Software PVRs Becoming Tivo Killers

mikemuch writes "ExtremeTech's Jason Cross examines PVR software that runs on Windows -- applications from SnapStream, Cyberlink, and SageTV. With TiVo's mounting price hikes, service contracts, and 'features' like self-deleting shows, the DIY option is getting more appealing all the time." From the article: "All the major TV features you're used to with TiVo or Windows Media Center Edition are there--quick 30 second skip, padding show recordings (start early and stop late), a nice integrated guide with easy-to-read program info. The interface design isn't quite as good as either of those two other options, but it's one of the best we've seen in a Windows-based PVR application outside of MCE. If we had to pick an annoyance, it's that you can't seem to bring up the program guide or navigate the menu without stopping the live TV or recording that you're watching. TiVo plays the current TV program in the background, and MCE plays it in a small window in the lower left. We didn't miss it until it was gone."

MCE for me, unfortunately

I currently run MCE05 after years of Tivo and love it. It never fails, the interface is usable by the lady, and it was a breeze to install.

I tried EVERY other Win & Lin PVR and none were as stable or easy to install/use. The new Rollup2 for MCE adds copy/view restrictions but they're relying on the video driver and encoder to pass the flag. I found a driver that doesn't pass the flag, and I'm happy.

I'd love to switch to Meedio or MythTV but recent trials a few weeks ago vetoed the idea. Stability and ease of use weren't there yet. MCE is a performance hog but it works. No kludges, never crashes and really integrates well in my house with the Xbox Extender.

My reason...

I can't speak for the parent, but one reason I'm attracted to MythTV is because of external modules, stuff like MythGame, MythWeather, MythPhone, etc.

As for TiVo, they still (for now) have one big advantage for me: I'm a DirecTV subscriber, and TiVo is the only device that will record the digital signal instead of the analog conversion. When DirecTV starts offering their own DVRs, I'll probably start using it instead. I love my TiVo and MythTV, but the most important thing to me is seeing what I watch in its glorious original quality.

Re:My reason...

Games, Weather, Phone etc. are also avaiable on MCE.

TiVo Too

Galleon [sourceforge.net] and other projects provide many of these functions (such as weather) to your off-the-shelf network-connected TiVo

Re:MCE for me, unfortunately

I've built 5 MCE systems for others using 5 different hardware setups. They all work. The Wife Acceptance Factor necessitates it.

Every MythTV I've built has involved future phone calls. I've followed guides and tried various installs. When my home MythTV burped, it was hours of hitting forums to resolve.

I've been building PCs (Win & Lin) for 19 years. I love Linux, but MythTV is ill supported.

Funny thing... I had to call MS once for an MCE issue, and tech support figured it out in 10 minutes.

When a F/OSS PVR passes the WAF, I'll keep it.

Re:MCE for me, unfortunately

After 19 years of dating I can give a few good reasons for living under the WAF:

10. Less chance of catching VD.
9. Laundry always clean
8. Personal Memory Backup
7. Cheaper insurance rates
6. Morning Sex
5. Ego boost (she's hott)
4. Someone to procreate with without threat of lawsuit or ridiculous child support hassles
3. Inside jokes get better
2. Introduction to non-AnCap views
1. Morning Sex

Re:MCE for me, unfortunately

No troll noticed :)

I was "lucky" to run a very successful BBS starting at age 12. By 14 I was earning enough to move it to a commercial space, basically moving out from home.

I don't know how old you are, but I can give you some advice...

First, if you have even the slightest desire to marry some day, NEVER live with a girlfriend . Ever. Even a fiance. Live together after the wedding.

Why? Cohabitating can create very bad codependencies. You need to test your girlfriend's ability to make it on her own. Don't seriously date girls who live at home. Casual dating is fine with them.

Don't date girls in massive debt. Don't date girls with all guy friends and 1 girlfriend, or girls who say "I hate girls." Don't date girls that your friends don't like or that don't like your friends. Don't date girls who can only have a good time drinking or smoking up.

With that out of the way, it shouldn't be hard to find a girl who can handle your PC "addiction," or in my case, gadget addiction. The "no" girls I listed above will have a propensity towards jealousy -- over friends, family and even toys.

My lady met me when I had 7 PCs at home. Now I only have 1 media PC and 1 PDA, but not because of her. I'm bored with technology. I know she'd love a new notebook at home :)

If you can use your PC skills to strike out on your own (consult), she'll see value. Even better, build a tech bench with a power strip on a timer -- have it force you off between 5pm and 8pm for spouse time!

Re:MCE for me, unfortunately

I was about to agree then I realized that my MythTV box runsEVIL [wikipedia.org].

Re:MCE for me, unfortunately

For me, the main attractions for MythTV (or other Linux based pvr) is 1) I can throw the captur card(s) into my existing server (the one I used for general file storage, net gateway, email, etc...), and 2) I can throw together extremely cheap front-end boxes. A front-end consists of a motherboard with integrated net & video, case, and power supply. It network boots so it doesn't need a drive, and it pulls programming off the backend server so it don't need any capture cards. Total cost for a front-end box, ($30 for a cheap case / power supply, $40 for an integrated motherboard, $40 for a CPU, $20 for memory) is about $130. Could probably get it down a bit cheaper by skimping on the cpu speed and case/power supply quality, or by scavaging parts.

Re:MCE for me, unfortunately -- TRY GB-PVR

Another poster already mentioned Media Portal (an excellent opensource choice for Windows) but there is also GB-PVR over at http://www.gbpvr.com/ [gbpvr.com] which is also free to use however not open source. Its in active development with active forums and lots of plugins available. It supports xmltv as well as zap2it for EPG. I recommend a hardware based encoder (I use Hauppage 350/150) for either.

Both of these fine products are easier to setup than MythTV or Freevo (I tried those too).

Just another alternative to MCE.

Re:Easy to use Windows PVR software: GB-PVR

Jeez, don't click that link. Stupid me, it's: GB-PVR [gbpvr.com]. They've got a nice forum and a dedicated developer. Unfortunately, it's not open source. But neither are any of the commercial offerings.

Re:Windows based? Who cares?

My thoughts exactly.

Why mess around with a Windows-based PVR, when there's Linux and OS X?

I've seen enough Windows-based solutions to be 100% positive that I made the right decision going with a Mac and the EyeTV 500. If I cared about streaming video all over the house, I probably would have looked at getting my fingernails dirty with MythTV on Linux, but I don't so the Mac does a fine job of what I want.

So why even look at whatever "me too" offering the Windows world is currently coming up with? Go for one of the obvious choices and spend your time agonizing over which projector to buy.

Not for Joe Public

The average home user still can't be bothered to set one up though and will thus still want the nice shiny, straight out of the box option

Price Point

Lets see a Tivo with 2 tuners which does it's job damn well 24x7 for $99 or a $1000+ dollar desktop which won't be up 24x7....

Re:Price Point

Most people have a computer powerful enough to handle it in their house, just need a tv tuner and software. True, it wouldn't be the best to use it as a pvr and primary desktop, but it could be a file or webserver.
Also, why wont it be up 24/7? My desktop (and I figure most user's on slashdot) has been up for the past 9 months with 2 days of downtime.

Software PVR killed my Tivo.

Then it killed my iPod too, because it knew too much.

Need a clue here-

I don't have a TV (not since 1989) so TiVO like devices haven't interested me, but I've been keeping a casual track on the goings-on with TiVO, MythTV, and others.

But what confuses me is this: All the "new" features they keep adding, seem like a step backward to me, are these features forced upon you regardless of device you have, or are "1st Gen" model TiVOs and whatnot, valuable property for ignoring all the new stuff?

Re:Need a clue here-

I'm not sure, but this link [theonion.com] will possibly help you out.

Re:Great timing on the topic

The TIVO monthly fee is nothing in comparison to the time and aggravation it would take to set up and maintain a software PVR.

But then again I'm a Mac person, and I value things that just work.

What about MediaPortal?

I see they wanted Windows only, why didn't they include http://mediaportal.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]MediaPortal? It is open source, has the features they want, and runs on XP. Now, if someone (anyone) could include QAM support, I would be all set.

Re:What about MediaPortal?

I'm setting up a PVR currently. MediaPortal is unstable. Highly unstable. It crashes all over the place and doesn't really have a decent recovery mechanism. Looks amazing though.

BeyondTV for portability

The one thing I like about Beyond TV- other than the fact that it runs just fine on obsolete hardware and an obsolete operating system- is that it produces WMV files. I believe MythTV on Linux does so as well- but TIVO fails in this regard. What do WMV files do for me? Give me two hours on the train every day to watch TV, during my commute, on my Windows Mobile IPAQ. That's five half-hour shows (once you skip the commercials) or three hour length shows- and I use the showsqueeze function to put them into a very watchable, 60MB/hr format that fits nicely onto flash cards.

80 GB and then some...

I've got a HD almost full of the invasion of Iraq (I happened to be sick that week) and recorded it all as it was reported.

With the ability, for years, to record straight to my HD I couldn't think of a decent reason to get a TiVo. Heck, I even get TV schedules and can pick and choose what to record, when and it came with my ATI video card. No funny business, telling me what I can and can't record, how long it lasts, what I can do with it, etc. It's all a bunch of MPEG files and plays as good as when I recorded it.

This all subject to change when everything goes HD.

I have my OWN TiVO Killer...

It's called BitTorrent and a DVD Burner. Capture TV only. I pay for my cable. I just don't program my VCR properly.

Tivo Advertising a Household Name

What I really find interesting about Tivo is their advertising model. I don't think I've even seen an actual TiVo ad, but rather product placement in every TV show imaginable. I head it mentioned in Law and Order, The Daily Show and there was an entire segment dedicated to it in Family Guy complete with TiVo sound effects.

Although some of these references may have just been for the hell of it, like on talk shows, when the name comes up in sitcoms and dramas, it's pretty safe to assume the plug was paid for.

Living in the southern US, everyone down here likes to refer to generic products by their brand name. Every soda in the word becomes a "Coke" even if its a Pepsi, every portable mp3 player becomes an "iPod" even if it's an "iPlay" and now ever PVR device is being referred to as a "TiVo" when it's really a Comcast PVR (which is probably made by Motorola or some other company).

TiVo might go away, but the name will stick in every household.

You Can't beat the Cable Companies Offerings...

The standard offerings by cable companies are pretty good. Cost $5 a month for standard definition PVRs or $10 a month for the HD PVRs.

That $10 a month for the HD PVR is practically untouchable. There just isn't any HD PVR solutions that are comparable. I am talking about more than just the over the air HD content that MythTV, et. all. can record. HBO-HD, InHD, TnTHD, Discovery HD, etc.

You can get cable boxes that output HD over firewire for recording purposes, but those firewire devices must respect the "Broadcast Flag" like signal the cable companies have implented. IE, you don't control the content coming from that port.

I am coming from an HD centric view point. SD centric viewers obviously have more choices and options available to them.

Slashdot idiocy

"With TiVo's mounting price hikes..."

What series of price hikes are you referring to? The prices for the Tivos themselves have been consistently dropping, albeit with rebates (and the before rebate prices haven't been going up). The monthly subscription fee has increased just once in the past several years - certainly not at all in the 2+ years I've been a subscriber - and the multi-unit fee has actually DROPPED.

I'm guessing you've never had a Tivo - you just get all your "facts" from Slashdot discussions?

Re:Slashdot idiocy

Tivo sent out a letter [to the tivo box, under messages](at least to NY Customers) that said they were increasing the price by 8.25% because of Sales Tax laws. Also, it's gone from 10.95 to 11.95 to 12.95 over the 5 years i've had it (the subscription price, not the price for the hardware)

Re:Slashdot idiocy

Charging sales tax is not a price hike.

Good free one

GBPVR, found here [gbpvr.com]. It's great, free, and does some really cool features. It's definitely worth checking. I was actually prepared to drop money on a Windows software if I liked it. I don't give two craps about viewing photos, and I don't really listen to much music that isn't in the car or on my own computer. All I looked for was a good PVR that also lets me play downloaded videos/movies/ripped DVDs. I'll give the quick take on the ones I've tried:
1) Meedio/MeedioTV - buggy as hell. And slow. It's also very new, as in a few months (MeedioTV is, at least). Looks nice, though.
2) SageTV - the built-in video browser/viewer isn't that good. I found setting up plugins sort of a pain, and I could never easily get ComSkip to work well. Maybe it was just me. It's also kind of pricey.
3) BeyondTV - no videomedia component at all; you have to separately purchase BeyondMedia. Other than that, I like this one the best. Never really tried messing with any plugins.
4) GBPVR - pretty good as is, much better with the MyVideos plugin and some other plugins that are very painless to install. Downside is none of the skins, even the MCE port, are attractive at all. Also, sometimes there's a lag between hitting a key and getting a response. Few crashes, less than Meedio but more than Sage/BeyondTV (I have roughly one crash every 3 weeks, running 24/7). Have to renew your Zap2It profile every three months to get an EPG, which is kind of annoying. Installing ComSkip a breeze, and it will auto-ship commercials (BTV and Sage require you to press some button during commercials to skip them, presumably for legal reasons; I'm not sure with Meedio).

There you go. There are plenty of other ones, like Media Portal or Myth. I've never tried MCE, though, and most people I talk to like that best if for no other reason than the WAF (wife acceptance factor). Likely, my gf prefers software she's used to, and since I already showed her how GBPVR works, she's happy with it. As long as Desperate Housewives and The Daily Show are recorded, the GBP-vo stays.

What's wrong with Tivo?

It seems like Tivo is becoming hated around here for some reason. Even the review as posted freely admits that nothing, not even Windows Media Center comes (due to large screen picture quality) close to Tivo features and function. When you account for the cost of the other options, you have a real difficult time justifying anything else. A base Tivo unit is now $49, plus a liftime subscription for $299 (total cost of $348). The software and PC and tuner card(s) for the other options will cost at least twice that. There is nothing to install with Tivo short of screwing the cable in and plugging in the network, nothing to check compatability with. It's upgradable for those who like to tinker. The hacks, that give skip functionality and such, can be found from links off the Tivo site itself, and a simpleton can run them from the remote and have worked from day one and still work today. I love to put together solutions myself, but until the software comes on par with Tivo functionality and pricing, I can't justify changing. I would gain nothing and lose quality, functionality and money.