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Konqueror Passes the Acid2 Test Too

Posted by CowboyNeal on Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:39 AM
from the anything-you-can-do dept.
An anonymous reader writes "A month after Safari , and after a lot of controversy, Allan Sandfeld Jensen announced today that Konqueror passes the Acid2 test too. Half of the patches could be merged from Apple's Webcore, the rest needed to be rewritten from scratch."

Related Stories

[+] IT: First Look At the ACID3 Browser Test 104 comments
ddanier writes "Now that all major browsers have mastered the ACID2 test (at least in some preview versions), work on ACID3 has begun. The new test will focus on ECMAScript, DOM Level 3, Media Queries, and data: URLs. 100 tests will be put into functions each returning either true or false depending on the result of the test. The current preview of ACID3 is still missing 16 tests."
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  • Acid2 (Score:3, Insightful)

    by BibelBiber (557179) on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:41AM (#12723562) Journal
    Sorry, dont know what that is. Could someone post a link...
    • Re:Acid2 (Score:5, Funny)

      by minionman (643063) on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:46AM (#12723593)
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Acid2 by minionman (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @10:54AM
        • Re:Acid2 by tepples (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:02AM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
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    • Re:Acid2 (Score:5, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:51AM (#12723634)
      http://www.webstandards.org/act/acid2/ [webstandards.org]

      basically it's a rigorous test that ensures that a browser has all the goodies that web developers have been lusting after forever.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Acid2 by tehshen (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:17AM
        • Re:Acid2 (Score:4, Interesting)

          by bunratty (545641) on Saturday June 04 2005, @11:36AM (#12723930)
          Of course those features won't be used on web pages until web browsers implement them. That's the whole purpose of Acid2 -- to break the chicken-and-egg deadlock. Web developers don't use these features because web browsers don't support them, and web browsers don't bother supporting them because web developers don't use them.

          When all popular web browsers do a decent job of rendering Acid2, web developers can use the features that have been promised for years, but have never been delivered by browser makers. Having Safari and Konqueror display Acid2 correctly gives the other browser manufacturers added incentive to implement the needed CSS2 features.

          [ Parent ]
          • Re:Acid2 (Score:4, Insightful)

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 04 2005, @12:22PM (#12724198)
            When IE does a decent job web developers can use the features that have been promised for years. It is IE that is holding back so many nice CSS features that are supported else where.
            [ Parent ]
            • Re:Acid2 by andalay (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @10:08PM
          • Re:Acid2 by AstroDrabb (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @02:45PM
            • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
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        • Re:Acid2 by croddy (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @12:23PM
          • Re:Acid2 by Anonymous Luddite (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @12:40PM
          • Re:Acid2 by Anonymovs Coward (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @02:41PM
            • Re:Acid2 by Penumbra (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @07:24PM
          • Re:Acid2 by Momo_CCCP (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @04:36PM
            • Also... by leonbrooks (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @07:16PM
              • Re:Also... by eugene ts wong (Score:1) Sunday June 05 2005, @01:20AM
      • Re:Acid2 by WiKKeSH (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:19AM
        • +1 Insightful, that parent poster by leonbrooks (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:49AM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Re:Acid2 (Score:5, Informative)

          by JimDabell (42870) on Saturday June 04 2005, @12:21PM (#12724194) Homepage

          It does both. I've seen this misconception stated a few times now, it's just wrong.

          The Acid test is not just a test for error handling. Error handling is something that is defined by the CSS 2.1 specification (and earlier specifications). In order to test full CSS compliance, they need to include errors as part of the test. This does not mean that all the test does is error handling, merely that it is one of the things the test does.

          [ Parent ]
          • Re:Acid2 by WiKKeSH (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @02:20PM
            • Re:Acid2 by JimDabell (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @02:41PM
      • Re:Acid2 by JohnsonWax (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @01:20PM
      • Re:Acid2 by ubernostrum (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @07:37PM
      • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Acid2 (Score:5, Funny)

      by Timesprout (579035) on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:52AM (#12723645)
      Its the exciting sequel to Acid1, The Dissolving. In the sequel the hero struggles valiantly with acid indigestion as he battles to save the world.
      [ Parent ]
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  • Kick to the pants. (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:42AM (#12723564)
    "Allan Sandfeld Jensen announced today that Konqueror passes the Acid2 test too. Half of the patches could be merged from Apple's Webcore, the rest needed to be rewritten from scratch.""

    It's amazing what people can do when sufficiently motivated.
    • Re:Kick to the pants. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by dmaxwell (43234) on Saturday June 04 2005, @11:15AM (#12723790)
      "Allan Sandfeld Jensen announced today that Konqueror passes the Acid2 test too. Half of the patches could be merged from Apple's Webcore, the rest needed to be rewritten from scratch.""

      It's amazing what people can do when sufficiently motivated.


      THIS sort of thing is EXACTLY what the khtml devs were complaining about. Yes, Apple does the bare minimum the LGPL requires with Webcore but the khtml devs accepted that.

      The point these guys have been trying to get across over and over and over and over (repeat several thousand times for the extra dense) is that when Webcore can do something that khtml cannot IT IS NOT LAZINESS ON THE PART OF THE KHTML DEVELOPERS. WEBCORE CODE CANNOT JUST BE DROPPED INTO THE KHTML TREE. Webcore directly uses OS X features. That is one problem. The code bombs Apple drops periodically have inadequate documentation as to why some changes were made and not others.

      Webcore at this point is a khtml fork that is about two years old. The khtml devs might as well be asked to merge Gecko code for all of the similarity they have at this point.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Kick to the pants. by bunratty (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:49AM
      • stacking the deck (Score:5, Insightful)

        by SuperBanana (662181) on Saturday June 04 2005, @12:19PM (#12724181)
        THIS sort of thing is EXACTLY what the khtml devs were complaining about. Yes, Apple does the bare minimum the LGPL requires with Webcore but the khtml devs accepted that.

        Actually, if you read the email exchanges, you see Apple engineers discussed the patch tarballs and actively assisted khtml developers when they asked for reasonable things (ie, not access to internal Apple revision control systems). KHTML devs did not reveal this (to my knowledge) in their "open letter" this cooperation, which is quite a bit more than the LGPL. The LGPL requires you make the patches available- that's it. Apple sent them, discussed them, provided help interpreting them, did work by proxy, etc.

        This is a logical fallacy called "fallacy by omission", and the specific technique employed was called "Stacking the Deck".

        What becomes apparent is that the KHTML team doesn't like that Apple is doing everything they should be, getting commended for it, and that the work (supposedly) wasn't useful to them (we see now that's not the case, as half the patches were easily applied).

        If integrating half of the patches only took a month or two, guess what- it wasn't nearly as impossible as the KHTML team made it out to be, and the code wasn't nearly as useless as they portrayed it to be.

        WEBCORE CODE CANNOT JUST BE DROPPED INTO THE KHTML TREE. Webcore directly uses OS X features. That is one problem. The code bombs Apple drops periodically have inadequate documentation as to why some changes were made and not others.

        The second is irrelevant because of the first; they're also unrelated, though you imply them to be compounded. It's not Apple's responsibility to turn over Webcore, or convert the code to use something besides Webcore. They're not allowed to sit on that code, they HAVE to provide it.

        Second, they've provided several of what you've referred to as "code bombs", which is one step ahead of a company that would just provide them with ONE tarball; they're sharing work progressively, and have an active dialog with the khtml team.

        Webcore at this point is a khtml fork that is about two years old.

        And your point would be what? The LGPL doesn't say "help integrate old code". It doesn't say, "only fork recent code", or "don't fork code at all". It doesn't say "provide changelogs". It doesn't say "provide the project coders with access to your internal revision control systems and corporate network". It doesn't say ANY of that! EVER! PERIOD!

        I'm sorry, but this whole thing has left me very embarrassed for the open-source community, and left me with a very bad taste in my mouth. Apple IS one of the better companies as far as contributing to open-source, they've brought open-source technologies to more desktops than anyone else, they've come up with some truly unique technology which they've provided source for- and they still get kicked in the teeth.

        A lot of companies are looking at how Apple was treated, and thinking, "geez, Apple did more than just send tarballs, and they got pretty beat up for it." Question: do you think this will encourage or discourage companies to do work on open-source projects?

        [ Parent ]
        • Re:stacking the deck (Score:4, Informative)

          by dmaxwell (43234) on Saturday June 04 2005, @12:59PM (#12724421)
          All this stuff about "Apple did this and the khtml guys did that" is utterly irrelavent to the point I and the khtml devs were trying to make.

          The khtml devs beef is with fanbois who think that khtml should have new Webcore features an hour or two after Webcore gets them. When the khtml people try to explain why matters are bit more difficult than that then the fanbois throw around terms like "lazy", "unresponsive", and "kick in the pants".

          Apple's behaivor has zero to do with the point I was trying to make.
          [ Parent ]
          • point was made poorly; still stacked the deck too by SuperBanana (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @01:12PM
          • Re:stacking the deck (Score:4, Informative)

            by klui (457783) on Saturday June 04 2005, @05:49PM (#12725870)
            Apple's behaivor has zero to do with the point I was trying to make.
            On the contrary, your use of "does the bare minimum," and "inadequate documentation" covertly implies that Apple's behavior is the problem. After observing this issue so far, I think Apple has done a lot for KHTML and the OSS community. The KHTML team finally took the code Apple gave them to heart and integrated a good portion back.
            [ Parent ]
        • Re:stacking the deck (Score:4, Informative)

          by labratuk (204918) on Saturday June 04 2005, @02:37PM (#12724901)
          What becomes apparent is that the KHTML team doesn't like that Apple is doing everything they should be, getting commended for it

          That's not apparent at all. You're simply showing that you don't read the kde dev's blogs and hope people reading this won't bother either and just take your word for it.
          If integrating half of the patches only took a month or two, guess what- it wasn't nearly as impossible as the KHTML team made it out to be, and the code wasn't nearly as useless as they portrayed it to be.

          What? How do you know how hard these people have been working over the last two months? You really sound like a manager type to me. These people mostly do this work in their spare time. They have real jobs too. They don't work on this 9-5. Saying "it only took a team of x y months to do it" is completely meaningless.
          Second, they've provided several of what you've referred to as "code bombs", which is one step ahead of a company that would just provide them with ONE tarball; they're sharing work progressively, and have an active dialog with the khtml team.

          Hahaha.

          Read that sentence again and tell me it's not the absolute definition of an apologist talking.
          And your point would be what? The LGPL doesn't say "help integrate old code". It doesn't say, "only fork recent code", or "don't fork code at all". It doesn't say "provide changelogs". It doesn't say "provide the project coders with access to your internal revision control systems and corporate network". It doesn't say ANY of that! EVER! PERIOD!

          And nobody has ever said that it does. Only people like you trying to craft strawman attacks have ever brought this up. The grandparent doesn't say this, the KDE devs don't say this.
          I'm sorry, but this whole thing has left me very embarrassed for the open-source community, and left me with a very bad taste in my mouth. Apple IS one of the better companies as far as contributing to open-source, they've brought open-source technologies to more desktops than anyone else, they've come up with some truly unique technology which they've provided source for- and they still get kicked in the teeth.

          First of all: hahaha

          Second of all: if they are getting kicked in the teeth, it's not the kde devs doing the kicking. The original blog post was aimed at clueless fanboy posters posting things.. not unlike what you've just posted. NOT at Apple. This one blog post was then blown out of all proportion by slashdot and people making strawman statements to try and spread their propoganda.

          Ironic, no?
          [ Parent ]
        • Re:stacking the deck by shaitand (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @03:52PM
        • Re:stacking the deck by StormReaver (Score:3) Saturday June 04 2005, @04:33PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Kick to the pants. by ajs (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @12:33PM
      • Re:Kick to the pants. (Score:5, Informative)

        by Anonymous Froward (695647) on Saturday June 04 2005, @12:52PM (#12724383)
        You were close, but you missed the point of konq guy (see see this post [kdedevelopers.org]) when you began talking about the "problems" of Webcore code. The konq guy's message was more or less like this as far as I can see:

        When Konqueror doesn't follow Safari's new feature within 4 hours, don't blame us. When Konqueror finally follows Safari's feature list, don't automatically praise Apple, either.

        It's not like Apple is giving out some drop-in patch, but that's OK. That's their right. Sometimes we take their patch, but sometimes we write things from scratch. When we'll use Apple's code, we'll be slow because of the way they produce their patch, not because we're lazy.

        Apple is OK for me, but please stop bashing our laziness while praising opensource-friendliness of Apple. That hurts.

        [ Parent ]
      • You are forgetting what "free means . . . by werdna (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @02:29PM
      • by werdna (39029) on Saturday June 04 2005, @02:39PM (#12724910) Homepage Journal
        Apple does the bare minimum the LGPL requires with Webcore but the khtml devs accepted that.

        No, let's be clear. Apple does ALL AND EVERYTHING that the LGPL requires. Implicit in your statement is the suggestion that free software can be free if it includes tacit, implied promises not to fork and to satisfy its authors with all its changes. That suggestion is flagrantly inconsistent with the notion of free software, in any sense.

        Fundamental to the notion of free software is that its authors cannot limit the rights of others to access and modify the software. Forking is not a problem with free software, it is a feature.

        Ordinarily forking *is* a problem for the community, when the initial developers are adequately satsifying the needs of the community as a whole and working well with others. But this is not always the case. Sometimes politics, legitimate and petty, and aesthetics, legitimate and ludicrous, gets in the way of good agile development. When that happens, the community may well be better served by a fork.

        Apple and the Konqueror clan were not working well together, but both had important and significant constituencies to serve. It was either going to work or not, but neither Apple nor the clan "owned" this free software. In its feral state, BOTH were free to decide by what methodology development of their respective trees will proceed, what features the code will have and what will be the quality of that code.

        Darwin (no pun intended) takes care of the rest.

        Evolution by forking is not the preferable state of nature, but it happens when it needs to happen. And people will abandon what is useless and use what is important.

        If, someday, there is actually a need to harmonize this code, it will be harmonized. Otherwise, it may well be for the best there was a fork. The problem that it is difficult to harmonize advances in one tree into another is salient, but it is not due to any malfeasance of anybody. Apple WAS FREE to do what it would with the code. And glory be for that... So, too, is the Konqueror clan, and glory be for that.

        The remaining whines in the message are puerile. Don't like the doco or the coding style? Its free software, change it. Don't like the way others are working on the code? No problem, ignore them, and use the free software of the existing code. Got a feature you need? Great. Code it up. Don't want to? No problem, but why are you posting your gripes HERE?

        Apple has a free software realationship with the K-clan. K-clan could work with them or not, and vice-versa. If it doesn't work out, so be it. The code is out there. It was built the way it was built, and people may use it or not. Nobody has a gripe, because it is free software -- if you don't like it -- change it.
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:Kick to the pants. by KillerDeathRobot (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @03:18PM
      • No-win situation by ubernostrum (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @07:56PM
    • Let's review by Phong (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @01:16PM
    • Re:Kick to the pants. by Mornelithe (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @01:34PM
    • Re:Kick to the pants. by fuck nwbvt (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:10AM
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  • Glad to see it... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by jsight (8987) on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:44AM (#12723583) Homepage
    I for one am very glad that the Gecko/Mozill engine is not our only choice in free software based renderers. There is some security in seeing that we have at least two projects with excellent browsers available for the community.

    Congrats Konqueror team!

    I wonder if anyone is working on a Windows port of this?
  • Konqueror (Score:2, Redundant)

    by bcmm (768152) on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:45AM (#12723587)
    I have been using Konqueror a bit more that usual recently because it loads quicker that Firefox, and I still find myself switching to Fx for pages that render wrong
    • IE quirks by MarkByers (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:01AM
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    • Re:Konqueror by bogaboga (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:03AM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Konqueror by tepples (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:20AM
    • Odd by rsilvergun (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:30AM
      • Re:Odd by SirTalon42 (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:34AM
        • Re:Odd by rsilvergun (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:48AM
      • Re:Odd by mrchaotica (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @03:29PM
        • Re:Odd by Burz (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @10:55PM
    • Re:Konqueror by Espectr0 (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:43AM
      • IW4M by leonbrooks (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:59AM
      • Re:Konqueror by nutshell42 (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @03:21PM
      • Re:Konqueror by Phexro (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @03:55PM
      • Re:Konqueror by Espectr0 (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @12:43PM
      • Re:Konqueror by Cereal Box (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @03:53PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Konqueror by m50d (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @12:44PM
    • Re:Strange by lubricated (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:48AM
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  • It worked out well for everyone (Score:3, Insightful)

    by MarkByers (770551) on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:47AM (#12723607) Homepage Journal
    Both Safari and Konqueror have improved because of Open Source. Even though the two teams worked independently, they benefited from having access to the other's code.

    Does it really matter what Apple's motivations were? The end result is that Open Source development has helped both products.
    • Re:It worked out well for everyone (Score:5, Insightful)

      by IamTheRealMike (537420) on Saturday June 04 2005, @11:14AM (#12723782) Homepage
      Even though the two teams worked independently, they benefited from having access to the other's code.

      The Konqueror team don't have access to the Safari code, at least not in a form they can use. Apple do have access to the KHTML code in a usable form though, the KDE guys make sure it's available in the right way for everybody.

      Does it really matter what Apple's motivations were? The end result is that Open Source development has helped both products.

      Clearly it does matter what their motivations are, this always matters. It means in future open source projects will know what's coming when Apple decide to get "involved".

      As to whether it helped both products, well of that I'm sceptical. A key KDE developer has very publically burnt out on KHTML because of Apples actions and worse, because of the community of Apple fanboys who switched the blame around onto the KDE people. After starting out optimistic he's now bitter. I'd say that's a pretty huge loss.

      Meanwhile, Apple got the code to a rendering engine for free and gave back little to nothing. It's like TransGaming all over again.

      [ Parent ]
      • Disconnect by SuperKendall (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:23AM
      • Re:It worked out well for everyone by fuck nwbvt (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:31AM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:It worked out well for everyone by leonmergen (Score:3) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:32AM
      • Re:It worked out well for everyone by MarkByers (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:34AM
      • Re:It worked out well for everyone by ajs (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @12:24PM
      • stop distorting facts (Score:4, Insightful)

        by SuperBanana (662181) on Saturday June 04 2005, @12:25PM (#12724227)
        The Konqueror team don't have access to the Safari code, at least not in a form they can use.

        Actions speak otherwise- half the patches integrated according to the article.

        It means in future open source projects will know what's coming when Apple decide to get "involved".

        Yes. They can expect to get regular tarballs, participation of senior team leaders, active dialog on public mailing lists, and assistance of Apple engineers in interpreting the tarballs.

        (No, seriously. Go read the archives and look at the discussion that follows when Apple sends in a code base. The "burnt out guy" whines. Another developer or two actually get to work and look at the code, start talking to Apple engineers, etc. An Apple engineer says "let me take a look at that" and a little bit later, comes back as promised with an answer and help.)

        After starting out optimistic he's now bitter.

        Optimistic is a funny word. He seemed under the impression that Apple was obligated to provide changelogs, access to internal revision control systems, etc. He also got upset when he realized that Apple had forked code. It sounds like he had unreasonable expectations, and when Apple said "I'm sorry, we can't do that" or "I'm sorry, we're not allowed to do that", he threw a hissy fit.

        The Konqueror developer in question also used a logical fallacy called "Stacking the deck", a kind of fallacy-by-omission. He did not discuss any of Apple's assistance provided to developers on the mailing list, and repeatedly asserted that Apple was meeting "minimum" requirements of the LGPL, when in fact Apple was doing more.

        That is why he got burned. Not because of actions on Apple's part- and your insinuation that Apple is to blame for the actions of its "Apple fanboys" is absurd. You're distracting from the core issue- that the developer used fallacies to promote his version of the facts. Sadly, few people bothered to actually read the mailing list exchanges.

        Apple got the code to a rendering engine for free and gave back little to nothing

        Again, you're distorting facts. Apple gave back all the code it was obligated to, and participated in an active dialog. If half of Apple's patches were integrated within less than a few months, that's a lot more than "little to nothing". Question- how long would it have taken the KHTML developers to become Acid2 compliant without the contributions by Apple? And if the patches were so worthless, why did they "waste" time and effort if writing their own stuff from scratch would have been more productive, as was implied if not outright stated by khtml developers?

        [ Parent ]
        • Re:stop distorting facts (Score:5, Informative)

          by bluGill (862) on Saturday June 04 2005, @12:45PM (#12724344)

          The developer in question was not mad at Apple per say, they were doing what was required. He was mad at people thinking Apple was doing something useful for KDE/khtml. Apple was not making things useful for KDE, but they were fullfilling all their obligations.

          Once he spoke against those non-Apple, non-KDE people, those people tried to deflect the blame to Apple. Apple to their credit realized how the publicity was hurting them and changed their ways.

          Once again, the KDE devs were not mad at Apple. They were disgusted because of being unable to get something useful, but not mad. They were mad at people who thought without checking that Apple was doing something useful.

          [ Parent ]
        • Re:stop distorting facts by kupci (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @07:31PM
      • Re:It worked out well for everyone by WindBourne (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @01:36PM
      • Re:It worked out well for everyone by SideshowBob (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @01:47PM
      • Re:It worked out well for everyone by annodomini (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @03:27PM
      • Re:It worked out well for everyone by IamTheRealMike (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @12:11PM
      • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:It worked out well for everyone by matt me (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @12:59PM
  • IE, when? (Score:5, Funny)

    by chrysalis (50680) on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:47AM (#12723612) Homepage
    Now we are waiting for IE to support the ACID2 test.

    And only then, we could design web sites using today's CSS features. Oh, not today's, 5 years ago's but it will still be a revolution.
    • Re:IE, when? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by rdc_uk (792215) on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:56AM (#12723676)
      Actually, given the nature of Acid2, it would only allow us to code _broken_ css on these browsers, and have it break _correctly_.

      Acid2 tests a lot of corner-case mis-constructions of CSS, and tests that the browser handles the cock-up in the prescribed manner. It doesn't actually test that _correct_ CSS is handled correctly.

      Its a good test, but its NOT a full CSS compliance test.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:IE, when? (Score:4, Informative)

        by zxSpectrum (129457) on Saturday June 04 2005, @11:11AM (#12723769) Homepage Journal
        So, then I presume you can point out each and every aspect of Acid2 that violates CSS 2.1.

        We'll also expect you to hold your breath doing this excercise on a live webcam, so we can see you turn blue in the face.

        The acid2 test consists of perfectly valid CSS2.1, HTML 4.01, SGML, RFC 2396 and RFC 2397. It tests some basic, and some not-so-basic aspects of these specs.
        [ Parent ]
        • Re:IE, when? by zxSpectrum (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:13AM
        • Re:IE, when? (Score:4, Informative)

          by JimDabell (42870) on Saturday June 04 2005, @12:15PM (#12724159) Homepage

          CSS 2.1 is not yet a w3c recommendation, only a candidate Browsers than conform to it rather than CSS 2.0 are broken.

          This is incorrect.

          The W3C implemented a change in procedure between the times CSS 2.0 and CSS 2.1 were published. What used to be called recommendations are now only candidate recommendations until they are widely implemented.

          Ian Hickson, who is on the CSS working group and employed by Opera, says this [hixie.ch]:

          CSS2.1 is in CR, which is the call for implementations stage. It is appropriate for implementors to implement CSS2.1. It is not a draft.

          (Note that CSS2.1 and CSS2 are at the same state in the W3C process -- they are both at the "call for implementations" stage. The difference is that the name of that stage changed between 1998 and 2004. What used to be called "REC" or "Recommendation" is now called "CR" or "Candidate Recommendation". The new stage currently called "Recommendation", which indicates that the specification has reached a very high level of implementation maturity, didn't exist back in 1998.)

          CSS2.1 is what CSS implementations should be using as reference if they want to implement CSS level 2.

          [ Parent ]
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:IE, when? by anethema (Score:3) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:31AM
        • Re:IE, when? by Draknek (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:51AM
        • Re:IE, when? by Big Mark (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @12:05PM
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      • Re:IE, when? by JimDabell (Score:3) Saturday June 04 2005, @02:39PM
        • Re:IE, when? by putaro (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @06:22PM
        • Re:IE, when? by MrHanky (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @06:28PM
    • Re:IE, when? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:13AM
    • Write it anyway... by leonbrooks (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @12:06PM
    • Re:IE, when? by Refrag (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @12:14PM
    • Slashdot moderation madness by presroi (Score:3) Saturday June 04 2005, @12:16PM
    • One flew over Redmond. by argent (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @02:21PM
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  • Only a month behind (Score:2, Insightful)

    by The Original Yama (454111) on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:51AM (#12723638) Homepage
    I think it's great that the KHTML team have managed to pass the ACID2 test only a month behind Apple. However, I am skeptical if this kind of pace can be continued in the future. Firstly, it looks like the KHTML developers might have been working harder than usual just to pass the test so that they wouldn't lose face. As the two code bases diverge (they only merged half of Apple's patches) it will become increasingly difficult for the KHTML guys to keep up. Webcore is effectively a fork, and there's a diminishing degree to which code can be shared between the fork and the original.

    Unless KHTML receives extra resources (in money, developers, etc.), I fear that they may be left behind Mozilla and Webcore.
  • iCab (Score:1)

    by thomasdeniau (456204) on Saturday June 04 2005, @11:02AM (#12723718) Homepage
    They claim that Konqueror is the second browser to pass the Acid2 test, but in fact iCab (on Mac OS X) was second :

    http://frederic.bezies.free.fr/blog/index.php?2005 /05/22/24-acid2-icab-%20le-premier-vainqueur [bezies.free.fr]

    way to go OS X browsers :-)
    • Re:iCab by jmelloy (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:37AM
    • Re:iCab by SirTalon42 (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:42AM
      • Re:iCab by murr (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @11:55AM
        • Re:iCab by Ford Prefect (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @12:19PM
          • Re:iCab by murr (Score:2) Sunday June 05 2005, @12:02AM
        • Re:iCab by thomasdeniau (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @02:10PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:iCab by yabos (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @12:15PM
    • The answer to your question is... by leonbrooks (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @12:16PM
    • Re:iCab by GarfBond (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @12:26PM
      • Re:iCab by Lars T. (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @02:12PM
    • Re:iCab by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @03:18PM
      • Re:iCab by simbiont (Score:1) Sunday June 05 2005, @07:32AM
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    • Re:iCab by simbiont (Score:1) Sunday June 05 2005, @07:18AM
      • Re:iCab by simbiont (Score:1) Monday June 06 2005, @05:47AM
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  • by osho_gg (652984) on Saturday June 04 2005, @11:08AM (#12723749)
    My Firefox 1.0.4 does not pass it. It still works just fine on most sites that I visit.

    I wonder how meaningful the Acid2 test really is?

    Osho

  • Summary of article (Score:1)

    by 823723423 (826403) on Saturday June 04 2005, @11:09AM (#12723752)
    Acid2 test passed Load balancing failed
  • That's easy (Score:5, Funny)

    by paul248 (536459) on Saturday June 04 2005, @11:18AM (#12723807) Homepage
    Of course, the final patch looked something like this:
    if (!strcmp(url, "http://www.webstandards.org/act/acid2/test.html" )) loadUrl("reference.html");
  • Opera will be next me thinks (Score:4, Interesting)

    by baadger (764884) on Saturday June 04 2005, @11:46AM (#12723991)
    Opera is making excellent progress with Acid2 [opera.com]. Only a few more lines to go. They are treading softly with regression testing.
  • Safari does what? (Score:2)

    by localman (111171) on Saturday June 04 2005, @12:10PM (#12724124) Homepage
    I'm using Safari Version 2.0 (412) right now on Tiger (10.4.1) and the test does not render correctly. Is this some unreleased version they're talking about?
  • Open KHTML Info Page Launched (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Karma Sucks (127136) on Saturday June 04 2005, @12:14PM (#12724142)
    In related news: In an effort to open up their development process the developers of the Konqueror components KHTML, KJS and KSVG have launched the open Web portal KHTML.info [khtml.info]. By providing a central contact point and source of information in form of an open Wiki the developers want to promote their work and embrace users and developers from both Open Source as well as commercial environments.
  • I wonder... (Score:2, Funny)

    by PMOnoTo (854402) on Saturday June 04 2005, @12:31PM (#12724266) Homepage
    when my favorite browser, lynx, will pass the Acid2 test?
    • Re:I wonder... by Bunyip Redgum (Score:1) Saturday June 04 2005, @06:22PM
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  • Well done! (Score:1)

    by lvanblerk (797119) on Saturday June 04 2005, @12:38PM (#12724302)
    A big well done to the Konqueror team and thanks for all the efforts you put in! Double thumbs up :D
  • Good for everyone (Score:2)

    by SideshowBob (82333) on Saturday June 04 2005, @01:30PM (#12724592)
    I'm happy about this. My hope is that the winner of Browser Wars 2 won't actually be a browser, it will hopefully be standards. When there are a plethora of appealing standards compliant browsers to choose from, site designers will be forced to stick to standards.

    I'm not going to get into the politics of Safari vs. KHTML. It matters (to me) less how standards compliance was achieved than that it was.
  • by rev0102 (701177) on Saturday June 04 2005, @02:47PM (#12724958)
    The fact that a browser can display broken css is nice, but isn't displaying proper CSS properly a bit more important?
  • by TCaM (308943) on Saturday June 04 2005, @03:23PM (#12725114) Homepage
    will be the one that has a production release that passes, not some alpha code that passes.
  • Good show! (Score:2)

    by Rydian (29123) on Saturday June 04 2005, @03:48PM (#12725232)
    3 cheers for the KDE team stepping up and making this happen!

    Now hopefully Apple pulls the CVS'd version of KHTML, and bases their next release of Safari off if it, and the cycle can continue.
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • KHTML wiki (Score:2)

    by wikinerd (809585) <nsk@NOSpaM.karastathis.org> on Saturday June 04 2005, @04:14PM (#12725384) Homepage Journal
    If you are willing to help make Konqueror and KHTML better, you should visit the newKHTML wiki [khtml.info].
  • Firefox (Score:1)

    by daviq (888445) on Saturday June 04 2005, @05:24PM (#12725736)
    All that is left to pass the test is Firefox...IE doesn't have a chance.
  • Re:Any more news on GPL violating? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by statusbar (314703) <jeffk@statusbar.com> on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:46AM (#12723595) Homepage Journal
    There were never any gpl violation wrt khtml.

    Konqueror guys didn't like the patches from apple.

    Looks like they could handle these patches, though! good for them.

    jeff
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:Editors! Context! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by b00m3rang (682108) * on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:49AM (#12723623)
    What's C? What's RSA? What's a race condition? It isn't "News for people who are too lasy to learn things on their own", now is it?
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:Editors! Context! (Score:4, Informative)

    by MarkByers (770551) on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:52AM (#12723640) Homepage Journal
    This has been featured on Slashdot before [slashdot.org]. The Acid 2 test is a web browser standards compliancy test, and it applies to all web browsers not just Konqueror and Safari. These are just the first two that can pass the test. The others will hopefully follow later.

    Take the Acid 2 Test [webstandards.org].
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:Editors! Context! (Score:2, Informative)

    by jonathan_ingram (30440) on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:52AM (#12723643) Homepage
    Acid2 is a test page, written to help browser vendors ensure proper support for web standards in their products. [webstandards.org]

    Recently, one of the Safari developers announced [mozillazine.org] that Safari (the HTML parsing part of which is Webcore, which is derived from KDE's KHTML component) now passed the Acid 2 test. This led to a lot of comment, on Slashdot and elsewhere, asking when Konqueror (KDE's web browser) would pass Acid 2. This led to a post by a KDE developer saying that Webcore and KHTML had diverged significantly, and this is turn led to a lot of badly informed comment (mostly on Slashdot), slagging of KDE, Apple, or both.

    Happily KDE and Apple seem to be working relatively well together, and this current announcement indicates that the KHTML developers have worked through all Apple's Webcore patches related to Acid 2, using the ones they can, and rewriting the ones they can't. Konqueror now becomes the second mainstream browser to pass the Acid 2 test.
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:Any more news on GPL violating? (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:53AM (#12723650)
    As Hyatt's blog post noted, the Acid2 code is not yet in a released version of Safari. You can either (a) patch and recompile WebKit/WebCore yourself or (b) wait for the next update of Safari, which Apple and Hyatt have said will be Real Soon Now.
    [ Parent ]
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  • by GNUALMAFUERTE (697061) <almafuerte.gmail@com> on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:55AM (#12723663)
    This is a site for geeks, and most readers are regular readers.

    The Acid2 test is not something specific to konqueror, it's a test for browsers in general, it has been covered here a lot lately, just search, or read the site more often.

    Safari is based on Konqueror, Apple publishes it modifications of Safari and people tries to backport the useful ones to Konqueror. There has been troubles about this, since apple does a few things that make it hard to reuse the code, again, you are either trolling, or you really don't read slashdot, has been covered before, ___lots___.

    Here goes the acid2 information: http://fuckinggoogleit.com/search.pl?query=acid2 [fuckinggoogleit.com]
    [ Parent ]
  • by zorander (85178) on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:55AM (#12723666) Homepage Journal
    This site is of a technical nature and the articles may assume some technical knowledge. Any web developer who doesn't have his head stuck in a hole in the ground knows what Acid2 is and why it's important. (This embedded systems developer does, too--read a technical blog sometime, you might learn something. The 37signals folks have good ones. Try them first).

    Slashdot has extensively covered the apple patches/khtml/webcore controversy and shouldn't have to reexplain it every time something tangentially related has come up. Did you search the archives? Google? Seriously, you can't present technical information without expecting the reader to have some background information. The abstract would be 500 words long if they took the time to explain all of that. Whether that would be good or not is up for debate, but it's not what slashdot has ever done.

    Acid2 and is no more relevant to konqueror than to firefox or ie. Why should konqueror people understand it any more? Stop talking out of your ass and look it up.
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:Any more news on GPL violating? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by The Original Yama (454111) on Saturday June 04 2005, @10:56AM (#12723678) Homepage
    There isn't any violation, technically, but IMHO the spirit of the GPL has been broken. Of course, spirit isnt legally defensible. Apple released patches in large gobs instead of in easily digestible chunks, and their code comments made many references to bugs in the internal Apple bug database (which isn't available to the KHTML team). They also made many Mac OS specific (KDE incompatible) changes and they disallowed CVS access.
    [ Parent ]
  • by Space cowboy (13680) * on Saturday June 04 2005, @11:03AM (#12723723) Journal

    *Sigh* Just because you want more from (whoever, Apple in this case), it doesn't give you the right to demand more than is required by the terms of any given contract or licence. It certainly doesn't give you the right to accuse them of breaking those terms when you're fully aware that they haven't.

    I'm assuming you're fully aware because of the enormous hoo-haa that developed when the story first broke... No-one (not Apple (!), not the KHTML team, not anyone even remotely informed) claimed that the licence terms were being broken. The claim was that Apple ought to have been complying more with the spirit of the licence than the letter of it.

    Frankly I think it cheapens the GPL when it's abused as in the OP's subject. The standard response to companies who *do* abuse it is that they ought to have read the licence and not assumed they could just take and not give. The standard response to people who, like Oliver Twist, say "but I want more" ought to be in the same vein - the GPL is what it is and it's a damn fine licence. Use it, don't abuse it.

    Simon.

    [ Parent ]
  • by fuck nwbvt (836920) on Saturday June 04 2005, @11:20AM (#12723830) Journal
    Maybe you'd be more comfortable reading CNN or Yahoo! News.
    [ Parent ]
  • shouldn't Apple be doing more?

    Doing more then what? By what people can tell, most of the dispute is because the Safari/WebCore and the Konquer people are doing different things with the code and also use different source managment systems. Apple uses one that most of the OS X devs use. And that is completly different then the one the KDE folks use.

    Thus far, most of the complaints has been "Apple isn't doing it our way." Apple shot back with "Use WebCore, we will even show you how and assist on making it multiplatform", but that got shot down by the K folks. The issue isn't just with one side, it's with both using their normal work flows and expecting the other side to change everything.

    Apple doesn't ship Konquer in their OS and has no plans to. KDE has no plans to use WebCore. So diversity issues are going to happen, and either side can just live with it, or do something about it. But it seems the KDE folks would just rather sit and whine about how Apple isn't doing things their way.

    Maybe I missed it, but if you can point out to me where in the GPL it says you must bend over backwards to make a group of people happy, I'll conclude Apple is doing something wrong. Until then, I'll file this under the "people are never happy" section, and be one of the few to appreciate what Apple is doing to help OSS, and to promote the adoption of Unix in many areas. Sure, it's not the Linux way of things, but Apple is doing a hell of a lot better then say Sun with Solaris or HP with Tru64/HPUX to push the Unix platform across all spaces.
    [ Parent ]
    • Re:Any more news on GPL violating? by m50d (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @01:05PM
      • Re:Any more news on GPL violating? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by SideshowBob (82333) on Saturday June 04 2005, @02:12PM (#12724790)
        So if the KDE people say that they want every file and directory in WebCore to start with the letter 'K', does Apple have to comply with that?

        What if the KDE developers say that the preferred form is on a 160GB SCSI drive installed in a dual G5 with a 30" Cinema display attached to it, does Apple have to comply with THAT?

        I think that people may be taking those words from the GPL a little too far. To me, what they mean is that if I get a binary, I need to get the source required to recreate that binary.
        [ Parent ]
    • Re:Any more news on GPL violating? by pherthyl (Score:2) Saturday June 04 2005, @02:01PM
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  • by fuck nwbvt (836920) on Saturday June 04 2005, @11:36AM (#12723932) Journal
    No, Safari has rich text editing [twistermc.com].
    [ Parent ]
  • by djward (251728) on Saturday June 04 2005, @11:37AM (#12723937)
    Why should a web browser include a text editor? Stop propagating bloat and jack-of-all-trades syndrome.
    [ Parent ]
  • by fuck nwbvt (836920) on Saturday June 04 2005, @11:38AM (#12723943) Journal
    I might also add that Safari's implementation of RTE [allforces.com] is far superior to Mozilla/Gecko/Firefox.
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:Too bad the test itself is broken (Score:3, Informative)

    by orv (398342) on Saturday June 04 2005, @12:26PM (#12724240) Homepage
    LOL. The test is supposed to be broken. It's checking that renderers fall back correctly.
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:KDE (Score:2)

    by atomic-penguin (100835) <eric.wolfe@nospAM.gmail.com> on Saturday June 04 2005, @12:30PM (#12724260) Journal
    I don't see that debian will package konquerer that soon...

    Taken from http.us.debian.org/debian/dists/Debian3.0r6/main/b inary-i386/Packages
    Package: konqueror
    Priority: optional
    Section: web
    Installed-Size: 4984
    Maintainer: Christopher L Cheney
    Architecture: i386
    Source: kdebase
    Version: 4:2.2.2-14.9
    Replaces: kdebase-libs ( 4:2.2.2-14.2)
    Filename: pool/main/k/kdebase/konqueror_2.2.2-14.9_i386.deb
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:WebCore = EGCS (Score:1)

    by hxnwix (652290) on Saturday June 04 2005, @01:26PM (#12724559) Journal
    Remember that webcore contains OS X specific code.
    [ Parent ]
  • 12 replies beneath your current threshold.