Former AOLers Bet on Private P2P App

buhatkj writes "Some former AOL staffers have come up with something interesting. Namely, a P2P/instant messaging/groupware tool called Grouper. Sounds to me a bit like the GAIM plugin suggested by downhill battle..."

Too late in the game...

"Our technology turns the computer into a private server that allows you to share files securely in a small, invite-only group," Felser said in an interview with eWEEK.com. Each group becomes an encrypted peer-to-peer network that allows one-click access to browse and download files.

The reason that P2P networks are useful is because the speeds are fast and there is a TON of material out there. I'm sorry but a private network that is invite only just won't cut it.

Running Grouper through university networks can save Internet bandwidth costs because file transfers are done between machines on the local network (unlike other P2P networks).

Most Universities probably don't want ANY filesharing. A lot of them have limited bandwith for P2P applications as it is. Do you think that really want it going on at all? Probably not. Too many problems w/the RIAA and the MPAA.

However, Felser said Grouper's emphasis on being a small, private, encrypted network minimizes the risk. "We're a heck of a lot safer to the business because we target very small groups of people who already know and trust each other. And we have a very firm anti-spyware policy. We'll never add spyware or adware of any kind."

However, to outsiders (RIAA/MPAA) encryption means hiding data that doesn't belong to you. They will counter any argument with that statement.

P2P is fine with the free alternatives. I'm sorry but I just don't think this program is going anywhere. Maybe if it was created 5 or 6 years ago.

Re:Too late in the game...

It makes perfect sense. You STREAM it, not download it. You can't copy it to your computer and save it there from within the program. You can merely stream the audio, which is not the same as saving it to your hdd.

As far as the "private" performance, it should hold up in that only your invited/allowed "friends" (at this point up to 30) can listen to any given song at any given time. It's not offered to the general public. This would be like me having some friends over and playing music from my personal MP3 library. It's not a public performance because only my friends are listening to it, and they are only there because I invited them to the private gathering.

But the tricksy lawyerses will probably take away the precious anyway they like because they hates the precious and would rather see us dead than have it.

Re:Too late in the game...

Just check their forums.

It will NOT share files with MP3 or WMA extensions. Who knows that filetypes they'll decide to block next.

If they get rid of those restrictions (and the 30 person maximum) I'll bite. Until then, it's simple an interesting bit of software that I'll pass on.

N.

Re:Too late in the game...

Just another thought (as this is similar to an application that I brainstormed with a friend a couple years back):

It would be great to have a "trickle-sync" directory designation, so you could automatically share amongst group members. It would work like this:

One person would drop files into a directory designated as "trickle-sync", and it would be slowly passed-along to everyone else in the group automatically without any prompting (assuming they enabled that feature on their machines). Rather than using full available bandwidth, it might be set to, say, a 5kb/sec maximum or something (or dynamically adjust the bandwidth depending on what else is happening on the network at the time).

The idea being that if you found a new song, program, video file etc. that you think other people in your group might be interested in, you'd just drop it in that folder and eventually everyone else would get it automatically and save them the trouble of having to go look for it and download it.

The trickle-sync folder could have a maximum size limit on it, so if new files arrived and the folder was over-size, it would delete the oldest files first to make room for the new stuff.

N.

Never too late to be legal and change bad laws.

The reason that P2P networks are useful is because the speeds are fast and there is a TON of material out there. I'm sorry but a private network that is invite only just won't cut it. ... Maybe if it was created 5 or 6 years ago.

Ah, but sharing through a regular p2p or http server is essentially a republication and a direct copyright violation as copyright laws are written. Sharing files with your friends may not be and should not be any more than sharing a book or tape is. Five or six coppies does not make a republication.

The copyright warriors may claim otherwise, but they are clearly in the wrong and will be seen as the extremists that they are on this one. The current wave of lawsuits are that strip 12 year olds and grandparents out of their life savings are bad, but the asswipes can say, "they made tens of thousands thousands of coppies and cost us lots of money." Imagine how that would sound if it were, "he gave his mom a copy of his favorite song and derived us of income! We demand compensation!" The jerks already have egg on their face for placing huge burdens on people who did not know better, have nothing or did not even know what was going on in their house. This, we can hope, will finally kill them off and let the rest of us do what we want to do, share things we enjoy with our friends and family.

However, to outsiders (RIAA/MPAA) encryption means hiding data that doesn't belong to you. They will counter any argument with that statement.

Fuck them. I already share things with myself and friends via Openssh. What I have password protected on my machines is none of their business. Those things I created and own are shared by a http server on the same machine and anyone, including the RIAA is welcome to it.

I'm sorry but I just don't think this program is going anywhere. Maybe if it was created 5 or 6 years ago.

Ha! My windoze using peers would love to do the things I do with Konqueror. You know, drag and drop encrypted file transfer so that I can get at, use and edit my stuff from anywhere in the world. This is a step in that direction for those too timid to leave winblows. Such thoughts populate the reviews the Grouper people are displaying from such mainstream sources as PCMagazine and the Wall Street Journal. I'd rather these people stepped up to free software, but this kind of program is going to take off big time.

When that happens, it will change the way people think of publication in general. That will spell the end for the copyright warriors.

The just announced the name:

OMGWTFLOL.exe

Squeeze the Charmin.

"Some former AOL staffers have come up with something interesting. Namely, a P2P/instant messaging/groupware tool called Grouper. "

Damn! I read that as Groper. Reach out. Reach out, and grope someone today.

login sound

"You've got jail!"

like clevercactus?

Not sure who was first, but clevercactus [clevercactus.com] has had the same type of offering for awhile.

Groovy

The screenshots and described functionality look tremendously like the original free Groove software.

New name, same product?

Wouldn't this be a cleaned up and repackaged version of WASTE?

well

"Some former AOL staffers have come up with something interesting."
i guess the desire to leave AOL, and create something good go hand in hand

Old news?

I posted about Group in response to the GAIM thread the the other day [slashdot.org]. That said, my only complaint about Grouper is the obvious one--music is only streamable, not downloadable (though I imagine renaming the extension and/or compressing the file would be an easy way around this). If the filesharing is truly private, why bother with such a restriction?

30 node limit.......

.......how fantastically mediocre! Next thing they'll be saying is that you need to pay for the software! D'oh!

KDrive

KDrive [kdrive.com] allows users to set up secure groups across the net, push files to the group, and selectivly share different files with different groups

Like unix

This application is like everyone setting up a web server and a streaming server on their systems (integrated with IM, of course). I always feel nostalgic when functions that I learned with in unix are integrated into the desktop. Remember how 'talk', 'ytalk' and 'finger' was touched up to form IM?

Private encrypted P2P?

Sounds like a more polished version of WASTE [sf.net].

File sharing is the suxx0rz.

This is a really bad idea. First of all, it will cause people to illegally share music, movies, software, and other valuable intellectual property. Because file sharing software makes the decisions, not its users.

By leveraging innovative technologies, content providers streamline compelling enterprise solutions.

The RIAA, MPAA, and Microsoft should get together to put a stop to this before it becomes a larger problem than it already is. That is, unless the FBI, CIA, the Justice Department, and the NSA figure out a way to keep track of which files are being shared, and then administer the death penalty without a trial.

Done before?

How is this different from WASTE [sourceforge.net]?

we have that already

These "enterprise P2P" efforts seem to be attempting to recreate Windows File Sharing or NFS and call it "P2P". It's not clear whether that's a good idea. Those attempts have some things going for them: self-administration by users, no requirements for a central server, and distributed search. On the other hand, it is quite likely that enterprise administrators don't want some of those features. And they have some disadvantages, too: no auditing, no backup, no direct integration with end-user software (although, I suppose, you will see MS Office plugins).

Uh... this is news?

Sorry bud, yer a bit late - The Register had a story on this over two months ago http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/13/grouper_p2 p_launc/ [theregister.co.uk].

Hell, I was seeding a torrent for it on the release date, 23rd September - still running now lol...

People/media stations

I tend to disagree with those who say that private networks won't be successful in distributing media. Take for instance Friendster, you'll eventually run into people who wish to form nodes by linking with anyone who requests (not just long-time friends). These people will eventually function as a media stations and be able to deliver focused media to their network.

Kinda like Aimster

The whole concept sounds a lot like Aimster [howstuffworks.com]. I never used Aimster (because i havent used the AIM application since Trillian became available), but as I remember it, it was an application that "piggybacked" on AIM and allowed you to have filesharing circle with anyone on your buddy list. This "Grouper" thing just seems to run with that idea to me. Aimster (a href="http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/09/09/ 0049220&tid=141">ran into legal trouble and became Madster [madster.com].

The future of P2P....

When the RIAA started suing P2P users, I predicted that the future of P2P was going to be some encapsulation-type system, where I could share with people *I* trusted.... and they'd share with people *they* trusted, etc. So, you'd get this "six degrees of separation" deal going on.

The principle would end up working kind of like how terrorist cells work, such that the RIAA managing to bust one overly-trusting user wouldn't immediately jeopardize the rest of the users on the network.

It seems like that's kinda where we're headed with a lot of the new P2P apps coming out: Grouper, WASTE, etc. Now, we just need a system where we can actually *get* files from people we don't immediately trust by having the peers that we *do* trust act as relay stations or something. Granted, it increases traffic, but it cuts the risk *way* down.... and I don't really mind having to leave my P2P app running all night provided I can do it with impunity.

Awesome!

Now that something somewhere with this functionality will finally get wide exposure (slashdot is a great start) we can expect an OSS software package based on this to appear within a few months. Of course I'd prefer if GAIM was expanded to include this functionality.

Cheers,
_GP_

Innovative?

I'm sure they want (or have) patent's on this. So I gues Hotline, Carracho, KDX and all the other programs like this don't count. I don't see why this will make much money as Hotline tried to go commercial and it flopped. I mean, you can't really sell pirating software to pirates, can you?

Not that this doesn't have legit uses, but I hope these dudes are better marketers than they are innovators.

Groupware?

I was really excited by this at first. The idea of putting together IM and a non-outlook groupware solution seemed like a cool idea. Mix ical and IM with p2p without the ICQ bloat? Could be cool. Sadly... grouper is not this. It's waste with a pretty interface with a hint of the possibility of big brother watching me. :( Oh well.

Open question for Justin Frankel....

Justin...

Just what is it about working for AOL that makes people want to design and distribute software that ' sticks it to the MAN '?

Is it the bad coffee, doyathink?

A Bloated WASTE

I use and really like the idea of WASTE, although i wish it had a nicer UI. This takes it to an extreme and over complicates the matter. Also, as far as secure goes, I have issues with having to register to use it. I'm going to stick to WASTE where I don't have to worry about any third parties.

shoot

Shoot the Grouper...

well thought out!

Felser said rich media advertising will be embedded into the free version, and e-commerce tie-ins with online music stores and photo printing services will also offer business opportunities.

so no real business plan here then.

1. e-commerce tie-ins with online music stores and photo printing services
2. ???
3. profit

Prediction for next generation file sharing

When I got on the internet for the first time I was on dial-up. It cost money to stay on the net. My first thought was to download as much as I could, so that I could use it when I needed it (Downloading whole sites for offline viewing pleasure. Eg. Code sample archives).

I felt that way about programs too. I had to download them to my computer. I burned them out and archived them, just in case I would need them for a reinstall or for a friend.

Nowadays I seldom keep the installation program of applications. Why? Because I know they're out there. I can get them at a moments notice. How come? I've got a broadband connection now.

This is how I feel the next generation file sharing will become. Currently everyone is downloading everything. To have it handy. To use it. It doesn't need to be like that. I don't yet know how the technical solutions will be (if they ever will).

Imagine: A world wide archive of music at your fingertips. You don't have (much) of it at your hard drive, because it's accessible through the net. You have your favorite music "bookmarked" to make your collection. Music playback is instantly - because of the evolution of the speed of the net, and the evolution of the file sharing technology.

You won't have to think about "the files" as files. You think of them as entities. Always accessible.

You'll (as mentioned) probably have to keep a part of the world wide collection at your hard drive. (If it can't be stored at the net, always flowing).

Well, some of my thoughts. :). I know it's pretty far out, but it would've been neat. Any thougts?

iTunes on crack.

A lot of you seemed turned off immediately when the acronym "AOL" appeared, but did you even bother to try out the program yet? I've been using it for a week or so now, and I'm really impressed with it's music-streaming capabilities. It's like iTunes' network sharing abilities on crack.

If any of the rest of you are interested in joining my new grouper group, drop me a line (check my profile)

grouper don't like mozilla

Problem with Email Verification

Grouper was unable to automatically verify your email address. This could be caused by one of the following:

* Your default browser is not Internet Explorer.
* Internet Explorer is not configured to run signed, trusted ActiveX controls.

K:drive

The makers of the popular p2p network eDonkey have already been working on this for a while. Its called K:Drive [kdrive.com]. Check it out.

yeah great app

Ok, first it demands your email address. They probably sell it to the RIAA so they can prosecute. When you click on the link in the email to confirm you get this dialog,

"Problem with Email Verification

Grouper was unable to automatically verify your email address. This could be caused by one of the following:

* Your default browser is not Internet Explorer.
* Internet Explorer is not configured to run signed, trusted ActiveX controls."

So they also won't let you join if you don't use IE.

The whole thing is probably some sort of scam.

Groove like Data P2P is the next thing

Grouper is doing nothing new. You can download http://groove.net/ [groove.net] and start using automatically Magic folders automatically. Many people (usually on company instranet) finds this kind of folder sync extremly useful. But whats more important is data sync - which means your data like caleder info, bookmarks, notes etc gets sync. That has way too much potential. For example any app can use this automatically replicated sistributed database rather then relieng on central database server. Thats way beyond usual file sharing. Eventually everything is data and every storage system is somekind of database - so you can see where this is going. If you stretch your imagination little more further, this kind of data P2P effectively allows you to build your own distributed browsable website as "shared space". So your machine becomes a "server" distributing not just files and HTMLs but also event calenders, tiny notes, receipie book and so on. And the content on your machine (which has now becaome "server") is replicated across many mores to distribute the load. A current webserver as we undrstand is just the special case of access-to-everyone non-replicated content distributer. A machine participating in data P2P is far more general case and can be easily customized to emulate "web server". I've worked on heavy duty project implementing data P2P for two years and am pretyy convienced this is the next big thing on the horizon. Microsoft is already developing Windows P2P layer http://microsoft.com/p2p/ [microsoft.com] and would be available on Longhorn. Think outside the file P2P - there is whole new world! PS: I'll be bloging more about this topic on my blog http://www.shitalshah.com/blog/ [shitalshah.com]. Stay tuned.

Re:The reason they left?

AOL is extremely unfriendly towards their employees developing P2P stuff. Remember Gnutella was first developed by Nullsoft, an AOL subsidiary? Remember that AOL tried to kill it but the genie was already out of the bottle? Remember WASTE was first developed by Nullsoft too? Remember it was only up for about a day before AOL shut that down as well?

No problem. We'll just pay a soccer mom to visit AOL headquarters and dance around on the table demanding P2P and warez, and we got it.

MOD PARENT UP!

This sounds almost exactly like WASTE, and being made by a "former AOL employee" is too much of a coincidence. Either this is WASTE, or it was "inspired" by WASTE.

But either way, it's closed source -- so what's the point? It's not as if it had a head start or anything; you might as well just use the Free version.

Re:ugh

Yup. It's called Apache:

http://apache.org/

Re:I just want to say to Slashdotters

Thanks RIAA. My grouper ID is JESUS H CHRIST. See you online buddy!