stunts. The software's done when it's done. 1.1.1 took forever to get out, but when it was out it worked really well. In fact KDE folks are currently debating whether they should try to pre-release more official stuff in order to generate interest. For example, the koffice daily snapshots won't generate the type of interest a Koffice-0.3 would.

    3. No central cultish leader. Sure it's nice to have what ESR described as the "benevilent dictator", the Linus or the Larry Wall. However, neither Miguel or Rasterman fill this role particularly well. They have the dictator thing down, but not the benevilence. Sometimes, I'd say the FreeBSD/XFree/Apache model of just a bunch of developers works pretty well.

    Just some observations about the way Open Source software works in different cultures.
  • Re:Interesting. by symlink (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @10:13AM
  • Re:It's true: And you got moderated down by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @07:49PM
  • Re:Youc could see this coming a mile away ... by bergie (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @10:02AM
  • Re:No. Read the license by Midnight Coder (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @05:01PM
  • Re:heh by RandomFreq (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @10:09AM
  • Re:Youc could see this coming a mile away ... by ShieldWolf (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @02:53AM
  • Re:I don't see him talking about you on /. by servo8 (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @06:59PM
  • Re:Humble KDE by Roberto (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @02:03PM
  • Re:Best of luck to you Carsten! by RandomFreq (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @09:44AM
  • Themebuilder (was: Re:XML Configuration Files) by INT 21h (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @06:59AM
  • Re:gtkwm, or, where has my reply link gone? by bgarrett (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @11:26AM
  • Re:business culture by Clevo (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @05:26AM
  • Just to say good luck! by MrJones (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:32PM
  • Re:Youc could see this coming a mile away ... by gavinhall (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @09:40AM
  • Re:Ummm, no. by Skeezix (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @05:30AM
  • Re:widget topology? by Roberto (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @06:42PM
  • On the other hand... by Roberto (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @04:39PM
  • Re:That's not really fair, Alan by Scola (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @06:35PM
  • Just what is "Enlightenment" relative to "Gnome"? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:00AM
  • Re:Oh, drat. by CAIMLAS (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @06:36PM
  • Re:WHAT GNOME publicity stunt? by Filgy (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:17AM
  • Re:Didn't you just knock kde-devel for being reado by sopwith (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @05:08PM
  • Re:Airing Dirty Laundry by jamesm (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @02:53AM
  • Re:Humble KDE by Roberto (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @03:50PM
  • Re:Better get used to it... by Alan Cox (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:29AM
  • Re:Missing Points by Alex Zepeda (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @05:12PM
  • Re:Now who owns E? (Score:3)

    by Alan Cox (27532) on Monday May 31 1999, @11:32AM (#1873392) Homepage
    Does it really matter? Red Hat own the parts of the kernel I work on in Red Hat time. It's GPL'd so its kind of irrelevant.

    Alan
  • Re:Better get used to it... by Simon Carr (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @03:36PM
  • Re:Humble KDE by Midnight Coder (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @03:44PM
  • Re:Red Hat comes to their senses. by Brandon S. Allbery (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @03:38PM
  • "more stable" ?
    "lighter" ?
    most people who say these types of things don't know much about enlightenment. it doesn't hog memory unless you tell it to, and it certainly doesn't crash all the time like people tend to assume it does.

    --
    Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
    Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)
  • Re:widget topology? by Roberto (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @07:09PM
  • Use LyX and/or LateX! by Andor (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:38PM
  • Dont be a putz by True Dork (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @07:02PM
  • Re:Humble KDE by BELG (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @02:55PM
  • Re:Interesting. by John Allsup (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:47PM
  • Re:WHAT GNOME publicity stunt? by jirka (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:08AM
  • Re:Good lad. by goon (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @08:10PM
  • Redhat DOES care about the average JOE LINUX USER by Raja_The_TiGeR (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:01AM
  • Re:kde can kick the crap out of gnome by Snow-Man (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @05:21PM
  • The point: by gavinhall (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @02:18PM
  • Re:Humble KDE by Alex Zepeda (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @05:17PM
  • Re:business culture by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @04:06PM
  • Re:Immature OSS coders by poohbear_honeypot (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @03:46PM
  • My thoughts... by j c s (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @02:10PM
  • by Uche (6766) on Monday May 31 1999, @11:32AM (#1873424) Homepage
    GNOME will be next out the door, unless they get the stability issues resolved fast. COL 2.2, SuSE 6.1, Slack 4.0, and Mandrake 6.0 are all using KDE 1.1.1; don't expect to see Red Hat piss away their competitive advantage waiting for GNOME to mature.

    This is arrant flame-bait and not at all necessary. For a long time I used Gnome on one machine and KDE on another. After RH 6.0 came out, I chose Gnome everywhere and erased KDE. Is it so hard for KDE folks to believe that some of us prefer Gnome, and have not experienced any sort of stability problems with it? To be sure, I didn't have any stability problems with KDE either. They both crash much less than Win98, which I am forced to use for some purposes.

    I went from Gnome 0.3 to 0.9, where I stayed for a long time. When Gnome 1.0 was released, I heard a lot of well-considered criticism of its stability and avoided it. I heard that it was fixed by about 1.03 and that's when I first upgraded to 1.x. I simply do _not_ have problems with crashes on my machine: Celeron 400 with 128MB RAM running RH 6.0 + Gnome (RH 5.2 + Gnome + Kernel 2.2. was just as rock stable). Netscape is the only occasional offender, and nothing that kill can't fix. BTW, I do everything from burning CDs to GIMP art to programming (Python, Java, C), etc on my main machine.

    Gnome has as much a place as KDE. The competition between them has made both _much_ better in spite of the childish jabs from either side. Miguel can sometimes overdo the advocacy, but I have also heard (at second hand, admittedly) hair-raising flame-bait from core KDE developers as well.

    And the key point is that Red Hat is not "pissing away" anything by supporting Gnome. In UIs, as in other things, non est disputandum de gustibus. Believe it or not, the fact that RH didn't board your favorite ship does not doom it to oblivion. Nor does the fact that other distros chose another desktop. All it proves is that there is healthy competition in the Linux landscape.

    --Uche

  • Re:Everybody says E is slow by chkdsk (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:27AM
  • Re:With friends like these, who needs enemas? by Troy Roberts (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @08:50AM
  • This went around the world by Lazy Jones (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @11:56PM
  • If he wasnt strongly anti-debian maybe by Yarn (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @02:04PM
  • by Kestrel (1301) on Monday May 31 1999, @09:45AM (#1873432) Homepage
    I have been trying to get my college to start using Linux on the desktops for some time now, with almost no success. We have all Linux servers, and the geeks use it, but we can't make any sort of dent in the regular desktop users.

    I was rather pleased to see how Gnome was coming along because I don't rather fancy the look of KDE, although that is what I have been using for the computer labs because it is the most complete system at this point.

    Raster is correct in that E and Gnome are two different beasts. That is the problem. In giving out Red Hat 6.0 CDs to Linux newbies, I have found that they all get incredibly confused by the fact that the level of complexity of Gnome is compounded by a factor of two because of the fact that one must configure the window manager and gnome (sorta like matching your shirt and trousers).

    I think that Red Hat was trying to push E towards being "Gnome's window manager" simply because that is what the most people out here would really really like to see. Gnome fills in the gaps that E leaves rather well, and truth be known, I think that a total integration would make the most sense. Insisting that Gnome be "non window manager specific" is just plain insane on their parts: it NEEDS to be or will forever have that dual configuation hell.

    Despite what might be best for Red Hat, or what the most people want, absorbing E into Gnome most certainly isn't Rasterman would want. I can see why he would feel this way. People do open source software not for the money, but for the glory. There is precious little glory having your work buried into another project.

    So, unfortunately, this shows one of the major weaknesses of Open Source. Because the modivation is notority, it lends itself to programmers whose egos can dictate more than what might be good for the community. Raster meantions that he is motivated by user input, but from what I have seen with the people I have tried to introduce Linux to, an integrated Gnome/E would be the most preferable path to take. While really really pretty, Enlightenment has always been the least usable window manager in any incarnation.

    Admittedly, I don't know what might have gone on inside Red Hat, so I apologise to Rasterman if these comments have sounded overly critical, and certainly neither I nor anyone else should have the right to dictate the course of your life. But I must say that I am disappointed to see that we are less likely to see a more integrated Gnome/E and very disappointed that the change could not have been done in a more gentlemanly manner.

    Surely this will provide a dividing line for the community and a oil tankers worth of fuel for the flame war that will follow.

  • Re:heh -- What monopoly by Troy Roberts (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @08:01AM
  • Re:KDE advocacy by PigleT (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:22PM
  • "Be a man and walk away" by akintayo (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @06:56PM
  • Re:I don't see him talking about you on /. by servo8 (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @04:42PM
  • Re:That's not really fair, Alan by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @05:38PM
  • Now who owns E? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:58AM
  • Re:heh by The Welcome Rain (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @01:19PM
  • Re:KDE advocacy by Brian Knotts (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @05:40PM
  • Re:Airing Dirty Laundry by jamesm (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @02:54AM
  • by Raleel (30913) on Monday May 31 1999, @05:18PM (#1873450)
    I don't know Rasterman. I have only used E to some small extent, but enough to know that whatever came with Redhat 6.0 (whether it was E or GNOME's fault) was very slow. E is pretty. I liek the way it looks. I do not like the way it works. But that is ok. I am an ex-windows user. Most people do not care about customizing the crap out of their window manager. They care about what allows them to get their work done. If their IT department mandates a switch from windows to Linux, I say KDE all the way, because they can get their work done quickly. It looks the same. It feels the same. And it was a lot easier to install than E was before RedHat 6.

    As for Rasterman's comments with regards to Redhat. I believe these were extremely unprofessional. I think a simple "creative differences" would have sufficed. But saying that the company stifled your creative energies, etc, etc is a bit more than is needed. All it did was fuel the anti-redhat war.

    Despite what the linux community at large appears to believe, not everyone has time to learn a new OS, a new way of thinking. Thay are not there because of the power of Emacs and grep, they are there because it does not crash. They are there because they can get their work done. IT people like it for remote admining, plus probably the power of the utils. I can vouch for this because I am an IT person, I tried to get a group of windows user to switch, and I knew that they woudl never have time to learn everything. They would rather spend the extra 3 minutes rebooting into something they knew rather than spend an extra 5 learning how to do email, then an extra 5 learnign how to start a command line app, then learn how to tar.

    I know that learning is good (I spent the last year and a half learning linux as much as I could). I know that there are philosophical and ethical reasons for using linux. I don't care about those. I care that it is free (as in beer). I think it is neat that it is free (as in speech). I care that it works, and that the community in general cares more about quality than features. That's why I will use it. And I will keep using distributions that are easy to use.
  • Re:business culture by Brian Knotts (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @05:45PM
  • Re:That's not really fair, Alan by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @05:33PM
  • Sins by Roberto (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @02:10PM
  • wm2 by Yarn (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @02:11PM
  • Re:Bad letter... by quux26 (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @07:10PM
  • business culture by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @09:25AM
  • Re:Rasterman's coding style by Catullus (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:38PM
  • Airing Dirty Laundry by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @07:03PM
  • Re:I find this all rather unfortunate. by Thomas Charron (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @07:25AM
  • He deserves some credit. by Psiren (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:30PM
  • Raster- Stop by and visit with us at Linuxcare! by aftyde (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @04:43PM
  • Re:Hate to disagree with God, but.. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @03:05PM
  • I thought.. by suprax (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:08AM
  • This is a self fulfiling prophesy by akintayo (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @11:02AM
  • Re:Humble KDE by Roberto (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @02:55PM
  • Re:Red Hat is still the best by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @09:03PM
  • Re:Red Hat's clone goal by Bowie J. Poag (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @02:15PM
  • Re:Sins by Roberto (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @03:55PM
  • No doubt! by gavinhall (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:36AM
  • Re:Sins by mill (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @03:46PM
  • bravo!! by wrex (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @05:19PM
  • That's not really fair, Alan by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @11:40AM
  • Re:Red Hat's clone goal by doodzed (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @09:45AM
  • Re:Tip for pissed-off coders everywhere by Pingo (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @01:03AM
  • Has anyone confirmed that this is real? On rasterman's page ( www.rasterman.com/raster/ [rasterman.com]) he writes:
    Tue May 4 22:54:17 EDT 1999

    OK OK.. The following article here [linuxnewbie.org] Is garbage - I never wrote it, posted it, said it or anything. I don't have a girlfriend... (sux eh?) I live on the 3rd floor, not the 2nd, my computer does all it needs, I haven't given any notice to Red Hat about leaving in any way or form - nor am I intending to, Red Hat is just fine - it's not becoming a huge microsoft, E is NOT dead - damnit.. I'm still patching stuff and am adding features (just been sick for the last week with a flu - thus a bit slow), and no - not all my knowledge is computer based. I can speak German and French pretty well, can paint and draw. Hell it was posted at 6:26pm - I was at the Durham Ball park watching a baseball game with other Red Hat employees at that time. So whoever was so childish as to go posting this complete piece of FUD and GARBAGE I think now would be a good time to come clean and admit it and fix it. I DON'T like people masquerading as me - It's not nice to do it, not gentlmanly, not mature and not intelligent. I have very little respect for such childish behavior. If I have anything to say I'll say it HERE on MY pages at rasterman.com - not at some site I've never heard about until today. (my emphasis) Now back to doing useful stuff, like code... and looking for a girlfriend.... :)

    There is no entry on his page that he is leaving RedHat. However, he DOES say that he is moving to California:

    Sun May 30 17:51:28 EDT 1999

    Pack pack pack pack... I'm packing... wow - my room is almost empty... only the last essentials remain in it - computer, stereo and chair and a suitcaseof clothes... Tuesday morning I'm leaving this god forsaken land they call North Carolina and driving west... and I'm loving the idea.

    In fact I'm never coming back... I'm leaving North Carolina for good and moving... Goodbye sweet Chapel Hill. Adios My dear RTP. I'm so happy to get out! Welcome California sunshine, California girls, California countryside, Real Cities, Supermarkets that sell liquor.

    I'll be driving west from Chapel Hill via I-40 then heading to St Louis, then off to Denver, via Salt Lake City, and finally arriving in the Bay area, Northern California. I'm looking forward to seeing America.

    Fri May 28 12:59:15 EDT 1999

    Don't mail me! :)

    Next week I'm going to be gone and completely out of contact - I'm taking a long trip across the country, so if you expect a reply to your mail.. um.. well then.. don't.

    So, we know for sure that he is leaving North Carolina, but not that he is quitting RedHat. Can anyone verify more than this? Was his post signed?
  • Re:What Linux is about, was Re:Choking down one's by pingbak (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @08:14AM
  • divergent goals (Score:5)

    by esacevets (26712) on Monday May 31 1999, @09:47AM (#1873492) Homepage
    I met Carsten once, at the 1998 Linux Expo (and what a blast that was). He struck me as a highly creative mind, with a desire to create software that is innovative above all else.

    RH, it seems, wants to target the mainstream user. Simplicity is their goal.

    Both are great goals. But these are divergent goals. it is sad to hear of the sniping and infighting in RH. But, perhaps, this is more proof the the Linux Revolution (tm) is in full swing. This simple software can be stretched into countless directions. In essence, this CAN be a good thing for us all.

    Good luck, Raster. I will keep your RH business card as a collector's item.

    JL Culp
  • Re:Youc could see this coming a mile away ... by donito (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @01:32PM
  • Sounds good to me by Tenzin (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @09:43AM
  • Real news. (Score:3)

    by Rahga (13479) on Monday May 31 1999, @10:29AM (#1873496) Homepage Journal
    Mandrake said he does not presently have a job.
    And as far as most of you should be concerned, raster has said of GNOME-vs-KDE
    "I wish people would quit fighting and start coding."
    Quit wasting your breath, people, and get a life. Start making your own stuff, most of this chatter is useless. Find a better way to waste breath :)
  • [offtopic] Re:Packages? by rcw-work (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @11:04AM
  • by Alan Cox (27532) on Tuesday June 01 1999, @02:55AM (#1873499) Homepage
    My palmtop is a 486. I care it runs stuff well. It doesn't run E too well, which I don't care about and imlib is awful on it, although better since I bitched at Raster.

    The 20 seconds delay on a 486SX caused by imlib poor coding is a 4 second delay on a pentium 166 which for 10 gnome apps starting is a lot of CPU time.

    People who write unjustifiably unoptimised code are not good programmers. People who write inconsistent guis are not the greatest gui designers.

    There is a lot of E code that is justifiably CPU intensive. It isnt rasters fault shape extension in X11 is heavy nor that transparent window moves while they look beautiful are CPU heavy. Imlib on the other hand I don't like codewise. I use it cos it works. (That being qualification #1 for good software 8)).

    Another way to think of it for the more religious warfare inclined - imlib is why KDE is a lot faster than gnome on an 8bit display lower end machine.
  • XML Configuration Files by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @06:12PM
  • Re:Red Hat is still the best by Melbert (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @05:59PM
  • Tip for pissed-off coders everywhere by Paul Crowley (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @09:12PM
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 31 1999, @04:08PM (#1873503)
    Except Debian, Red Hat is still ethically the best distribution. SuSE and Caldera do the completely proprietary dance.

    If you don't like the $80 price tag, buy the $40 version without support. They were just diversifing their product range; not raising prices. $80 RH6 has better support than 5.2, and costs more. $40 RH6 has no support, but costs less.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 31 1999, @10:20AM (#1873504)
    "Most European cathedrals show differences in plan or architectural style between parts build in different generations by different builders... Against these, the architectuaral unity of Reims stands in glorious contrast... As the guidebook tells us, this integrity was achieved by the self-abnegation of eight generations of builders, each of whom sacrificed some of his ideas so that the whole might be of pure design. The result proclaims not only the glory of God, but also His power to salvage fallen men from their pride."

    Fred Brooks
    The Mythical Man-month

  • Re:Is this for real? (His page seems to refute it) by Avatar/X (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @10:24AM
  • Re:Youc could see this coming a mile away ... by ShieldWolf (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @02:55AM
  • RedHat ought to LOVE this! (Screenshots) by Chas (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @08:44PM
  • Re:Just what is "Enlightenment" relative to "Gnome by BJH (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @03:58PM
  • RedHat in California by Nessak (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @10:25AM
  • Re:business culture by Isaac-Lew (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @04:09PM
  • Re:Wow by hadron (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @01:05AM
  • Re:Unify wm's and de's, but not toolkits! by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @04:44PM
  • Re:Miguel doesnt work for Red Hat silly by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @09:47AM
  • by Filgy (2588) on Monday May 31 1999, @09:53AM (#1873519) Homepage
    Raster was in #e the other night talking to us all about leaving RH. It is confirmed from his mouth (err.. fingers.. >:))
  • Re:Enlightenment is a beast... by McKing (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @07:08PM
  • Re:I find this all rather unfortunate. by CobaltQ (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @03:08PM
  • Re:widget topology? by John Allsup (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @12:29AM
  • Not surprising. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @09:28AM
  • by ghjm (8918) on Monday May 31 1999, @11:08AM (#1873529) Homepage
    Red Hat is in the middle of a conversion from a small, tightly-integrated company with a strong shared vision of its beliefs and values, to a larger firm, a notable industry player, with dissenting versions of what its vision should be.

    No doubt there are people at Red Hat who think that producing a Windows-clone user interface is the best way to going beyond the early adopters and penetrating the majority market. No doubt there are also people at Red Hat who think that the whole point of the exercise has been to build something different from Microsoft's offerings and that if you're just going to turn the product into a Windows-clone, why bother? No doubt there are even people at Red Hat who don't care a great deal about these issues, and just want to do their job and pick up a paycheck.

    This is normal.

    I'm not saying that I agree with everything Red Hat is doing; in fact, I have had serious issues with Red Hat for a couple years now. But this item is not one of them. We can only expect to hear more and more dissent from inside Red Hat, and this is good--it means they are maintaining transparency. We as users and customers want to know what's going on inside the company, and that means sometimes we will see some dirty laundry aired. Let's try to be mature about it.

    -Graham
  • Re:Not surprising. by Me2v (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @11:06AM
  • Re:Packages? by Scola (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:41AM
  • Immature OSS coders by gavinhall (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @02:37PM
  • "Better to keep quiet and look like a fool..." by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @02:20PM
  • Re:Odd news. by Someone (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @08:25AM
  • by gavinhall (33) on Monday May 31 1999, @01:40PM (#1873541)
    Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:

    ...it does matter. The owner of the copyright decides the license.

    Example: Let's say RH owns E. Right now E is under the GPL so no big deal. Then RH becomes evil AND has a good idea for a new killer feature for E. They add the feature and re-release E binary only. They can do this because they are the copyright owner. If they were just a licensee then Evil RH is no problem. You can see how this would suck.

    In the case of kernel code (particularly from you) it's a little different. First, I believe you contract to RH, do you not? Unless you signed something saying RH owns the code you write they probably don't--you aren't an employee, you are a separate company (although this would be worth looking into). Furthermore, even if they did own the stuff you write/wrote, it's only a small fraction of the total kernel (no offense). With E, we are talking about the whole ball of wax.

    Now that I think about it, this is a good reason to worry about any company that collects kernel developers like action figures. If they get enough of them they can release non-GPL'd Linux code...
    --
    "Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
  • Re:wm2 by scrytch (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @04:44PM
  • by Alan Cox (27532) on Monday May 31 1999, @09:43AM (#1873544) Homepage
    Miguel and the control of Gnome all reside outside of the Red Hat world. Miguel works for unam, who afaik don't have anything to do with E development or have an official policy on it.

    Alan
  • Competition and Co-operation by Midnight Coder (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @02:58PM
  • Re:Your thoughts... by quux26 (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @07:14PM
  • Re:Humble KDE by jregel (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @01:34PM
  • Re:Red Hat comes to their senses. by andreas (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:31AM
  • GPL by sterwill (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @06:03PM
  • Unify wm's and de's, but not toolkits! by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @04:12PM
  • Re:Odd news. by ChrisJones (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @06:12PM
  • Bad letter... by kevin lyda (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @03:59PM
  • Re:That's not really fair, Alan by rcooper (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @03:19AM
  • Re:Debian? by balmeida (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @02:39PM
  • Not possible by dmiller (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @08:44PM
  • Re:RedHat's future -> multiple window managers by ChrisJones (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @06:06PM
  • Re:Hate to disagree with God, but.. by Mandrake (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @05:36PM
  • Re:Debian? by Scola (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:45AM
  • by pingbak (33924) on Monday May 31 1999, @09:53AM (#1873566) Homepage
    I'm not sure why there's always been an anti-biz slant to just about every one of these divorces. Sometimes, and I've been there and done that, one has to do code which productizes software.

    Overall, I think RH is on the right track to making Linux (or broadly, Unix, since most Linux apps will run on other x86 Unix platforms) usable for the masses. Yes, it means "selling out" to "the corporates" -- but it's not selling out, per se. The reason why mediocrity has 90% of the users out there is because it has an incredible marketing machine (and really crafty contract writers.) Part of the RH strategy is to give the ordinary (dare I say, mediocre?) users something they're familiar with... and then be completely subversive by introducing changes that get them on the road to something more useful (UI-wise, application-wise, etc.)

    While I appreciate and try to code to perfection too, there's a point at which the code has to be released and shipped. Usually companies have two sets of coders: one which creates the features and the "cool stuff" and another set which productizes. It seems to me that RHAD combined the two, pissed off one of their developers, and now we all get to hear about the bad blood.

    Personally, I hope there's an opening when I finish this degree at RHAD. The important lesson is to choke down one's ego when it's appropriate.


    -scooter
  • Re:People who think a 486 is obsolete by rcooper (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @11:25AM
  • Re:business culture by IntlHarvester (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @03:15PM
  • With friends like these, who needs enemas? by lostguy (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @07:16PM
  • Re:Software ethics! - freeness by Avus (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:49PM
  • Re:business culture by pingbak (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @08:38AM
  • Re:Donnie Barnes works for Red Hat by Donnie Barnes (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @09:10AM
  • Re:Humble KDE by miguel (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @01:40PM
  • Re:It was deleted by Roberto (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @03:00PM
  • Re:Youc could see this coming a mile away ... by webwalker (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @03:09PM
  • by j_edge (20712) on Monday May 31 1999, @11:11AM (#1873580)
    I think you miss the point though that it's not RedHat's project to "productize". I thought it was a good thing when RedHat hired Raster. I don't particuliarly care for the company itself, but I thought that the fact they were hiring coders to work on their own "free software" projects was really cool. I didn't know that they would try and dictate the direction he would take with it, though. That is not for them to do, being as it's not their software to do it with.

    Let me put it another way. Let's say a band you like is on a small label, and playing a certain style of music, and suddenly they sign a lucrative recording contract. If their music were to change from corporate pressure (tone down the lyrics, or make it more "Top 40'ish"), they would have sold out. It is very much selling out. They would have changed what they had been doing not because they wanted to, but to make the company that was paying them happy (and rich).

    Personally, I am really happy that Raster didn't sell out. Besides being able to respect his integrity, I think the community is much better off with Raster coding what he likes & bringing his contributions back to the community, and Red Hat either hiring someone to code their GNOME-compliant Win9x-style interface that they want to appeal to the masses or go back to using fvwm95 or whatever.

    How many people would be upset if Alfredo was being paid to work on Window Maker, but one day the corp. that writes his paycheck thought it would be a good idea that would help new users by changing the GNUStep logo in the top of the dock to a "talking, help-giving paperclip"(tm) :). The only difference is WM is modelled after a specific environ so it would be immediately obvious, but with E the specs are all in Raster's head and if the company that's paying him is telling him to go against the direction he wants it to go, that is a bad thing.

    Keep up the good work, Raster, Mandrake, Alfredo, Miguel & the _COUNTLESS_OTHERS_ who spend YOUR time creating software and sharing it with us. And thank you.

    j-E
  • by guacamole (24270) on Monday May 31 1999, @01:35PM (#1873583)
    Raster is right about adding more GUI shell capabilities to E. There are people who want to have a nice looking, functional, fast and easy to use windowing enviroment, but at the same time they don't want all the bloat and useless features of things like GNOME.

    Don't get me wrong. I myself use WindowMaker 0.53 . It is reaching the shell stage Raster is talking about. It has app dock, 2 GUI configuration programs, themes, nice looking, fast , drag n' drop, etc (though, the file manager is not there yet). I have downloaded, installed, and deleted GNOME and KDE many times. Deleted GNOME mainly for instability and KDE 1.1 because I don't see why should I need all those features.

    In GNOME and KDE it is easy to configure things like menu, background or the dock, but you can do so in Window Maker for example very easily as well. And the rest of KDE/GNOME deatures only add bloat.

    I use gvim/vim instead of their pussy text editors, epic instead of xchat, xterm (with nexaw3d) instead of kterm or gnome term, pine/tin instead balsa, kmail, etc. Overall GNOME looks more like a shell for newbies, thats it. I like KDE more, because it has at least a window manager (and very nice), but still I feel that WindowMakert and other window managers already have all features that I need (well, a fast, stable, integrated file manager would be nice too but it is not a necessity for me)
  • Re:Immature OSS coders by esacevets (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @04:20PM
  • Packages by sterwill (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:12AM
  • Re:The point: by Scola (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @06:22PM
  • Pilfer code by Chris Johnson (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @09:22PM
  • Re:It's true: And you got moderated down by Jadawin (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @06:15PM
  • Hoax by jcrosby (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:45AM
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 31 1999, @10:43AM (#1873595)
    Why do you think that this is the truth? This is one persons view of things. How much did raster have to do with GNOME? The only think I see is his window manager specs. He most likely did not work well in the RHAD environment because it came time to get some real work done - i.e. - Red Hat Linux 6.0 needed to have a good desktop. raster has never worried about deadlines or backwards compatibility. Just look at how many times theme creaters have to rewrite their themes because of config file format changes.

    Furthermore, Red Hat is doing the furthest thing from making a Windows clone. It may be true that they made the Clean theme - the most Windows looking theme - the default in Red Hat Linux 6.0. That decision HARDLY makes Red Hat Linux a windows clone.

    Just by saying "unlike GNOME I won't make a vaporware publicity stunt out of it" you've done just that - in saying these things about your co-workers - your colleagues - it shows that raster just didn't fit in. It seems that he had his own agenda and just wasn't a team player in the labs.
  • Re: your code is spaghettit by Jez (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @01:08AM
  • Re:It's true: And you got moderated down by Eric E. Coe (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @01:11PM
  • Re:Well thankfully there are plenty of KDE binding by hadron (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @12:58AM
  • Re:Red Hat comes to their senses. by Catullus (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:18AM
  • Re:Packages? by w00p (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @04:59PM
  • E's buttons can't all behave the same way? by Morgaine (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @01:42PM
  • Not a bad thing (Score:4)

    by jaffray (6665) on Monday May 31 1999, @11:16AM (#1873607)
    Red Hat wants to bring Linux to the masses. Raster wants to write really cool code. These are both worthy goals, and they often overlap; but often they don't, such as when the masses want something boring.

    So it makes sense for Raster to go his own way, and I don't think it's a disaster or a tragedy or a commentary on free software development; he and the company just didn't fit together well, that's all. He's variably sized and curvy, Red Hat is 64x64 and square.

    People change jobs. It happens. Often it's good.

    Alan

    who prefers his windows rectangular and opaque, but still appreciates Raster's work

  • Re:Missing Points by hadron (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @01:00AM
  • Re:Miguel doesnt work for Red Hat silly by Tim Moore (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @09:48AM
  • Re:Asshole not by balrog (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @01:38PM
  • by gavinhall (33) on Monday May 31 1999, @11:19AM (#1873611)
    Posted by Federico Mena-Quintero:

    I think you are referring to an article about RHAD Labs that appeared some months ago in the News and Observer (a local paper). It was me who made similar, but not quite the same comments.

    Let me tell you the little story. The day before the interview I had spent an unfruitful afternoon trying to write a configuration file for Enlightenment, to make a theme. Mind you, I did not succeed. So the next day I was rambling about how unreadable Enlightenment's configuration files are. I was especially untactful against the Enlightenment configuration parser.

    So on the next day there came this reporter to interview the RHAD Labs crowd, and he asked me what I was rambling about. I told him, and somehow he managed to mangle it into text that said that I hated Raster's code and that Enlightenment was a bad program. I don't think I said that. I said that I did not like the way it parses configuration files. I apologize to Raster if I was harsh.

    I have offered Raster to write a real parser for his Enlightenment configuration files. I think it is important for the window manager such as Enlightenment to have an easy way to create themes. A configuration file with better organization than what there is now would be good. A GUI tool to do it would be even better.

    Again, I am sorry. I have learned the hard way that the press likes to mangle one's thoughts to create "interesting" press about a non-existent conflict.

    As Miguel said, the thing that we *do* want to replace is Imlib. Imlib's memory management is rather poor, and as such GNOME applications cannot be as efficient as they could be with respect to image loading and caching. Imlib was designed for Enlightenment's particular needs and as a libXpm replacement.

    I hope this clears things up. I apologize to Raster if that newspaper article implied offensive things. And I wish him the best of luck in California, where you can find nice civilized cities.

    Federico
  • Re:Enlightenment is a beast... by C.Lee (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:30PM
  • Software ethics! by sterwill (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @01:35PM
  • Re:Not surprising. by warmi (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @04:43AM
  • Re:WHAT GNOME publicity stunt? by zifnab (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:33AM
  • Re:Humble KDE by Galt (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @02:41PM
  • More Corporate Violation by dface (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @10:52AM
  • Missing Points by sterwill (Score:1) Sunday May 30 1999, @09:55PM
  • by HappyHead (11389) on Tuesday June 01 1999, @03:48AM (#1873623)
    E may not be the WM everyone uses at work, but its the one everyone uses for shows.

    Actually, not only do I use E at work, my job would be considerably more difficult without it. I have to take care of 6 Unix servers, and several Unix workstations, and I've got E set up on my desktop to change window borders/... depending on which machine a window is connected to so that I can find my way around faster. To the best of my knowlege, that's not an easy task with any other Wm. Between that, and the keyboard shortcuts, I'm about 3 or 4 times as fast using E as when I'm using any other Wm. I've used twm, Mwm, 4Dwm, OpenLook, AfterStep, WindowMaker, fvwm, and even a few scary 'built-into-the-Xterminal' window managers, and so far, the only one that I've had not crash on me is E-15. (I'm very abusive towards system resources.) I guess that makes me a freak or something, but the only one I've used that was as fast as E was OpenLook. (On linux that is. The only Sun I've natively run X on is a sparc1, and it's slower than my 486, which runs imlib just fine.)

    I don't know how my Grandmother would react to E, but my 3 year old niece has no problems using it. Most of the time she just wants to turn on the screen saver or shut the machine down, but she also knows how to start up a drawing program to doodle with. (She scares me.)
  • Re:Ummmm... by Luis Casillas (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @04:10PM
  • Re:It was deleted by Nail (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @02:44PM
  • Re:Good lad. by goon (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @02:23PM
  • Re:business culture by Clevo (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @01:39PM
  • Re:It's probably true by bem (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:43AM
  • Re:Software ethics! by Midnight Coder (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @03:29PM
  • Is this true? by Midnight Coder (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @01:32AM
  • heh (Score:5)

    by Nite_Hawk (1304) on Monday May 31 1999, @09:54AM (#1873632)
    Back when Raster started working at Redhat I was kinda wondering how it would turn out. I'm not terribly surprised to see the outcome, but a bit disappointed in Redhat. I don't use the distribution myself, but with the price raise to $80 for 6.0 (At the local Best Buy anyway), and Raster's comments here, it really seems like they may be headed towards being exactly what so many of us feared. This isn't to say that Redhat is going to become some kind of dictator, but that thier goals as a business, not just succeeding, but excessively growing, seem to be getting higher priority than than just developing cool software.

    I understand that making sure you have a good business model is certainly important, but when any company, or even a group of people, target to have a monopoly on the interface to linux, i.e. what a person sees, when they see it, how they interact with it, that strikes me as being rather scary. This is, imho, why Enlightenment seems such a good concept. Provide the backbone to allow any interface, but do everything behind the scenes. Don't market the default interface as the end all. Actively promote diversity to accomplish the best results. I truely hope in the future that linux doesn't simply become the underlying archetecture to propriatary interfaces. Even with opensourced code, the concept of an end-all interface with it's own agenda can be damaging. Unfortunatly, it appears that this is the road that many companies, (and individuals) desire. Hopefully the most open design in the end will win, and that the people who work for companies investing in linux, will not abuse thier positions.

    Ok, I'm off my soapbox now, flame away.. ;)

  • GNOME publicity stunt? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @09:57AM
  • Selling out to who? by Saltheart (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @09:51AM
  • Of course possibly by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday June 01 1999, @01:01AM
  • Re:Ummmm... by geekd (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @07:20PM
  • "Nice civilized cities" by agarcia (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @10:14AM
  • Re:WHAT GNOME publicity stunt? by HarpMan (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @03:24PM
  • Re:Asshole by balrog (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @03:09PM
  • OFF-Topic: Advertising by Bananenrepublik (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @01:38PM
  • Re:business culture by bwporter (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @07:22PM
  • Re:Not surprising. (Score:3)

    by shutton (4725) on Monday May 31 1999, @09:33AM (#1873644) Homepage

    This really depresses me. I had it in the back of my brain that Red Hat was a good bunch, some folks who made the free software model work. And I'd ignored most of the "is Red Hat turning into the next Microsoft" comments because I figured that was just the nature of their position in the Linux market.



    If what Rasterman says about Red Hat trying to push out a Windows clone, that really changes my opinion of them. I hate seeing applications that seek to be exact Windows knock-offs. How can we say that Windows is a bad thing if we just turn around and emulate it? This is the time for rethinking things, lest we become the beast itself.

  • Re:Ummmm...Faulty Logic by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @04:25PM
  • Re:Youc could see this coming a mile away ... by warmi (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @04:49AM
  • Re:XML Configuration Files by C.Lee (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @09:55PM
  • Re:Rasterman by ChrisJones (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @06:15PM
  • Re:Humble KDE by Nail (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @02:27PM
  • Re:Red Hat comes to their senses. by RevRa (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:47AM
  • Re:Interesting. by dsfox (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @02:00AM
  • Re:Asshole by gavinhall (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @02:32PM
  • A man to be admired. by Cylix (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:03AM
  • Re:Shells vs Desktop Environments by Mark Bainter (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @04:53PM
  • WHAT GNOME publicity stunt? by gavinhall (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:04AM
  • If I wanted a file manager, I'd use Windoze by ebcdic (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @02:04AM
  • Re:Hate to disagree with God, but.. by CobaltQ (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @03:26PM
  • Re:Missing Points by hadron (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @01:03AM
  • Re:GNOME will be next? by Brandon S. Allbery (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @03:32PM
  • signed post by zosima (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @01:54PM
  • Re:Odd news. by umoto (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @07:42PM
  • by miguel (7116) on Monday May 31 1999, @09:54AM (#1873668) Homepage
    You got your references wrong Dude.

    It was not me trying to rewrite E, probably someone else, but not me. As far as I care, I only care about the application framework and the applications.

    The window managers never quite excited me, so I doubt it was me.

    The only code I want to rewrite is Imlib, because Imlib 1.xx has serious memory management issues. So we are going to base our new image code in Raph Levien's code.

    Hope this clears up your confussion.

    Miguel.
  • BLACKBOX by Cuchullain (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @05:42AM
  • Re:gtkwm, or, where has my reply link gone? by pingbak (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:12AM
  • Interesting. (Score:4)

    by Donnie Barnes (4674) on Monday May 31 1999, @09:32AM (#1873671) Homepage

    Interesting commentary indeed.

    I wish Raster the best of luck. I'm not sure why he would care to say nasty things about Red Hat, the product, or the people there, though. I don't know anyone at Red Hat who did anything to make Red Hat an unhappy place for him.

    Sometimes things just aren't a perfect fit, though, and people have to find that perfect fit. I hope raster finds his. I'm saddened at Red Hat wasn't it.

    I also hope that E development continues as it has. I think it's a damned good piece of free software and hope to continue to be able to use it. I also hope it does continue to tie into GNOME nicely. No, it doesn't have to be the GNOME window manager. There can be many. But I like E and I think it fits well.

    Anyway, good luck raster.


    --Donnie
  • Re:business culture by asmussen (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @01:43PM
  • Good lad. (Score:4)

    by Chris Johnson (580) on Monday May 31 1999, @11:20AM (#1873673) Homepage
    I don't use Red Hat- I pillage it ;)
    I'm currently trying to build a really small linux installation for 486es, and I'm getting the files from RH5.1 to do it. The CD originally came from linuxmall as a two-for-one at about $5. Red Hat is probably not the distribution I should be using, but it's the only one we got at the moment, we're real low budget :)
    Anyone who seriously thinks that cloning Windows is strategically vital had better go investigate the Interface Hall of Shame [iarchitect.com], and the reviews of the Windows Find applet, Explorer, and the common file dialogs. These are faithfully duplicated in environments like KDE (I'm thinking of Explorer in particular, it is _very_ similar), and the agenda to clone Windows will bring more and more of these horrible, appalling errors and awkwardnesses into whichever Linux environment goes that route.
    Meanwhile, I'll be messing around with largely text-oriented Window Maker implementations (and figuring out neat things to do with scripts), and Raster will presumably be constantly furthering the limits of wild and ornate window manager interface design, and we can damned well make our _own_ mistakes, thank you: we don't _have_ to make Windows' mistakes as well just to be taken seriously. I'll happily take Raster seriously- he talks like a designer, like someone willing to try something new, or make his own decisions. I hope he takes me seriously but hey, I haven't 'shipped' yet so I have to get results together before I can expect to even be noticed. At any rate, I think it's safe to say that neither of us give a damn for faithfully replicating Windows mistakes out of some misguided notion that it is expected of us ;P
    So good luck, and if there's anything I can do to help, Raster, you're welcome to it. Here, it's not much, but I am good with GFX: use any or all of my Linux graphics [airwindows.com] such as tiles and textures and backgrounds. If I can do more I will, and if my own pursuits help you out I will rejoice, just as I daresay you'd rejoice if yours help out mine.
    And if Red Hat does not rejoice to see non-Red-Hat-style implementations being busily developed, if they do not rejoice to see their profitable standardization undercut by people like us, well, fsckem ;) who knows, we may yet discover that something like Red Hat is simply not profitable. Over in Mac land we have recently suffered the loss of a _very_ historic third party company, Micro Conversions, the only ones doing Voodoo2 cards for the Mac officially. Hacks of their drivers drove them under. We might see Red Hat croak in similar fashion for two reasons:
    • if you want windows so badly, Microsoft is happy to sell you it
    • cheapbytes. Who pays the packager/distributor $80 for what is free, particularly if it isn't in turn funding the Rastermans of the world? Who'll pay Red Hat to make Linux more like Windows? Not me, I'll tell you. They are just another distribution.
    Good luck, Rasterman. Hack on.
  • You've got the right idea by Mawbid (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @03:54AM
  • It's probably true by nd (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:36AM
  • X Windows??? by John Allsup (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @10:31PM
  • Re:Odd news.. My sentiments exactly by angelo (Score:2) Tuesday June 01 1999, @04:02AM
  • Re:It's true: And you got moderated down by Eric E. Coe (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @09:37PM
  • Re:Rasterman's coding style by symlink (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:53AM
  • Re:Is this for real? (His page seems to refute it) by Beauxo (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @10:38AM
  • Re:Best of luck to you Carsten! by sweetooth (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @02:35PM
  • Re:Red Hat comes to their senses. by chkdsk (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:44AM
  • Re:People who think a 486 is obsolete by enterfornone (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @01:54PM
  • Irrelevant by dmiller (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @08:48PM
  • The beginning of the end...? by Sanity (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @10:05AM
  • Actually by Tenareth (Score:2) Tuesday June 01 1999, @02:30AM
  • Re:Is this for real? (His page seems to refute it) by wimpy (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:00AM
  • Re:Red Hat comes to their senses. by AME (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @05:12PM
  • raster and Enlightenment. by Contramac (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @02:35AM
  • Best of luck to you Carsten! by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @09:33AM
  • CALU (Was: Re:business culture) by njd (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @03:13PM
  • Rasterman by jedigeek (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @01:49PM
  • Re:business culture by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @01:39PM
  • Re:So which wm will Redhat stick with long term? by C.Lee (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:49PM
  • Re:Humble KDE by Brian Knotts (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @04:56PM
  • desktop rants by Sharkeys-Day (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @06:22AM
  • Re:business culture by John Allsup (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:50PM
  • by Alan Cox (27532) on Monday May 31 1999, @09:34AM (#1873708) Homepage
    Try inflicting Enlightenment on your grandmother or using imlib on a 486SX machine. There will always be a difference between end user ease and reliability and the Rastermans flair for the bizarre and incredibly flexible.

    Enlightenment is a beautiful toy, if you want to do wild and wonderful things. But to a lot of people the fact that all buttons behave the same way is a feature they like.

    Good luck Raster, E may not be the WM everyone uses at work, but its the one everyone uses for shows.

    Alan
  • Thank God. by hatless (Score:1) Tuesday June 01 1999, @04:29AM
  • Re:another RHAD employee by zigzag (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @04:16PM
  • Re:business culture by Ketchup (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @04:30PM
  • Oops? redhat.com by lyonsj (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @06:18PM
  • Better get used to it... by Simon Carr (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @10:54AM
  • Re:GNOME will be next? by gavinhall (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:47AM
  • Re:"Better to keep quiet and look like a fool..." by Sanity (Score:1) Wednesday June 02 1999, @01:56AM
  • yes, it's true. friday was his last day at redhat.
    --
    Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
    Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)
  • Re:I find this all rather unfortunate. by cameldrv (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @02:50PM
  • E docs aren't exactly user friendly either by !IH (Score:2) Tuesday June 01 1999, @02:42AM
  • Re:business culture by Chris Parrinello (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @07:43PM
  • Re:I find this all rather unfortunate. by mdemeny (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @10:07AM
  • Re:E might also do fro me by C.Lee (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @01:57PM
  • Re:Red Hat comes to their senses. by Mandrake (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @11:17AM
  • Youc could see this coming a mile away ... by ShieldWolf (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @09:35AM
  • Qt 2 is both OSS and free software by Avus (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @10:58PM
  • Red Hat comes to their senses. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @09:38AM
  • Re:Not surprising. (Anti Windows?) by splutty (Score:2) Monday May 31 1999, @10:13PM
  • Re:KWM footprint = 4M by Phil-14 (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @04:28PM
  • by Morgaine (4316) on Monday May 31 1999, @04:32PM (#1873744)
    AFAIK, Raster has always welcomed people's contributions to Enlightenment, both in terms of ideas and even more so in the form of patches. I seem to recall some quite explicit note to that effect either on the E website/mailing list or in the sources. That doesn't seem to be the mark of someone that won't accept input from others.

    Are you suggesting that this was not really so in practice, that he didn't want to accept certain types of functionality and so he left? Details please. E could be themed to look and behave very very much like W95, so there's no inherent reason why RH couldn't have put E to good use in their plans as far as I can tell.

    Maybe the source of the problem is that perhaps RH wanted Raster *not* to work on the bits of E that he knows currently require a lot of attention, but on other bits instead --- maybe W95 lookalike or workalike functionality, since he mentions something like that. I can see how that would not have gone down too well. It's typical of managerial types to want to direct the course of development in ways that don't take technical necessity into account.

    I guess we'll never really know the full story though.
  • Re:Missing Points by Roberto (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @01:20PM
  • Re:Good lad. by ChrisJones (Score:1) Monday May 31 1999, @06:21PM
  • 148 replies beneath your current threshold.
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Steve Jobs said two years ago that X is brain-damaged and it will be gone in two years. He was half right. -- Dennis Ritchie

 



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