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Privacy Technology

Vancouver Bars Network Together to Track Patrons 721

Posted by michael from the going-to-put-a-crimp-on-dollar-draft-night dept.
Tortured Potato writes "The Vancouver Sun reports that bar owners in the area will soon start tracking patrons by photo and driver's license. 'John Teti, chairman of the coalition, said the vote is merely a formality. "We have full backing from our members," Teti said Monday....Once the system is in place, patrons will be asked to stand in front of a camera to have their picture taken and will then swipe their drivers' licence, or possibly show some other form of identification, that will automatically give the establishment the patron's name and age and show if he or she has caused trouble at any other bar on the network.' I'm glad to see that Big Brother is alive and well on the left coast." This is the next step past merely swiping licenses.
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Vancouver Bars Network Together to Track Patrons More

Vancouver Bars Network Together to Track Patrons

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  • Magnetic Strips Fail (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:26PM (#7157048)
    Just remember that magnetic stripes sometimes get demagnetized. Sometimes a big magnet gets passed over the stripe many times in a row. Later, when they swipe your card, you probably don't even know why it doesn't work. They are free to type it all in if they really need that information.
    • No bar will ever be allowed to "swipe" my card, or share my personal information with anyone if I have anything to say about it. I'd rather not go in.

    • Re:Magnetic Strips and barcodes... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by JimBobJoe ( 2758 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @06:22PM (#7157674)
      In addition to simply demagnetizing the stripe, you could re-encode the stripe with new information...like you're really over 21...or your name is really something else, et cetera.

      With barcodes you can always put a sticker with a new barcode over the original barcode. You would have to be looking really hard to notice, if done right (remember people printing up new UPC barcodes for Wal Mart products?)

      The only type of machine readable document implement that is difficult to change are simultaneously human readable...the readable characters on the passport (found on the first page on most passports and have lots of little >>>>>>>> thingies) were originally conceived on a privacy basis, because people would always know what's encoded in their passports. I cite the security advantages, since a human can read what the machine can read, and its easy for a human to double check that.

      Not that they would. When a human has a machine to read a document, they will almost always just trust what the machine says, and not check what the document says.

  • ok, now dosen't this seem a little redundant? all references to 1984 aside, why do they have to take you picture? isn't it already on your drivers liscense?

    • When I went to school.. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by raehl ( 609729 ) * <(moc.oohay) (ta) (113lhear)> on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @06:39PM (#7157809) Homepage
      At University of Illinois in Champaign, most bars had a variation of this: They had a camera at the door, it'd grab a picture of your face, then they'd slide your ID under another camera that went onto the same video tape - thus giving them a picture of the ID *AND* of you.

      Why?

      So when the cops showed up and busted underagers who got rid of their fake IDs when they saw the cops coming (which would be wise, since using one in IL gets you a 1 year suspension of your license), the bar could point to the video tape and say "We checked this person, they gave us this ID, and yes, they look like the picture on the ID", thus sparing the bar the nasty fine and potential liquor license revokation from letting in someone underage.

  • Good idea? (Score:2, Funny)

    by Qwell ( 684661 )
    This seems like a good idea for bar owners, but I get the feeling that drunk canadians aren't going to like this much...

  • Will it help with drunk driving? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by turbotalon ( 592486 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:28PM (#7157082) Homepage
    Drunk driving is (and has been for a while) one the great problems of our society. Will this help the bars track the heavy drinkers, perhaps so they can call a cab for the drunk?

    OTOH, what frickin' business is it of theirs to know where I've been? It's only someone else's business if I endanger someone else, dangit!

    • Nope. Wont do a thing to stop it. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Unknown Poltroon ( 31628 ) * <unknown_poltroon1sp@myahoo.com> on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:38PM (#7157205)
      Theres going to be a booming busisness in fake ids though. I have absoloutly no problem with handing someone a fake id with the correct birthdate, and completely bogus other information. THe law requires them to check that i am over 21. That information is accurate, and therefore i am not defrauding anyone.
      THe law does not require them to take a mugshot and collect private data for marketing.

    • Will become an Insurance mandate (Score:4, Insightful)

      by swb ( 14022 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:40PM (#7157233)
      I'm sure a system like this will become almost mandatory, as the insurance companies begin to charge triple for bars that don't participate in this system.

      Sure, you can have a bar without this system, it's just it won't be financially viable as your montlhy insurance premium will be much higher than your competitors.
    • OTOH, what frickin' business is it of theirs to know where I've been? It's only someone else's business if I endanger someone else, dangit!

      Well if you've been in brawls or done damage to other bars then I for one really wouldn't want you at my bar. I tend to think of it as one bar tender calling me and telling me "Watch out for this punk. He was in here the other day causing a ruckus and isn't worth the trouble." except that its done easily and automatically.

      After all, its a private establishment in a ca
    • Actually, the government has forced it to be their business, since the bar and bartenders can be held liable if you are served alcohol in their establishment, leave, and drunkenly hit someone or something. These are called Social Host Liability laws, or "Dram Shop [columbia.edu]" acts.

      In fact, you could argue that the bars would be negligent in not instituting such a system. They also have monetary incentive since they will probably get insurance breaks for doing so.

  • I won't go to a place that tries to scan my lic. (Score:5, Informative)

    by Darmox ( 16016 ) * <chris.cs@wmich@edu> on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:29PM (#7157088) Journal
    I make it a point to not go to places that want to scan my license... and when I'm in the right mood, I drink a lot... really a lot (usually without causing trouble, never been cut off, in a barfight, or eight-sixed)

    I mean, *really a lot*...
    if you want me, I'll be down the street at the place that doesn't care who I am, giving them a bunch of money.

  • Different culture (Score:2, Interesting)

    by adrianbaugh ( 696007 )
    I guess the US alcohol culture is different to that in Britain, but if that were tried here the thing that immediately strikes me as problematic is when (say, just before a big soccer match) a big crowd of 50 or so people enter the pub. Queues in that kind of situation tend to be bad enough, with people 3 deep at the bar, but if they had to muck about with swipe cards (and there'll always be the odd 10% who haven't been to the bar before and need their photo and details entering onto the system) the queues
    • I guess the US alcohol culture is different to that in Britain...

      No doubt that it is, but the topic at hand involves Vancouver, B.C., Canada.

    • They are talking about (dance) clubs that tend to have line ups anyways. The pub-type bars won't require this.

    • welcome their new American overlords.
    • Vancouver *CANADA*, not the US.
    • I guess the US alcohol culture is different to that in Britain

      I infer from this comment that you are currently engaging in "research" on the topic at hand (intoxication), because:

      Acording to the article, this is taking place in Vancouver, British Columbia. According to my atlas, Vancouver is in Canada.

      Of course, I was able to figure this out before I checked my atlas, because the story is hosted on "canada.com".

    • Re:Different culture (Score:4, Informative)

      by Unknown Relic ( 544714 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @06:13PM (#7157583) Homepage
      I live in Vancouver, and one thing that you need to realize is that this system is going to be implemented in night clubs, not pubs. Line ups for clubs downtown on Friday or Saturday nights are already routinely an hour as early as 9pm, and so taking the time to swipe a drivers license isn't going to add anything to the overall time frame. In any case, its already policy for these bars to check everyone's ID, and as such everyone is already trained to be prepared and to not hold things up.

      In the end, I actually think that this is a really good idea. There has been a growing problem with date rape drugs as of late, and measures such as this will help at least a little bit to make the bars safer.

      If you read the article very little information is actually garnered from swiping the license. The only information contained on the magnetic strip on BC drivers licenses is the same information that's physically printed out, including date of birth. Even if it does nothing for safety, this system will have help keep 16 year olds out of the bars since IDs will become that much more difficult to forge. That's not something I have a problem with.

      • Its NEVER a good idea (Score:3, Interesting)

        by nurb432 ( 527695 )
        Sorry, but i dont buy the 'its for the kids' sort of attitude.

        There is NO reason to give up your freedom and privacy for false security.

        You would think people would have learned that by now..

        Anyone here remember Hitler? Stalin?

  • In other news... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Atario ( 673917 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:29PM (#7157095) Homepage
    ...Bars to start selling "most active" lists to liquor companies (complete with name and address) -- "to bring you offers you might be interested in".

  • ...patrons are really going to put up with this. I see a great market springing up for drive-through bottle shops and parties at home.

    • Re:Sure... (Score:2, Informative)

      by randito ( 159822 )
      umm, this is vancouver we are talking about. alcohol is more closely regulated than marijuana.
      • NO drinking after 2
      • NO drinking after midnight on sundays.
      • NO selling of hard alchohol except in government liqour stores
      • NO drinking in public
      • NO smoking in bars

      this is a place where during large events like fireworks and newyears, the cops stand at the subway exits downtown and search (illegally) and confiscate peoples' unopened and hidden alchohol.

      You want to have drive-through bottle shops??

  • I am NOT gonna stand up for a fucking mugshot to have a beer. Ill go to the bar next door, ill go to the bar down the street, or ill just go hte hell home and have a beer.
    • I am NOT gonna stand up for a fucking mugshot to have a beer. Ill go to the bar next door, ill go to the bar down the street, or ill just go hte hell home and have a beer.

      Beer at a bar: $5 for 1
      Beer at home: $7 for 12
      Making your own bar in Homer's basement: priceless

  • Brilliant idea (Score:5, Funny)

    by Lawbeefaroni ( 246892 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:30PM (#7157102) Homepage
    That works for me.

    1. Move to Vancouver
    2. Open a bar
    3. Don't treat your patrons as criminals
    4. Profit
    • I doubt all the bars will do this. When I was in res at UBC, our house went on pub crawls to all the really scuzzy places (which didn't check ID), so the first years (ie, 19) could drink, too.
      • our house went on pub crawls to all the really scuzzy places (which didn't check ID), so the first years (ie, 19) could drink, too.
        I hope you've learned since then that the drinking age in BC is 19.
  • "We can start making Vancouver's nightlife a little safer," Cameron said.

    We can't guarantee it's going to eradicate violence, but at least it's a step in the right direction."

    Vancouver police are supportive.

    There have been more altercations between drunken clubbers since the city extended drinking hours to 4 a.m. and the department has spent nearly $120,000 for extra police officers to work the late-night patrol since the hours were extended July 4, Constable Sarah Bloor said.

    How about closing bars

    • Why close the bars at all? This is basic freedom people. I don't agree with drinking, but you have the right to destroy your senses if you so choose (you do not however have the right to get my support for your treatment after you destroy your body. you also don't have any right to do anything drunk or not that would endanger the safety of anyone other than yourself). Want to drink all night, that is your buisness. Get off work at 4am (your 8 hour shift happens to be 8pm-4am) and want a quick drink?

    • Would someone please explain to me why bars can't serve alcohol after a certain time to begin with? I'm sure their must be a good reason, as just about every municipality in the U.S. has set some sort of arbitrary time when bars can no longer sell liquor. But I can't really think of a logical reason, especially considering the "cut off" time varies quite a bit from place to place.
      • Well, Vancouver used to have the bars close (2am) a while before the buses stopped running (2:30 or 3?), which made sense to me, as it made it far easier and safer to get home. Then they increased the bar hours and shortened the bus hours, which is just stupid...
  • Swiping licenses is used to prevent fake ids and it works very well. They are simply combining this with a way to keep track of trouble makers. Take off your tinfoil hats
    • Who decides who is a trouble maker though? Think about that for a while and see just how much of a sliding scale a system like this can have once in place.

    • Re:Swiping licenses (Score:5, Insightful)

      by pongo000 ( 97357 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @06:02PM (#7157494)
      You're pulled over one night for having a headlight out. A quick computer check shows you having visitied 4 bars that evening. Reasonable suspicion indicates that you may have been drinking. The cop's BAC meter is giving off-base responses, so the cop decides to exercise his perogative to take you in for suspicion of DWI.

      You're taken to the county jail; a wrecker is dispatched to pick up your vehicle. You sit in the tank for several hours with all the other riff-raff, hoping to God no one takes a liking to your shoes. You're denied a phone call, because you haven't been booked yet. Finally, the jail supervisor gets to your case, but since it's been several hours, the supervisor decides if there was any alcohol before, it's all but metabolized, and there are bigger fish to fry in the tank with you. So they let you go.

      Since you're downtown, you have to call a cab to take you to the wrecker station, which is of course all the way across town. After a hefty taxi fare, paid in cash, you walk up to the window to pick up your car. Oh, they tell you, you'll need a release from the PD to do that. Plus, we only take cash. By now dawn is breaking, and you wish to God you hadn't volunteered to be a designated driver for your friends.

      I'll keep my tinfoil hat on, thank you very much.
  • I can't believe they would name it Vigilence. Is this some sort of joke???

    I can think of 20 Orwellian references (in addition to the obvious ones actually written by Orwell) in mainstream media tying that particular word promenently to very bad Big Brother things.

    "Most people are willing to give up a bit of anonymity for safety" Owen Cameron, co-owner of the creator of this monstrosity. Unfortunately, he is right. What they don't understand is just HOW MUCH anonymity they are giving up for such a SMAL
  • I'm sure that 98% of the populace won't care, but I for one wouldn't accept that... even swiping the data from the card is unacceptable.

    If all Vancouver bars do this, I would still either go elsewhere or not go to the bar at all. Sorry... bars don't have a monopoly on entertainment.

    It's starting to sound like we're moving towards where you need "papers" to travel beyond city boundaries... I thought that era was over already!

    MadCow.

  • This has been going on in Winnipeg for years... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by sputnikid ( 191152 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:35PM (#7157165)
    Ever since I was 18 (1998) in Winnipeg (its in Canada, for those educated in the US) they have been doing this.

    For all of the bars affiliated with the CanadInns Corp (www.canadinns.com) this was the standard routine for getting into a bar.

    - empty pockets into a basket
    - walk through metal detector
    - pick up belongings
    - hand bouncer your ID
    - bouncer photographs the license
    - pay cover

    And if you happen to be male they also check your name against their database to see if you have been banned from the bar or caused problems on an earlier occasion.

    This is really nothing new other than the fact that different owners are now sharing the information.
    • Good god? Is it really that bad in Canada. Was Michael Moore lying to us? The only time I've ever had to do that in the States was to get on an airplane... or into a courthouse come to think of it.

      Never a bar. Of course the bar I usually go to is surrounded by corn fields but... ;)
    • The metal detector part most of all. See I live in Arizona. Here, it's legal to carry a gun either openly or concealed. You need a permit to conceal it, but openly anyone can do, no permit required. Plenty of people do carry guns regularly too, or knives (covered by the same law as guns). However, they aren't allowed in bars. You either need to leave them in your car, or check them at the door.

      So, being that lots of people have and carry guns, you'd think here would be a more likely candidate for metal dec

  • There was a day... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by DaedalusLogic ( 449896 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:35PM (#7157168)
    When it used to be called the hospitality business. If my neigborhood bars were as friendly as the DMV asking for pictures and keeping profiles on customer behavior... They wouldn't survive. This will not survive long... Think of your average college sports bar trying to keep up with photos of every out of town fan on game day.

    Keep the tech out of bars for the good of us all. Even the idea of a glass that reports when a drink is getting empty is a waste of time. Remember that story? Work on the people skills and good judgement of your staff first.

  • Just what we need (Score:5, Insightful)

    by buckminster ( 170559 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:36PM (#7157176) Homepage
    A reason for people over 21 to use a fake ID.

    This sort of policy will almost certainly backfire.
  • The whole reasoning behind doing this is quite understandable. There has been several fatal gang shootings in bars in Vancouver recently. This is one way to keep them from killing innocent bystanders.

    Besides, if you don't like it, you could always just go next door to Burnaby or something. It's not like they're far apart.

    • You can justify pretty much anything with at least some benefits. Hell, even SiteFinder was useful to some people, but we all know what it did to the masses.

      Anything that groups together the general public as having the potential for mass-violence and then cards and categorizes them thus is not a good thing, despite fringe benefits.

  • Sometimes you want to go... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:37PM (#7157188)
    ...where everybody knows your name (and age, address, habits, history and picture.)
  • "So I say 'What, are you going to offer a discount for alcoholics?'

    And Marty chuckles, but I can see, watching him that he's thinking, like maybe its not such a bad idea."


    What I know about is Texas. And out here, you're on your own.

  • Normally I am against any sort of Big Brother sort of thing like this. However, I live in Vancouver and frequent many of the bars and clubs here. And as of late, there has been a marked increase in violence. Vancouver is home to many gangs such as Motorcycle and Asian Gange who do not always get along.

    A few weeks ago there was a shootout at a popular night spot called Loft6, and numerous innocent bystandards were shot and the shooters have yet to be identified. If a system such as this were in place, they

  • Welcome To Winnipeg! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ironicsky ( 569792 )
    In Winnipeg Manitoba(Which for you who dont know is in Canada), almost 90% of our bars have had this system in place for years and hasnt had any reportings of being abused.

    Here is how our system works. You walk through a metal detector, get patted down, they put your drivers license under a magnifier/camera, and take your picture, both are saved in their system.

    Now, if you do cause trouble, or the cops come looking for you, they simply say "yes he's here" and point you out. If you do something dumb at the
  • We get a lot of meat-heads going out to the bars in Vancouver, but lately it seems we're having shootings [canada.com], some of them pretty bad [canoe.ca]. It seems to me this is an attempt to stop this sort of thing from happening. That and the fights, stabbings, etc.

    One thing to note, this is not all bars, only those who want in on the system and are willing to shell out for it. There will be a lot of bars in the Vancouver area that don't want in on the system, or can't afford to do it, so it won't happen for them. Largely
  • remember that Equifax has done this for years. I think credit is a lot more invasive than being allowed in bars IMHO; although, you may really like bars.

  • Cheers! (Score:5, Funny)

    by happyfrogcow ( 708359 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:43PM (#7157265)
    Brings new meaning to the Cheers themesong "you wanna go where everybody knows your name..."

    I can picture it now. Norm opens door, swipes ID. Photobot robot declares "Norm!" in computerized chorus of voices then snaps photo of Norm. Normbot then rolls over to the bar and asks for a glass of motor oil but is denied for a drunken battlebot fights with Cliffbot. Woodybot has had a hard disk failure and begins mumbling about his days back on the moisture farm with C3PO...

    Hmm, my thoughs seem to have degenerated. what was I talking about?

  • Just go to California and get your fake license (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    [newsmax.com]
    California Makes Getting A License Easy. All you need is a fake mexican consular id and you can be anybody. Fudging the picture will take some work though.

  • The funny thing about Vancouver is that as progressive as it is in many ways, the liquor laws are anachronistically draconian. This has resulted in few decent drinking establishments. There are few traditional-type pubs - just a lot of sleazy bars and clubs that tend to be populated with bimbos and knuckle-dragging frat boys. These aren't places you go to hang out and have a few drinks with friends. For this reason, this tracking practice doesn't upset me as it otherwise might. Seriously, the people that go

    • The funny thing about Vancouver is that as progressive as it is in many ways, the liquor laws are anachronistically draconian.
      ...
      a lot of sleazy bars and clubs that tend to be populated with bimbos and knuckle-dragging frat boys

      And people that stare when you say anachronistically draconian...

  • Astounding Implications... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by cliffiecee ( 136220 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:46PM (#7157303) Homepage Journal
    Just spewing thoughts here...

    Can this system keep track of a 'bar tab' for me as well? Does it provide ANY value to me as a customer? (update: after RTFA, the answer given was 'give-up-your-anonymity-for-"safety"')

    What if I get 'blacklisted'? How long does my name stay on the list?

    Can I SEE the list? Will they at least TELL me I'm on the list?

    Wait a second... Am I on this list automatically, once my picture/ID is recorded? Before I've even done anything? (See previous line)

    I'm assuming the Police would LOVE access to this list, so they'll have it, officially or not. (update: I just RTFA; YES, they can subpoena info from the list)

    I'm assuming local employers will LOOOVE access to this list... A reason to fire current employees or refuse future candidates.

    (update: after RTFA, and I love the comparison of this system with renting a car. I didn't know going to a bar was so serious...)

  • great! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by pixel-jockey ( 714223 )
    One passing comment on my way out of the bar about how the 200 pound gorilla with no neck gaurding the door has a girlfried who's boob's are way too big - and I'm 'barred' from every local establishment within the speed of a mouse click. Just what we need. More bouncers on power trips. It sounds like this system is just screaming with abuse potential.

  • Notable by its absence... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Vainglorious Coward ( 267452 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:53PM (#7157392) Journal

    It is telling, if not surprising, that in all of the media coverage, I have yet to hear the bar owners address the issue of privacy legislation. BC's forthcoming private sector privacy law, Bill 38 [gov.bc.ca], due to come into effect Jan 1st 2004, imposes very specific requirements upon organisations handling personally identifiable information, including collection, use, consent and access, among others. I'd be interested to hear BC's Information and Privacy Commissioner [oipc.bc.ca]'s view on this proposed scheme - as far as I can tell, the bar owners have not made any consideration of the legal duties this legislation will impose upon them.

  • Good idea, here's why... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ashitaka ( 27544 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:59PM (#7157455) Homepage
    Not everyone wants to be in a bar with a crowd of drunken rowdies. The ones who will be the most averse to this will be the troublemakers who will go elsewhere.

    I don't go to bars here in Vancouver, I do go to pubs in the U.K. (at least not near a football ground). I'm looking for a quiet, relaxed atmosphere where I can enjoy a drink with my mates or my wife (not necessarily in that order).

    The picture taking is a bit much, though. With regards to potential swiping damage, should they use the 2D bar code as an alternative as BC's pretty driver's licenses [counterfeitlibrary.com] have both?

  • Living Downtown Vancouver... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by nettdata ( 88196 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:59PM (#7157458) Homepage
    I live downtown Vancouver, 2 blocks from the "granville row" that they refer to in the article.

    I've played in the house band of one of these clubs, and know a LOT of people that work and play in these clubs.

    I think this is a GOOD thing.

    Even as we speak, a friend of mine is STILL recuperating from a severe shit-kicking that happened within one of the bars over 2 months ago.

    She (yes, SHE) was minding her own business, when 2 guys bumped into her boyfriend, who turned around with the typical "WTF!?", and the 2 guys almost killed him. I wish I were being over-dramatic, but they literally ALMOST KILLED HIM. They knew how to fight, and they went at it. One of them even pulled out a collapsable baton and hit him while he was down. It should be mentioned that the guy who got shit-kicked was knocked down and unconscious before he even finished the "WTF!?".

    At this point, his girlfriend jumped in and tried to get them to stop, so they started beating her with the baton.

    This happened in less than 30 seconds, in front of a horrified bartender, and the guys were gone before any bouncers could arrive... and they weren't slow to get there.

    Even now the bar-scene staff, Vancouver Police, and RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police), are trying to figure out who the guys were and how to find them.

    The sad part is that it's not an isolated incedent. In-bar muggings and shootings are on the rise, with a number of East Indian and Asian gangs going nuts on each other.

    My whole philosophy is that it's private property, it's reasonable for the bars to ask you to do this to get in, and at the end of the day, you don't HAVE to go there. You don't like their policies, don't go.

    If anything, I'd rather see this story being discussed from a "technology-based solution to a problem" angle rather than a knee-jerk "oh my God they're coming to get us, put on your tinfoil hats!" angle.
    • they literally ALMOST KILLED HIM ... One of them even pulled out a collapsable baton and hit him while he was down ... they started beating her with the baton ... In-bar muggings and shootings are on the rise

      Hmmm, somehow I doubt we'll hear about this in Michael Moore's next documentary [suntimes.com].

  • Vancouver used to be my favorite city (Score:3, Interesting)

    by LoRider ( 16327 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @05:59PM (#7157460) Homepage Journal
    It still is because I probably don't go to bars there that will implement this type silliness. Vancouver is an awesome city. You can get drunk off of really strong beer and smoke all the pot you want.

    As for bars taking pictures of people, that's just stupid. I don't know about in Canada, but in Washington it's illegal to serve people that are visibly drunk. Rather than treating all your customers like criminals the bars should be hiring better bartenders and waitresses that can tell when someone is drinking too much. You are supposed observe the person's personality and when they start acting like assholes toss them out with the garbage, that's how it supposed to work. If they are just an asshole to begin with toss them out too, who needs 'em. If you can't handle your liquor don't drink with the big boys.

    I have spent a considerable portion of my life in bars, and not always nice ones, and I have rarely ever seen a barfight. I know they happen but the fact is that the vast majority of people, probably over 95%, have never been involved in a bar fight. It doesn't take an expert to figure out who the troublemakers are - they are probably the same ones from last night.

  • Jeez (Score:5, Informative)

    by m0nkyman ( 7101 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @06:09PM (#7157556) Homepage Journal
    Back when I was a doorman/bouncer, we used this thing called a memory. We had a network too...If I turfed somebody, they were barred for life. If I was out drinking at another bar, and I saw somebody I had barred, I'd tell the doorman that the guy was likely to be a problem and he'd do likewise. This was in Ottawa, which is a good sized city.
    No bar in Vancouver that institutes this will ever get my business, and I live in that neck of the woods. And I drink and tip heavily (parse that how you will).
    Bars that want my photograph before they'll take my money. What will they think of next?

  • Don't Abuse the Big Brother Image (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Featureless ( 599963 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @06:25PM (#7157696) Journal
    There are plenty of places Big Brother is urgently applicable today. Just not here.

    Central to George Orwell's image is the notion of coercion. You are certainly coerced if the government requires you to participate in an invasive information system by law. And there are many ways you can experience more subtle coercion "by policy" as well... because you ostensibly have the freedom not to participate, but only in theory.

    This seems like one case when this kind of technology is OK - because participating in it is something people can choose to do - or not - by exercising their options in a healthy, competitive marketplace.

    For the sake of comparison, POTS telephone companies (regional monopolies; barrier to entry: illegal), or CPU companies (only two x86 players; barrier to entry: inconceivable) are not "healthy, competitive" marketplaces.

    Monopolies like Microsoft requiring the installation and maintenance of DRM systems? Coercion, possible because of an (extremely) unhealthy marketplace.

    Verizon saying "I'm going to sell your phone records to marketers?" Coercion. Where are your alternatives if you want to opt out?

    But bars aren't like that at all.

    I couldn't see myself going to any place that did this, but I don't think I could say they shouldn't be allowed to do it. Let them track and photograph their patrons in ways even the Vegas casinos won't do. No one forces you to go a bar. Opening a bar is within the grasp of many, many entrepeneurs. This means (within reason) you will be able to opt out. This kind of security measure should succeed, or fail (and who can guess which, in the end?), in that marketplace based on its merits.

    What I worry about? If that's what it takes to keep bars running well, what does it say about our society?

  • I think this is a fantastic system. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Unknown Poltroon ( 31628 ) * <unknown_poltroon1sp@myahoo.com> on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @06:27PM (#7157714)
    This way, any guy who works at the bar, or is friendly with the bouncer, can find out who that really hot chick is at the end of the bar. Get her home address, wait outsdie for her when she gets home. Call her to say hi.

    Dont tell me it wont be used for this. I used to work someplace making IDs on a computer system. The security guys would come in all the time and ask "Hey, girl with brown hair, blue eyes, in this building, whats her name?" Pull up the list of pictures, get the info. Then they can go look at the security system to look up her schedule, then just happen to meet her going in or coming out of the building. Theres a very, very thin line between manufactruing an excuse to meet a cute girl, and stalking.

  • Surveillance for some time (Score:5, Informative)

    by Xofer D ( 29055 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @07:39PM (#7158301) Homepage Journal
    Since I live near Vancouver and am writing a paper on privacy right now, I decided to look into this a little bit. Here's what I've found:
    1. The organization in question, Barwatch, donated $5000 to the incredibly right-wing Liberal party (go figure) that currently runs the province. The same organization was behind a fight with the worker's compensation board of BC regarding the rights of workers not to have to work in a cloud of second-hand smoke. The Liberals changed the law to remove the WCB ventilation requirements.
    2. The same liberals have passed (I think) some privacy legislation [gov.bc.ca] that allows disclosure of personal information collected by observation at a performance, sports meet, or a similar event that is open to the public (Think Tampa superbowl), and allows organisations not to tell individuals what information they have, "if the disclosure of the personal information would reveal confidential commercial information that if disclosed, could, in the opinion of a reasonable person, harm the competitive position of the organization". In other words, it's pretty wide open.
    3. This isn't the first time Barwatch has cranked up surveillance of its patrons: This article [www.mta.ca] mentions that video taping has been going on in Barwatch bars for three years before the article was written, in 1999. It also demonstrates that while these programs are justified by safety concerns, they are also used for marketing data.
    4. These guys have some power: Apart from the smoking legislation, Barwatch also lobbied to implement bus service later, and allow bars open later [journalism.ubc.ca]. Recently, the BC Liberal party allowed bars to be open until 4 AM on Fridays, and Translink began offering night bus service to at least SFU [www.sfu.ca].
    5. On his geocities resume web site, Bradley Shende [geocities.com] claims to be the Barwatch founder. According to his site, "Barwatch is an original concept. It's purpose was to establish communication between licensed establishments and the various branches of municipal law enforcement and regulation to create a forum of co-operation rather than adversity, and to set standards by which we would all operate our licensed premises. The organization has been a success over the years and is now branched out into the US and all over Canada." Apparently he is also "a quick study on systems and software". Nice win2k experience, Bradley.
    6. Barwatch has changed their phone number, and no longer has a web presence (www.barwatch.org as posted on Shende's web site). I was unable to contact them before posting this. The often cited name of the chair and spokesman of Barwatch is Vance Campbell.
    I'm usually a proponent of strong authentication; I sign all my mail with gpg. However, I know that this makes me uncomfortable and I probably won't be going to these establishments.

    • These guys have some power: Apart from the smoking legislation, Barwatch also lobbied to implement bus service later, and allow bars open later [journalism.ubc.ca]. Recently, the BC Liberal party allowed bars to be open until 4 AM on Fridays, and Translink began offering night bus service to at least SFU [www.sfu.ca].

      Good lord, they lobbied for late night bus service? Those bastards! :)

      I'm not going to try and defend them on anything else, but Vancouver really needs late night bus service... if they con

  • Too bad it won't work (Score:3, Informative)

    by gordguide ( 307383 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @09:31PM (#7159023)
    Interesting concept, I hope they get good use out of it for the next 3 months. After that, they're toast, because that's when (01Jan04) Canada's privacy legislation covers all businesses in Canada. Currently only firms that either:

    a) transfer identity information over provincial boundaries b) collect information on behalf of the Federal or Provincial governments
    or c) are a government agency ... are covered by the legislation.

    A couple of points:
    a) The business must provide specific details as to what, if anything, they will do with personal information collected;
    b) They must get your specific permission to expand on whatever they said they would do with it when they collected the information;
    c) They must not collect more information than is absolutely neccessary to perform whatever purpose they described in a) above;
    d) The information must be collected for a bona fide reason; ie if they don't need your name to sell you a pack of gum for cash, forget it;
    e) If there is no bona fide business reason to collect such information, they must sell you whatever service they provide when you refuse to identify yourself.

    I can casually see several legal objections to what the bars are intending to do. Look for this to die a quiet death.

  • Fearmongering (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Sentry21 ( 8183 ) on Tuesday October 07, 2003 @11:48PM (#7159997) Journal
    Vancouver Bars Network Together to Track Patrons

    Interesting way to put the spin on it. I have another idea.

    Vancouver Bars Network Together to Protect Customers

    If I go to a bar and bump into the wrong person, I'm going to get my ass kicked (if I'm lucky), or, like another poster mentioned, I'm going to get beaten within an inch of my life. This is a big reason I don't go to bars. The worst part is, if it happens, I'm probably on my own. In a city the size of Vancouver, it's not too easy to find someone based on what four people almost saw.

    With this system in place, the bars know where I go, but they also know who was there, with photos, so if I get laid out, I can say 'yeah, that's the guy' and they have records of him swiping in/out of the bar, so they know he was there.

    I don't meet a lot of belligerant people, but when I do, coincidentally, most of them are drunk. If I'm given reassurances that there will be penalties for people who harm me, I'll feel a lot safer going out and having a good time. And that translates into me spending more money. That being said, having to empty one's pockets, as another poster mentioned is a real pain in the ass.

    --Dan

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