Technology Makes New Cars Too Expensive to Fix 1246
securitas writes "The CSM's Eric Evarts reports on how technology makes new cars too expensive to repair, which may lead to disposable cars. The increased use of expensive electronics, air bags and advanced, lightweight body materials are causing costs to rise. Add to it the cost of specialized training and equipment (for an aluminum-body repair shop: $200,000) or even the cost of new parts alone (xenon high-intensity-discharge headlights: $3,000 each), not to mention the knowledge base required (over 1 million pages, available only electronically vs. 100 pages 20 years ago) and a labor shortage. From the article: 'Specialist technicians need advanced reading, problem-solving, and basic electronics skills.... The best people to find are those who have worked in the IT [information technology] industry.'"
Yay! Disposable cars! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Yay! Disposable cars! (Score:5, Interesting)
The typical 'movie bad guy hideout' junk yards will be a thing of the past in a short period. Cars won't be sitting around piled up ten to the dozen or in landfills, they're going to be snapped up by entities who want the materials.
It's also a sort of part payback to mother nature for some of the other bad shit we've been doing.
What with China et al manufacturing all the washing machines and stuff, and with prices rising (from forty pounds per ton to over a hundred, if i have been informed correctly) the demand will increase dramatically. Hell, a lot of manhole covers are disappearing around the country in what seems to be an attempt to cash in on the metal madness.
As far as the 'disposable car' goes, it all seems a bit of a gimmick, as current normal cars aren't exactly on the same level as toxic waste.
Re:Yay! Disposable cars! (Score:5, Insightful)
wow you are wrong.
those "scrap cars" are a goldmine for smart mechanics and car owners. those $3000.00 XENON HId headlamps can be bought from a junkyard out of a car that was in a nasty side impact or rear impact accident for $100-200 dollars. Computer for that Pontiac? $250.00 compared to $1500.00 at the dealer. how about simple stuff like the alarm keyfobs and electronic ID keys? the fealer quoted me $155.00 for a new key + alarm/entry keyfob. I was able to get a working keyfob + the secret proceedure to get it working at a local scrapyard for $15.00 and he was selling the key blanks for $10.00 each and had them cut at a local keyshop for $5.00
car scrapyards are worth much more as a parts source than as ground up scrap meatal, rubber and plastic.
In fact right now with the "down" economy.. the scrapyards with cars stacked up are making the most money and their business is booming as people are stretching their dollar every way they can.
Re:Yay! Disposable cars! (Score:4, Informative)
You want your headlights. You pick em up cheap from a big pile of headlights. You win.
The companies interested in cheap raw materials buy everything else that is of no use to Joe Sixpack. They win
The scrap yard owner gets both your money and money from the company looking for cheap bulk scrap. He wins
Less junk piles up that people off the street don't want. Mother nature wins.
Re:Yay! Disposable cars! (Score:5, Informative)
Like the poster said, cars are worth a lot in parts. Thats why you see Push Pull Drag in deals where they will give you 1000 bucks for a POS, it's worth it to them.
These places keap prices for repair down. If you need a big part for your car like an engine or tranny this is where it comes from, or a fender or hood. When a body shop or garage goes fixing your car they will always use these parts first unless they can't find them. Insurance company price out for these parts. You wouldn't want to pay for OEM fenders or a brand new engine. Even if they say they are new it is very unlikely they are new.
The reality of it is, if you bought a brand new car, or maybe a year old model cheap, then took it to a salvage yard, they could probably turn around and turn a profit on parting it out.
The giant car eaters are good for stuff that is crap. But those programs also raise the cost of used parts for your car. They are mainly pushed because the car companies get emmissions credits for getting old clunkers destroyed. Not a bad thing, just has it's serious draw backs. Since if your a car collector it will be come very hard to find that car you always wanted or parts for it.
It should be noted that in some places in Europe now car companies have to set up a EOL plan for the car that includes it's disposal, thats why those scredders are coming into play.
How much energy does recycling a car take? (Score:4, Insightful)
Aside from the power used, it's a cyclic process with minimal wastage. The rubber, plastic, metal can be reused for whatever purpose necessary. It has to be economically viable if these companies are willing to lay out so much green for these 'car eaters'.
Wow.... Uhhh, yeah. So you've got a Honda Civic or some other piece of junk which only lasts 7 years. You crush it, transport it, shred it, smelt it, transport the ingot, re-melt for cold rolling, roll it, stamp it, weld the stampings back together, paint it, and sell it as a new car.
Okay... Why don't you try looking up the specific heat of iron and the energy content of coal. Sit back and tell me how many tons of coal you have to burn each time you melt an equivalent quantity of iron and steel to a car.
It's horrifically wasteful and terrible for the environment. In fact, you'd have to drive a poorly-tuned old gas guzzler for 22 years (on top of its regular lifespan) to make up the environmental damage caused by recycling it.
Buy a good and *durable* car that is easy to work on - not some Japanese tinfoil crap. Wash it and wax it every week. Change the oil every 4,000km or three months. Keep the engine tuned up, and when it needs rings and bearings, do it. And drive the thing for as long as you can - I'm thinking 40+ years. The newer more environmentally-"friendly" cars aren't.
My automotive stable includes a 1970 Dodge Dart with a Slant-6. Fits my 6'4" tall body comfortably, starts every morning with the legendary Chrysler gear-reduction "dive bomber" starter motor and a satisfying click-click-click of the solid lifters, gets 28MPG and blows as clean on the emissions test as a 1990-spec. And forget the $3000 HID headlights; mine are $4.99 each at Wal*Mart.
Can't buy a new car like that these days.
Re:How much energy does recycling a car take? (Score:5, Informative)
Anybody with *any* experience with Chrysler products, or Honda Civics, would moderate this as a troll, or perhaps humorous. There's a reason that Consumer Reports (among others) gives top ratings to Honda, and low-end ratings to anything Dodge. And I can assure you that Honda Civics last a *lot* longer than 7 years, and you don't even have to change the oil every 2,500 miles. Perhaps in the late 70's what you're saying is true, but now Civics are the most reliable cars on the road.
The idea of being a car snob over a Dodge is absurd. I owned one before, and I wouldn't wish one upon my worst enemy.
Re:How much energy does recycling a car take? (Score:5, Informative)
Wow, biased much? No offense but I (and a ton of other people) would prefer to own some fine Japanese tinfoil, any day. Americans have produced some decent cars, but overall... suckage. IMHO of course.
Honda CR-V. 5 years old, 45k miles, good as new, seriously very close to mint condition. Check the resale value if you like.
Also, I wouldn't wax your car every week unless you're talking about automatic carwash wax. Waste of time, waste of wax.
Why blame technology? (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Yay! Disposable cars! (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Automakers win.
2. Workers lose since they have to work harder.
3. The environment loeses since there is more junk being created.
4. More resources are consumed to make those cars, not to mention all the extra driving that is done. etc.
A friend of mine wondered how we would justify feeding people for free if technology replaced their jobs. My response is that in a sane society, you would simply weigh the cost of the gas that they would consume driving to work everyday, vs the output of a machine doing that job. Then you would look at the overall budget and realize that it would be cheaper just to let them do whatever they want and not come to work, than to make them burn up several gallons of gas (and other resources) a week driving their Ford Explorer to work, all so that they can be treated like a robot. There are a lot of jobs like that, jobs that aren't really needed, working in factories that are beyond obsolete, but are kept around to keep a lid on the violence that would surely ensue if half of all Americans were suddenly jobless. The problem with the current situation is that we are burning up a lot of resources to keep the illusion of market economics alive. We could just admit that it's all a sham, be done with it, and simplify things greatly, minimizing work, resource consumption, the whole ball of wax. The problem is, giving the little people all that free time would be dangerous to those in power. So, instead, the illusion must be maintained.
my 84 vw rabbit... (Score:4, Funny)
power steering is for pussies.
Re:my 84 vw rabbit... (Score:5, Funny)
goes slower than your 84 rabbit, handles worse, has a real transmission, and is even easier and cheaper to work on.
It's also exempt from emissions checks.
Take these two posts, and I think the moral here is that the best option is to own the oldest car you can get your hands on.
That's not true! (Score:5, Funny)
They found out, in the news, after they lit a Hummer Dealership on fire, that Hummers, ONLY when lit on fire, put out more pollutants then they EVER would through normal usage and eventual PROPER destruction at the end of their lives...
Re:my 84 vw rabbit... (Score:4, Insightful)
If the Hummers just barely meet federal standards, then no. I've had numerous '80s cars that tested to be well within the federal guidelines for new cars. Just because it is old does not mean that it is dirty.
Re:my 84 vw rabbit... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:my 84 vw rabbit... (Score:5, Funny)
Sounds like my last date. ZING!
Re:my 84 vw rabbit... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Actually.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Totally disagree. The terrorists in Al-Qaida and the Palestinian groups have made it widely known that they hate the Jewish people. Most of their terrorist acts these days are because of American support of Isreal. Bin Laden's biggest motivator was that the dirty white American christians were in his precious holy land. They're intolerant, racist, anti-semitic bastards.
Popular opinion seems to be that the primary cause for this ignorance and violence is lack of proper education and lack of gainful employment. Since the poor people have nothing to do and can only learn from fundamentalist Muslim "clerics," they become terrorists. You don't see any rich kids blowing themselves up to kill innocents that they have never met yet hate passionately.
Anyway, back to oil. Not every middle-eastern nation has oil to sell (or even use). The US has a large amount of undrilled oil but it's hard to get to and too expensive to drill right now, for the most part. One of my best friends owns oil rights to some property in Wellsville NY and used to spend every day out in the oil fields. It's dirty, rigorous work, and although you can make money drilling oil you can't make money paying someone else to drill it for you. In Iraq and Saudi-Arabia the oil is easy to get to and close to the surface; in NY and PA, the oil is far down and underneath a lot of bedrock. Then there are environmental regulations and laws and taxes and special equipment costs for the deep drilling, etc.
Oddly, most of the laborers in Qatar (another oil-rich country) are foreigners from neighboring poor countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan where there is no money, no oil, no work and no hope. Even the people of Qatar tend to discriminate against "local foreigners" (see National Geographic from 2003... er... last spring? It has an arabian guy on the cover). The culture of the middle east is simply an intolerant one.
-JemDon't change jobs yet......... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Don't change jobs yet......... (Score:5, Interesting)
The trick is to avoid industries that are easily shipped offshore. This morning's paper had an article about drug testing going overseas because it's cheaper. At an Apple's developer's conference years ago, I saw a presentation by a radiologist that involved shipping x-rays over an ISDN line. That technology has made it possible to ship the radiologist's job overseas as well.
It's tough to squeeze a mechanic or a plumber through a data pipe, no matter how fat the pipe.
Re:Don't change jobs yet......... (Score:5, Funny)
Tell that to Nintendo!
Re:Don't change jobs yet......... (Score:4, Funny)
The robot will curse in Hindi as it finds problems.
Re:Don't change jobs yet......... (Score:4, Interesting)
Instead, we're just giving them cheaper access to people with the same degree of training, and magnifying our trade deficit in the process.
Re:Don't change jobs yet......... (Score:4, Insightful)
If your ABS computer breaks, you need a new ABS computer and the old one is scrap. Not really hard to diagnose because of the onboard computer diangostics, not hard to fix. But it is expensive as hell. It leads to a market in designing interfaces for the onboard diagnostic computers, but that's an outsourced job assuming an American company is even making the interface to begin with.
Re:Don't change jobs yet......... (Score:4, Funny)
Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress!
Think "Subscription Cars" (Score:5, Interesting)
How do we know that the next step in this consumer financial treadmill isn't "subscription cars"? When it breaks beyond a certain level, you go to the dealership, turn in your car and get into a newly refurbished one. No hassle for the dealer to figure out complicated parts or systems, just basic fluid level maintenence.
Auto mechanics become few and far between; the use/broken/damaged cars are shipped by train/ship to $third_world where they're parted out and reassembled to be returned to dealers. The truly bad parts are either scrapped for base metals or, if modular, further disassembled for their own reassembly.
At this point, we don't have mechanics with any more skill than the droolers at Rapid-Oil and the high value technician jobs really have been essentially outsourced to a third world country. For the US, Mexico would make more sense than India due to simple geography and the size/weight of a car; but it's not improbable that labor rates in India/China/Philipines would be low enough that transhipping cars overseas would make sense.
I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
But a lot of the issues raised in the article are for what are at least supposed to make you safer. If the teenager in the first paragraph had to throw away a new BMW but got to keep his legs, how expensive was that car, really? Even just in dollars and cents, a new pair of legs isn't cheap, nor is learning to use them.
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
If I were on his jury, I'd acquit anyone arrested for stealing those goddamn headlights (what kind of safety feature is it to blind oncoming traffic?).
Your point still stands but it is interesting to point out that Xenon HID lamps are not that irritating to oncoming traffice if they are properly filtered and aimed.
Its these shit ass ricers and idiot suburban wannabees that but the cheap ass aftermarket crap that aren't aimed right and are nearly unfiltered throwing an awful lot of crap in the shorter wavelengths.
More fundamental than that. (Score:5, Interesting)
People putting obnoxious driving lights on their crappy wannaberacecars was just as bad with halogens and xenons as it now is with HIDs.
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:5, Informative)
When a car leaves the dealership with HID lights, it is aimed and filtered properly so it does not blind other drivers. When a car leaves the dealership and then decides to retrofit HID lights into headlight housings meant for halogen lights, then you have problems. IIRC, the housing internals has to be modified for HID lights.
-dk
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
The downside of course is that it is an older car and has none of the safety gear that modern cars have. I once lost a wheel racing (and winning) a 930 turbo (when I was younger and more impetuous) as there were no safety devices that would retain it when the axle broke. You can imagine the fear that sets in at 110MPH or so when you suddenly find yourself running along with a presumably four wheel car that now happens to have only three.
As an aside, you might be surprised at how much an "automotive technician" who knows their stuff can make. The folks down at the Mercedes Benz dealer can truly clean up with six figure salaries. And judging from the last routine service bill on my mom's S-class, there may be more than one tech making that kind of salary there.
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
Apparently the diagnostic kit for this car alone costs 7000! Apparently the main reason for this is not to create disposable cars (although that's something I'm sure they'd love!) but to prevent unofficial garages from being able to perform repairs, thereby essentially restricting the the owner of the car to an official garage for the lifetime of the car.
Another off-topic thing of interest they mentioned was that the diagnostics of the car are accessed wirelessly and that these diagnostics can operate pretty much any feature in the car! I give it about a week before an exploit to unlock the car and start the engine is released...
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, but at what cost?? Let's suppose you buy a new car that costs, oh, $15,000 to build, but breaks down in, say, 5 years, leaving it unrepairable. Do you *really* think, in 5 years, you could conserve $15,000 worth of fuel over the lifetime of that car in order to justify it's outright disposal? Moreover, do you think it's increased efficiency can counter-balance the environment impacts of build that car, disposing of it and building a new one?
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Which would you prefer -- a set of steel control arms with a 3 year life at a cost of $75 plus labor each time, or a set of aluminum control arms with a ten year life at a cost of $150 plus labor?
Overall, you're saving $75 if you keep the car ten years, and $150 if you keep the car 8 or 9.
Incidentally, this is one of the things that fuels the "American cars are crap" sentiment that is common among many people. Often, American cars use less expensive parts that are also less expensive to repair. Foreign cars are more likely to be made of precision parts, with a massive cost. A new clutch kit for a Ford Taurus is around $300. A new clutch kit for my Passat is clost to $1000.
One solution, btw, is not to abandon the better quality parts, but to create an open parts standard. The more cars that use a specific part, the more generic offerings there are and the cheaper those offerings become. There's also more parts available from used auto parts catalogues.
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Yeah! Car manufacturers pulling an Epson? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:5, Informative)
you can't have it both ways (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Really, all those electronic driving aids make it possible to pay less attention to your driving, without increasing your risk of death. Several of the items you listed do nothing to help avoid accidents, only to help survivability when you do smash into something.
Really, what we need on this continent (N.A.), is mandatory advanced driver training and skid school. There are far too many people out there on the roads that have no idea where the performance limits of their cars are, or what to do when they pass those limits.
Its Too Easy To Fry! (Score:5, Informative)
As these cars get more and more advanced its getting harder for doityourselfers to even attempt to modify or maintian them.
Re:Its Too Easy To Fry! (Score:5, Funny)
Someone please tell my dad this. He's always trying to fix cars that are a little too complicated for anyone to figure out in a weekend. The cars slowly start to have problems more frequently until, at long last, the car stops running on the highway and I'm 20 miles from claiming my lottery ticket on my way to marrying Britney Spears. You could say I'm bitter.
Re:Its Too Easy To Fry! (Score:5, Insightful)
Yet, somehow it becomes easier to build/mod your own computer as they become more advanced.
Too bad there isn't some 'Personal Car' platform.
We currently have fairly easily customizable tires, exhaust, audio, glass, and various 'case mods'.
What we need is user-interchangable chasis, engine, drive train, cab. That'd be cool.
I thought disposable cars were already out there.. (Score:5, Funny)
Support your classic car restorer (Score:5, Interesting)
Another bonus: a back-yard mechanic can work on it...
Re:Support your classic car restorer (Score:5, Interesting)
Intuitively, that makes a bit of sense. All these modern composites and exotic metals can't be clean to work with. Though I suppose it'd be easier for a factory to contain the pollutants.
Would be neat to see a study on it. I wonder what the current situation would look like if manufacturing was included in the pollution scale, and compared against recycling old vehicles.
Re:Support your classic car restorer (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Support your classic car restorer (Score:5, Insightful)
However, i think the best argument against worring about emissions of classics is that all the classics in the city don't produce as many pollutants as one old dump truck that is emempt from pollution laws becasue it pollutes so much.
Re:Support your classic car restorer (Score:5, Insightful)
will you buy the statement that its more environmentally expensive to make and drive a (near)zero-emissions car than to not make said car and drive another that was already made 40 years ago(thus eliminating the ability to prevent its manufacturing)? if i drive older cars with new fuel injected engines, i eliminate the need for new cars to be made for me. i think thats better.
whether the original statement that its cleaner to drive an old car than to make a new one is debateable. my point is that the cost of making the old car is irrelevant because it cant be eliminated while the cost of making a new one can.
Re:Support your classic car restorer (Score:4, Informative)
All this "backyard mechanics can't fix today's cars" talk is just nonsense. Modern parts are lightweight and precision manufactured. There's no banging or clanging to get parts off, no rusted bolts, no tweaking of the carburetor and timing. There's no cables to break, and very little danger of an improperly timed engine pinging itself into oblivion.
Cases in point: the Passat stopped firing on one cylinder. There were three things that could have caused this: a broken plug wire (it was fine), a broken plug (brand new and tested fine) or a problem with the ignition control module. Testing the ICM showed cylinder three was receiving no signal. $100 later, I had a new module which installed in about five minutes.
When I had a similar problem with the Beetle, I had the same three possible sources (plug, wire or ignition control). However, the ignition control system, being mechanical, was far more difficult to troubleshoot. I ended up replacing pretty much everything...the distributor, the condensor, the solenoid...and even then, I spent the better half of an afternoon tweaking it.
Of course, working on the Beetle is more FUN, because the endless possibilities of a custom and delicate relationships between components make it more satisfying.
Keep it in the family (Score:5, Insightful)
Recycling (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyone heard anything about this?
Re:Recycling (Score:4, Interesting)
-B
So, what they are saying is (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So, what they are saying is (Score:4, Interesting)
now are you SURE you wanna be an auto mechanic???
if so, contact me and I'll trade my job for your job faster than you can download a 1K webpage on OC1 fiber.
Re:same in many businesses (Score:4, Insightful)
This is so popular to say, but I totally disagree. Calculus doesn't change. Data Structures doesn't change. Formal Languages doesn't change. The fundamentals of good software design do not change.
There's nothing you learn in Computer Science that you can't teach yourself.
Oh, I agree with that -- same with nuclear engineering, accounting, writing, and musical performance. So what? Many people go to school because it gives them a head start in their chosen career. Many employers will throw out your resume without a degree. Most people want to be an 'employee' for a while before they become an 'employer'. Ergo, get a degree. The smartest, though, go to school so they can saturate themselves in an environment of their choice, to study with the brightest people in their field. You can't get that by locking yourself in your bedroom with 'MySQL for Dummies'. An architect or artist gets critiqued a thousand times for their work before they're paid to design their first building or play their first concert. Why should a software project or IT infrastructure be any different?
he was telling me that most of the people running such businesses don't have degrees
Yep, I too know a lot of uneducated IT people making big money doing mediocre work. If that makes you happy, by all means -- but I'm glad to see that you're not giving up college. There's more there than you're giving it credit for, or you're going to the wrong uni.
and you're just realizing this now? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:and you're just realizing this now? (Score:4, Insightful)
A lot of people look under the hood and instantly get intimidated. My view is that despite how it looks, the basic parts are still there as they have been for decades. You just have to have the desire and interest to figure it out. With that said, I do see why people often don't want to mess with it. It takes work, you get dirty, and you can get hurt.
Tons of people open a computer case, see a complicated jumble of wires and chips, and say "I can never understand this". The average Slashdot reader thinks this stuff is easy. Same thing for cars. The bottom line is determining where you want to spend your time and efforts.
Personally, I do as much maintenance myself as I can. I even do some major repairs, but I make sure to do research before hand and decide if I'll be opening a can of worms doing it myself. So far I have been lucky and not really bit off more than I can chew. But then again I may have a better assesment of my abilities than a lot of do it yourselfers. I save a lot of money, and it is an excuse for me to buy new tools (i.e. toys).
guess what (Score:5, Insightful)
They want your money.
They do not want you to fix it yourself.
They want to sell you a whole new part every time!
They do not want you to buy a part from someone else.
They want you to get then to fix it in one of their repairshops.
More to it than that (Score:5, Insightful)
Lots of folks are driving around in 20-30 year old cars. Contrast with this: I recently had a 1995 Lincoln Town Car with one of those "state of the art" 4.6l modular v-8 engines go tits up. Spent a week screwing with it because I'm too cheap to pay the dealership to work on it - replaced a bunch of junkyard type parts - pip crank sensor ($20), ign module ($400 new, BTW), fuel pump, filter, etc. Nothing helped and I didn't have a compression gauge that would reach down to those spark plug holes buried deep in the heads.
So we hauled it 50 miles to the nearest dealership and left it with them - two days and $150 later I find out "it's dead." Simple as that - the fucking thing is dead. A new engine is thousands of dollars and even repairs are incredibly expensive because of all the labor involved to remove things like cylinder heads (all those valvetrain parts are now on the heads, so you have chains and gears and high pressure oil passages through head gaskets). And the engine has, like, 30PSI compression on all the cylinders but two. Why? Don't know and it'd cost several hundred dollars just to find out how extensive the damage is. Meanwhile a USED '95 Towne Car is like $3000, which means it's cheaper to send this one to the junkyard than to fix it.
End result? Now instead of having a ten year old car on the road after extensive repairs, it'll be a ten year old car permanently off the road. One less used automonbile in the chain to support with aftermarket parts, one less used car on the road to provide an alternative to a NEW CAR PURCHASE.
And that's where we're going. Just like those shiny new computers that die a month after their three year warranty runs out and cost as much to fix as buying a whole new computer, we'll end up with cars that are so expensive to fix it's cheaper to buy a NEW ONE. It's not about selling "parts" - manufacturers don't make nearly as much of cataloging, shipping and reselling a $400 part as they make off selling a whole new car. It's all part of planned obsolesence - not just of cars and computers, but an attempt to make obsolete "antiquated" concepts like quality and craftsmanship. Replace art with graphic design; intellect with economics.
this is caca de toro... (Score:4, Interesting)
b) While the cars become more complex, the tools to fix them become better. Nowadays a mechanic plugs a laptop into your car and the car tells him/her "the fuel pump is 10% off, should I readjust?". 15 years ago mechanics would do something closely resembling forensics to figure out which wire was fried. This is done today in seconds.
Clearly some complex parts are hard to repair, but instead of dumping them, export them to third world countries where they will be miracolously repaired....
Re:this is caca de toro... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with this is that cars _are_ indeed machines. People are just lazy.
People no longer care if "that thing's got a hemi" They just want 50mpg and oil that never has to be replaced.
It's sad.
Re:The problem is... (Score:5, Insightful)
Newer cars are being treated like appliances rather than machines... It's sad.
Depends on your point of view, I suppose.
Personally, I think it's rather impressive. Back when everyone could work on their own car, everyone *had* to work on their own car, because cars needed lots of attention on a regular basis just to keep running. Modern automobiles have gotten so reliable that people fully expect them to run for 100,000+ miles without anything more than gas, oil changes and new tires and brakes. The day when driving a car daily meant you had to be able to troubleshoot problems is gone.
It's sad for people who enjoy working on cars in their spare time, but for everyone else, who just wants to get from point A to point B, reliably, comfortably, safely and in whatever style they prefer, it's great.
I like not having to fiddle with my cars; it frees up time I can spend fiddling with computers, dive gear, my nifty new GPS receiver, etc.
Re:The problem is... (Score:4, Insightful)
In last year I've opened the hood a few times: to add water (and some liquid stuff they sell at gas stops) to windshield cleaning thingie. If there's anything except adding fuel or the cleaning solution, the car goes to a repair shop. Well, changing tires is done in another shop as I know the people working there and know they're going to sell me good tires for reasonable price.
I don't want to open the hood. I don't want to do any repairs. I want to move between locations comfortably, economically, when I want to (as opposed to when the busses/trains go, although I do choose the train quite often).
For these reasons, I'm not going to buy a 20 year old "real car" but rather a new one that will work without trouble for a few years again.
/me hugs (Score:5, Interesting)
This is too true (Score:5, Insightful)
How can you fix this problem? Stop buying new cars when you car is perfectly good. Plus it will save you a few bills each month.
Bic Cars (Score:5, Insightful)
With New Car payments in the 400 dollar plus range if an 800 dollar car lasts over two months (most do) you are ahead of the people driving new cars. The Champ junker I bought was a 200 dollar 1977 Caprice that lasted 3 years and still fetched 75 bucks from the scrap yard!
Re:Bic Cars (Score:4, Funny)
Best thing was when I took it to the shop to get the breaks fixed (got a cheap break dude who would do it for $40, so why do it myself). He said "you know you head gasket is leaking oil right? you should get that fixed, but it's like $600-$800. You'll blow the engine and get stranded" (he knew I had a long commute). My response " guess it's time to get that cell phone I've been thinking about.."
Re:Bic Cars (Score:4, Funny)
Ok... this one has got issues (Score:4, Interesting)
Um...Am I the only one who thinks there are probably numerous reasons why this is a bad idea/statement? Disposable Car? People in other countires must love our frame of mind. If a brand new BMW (as in story) costs more to replace the air bags than the car, than somebody please, sell me a BMW sans airbags. I'll throw in a five point harness, reinforce the subframe, and sign a waiver. I think I have a rain check for a mid-life crisis around here somewhere....
No... really... disposable car = huh? Recycled car / rethink industry as a whole = hah!
besides, does anyone here in the IT industry really want to figure out why the 2010 Ford Festiva is having a hard time finding drivers (pun?) for it's various parts?...
Expensive Electronics? (Score:5, Insightful)
The use of electronics in cars was supposed to make them cheaper not more expensive. The problem isn't generally the 'expensive electronics' the problem usually is that there aren't enough trained technicians to fix electronic problems. Most mechanics are trained in, well mechanics, not electronics.
xenon high-intensity-discharge headlights: $3,000 each
I'm thinking this isn't a general problem. How many people are buying cars that have $6000 worth
of headlights alone? Damn, those must be some mighty fine headlights, why not just equip the car with nightvision goggles, it would be cheaper.
Specialist technicians need advanced reading, problem-solving, and basic electronics skills.... The best people to find are those who have worked in the IT [information technology] industry.
I've actually been thinking that automotive electronics diagnostics & repair could be a good field to get into - it can't be outsourced and the demand is there.
After-market services (Score:5, Informative)
So instead of replacing your spark plugs (~$15), you have to replace the plugs, the wiring, etc. The total cost? More than $100 for some. It's intentional - it's like soldering your CPU to your motherboard so you have to replace the whole board in order to upgrade/replace your CPU. I believe Packard Bell used to do this, and look where they are now.
I completely disagree (Score:4, Interesting)
Auto manufacturers can go a LONG way to lower the cost of cars and car repair by creating a variety of standardized systems. While it's true that to some extent that style and creativity would be hampered by the inclusion of modular standards for automobiles, the cost issue can be quickly and effectively addressed.
Consider the various levels of standardization that we already enjoy. There are standardized tool sizes. There are standardized bays for electronics in the dash such as radios, CD and even DVD players. The incredibly thin margins on the still surviving PC components market proves out that making automobile components even more standard and modularized could easily address the concern over the rising cost of automotive repair.
In many ways, if the concept were more widely addressed, a great number of matters could be addressed such as handling recalls of various components and even upgrades.
This could open the door to smaller manufacturers to get into the third party parts business... which is exactly why the idea will probably never be realized.
part of the problem.. (Score:5, Interesting)
God forbid you want a car that doesn't have all the crap or *GASP* not an automatic transmission (I'll take the lower gas milage and increased service problems for $800 alex!").
Anway, when we could only find ONE manual, base moodel subaru Forester in the entire STATE and we didn't like that color, we bought a used one at an auction threw a friend for $7k less, 2 years old 28K miles (this is why I don't buy new!).
Not Worried (Score:4, Insightful)
Honestly, how many 1970 automobiles do pass on your way to work?
Consumers buy new cars every few years regardless of the maintenance costs on their trade in cars, and people will never stop crashing their cars & filling salvage yards with plenty of recyclable parts.
In a sense, cars have been "disposable" for many years.
Leased vehicles are "disposed" from one class of consumers, down to another class and so on.
This reminds me of a book I read about garbology (can't remember the title), where scientist were baffled about the low quantity of washers & dryers found in dumps. They discovered that broken appliances were exported to central and south America to be rebuilt, and that many of the appliances used there were decades old!
new cars are also lower maintenance (Score:4, Interesting)
This trend is also driving mechanics out of business. It used to be that a car would generate serious $$$ in terms of annual scheduled maintenance.
So consider the plight of independent mechanics - not only does it now require the equivalent of a college degree's education to understand most cars, but it's also less rewarding because there are fewer opportunities for maintenance.
This is a double-hit.
--Pat / zippy@cs.brandeis.edu
$3000 Xenon Headlights? (Score:5, Insightful)
As far as the headlight cost, a full conversion kit including ballasts, headlights and wiring harness typically costs $500. The actual lights are about $50 ea. Not $3000.
yea for neaderthal-tech! (Score:5, Insightful)
They're now over 25 years old, are driven every day, and never break down (well almost).
Advantages
- initial cost was very low
- labor is cheap & easy
- parts are very cheap and readily available
- most components are extra-heavy-duty, and so last hundreds of thousands of miles
- seven passenger convertible
- can use it to pull stumps on the weekend then commute topless during the week!
- gets better mileage than a new truck
- more fun to drive than most new trucks
Disadvantages
- no cup-holders
- no airbags
- no cup-holders
- loud on the highway
- even with extra emissions equipment, it isn't as clean or efficient as a new economy-oriented vehicle.
And the best part? After a day of listening to vendors describe how their shiney new product has made everything we're using from 2003 so obsolete...getting into a vehicle designed in the early sixties that still outperforms many new vehicles on the road. Screw disposable, build something amazing and folks will use it for decades.
As a former tech... (Score:5, Interesting)
The only area in which cars have not become lower maintenance is oil changes. You still need to change the oil every 3,000 miles. But aside from that, most cars today require very little maintenance compared to their simpler predecessors.
Yes, cars are more complicated, but for the first time in history, machines with moving parts are more reliable than those without. The average PC is less reliable than the average car, and given a choice, I think most people would rather have a reliable vehicle than a simple one requiring more maintenance.
I know this'll get flamed, but I can't help it... (Score:4, Insightful)
Technology is expen$ive -- All those robots, controllers, lift-assist devices, etc. aren't cheap , plus they're not servicable by just anybody (a lot of heavy equipment sales contracts include exclusive service contracts -- where do you think the auto industry learned the trick in the first place? They're just aware that no ordinary consumer in their right mind would buy their car from someone who "held them over the barrel" on the maintenance!)
Tech people are expen$ive -- (this is where many of us come in) all that engineering (mechanical, electrical, and computational) expertise (not just directly employed by the auto industry but also employed by their suppliers, with the costs getting passed-on to you-know-where...) comes at a price; a high and ever-increasing one.
Doing business is expen$ive -- Government regulations, public expectations, employee relations, and a myriad of other lumps in the morass that has become business in America make for an extremely costly environment to manufacture just about anything. Let's say, for example, that the media gets ahold of the fact that your automobile company's R&D department used an "open source" CAD system to develop your latest release's state-of-the-art passive restraint system. Regardless of how you or I view "open source" software, the majority of the "unwashed masses" out there still feel more comfortable with some big company's "deep pockets" standing behind a product than a dedicated cadre of nearly fanatical enthusiasts, so voilà, instant class-action suit (and then we're not talking about the majority of the "unwashed masses" out there any more, just a carefully selected 12 of them...)
As a result of the points above (and a good many more than can be typed here with one hand while I eat my lunch with the other), the costs for equipment, supplies, software, education, facilities, even the electricity and water for nearly any major manufacturing facility are driven up, up and UP. "Cost"?!?! Yeah.
Re:I know this'll get flamed, but I can't help it. (Score:4, Insightful)
We (the consumers) demand cars with ever more advanced technologies installed. Those technologies don't just appear out of the air - they are developed just like any software are developed. Development costs! The car companies have to gain profit for this development overhead - and the scheduled maintinance checks seem right on target for that.
This is a bunch of horse shit (Score:4, Interesting)
I am a novice mechanic who has owned and worked on (to some degree) 12 cars. Some of them I ran into the ground, some of them I sold, some of them I ran into other cars. So that was my introduction to learning how to work on cars - buying beaters. About the most complicated thing I've done so far was a head swap on a SOHC toyota motor, or at least I participated in it :P Actually, doing the oil pan on my 240SX without removing the motor was kind of an odyssey all on its own, involving dropping the cross member...
Now, I'm in air conditioning class, have taken an auto body class and an auto paint class, and have been doing that kind of stuff for some time, and as well I have a car that I work on somewhat regularly and my girlfriend has another which I'm going to pull the transmission from soon as I get a sunny weekend. Then, I'm going to be getting a 1962 chevy pickup which is going to need a ton of work. So I know a little something about working on older cars.
The first big thing to make it hard to work on modern cars was the ECU. Code readers came out as a result. It's true that you can't get the really cool codes out of the computer without knowing all the manufacturer-specific information, like the position of mode doors, the values of sensors, and so on. However, the documentation still tells you how to go about testing all that stuff with nothing more complicated than a DVOM. Any shop without a DVOM is no shop at all, so that's no big deal.
Finally let us discuss the price of intensely expensive individual parts. This is a scam by the dealership to make money. However any car with $3,000 headlights (for example - The headlights on a 1991 Acura NSX are $500 each just for the reflectors is pretty much meant to be dealer-serviced-only. Basically all top end cars are meant to be serviced only by the dealer, but no automaker I'm aware of makes cars which are unfeasible to service in any old shop.
With that said, the repair garage is on its way out. Oh sure it'll be many decades before it happens but progress is relentless. Eventually everyone will want to trade in their internal combustion monsters (except for those people doing motorsports, did you know you can run methanol in ordinary engines with minimal conversion? it's high octane, too) for fuel cell, battery-powered, flywheel-powered, or other alternative-energy source vehicles because they will be both cheaper (to operate) and more reliable. As the part count drops the vehicles become easier to repair; Eventually the dealers will end up designing the parts to be easy to replace, and just charging ridiculous amounts of money for them, and anyone who can assemble a children's toy (of course, this isn't everyone) will be able to make any kind of repairs to a car.
Oh yeah, one last note on the computerization of cars ostensibly making it harder to troubleshoot problems with your car: Some of the cars with a screen in the dash have a diagnostic mode you can put them in (outlined in the car's manual) and you can actually use that screen for a code reader. In other words, you get the full benefit of having the code reader, without even having one. This is possible because all the little computers in the car talk to one another on the newer systems. You can see which switches, doors, etc are activated without even plugging anything in.
You have only yourself to blame if you get some high-falutin' car with the little radar parking system and everything, and then expect it to be easy to work on, and repairs to be inexpensive. It simply doesn't work that way.
Don't get your hopes up (Score:5, Interesting)
WRT to the expensive parts, you didn't actaully think all those safety features would not cost more than the old stuff? That's why an "economy" car costs what it does. It's litigation insulation that's not optional for the buyer.
One upside = job security. If you can read above a 3rd grade level, have some mechanical aptitude and a decent set of tools, you'll never be unemployed in the auto repair industry unless you just don't want to work. Everyone wants to hire a top diagnostic guy but they're never willing to compensate appropriately. If the worse should happen and I get layed off my IT job, it's comforting to know that I can bring 10 years of experience and college education to bear on the goal of earning $15-20/hour flat-rate.
Are we to believe (Score:4, Insightful)
Hell, ask an IT geek to weld some steel and see how sound that weld is. Like technology getting more sophisticated will some how spell the doom of mechanics. Mechanics will change and evolve just like all the IT guys getting replaced with off-shore workers.
The big problem is bumpers (Score:5, Informative)
Then came "integrated bumpers" and "bumperless cars". Those things can be totalled at very low speeds. Damages in minor collisions soared.
Here's the Institute for Highway Safety [hwysafety.org] on the "$3000 light replacement" issue. They write: "The Institute's continuing series of 5 mph bumper tests show that today's flimsy bumpers can result in substantial and expensive damage to vehicle lighting systems. For example, in March of this year the Institute released results of front-into-angle-barrier tests of several new models. In the tests, the housings for the headlights on both the Acura RL and Infiniti Q45 broke and had to be replaced. Largely because of the cost of the headlamp assembly, the damage to the Q45 in the angle-barrier impact totaled $2,661." That's probably the source of the "$3000" figure.
The lack of a tough bumper standard coupled with the crashworthyness requirement means that the car's crumple zones crumple in minor collisions. Hence the big repair bills.
Re:Oxymoron? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Oxymoron? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Oxymoron? (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, "strong" isn't a very precise term when talking about materials and different types of strength are better suited for different tasks.
Re:Oxymoron? (Score:5, Informative)
If the radiator mount is strong, how can it be brittle at the same time?
High tensile strength, low ductile strength.
'Strength' is a measure of energy absorbtion (Score:5, Informative)
After you undergo elastic deformation (where the item returns back to its original shape, within tolerance), you reach plastic deformation, where the item will not return to its original shape.
Different materials have different strength ratings for compression (crushing), tension (pulling), sheer opposite forces in a different place), moment (bending), etc.
Ductility the ability of an item to take on a new shape. Although it's different from tensile (tension) strength, ductility is a not a 'strength', it's a measure of maleability.
The above's off the top of my head (civil engineering undergrad 7yrs ago that I never did anything with), but the following seems to explain some of the concepts:Oh -- and don't forget that strength is typically a function of temperature. [steel's biggest enemy is fire, even though it doesn't burn.... it just becomes really weak, really quickly]
Re:Oxymoron? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Disposable cars? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Disposable cars? (Score:5, Funny)
DVD -- one hand to hold my coffee, one hand to gratify self while watching DVD porn, one hand to hold cell phone, one hand to gesture rudely at other drivers. Hands free to steer: -2
Book -- one hand to hold my coffee, one hand to hold the book, one hand to turn the page, one hand to hold cell phone, one hand to gesture rudely at other drivers. Hands free to steer: -3
Clearly, car DVDs are safer than books.
Re:I need those headlights (Score:5, Insightful)
I BRIEFLY flash my highbeams at anyone who's headlights blind me because of brightness to notify them they need to dim thier lights. But over the last couple of years I've had more and more people respond by turning on thier brights because they had these lights and it only apeared they were running with thier high beams on. I go from blinded to blinded and in pain!
I don't care how much better you can see the road, it doese no good if you get hit head on by some poor schmuck you just blinded.
Mycroft
(ps all you idiots who jack your truck up and don't recalibrate the beam angle on your headlights so as not to blind oncoming traffic should be forced to drive a small 3-4cylinder 2door for a month, at night!)
Re:3k for an HID light?? (Score:4, Interesting)
The problem with a lot of the expensive components is they have to be installed by the dealer, or somebody with the diagnostic tools to properly get something working. When the headline blew on my passat, I tried replacing the bulb. It didn't work, and the fuses were all good. So then I took it in to the dealer, who charged me for replacing the headlight. Thing is, he did something with his computer to get the passat to "accept" the new headlight
And it gets worse. I found I could buy tires for wholesale + shipping at some site online. So I bought them, but having them mounted on my rims and on the car cost an arm and a leg. Why? Because the "free mounting and balancing" at Firestone dealerships is only for tires you buy there, and it came to an arm and a leg -- more than I saved on the tires.
Re:Daytime Running Lights (Score:5, Insightful)
Keep stupid people from the consequenses of their actions and all you do is dilute the gene pool.