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SCO Shows 80 Lines of Evidence?
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Remember, UNIX spelled backwards is XINU. -- Mt.
Remember, UNIX spelled backwards is XINU. -- Mt.
When... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:When... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:When... (Score:4, Insightful)
Look - lines 2022 to 2102 were added by... Caldera!?!
Has anybody considered (Score:5, Insightful)
Especially as we have 80 lines of identical code including comments which is the real kicker.
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Interesting)
SCO does not do all this, which does not make it look honest.
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Interesting)
And umm, how can the Linux users be guilty if IBM put their code into the kernel source? They can't. If it was about proprietary software, noone would say all the licensees are guilty. But it isn't really another case then this - IBM gave it to the community under GPL. Some proprietary company gave it to the users under a proprietary license. Where's the difference? It's not the source, but I don't think that is important since the binary is generated from the copyrighted code, so it is copyrighted, too.
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Insightful)
As we know from previous inverviews IBM hsa a _very_ strict disclosure policy where every bit of code relsed has to be checked first. It's also been noted that the Linux labs are *not* allowed to view source code from AIX.
I imagine the reason they don't want to publically give out this information because that would allow the OSS community to find out where the code actually came from. I'm guessing it's third party and neither SCO or Linux has IP rights over the code in question.
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Insightful)
It's been said here before - if SCO tell us which bits are "stolen", those bits would be replaced very fast by the kernel developers. This would not be optimum for SCO, because they could not then demand licensing from all Linux users. If they can get a judge to confirm the theft without disclosing to the public where the stolen code is, then they'll have a legal leg to stand on when holding the entire Unix world to ranso
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Interesting)
Imagine the RIAA comes and tells you that one of the CDs in your collection is a pirated copy, but they won't tell you which, and you must start immediately paying them royalties, along with fees for past damages.
Doesn't sound very ethical now does it? "Fair" would be indicated the infringing code so that it could be removed, and charging for damages of the use up to the point in time which it was removed. Making someone pay while not giving the opportunity to fix the problem is simply extortion.
wrong (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Interesting)
It's no excuse that their code verification process didn't pick up this fact - IANAL, but doesn't this mean SCO have released their IP under GPL?
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, and it's true - however your conclusion has no merit.
This would not be optimum for SCO
Wrong. This would indeed be optimum for SCO.
If the alleged material has any value at all to SCO, SCO would want to stop people from distributing it as soon as possible, so that they can claim damages.
By failing to disclose the alleged code, all they're doing is proving to any judge involved that the code is worthless, and therefore should not be considered when assessing damages to SCO.
If they can get a judge to confirm the theft without disclosing to the public where the stolen code is, then they'll have a legal leg to stand on when holding the entire Unix world to ranso
Bullshit. All a judge would do is order people to stop distributing the "stolen code" - and a judge can't do that without telling people what the hell it is that they should stop doing.
Anything else would be extortion.
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously, do you believe that all corporations act ethically all the time ?.
I could bring up M$ as an example of the USA's failure to stop companies acting unethically.
Instead I will just point out the fact that a lot of goods sold in the west are made in unethical condtions (clothes made in sweatshops, diamonds mined by children, etc.).
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:3, Insightful)
No one is claiming that our government has ever been the ideal tool for harnessing the unethical behavior of companies - though it's done a decent job at times, this sort of economic micromanagement is very difficult to pull off and many think it's a bad idea. However, the point that you missed is that maximization of profit is not usually considered a reasonable motive for morally bankrupt behavior. Yes, Nike an
Re: Consider this (Score:5, Insightful)
> > Mensa member, beware of the high IQ
> Mensa member, beware of the large swollen head and general "I am better than you" attitude.
Mensa membership apparently doesn't require you to be smart enough to know that you shouldn't brag about your IQ in a forum with ~ half a million readers.
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Insightful)
Either: 1) SCO's code is included in the Linux kernel, and is therefore irrevocably publically available and no longer qualifies as trade-secret;
or 2) SCO's code is not in the Linux kernel and may still be a valuable trade-secret. Or it may not, but that's not Linux's problem.
There isn't a third option, and all this dicking around with NDA's and crap like that is merely making SCO look stupid.
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Interesting)
Not true. A very likely source for that code is that it came from Unix code which was covered by the BSDi/UC Berkeley lawsuit and has been entered into the public domain. Loads of code in Linux has come from BSD, which in turn came from UNIX, just like SCO's code. But a judge has already taken care of that code - it's known to be good. But so long as noone can check (because of the NDA), noone will know. Or it could have been copied the other way, and now SCO's code is GPL'ed
-- Rich
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Insightful)
Find out which IBM engineers commited patches to the kernel.
Find out which SCO engineers commited patches to the kernel.
You just narrowed it down. It's probably pretty easy to find out what code it is.
It's also just as likely that SCO copied the code from Linux, since we can trust Linus' logs, but SCO could fabricate thier own logs at a moments notice.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Insightful)
- The code, including line numbers, filenames, and the whole sourcefile from UNIXWARE it is based on.
- The SCO changelog showing the code goes back a long time.
- Linux's changelog showing the code doesn't go back a long time.
Until SCO provide specifics to the Linux development community, they've provided *nothing*. Listen here, troll-boy... Do you have any IDEA how many lines of code there are in Linux? SCO hasn't said where this code is, hasn't given any description of the code, and hasn't given any evidence that they didn't copy it from Linux or introduce it into Linux themselves. They've provided no evidence, just FUD.I've never said that it was enough for SCO to reveal some code to somebody. I'm saying that SCO needs to reveal enough code to figure out what actually happened to the general public. So far, they've made *nothing* public.
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Insightful)
The code has yet to be given out to the community for consideration, it was shown to two heavily biased analysts under a strict NDA.
The DiDio character is a Windows consultant, and the Aberdeen group released a report last November that Linux was "the most vulnerable operating system". Yeah, that's the same as giving it to the community for them to verify SCO's outlandish claims.
Besides, copied or not, you already have it. Just look in the Linux source. Yeah, sure. We'll get right on that. (In case you missed the sarcasm, eighty lines of code is a friggin' needle in the haystack! I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out all they implications that fact has...)
Why should SCO bother?
You're right about that. It's not in SCO's best interests now to give everyone the information required to determine what the facts are. It's in their best interest to drag this out as long as possible, to spread as much Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt as possible, and to control public opinion by controlling the flow of information.
My guess? There may well be some code, but I'm betting that SCO didn't do their homework (corporate managers rarely do). It could be from the BSDs, from public-domain literature, or from SCalderO's own UNIX-Linux integration project which I've read referenced in other posts here.
In any case, I have no doubt that SCO has no case here. For further proof, go read the OSI position paper on the matter [opensource.org]. A lengthy read, but very enlightening, and basically shows the SCO claims to be rather without merit. Or is your mind as closed as your source?
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Insightful)
What this shows me is that OSS unfortunately lets jerks into the party as well as people who want to play fair and make a contribution to the community. These people better enjoy it while it lasts and hope for their big payday, cause they'll never eat lunch in this town again...
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Interesting)
However, let's assume that there are right -- they own Unix, and there are segments of code, up to 80 lines in length, that match between Linux and Unix. What does that show? Still nothing in itself. The code could also be in BSD, in which case it would be free and clear from any SCO claims (although if it lacks the appropriate copyright label, the Berkeley regents might have to send their agents over to rough Linus up a bit (grin)). Or something like that. The code might well be public domain stuff (from an academic paper, from some code library, etc.), so nothing to see.
But assume SCO does own the code. We just rewrite those sections and call it good, right? Wrong. The sections are evidence of contamination, and it will be difficult to determine exactly how far the contamination goes. If someone could copy and paste SCO code, he/she was also probably doing other things -- opening the Unix code in one window, and writing a similar Linux routine in another window, referring back to the Unix code for a "how-to". This is also illegal, as such things need to be done via clean room reverse engineering procedures.
SCO will then argue that the contamination is very deep. IBM and the Open Source people in general will argue that the contamination is insignificant. It might be hard to tell in some cases. SCO will argue that the design patterns in use in Linux were stolen from Unix, and that those design patterns are crucial IP. Everything built around that design will have to be rewritten, probably with a different design to prove that we aren't continuing to steal their precious design. And then everything that depends on that design will also have to be rewritten. Etc. Depending on how deep the problem goes (according to what the courts decide), it may or may not be feasible to rewrite the affected portions and send out patches. The problem is that lawyers may have to get involved, certifying that the portions rewritten comply with all necessary laws and no longer intrude on SCO's IP. It may be necessary to abandon portions of Linux entirely, perhaps importing replacement code from BSD or the like.
In the meantime, all of the big fish who have been using Linux will be sued for royalties. I'm sure that many suits will be dismissed, but some will be upheld.
Whether or not SCO wins, this will be a wakeup call. Before accepting GNU tools for use in the business, managers are now going to be asking, "how can we be certain that this code is legit?" It is a very valid question. All source has pedigree -- are there any portions of this code that might be discovered to belong to someone else? If so, what protects us from having that code yanked out from under us? Somebody could sue us for damages, refuse to license the code to us, and shut down our entire operation.
If SCO wins, beyond the damage to Linux itself, a lot of people are going to get very nervous about using open source products in general in the business world. Even if they lose, things are still going to get a bit more tense, as you may have to prove the code's purebred pedigree before you can use it to run your IT department.
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Interesting)
They've muddied the waters by sending out their C&D to Linux customers, but they would have to prove the copyright breach pretty convincingly in the IBM case to get settlements from other companies -- and judges are normally very reluctant to decide issues outside the merits of the case at hand (although, of course, IANAL).
There's always the chance that, if they manage to win this case, they'd be feeling pretty pumped, and take on IBM or another company in a wider-ranging suit which could cause the sorts of contamination problems you describe.
Before accepting GNU tools for use in the business, managers are now going to be asking, "how can we be certain that this code is legit?"
This is a question that all business users of code (open and closed) should be asking -- as MSSQL users found out when their use of the product was considered contributory infringement in the patent case Microsoft lost a little while ago. If the company selling you the product/service can't indemnify you from things like this, you need to be prepared for that contingency yourself.
What evidence of origin,ownership,copyright + GPL (Score:5, Interesting)
What proof did SCO present for the origin of both fragments of source code?
What proof did SCO present to show the SCO code did not originally from old BSD,Linux or public domain publications?
Who put the SCO source into Linux? - Was put there by Old Novell/SCO/Caldera in the first place?
What proof did SCO provide to show that the person had access to SCO's Unix sources?
The latter question raises another issue. The similarity is just as likely to be due to both operating systems performing the same role. Form is often directed by the function it performs. Function and variable names are often dictated by the API and common terminology.
Both the current Linux and Unix kernel developers have attended the similar university courses and read the same publicly available documentation. The works of W. Richard Stevens are very influential as a reference toward modern Unix and Linux and have dictated the implentation of APIs and TCP/IP stacks in both.
Copyright WHAT Copyright
From Groklaw [weblogs.com].
Re:Has anybody considered (Score:5, Insightful)
> including comments
No. We have somebody who _says_ that 80 lines of code including comments are identical but who has entered into a secret agreement with SCO that lets SCO control what they say.
If you read the article carefully... (Score:3, Insightful)
This brings us back to a common coding practice: dumping the code and rewriting your own code underneath the comments. Still no data.
IMESHO the NDA is safe to sign because The SCO Group are about to become a memory, a bad dream.
Re: Has anybody considered (Score:3, Insightful)
> the way that SCO has acted at every stage simply doesn't add up to a company that's playing this thing straight.
If they were in fact trying to protect their IP then the first thing that would have happened is that kernel.org would have been hit with a cease-n-desist.
This is another kind of game altogether.
An Entire Unix Kernel... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: An Entire Unix Kernel... (Score:5, Funny)
>
It's written in perl.
Re: An Entire Unix Kernel... (Score:5, Funny)
Then Linux is really scewed. No two perl programmers would write the same code to solve the same problem.
Re:An Entire Unix Kernel... (Score:3, Funny)
#include
main(int argc, char** argv) {
run();
}
FUD! (Score:5, Insightful)
Not only have they NOT proved to the Linux community that the egg came before the chicken, but they have not even proved what "egg" this is. Is it IBM specific code? Is it the actual kernel??
FUD FUD FUD
Re:FUD! (Score:5, Insightful)
"One could argue that developers could write exact or very similar code, but the developers' comments in the code are basically your DNA, or fingerprints, for a particular piece of source code"
Find out who wrote it, ask who it was written for, and that should be the end of any doubt. But these are things that will happen in an eventual court case. SCO has definitely strengthened it's standing in the public eye. If their claims are any more valid, or actually simple deception remains to be seen.
Re:FUD! (Score:5, Insightful)
Now there's a good point - maybe those blocks were written by the same people...
If one (or more) of the early Unix developers later went on to contribute to the Linux kernel, any code they wrote may well have similar comments, due to being for similar functions.
There's one hell of a lot of stuff in the kernel, developed by numerous people - is it beyond the bounds of possibility that some early Unix developer took an interest in Linux and maybe contributed code within his special area of interest?
Re:FUD! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:FUD! (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, all this requires an unbiased court with no FUD pushing from M$^H^H outside parties.
I'm still of the opinion that the most likely breach for this code to have come from would be SCO's own Linux/UNIX integration projects from a few years back.
Re:FUD! (Score:3, Interesting)
SCO might have a case against Sven, but why would they win against IBM?
I agree with an earlier poster, though. By claiming only 80 lines, it kind of shoots their "Bicycle/Sports Car" analogy in the foot, doesn't it?
Re:FUD! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:FUD! (Score:3, Interesting)
The first independent analyst we heard from was not even a programmer, and she specialized in Microsoft products. I wouldn't expect her to have ever used Linux before, let alone be able to detect the lineage of the code. So far, there's no indication that these people are remotely qualified to determine who, if anyone, is ripping off whom. I'm willing to take their word for it that the code is substantially the same, but given that
Sarcasm mode on (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously, if it's 80 lines out of many thousands that they're worried about, they must be either crazy, or have a major inferiority complex...
Oh wait! They're BOTH!
Why should I be worried? (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously though, I doubt I'm even using their stupid code, plus my distro of choice isn't commercial.
Mac OSX based on Linux? (Score:5, Insightful)
Get your facts straight first, Mac OSX is based on BSD - not Linux!
Re:Mac OSX based on Linux? (Score:3, Informative)
That quote is from the "Linux more insecure than Windows, Aberdeen claims" article (second link in the main post) and has nothing to do with the SCO-IBM lawsuit as such.
80 contiguous lines? (Score:4, Insightful)
How do you put the worms back in the can? (Score:3, Interesting)
How in the world do you get us,
What a name (Score:3, Funny)
Quick show him the facts before he starts chasing parked cars
David Boises loosing streak (Score:3, Funny)
He also represented Napster. So far that's 0-3 loses (well, I guess he won the court battle with MS, but that didn't amount to a hill of beans).
If David Boies takes the case, it means you'll probably lose.
Lawyer (Score:5, Interesting)
Wait a minute. Didn't the Microsoft case collapse? And didn't Al Gore loose his case? So why is SCO's case being "bolstered" by using David Boies. Isn't Mr. Boies just a loser?
(Nothing personal against David, just looking at the quoted record.)
Re:Lawyer (Score:5, Interesting)
If you look at the part of the Microsoft case that Boies was involved in, Boies clearly won. Microsoft was found to be a monopoly, and have acted illegally. The judge in the case went so far as to recommend that Microsoft be broken up. Even more telling he clearly embarrassed Microsoft's attorneys a number of times during the trial. Of course, the settlement turned out to be far less than a breakup, but that was more due to the DofJ caving during negotiations with MS than anything Boies did. And that finding of MS being a monopoly is going to affect MS for a long time in a variety of ways in other litigation.
In the case of Al Gore's electiion challenge, Boies did lose. While I am not at all a fan of Dubya I think that in retrospect it was a reasonable outcome to a very difficult situation. Certainly post-mortem investigations showed that Bush probably did actually win the plurality of votes in Florida. Of course the fact that justice seems to have been served is purely accidental, and should be a warning that election processes are not robust enough in these close races.
To me the disappointing result was the Napster result. I would have thought that things like the Betamax case would have provided a good base to win this one. I do not at all agree with the idea that a particular technology should be blamed for the way it is used.
The other area of criticism of Boies that bears some scrutiny is that he was unethical during the Gore matter. This to me is the most severe issue of all. Of ourse I am sure SCO doesn't care about this.
The choice of lawyer for SCO may well have come down to the fact that they need someone to handle a very high profile technology/IP case on a contingency basis. It may have boiled down to Boies being the best available.
Re:Lawyer (Score:3, Informative)
80 Lines of code = less revenue? (Score:4, Insightful)
Gimme a break, no one is going to believe that. As soon as they know what code is "dirty", if it even is, it is going to be removed.
That's exactly why SCO won't talk. (Score:4, Interesting)
Thereby depriving SCO of their revenue stream. They are trying to cast a cloud of FUD over the entire Linux and GNU codebase, to establish de facto ownership of the whole enchilada.
Yes, it's like slapping a lien on your house over a couple of stolen teacups. What remains to be seen is whether the court will allow it. Can any lawyers comment? (Lawyers, please, not the zillions of IANALs that inhabit these parts.)
Re:That's exactly why SCO won't talk. (Score:3, Insightful)
The instant they try it, they'll get shotgun blasted by the copyright holders of the portions of Linux they don't "own". They distributed Linux kernels for years under the GPL. Furthermore, they don't own what they didn't develop. Many of those owners will want legal relief for what SCO would steal from them. SCO is trying
How can 80 lines be worth 1 billion ? (Score:3, Informative)
#!/usr/bin/perl
use File::Find;
find(\&wanted, ".");
sub wanted {
next unless
open C, $_;
while () {$c++; }
}
print "$c\n";
There are about 3 million lines of code in the linux source. 80 lines are 0,003%. For SCO's sake i hope they have more evidence than these 80 lines - and that they can prove that the didn't rip them off them selves - either from linux or BSD.
Are the 80 lines contiguous ... ? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Are the 80 lines contiguous ... ? (Score:5, Funny)
At last, the copied code is revealed. Here it is!:
like music sampling? (Score:3, Interesting)
on a more serious note, could some lawyer answer the question of what pre-trial obligations SCO has to give the LINUX community a chance to rectify the errors. I've read that no actually dmamages can be claimed until the copyright infringement is made known to the offending party. As it is SCO
Where's the truth? (Score:3, Insightful)
80 lines Come on (Score:5, Informative)
Wow (Score:5, Funny)
Just think, if you write just one such line per day, you could start competing with Bill Gates' annual income.
New defense tactic needed (Score:5, Funny)
Does Linus et al keep track of code submitters (Score:5, Interesting)
Is it possible to submit a patch to some backwater part of the kernel that improves upon something rather mundane, the kind of thing that doesn't get your picture on the "Top 10 Kernel Gurus" list and then have the identity of the submitter slowly slip away into the ether?
Or are the kernel submitters kept in some kind of list someplace along with the stuff they submitted?
Re:Does Linus et al keep track of code submitters (Score:5, Informative)
Second, Linus most of the time ignores code which does not come from his trusted lieutnants. They, too, do proper attribution.
Third, most code isn't accepted unless it's obviously correct (like small fixes) or has had some testing on the list first. Which means that the patch can probably be found in LKML.
Re:Does Linus et al keep track of code submitters (Score:5, Insightful)
If what you say is true, then there is imperfect record keeping and its certainly is possible to substitute "Alan Cox" in the above paragraph for "IBM" or some other entity liable to submit a largish patch or patches where the submitter isn't necessarily the atomic entity that wrote the code.
It would also stand to reason that some plebian coder with access to the SCO source could use it as a basis for 'fixes' to the kernel and submit them through some 2nd or 3rd tier person who might submit a patch rollup to Linus who just merges it in under their name.
It would also stand to reason that the above plebian coder, anonymously submitting code, could actually be acting on a malicious basis, trying to poison the code by submitting non-original work.
What I don't get is what could have SCO have coded that Linux either did poorly or not at all, and was drop-in compatible with Linux? I would have presumed that the SCO code was architected entirely different and that perhaps there were some *algorithms* superior that those in Linux, actual code that could be copied line-by-line would have been next to impossible.
Plebian? (Score:4, Insightful)
They'd have to be an absolute bloody genius to find code that was portable UnixWare-to-Linux and pleased Linus and all of the lieutenants standing before him.
Re: More like does IBM keep track of submitters... (Score:4, Insightful)
> SCO seems to think they'll either be able to make Linux go away or force everyone using Linux to buy an SCO license.
Or the third option - the most probable one IMO - they think they can arrange a buyout or make their stock bolt, providing the funds for a nice set of golden parachutes.
There is absolutely no way they can take IBM to court without revealing the relevant lines of code to IBM's lawyers, and at that point all the secrecy will become moot. Ergo, they are up to something that they expect to pay off before the case gets to court. Ergo, it's a golden parachute acquisition plan.
I suspect the SEC will need to look into this before its over with.
And now.. read again SCO claims (Score:5, Interesting)
80 LINES of code !
âoeOver time, IBM made a very substantial financing commitment to improperly put SCO's confidential and proprietary information into Linux, the free operating system.â (Paragraph 94)
80 LINES of code !
âoeThe only way that the pathway is an âeight-lane highwayâ(TM) for Linux to achieve the scalability, SMP support, fail-over capabilities and reliability of UNIX is by the improper extraction, use, and dissemination of the proprietary and confidential UNIX Software Code and libraries. Indeed, UNIX was able to achieve its status as the premiere operating system only after decades of hard work, beginning with the finest computer scientists at AT&T Bell Laboratories, plaintiff's predecessor in interest. â (Paragraph 99)
80 LINES of code !
There is an audit trail, you know (Score:5, Informative)
This isn't like the Cisco/Huawei case, where IOS has been proprietary for years, without an open source equivalent forked out of it in the distant past, and without various companies working with both codebases. In that case, there's nothing to cross-pollinate with, and copied code could clearly go in only one direction.
And if it's not in the kernel, then it's not in Linux, is it? Linux is the kernel and the kernel alone. Everything else is GNU and other third-party utilities, and distro-specific stuff.
Of course SCO wants to make it difficult because what they really want is to muscle someone (primarily IBM) into buying them out. If they made it easy for people to investigate, the truth would be found in a week, and their case would vanish. And people would also be working to replace the code in question, just as they did in the days of the BSD/AT&T debacle. I'm surprised they've let anybody see it yet.
Wasn't a good test (Score:5, Insightful)
Where's the analysis in this? 80 lines of code isn't damning. Where did it come from? Did she go back into the distro archives and find where and when it was put into the code? No. Did she check against the BSD codebase? NO. Did she even know what she was looking at? Probably not.
NDA & Comment Question (Score:5, Interesting)
Mike
It's The Canopy Group (Score:3, Informative)
eg:
Also from the same page the chairman of the Canopy Group Investment Company, Ray Noorda is a former Novell CEO.
What do you think the chances are that Novell knew of the code copying (if it occured that is) but chose to not pursue it, and this Ray Noorda tipped The Canopy Group off as to the potential litigation value in it, so they bought it up, and drummed up a bit of support for it so they could turn around later and hit all the 'skyrocketing' growth potential Ralph Yarro was talking about?
Eureka! (Score:3, Funny)
Maybe someone at SCO ran The Bible Code [nmsr.org] on the Linux source and found the words "Linux, SCO, rip-off".
Two previous post provide sufficient defense... (Score:5, Insightful)
The first post [slashdot.org], taken from a June 3rd story [slashdot.org], points out the relative significance of a situation in which everything that SCO has said is true, and it even is a bit optimistic in favor of SCO's claims (but it still puts things in perspective):
Ok so we have this quote:
"The month of June is show-and-tell time," McBride said. "Everybody's been clamoring for the code...and we're going to show hundreds of lines of code."
So lets assume "hundreds of lines of code" is our N value. Now let N equal... oh... we'll be lenient on our definition of "hundreds" and make N = 5000.
Ok so we've got our hypothetical 5000 lines of offending code. Now lets count the number of lines in every
TMPFILE=`mktemp
Which gives us 3332935 (including comments but hey we're lazy).
And this seems reasonable give that according to this link [geocrawler.com] which shows ~1.8 million for a 2.2 kernel so yeah hey what's another 1.5 million between friends? (think of all the new hardware support)
Ok so we've got our probably bogus number of ~3.3 million lines of code. Remember N? Come on you can do the next step its fun!
5000 / 3332935 == 0.0015% and lets be super generous and assume comments make up 40% of our line count...
5000 / 1999761 == 0.0025%
I wonder what the statistical liklihood of having similiar blocks of code of some signifigant size that happen to be the same (excluding format and variable differences). I mean there's only so many ways one can _intelligently_ code a given function
Given those kind of percentages I doubt a judge or jury could be convinced of any copyright infringement of any signifigance. It'd be kind like trying to sue a competing encyclopedia company for swiping that one entry in the "P" volume on "Petards" ("hoisting", "petard", look it up) from you and demanding millions of dollars in compensation for this plagerism (ok so this analogy sucks but I had petards on my mind so...)
The second post [slashdot.org], taken from a June 6th story [slashdot.org], highlights the fact that something fishy would have had to have been going on within SCO's ranks for a block of code with full comments to be submitted for inclusion into the Linux kernel:
Not having the benefit of seeing the code I'll have to assumme these comments are fairly overwhelming evidence wise.
If you knowingly copy code, into a product that can be viewed by potentially millions, wouldn't you at least try to make it not resemble the original work.
Yes, it is easy to catch the lazy cheaters, but if put some effort in it then it should be a little more difficult then running grep.
I'm sure there are bound to be similarities here and there, coders no doubt ran into the same problems working on the same platform, but apparently these grievances were enough to goto court over.
Obviously, we can surmise they understand their work enough to copy kernel code, so we know the individuals were at least someone intelligent.
So, having in mind how code theft works, it doesn't make sense for something as obvious
Things are getting worse for Linux. (Score:5, Insightful)
You know and I know that SCO's case is meaningless and that even if some hapless SCO, Caldera or IBM idiot inserted code into Linux, that code can be quickly removed and replaced and a new kernel distributed to people using Linux.
You and I also know that it is much more likely that code made its way from Linux into SCO, or from BSD into both, and that SCO's "side-by-side code" demonstration technique doesn't hold up to solid reasoning.
However, very few people in business are going to understand this. Management are scared idiots, American management doubly so. They're going to stay away from Linux in droves and are already feeling personally betrayed by the people who make Linux, just on the strength of the FUD and accusations. They're already at home telling the wife how big a mistake Linux was and how they should have listened to the doubters.
It's natural for them to take this view so easily because they've been conditioned all their lives to believe that "there's no such thing as a free lunch" and "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" and after years of business training they're suspect of anything (even family matters) that don't emphasize the "bottom line" above all else. They were very reluctant to consider Linux in the first instance for these reasons and it took years of badgering on technical grounds and tempting on cost grounds from technical underlings to stop them from seeing Linux as some kind of a scam in the first place.
The courts in the US, unfortunately, have the same view. If it's corporation versus non-corporation, the corporation will always get the benefit of the doubt. The burden of proof will always be on the non-corporation, regardless of what the "law" may say, and in many cases, it's impossible for the non-coproration to win a case; the court will simply rule for the corporation even if it's patently obvious that the law doesn't support such a ruling. They'll do it with a backhanded wink and a nod and the belief that to hurt business and "the economy" is far worse that to hurt any non-business entity or group of individuals.
For these reasons, Linux in the US will likely suffer horribly over the next few months or perhaps even several years. In fact, it's doubtful that Linux will ever recover the "inevitable force" swagger that it has had over the last few months in that country. Instead, Linux will continue to grow across the rest of the world and the US will lose yet another technical and cultural advantage in the interests of supporting business above all else.
Hmm, maybe it's not so much a prediction as a fear. But I can't help but think that SCO has turned a corner on this one, not in terms of their case from an honest perspective, but in terms of the effect they're having.
Re:Things are getting worse for Linux. (Score:5, Insightful)
You seem to have duped into a stereotypical line of thinking. Most people in business are very intelligent, yet your opinion is based on the anecdotes of a select few. Likewise for lawyers. Your opinion is based on anecdotes of a few. Most managers listen to their IT people and their lawyers do research when they dont understand something. This includes finding out things like the significance of 80 lines of code in relation to the rest of the product as a whole.
Additionally, any lawyer for a company receiving one of SCO's letters saying that through their use of [some-non-SCO] Linux distro, they're violating some law and should cease usage. Any lawyer will interpret that as the equivalent of Ford telling GM car owners their cars are illegal, and they should buy Ford cars. (If you wanna know how hard it is to be a lawyer, try some sample LSAT questions.)
If it's corporation versus non-corporation, the corporation will always get the benefit of the doubt.
Not so. I dont where you got this opinion from. US Courts require evidence from the plaintiffs of a case, just as the defense has oppurtunity to refute and present counter evidence. I think you're basing your opinion on cases that get settled outside the courtroom, where the definition of the "law" can be easily ignored.
Recall the case of Victorias Secret vs. the mom-and-pop Victors Little Secret. The case was trademark related, Victorias Secret claimed VLS was hurting their profits and sales by having a similar name. I dont know what the intermediate rulings in the case were, but each hearing VLS asked evidence be presented of actual harm. The case eventually got before the Supreme Court, who ruled that in trademark cases, the victim (ie, plaintiff) must show evidence of actual harm being done.
Re:Things are getting worse for Linux. (Score:3, Informative)
Nothing like a good bit of karma-martyring, eh?
However, very few people in business are going to understand this. Management are scared idiots, American management doubly so. They're going to stay away from Linux in droves and are already feeling personally betrayed by the people who make Linux, just on the strength of the FUD and accusations. They're already at home telling the wife how big a mistake Linux was and how they should h
What did you say they wanted? (Score:5, Interesting)
We don't want to destroy fair use; we just want to make sure the artists get paid for their work.
We don't want to destroy free software; we just want to be paid every time someone uses it.
<sarcasm>Yeah, right.</sarcasm>
I've seen this kind of thing before... (Score:3, Interesting)
It wasnâ(TM)t until they put them in two different rooms and asked them to write the same thing that they found that these two had virtually identical ways of coding, not just the code itâ(TM)s self, but the variables uses, the code formatting and even the comments. Everyone was surprised, and eventually the accusation of cheating was dropped.
The moral of this story is that two blocks of code can be identical, itâ(TM)s very rare, just remember the infinite monkey principal.
Theft is fheft.. but.. (Score:3, Interesting)
80 lines will be easy to 'fix' for the future, they cant be magic code..
But that wont stop them from asking for damages due to previous versions of violating software.
I've always believed SCO had a case, or wouldn't claim it.. BUT it was totally irresponsible to act on the infraction in this manner. A polite letter of 'you have violated, here is what you need to fix' would have been proper. Its not like they have lost a dime over this.. really.
Heritage of that code? (Score:5, Interesting)
Personally, I place the first option as the least possible for two reasons: first, that I doubt any decently-skilled programmer would believe that (improperly donated) proprientary code would remain undetected in a open source program. (The "many eyes" principle doesn't make just bugs shallow!) Secondly, SCO "damning evidence" chart of UNIX history [sco.com] shows two arrows going FROM Linux to UnixWare around August 2000 (on either side of UnixWare 7.1.1+LKP), one coming from the Linux 2.2 branch and the other from the Linux 2.4 branch. This chart also shows one (and only one) arrow leading into Linux ... from BSD 4.4 around the end of 1994 (Linux 1.1.52).
I'm laughing my head of at this whole brouhaha. SCO can't keep their story straight (one day it's trade secrets, then copyright, then patents, then ...) nor can they even lie convincingly on their webpage. Somebody please start a class action lawsuit positing fraud against these folks.
[1: Even without seeing an exact statement from SCO about what part of their proprietary code is in question, I know it must be in UnixWare and not OpenServer because they complain IBM violated their IP with MonterreyAre things really that bad? (Score:4, Interesting)
1) Did the code indeed come from UNIX to Linux and not from some other common source such as BSD - or from Linux to UNIX. Given the lack of version control in early versions of UNIX, it's going to be hard to show *where* it came from.
2) Where is this code? If it's in the heart of the kernel then that's one thing - but if it's in some obscure utility or in a device driver, then it's quite possible that hardly anyone is using this code anyway.
3) You can bet that within an hour of SCO revealing the location of this code, there will be a replacement for it out there. So they'd only be able to claim royalties for past use...not off into the future.
4) Novell claim to own the copyrights and patents to UNIX. If that's true - then who cares about SCO's claims? Now, if Novell were to sue - that would be a completely different matter.
5) It's hard to see how SCO could claim to have been materially damaged by this. It's pretty darned obvious that if the Linux community had not had access to those 80 lines, we'd have written them ourselves...it's not like "Oh no, we don't know how to write that function - so we'll have to steal it from UNIX."
Linux's and SCO's sales would not have been different in the slightest whether that code was copied or written from scratch.
We *NEED* more facts. What file and what range of line numbers are we talking about here? Why are SCO keeping that so secret?
Damages vs. Claims (Score:5, Insightful)
So far they are claiming that Linux sales are hurting SCO sales. That is where the inflated 1 Billion dollar suite originates from. Loss of sales, not just royalties.
It would seem to me, they would have to demonstrate A LOT of code was stolen in critical areas to show the Linux kernel really couldn't do well without their code.
Of course, that is of course determining this is their code to begin with. Then determining where the actual code came from.
It isn't just about proving code was indeed stolen, its about proving enough code was stolen to really shake up SCO sales. Then how much sales is really attributed to performance. Microsoft has proven that making the sale isn't just about code worthiness. (Probably a bad example using a monopoly, but other companies make the sale without perfect software)
80 lines lets see? (Score:3, Interesting)
sounds more liek SCO GFroup during the partnering with IBM on a project accidently copied their own code to Linux..:)
What ever happen to McBride's claim of thousands of lines of code?
The issue here is contractual - not ethical (Score:4, Insightful)
As I point out in my Linuxworld.com article (the one the editors here have not slashdotted - I wonder if they don't like pro sco opinions?) the issue is whether or not IBM breached the terms of the contract under which they had access to the AT&T code. I believe they did and that SCO will have an easy time proving it - and in that context lets remember that 80 lines will more than suffice for this if, in fact, their provenance can be proven in court.
On the other hand my belief is that this issue has little or nothing to do with Linux on any platform other than the IBM P, I, and Z series machines using the PowerPC architecture and thus the SMP and memory management code constributed to the AT&T code base by engineers from companies like Sun, NCR, and Motorola. Today's SuSe or Red Hat CVS may include these materials, but since they're only called with respect to compilation for IBM's non intel hardware, I predict a zero real impact on Linux.
FUD, of course, is another matter and the more people focus on the negative consequences for Linux which would arise if a fundamentally mistaken interpretation of the whole mess were correct, the worse things will get for the Linux community. So lets not help that along by spreading mis-information and conjecture. The facts will sort themselves out reasonably soon - and if I'm right Linux will come out unscathed while, if I'm wrong, delaying the rush to judgement may still help clarify the real issues.
Found it! (Score:5, Funny)
81
I got the 80-lines (Score:5, Funny)
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
...etc...
How SCO could resolve this, once and for all (Score:5, Insightful)
Dear SCO,
The current debacle over who owns what in the SCO and Linux kernels is unacceptable to the Information Technology industry as a whole. The industry fares badly in times of uncertainty, and at present, the economy is offering more uncertainty than the industry can healthily support.
I understand fully the rationale of not openly publishing the lines of code that are in question. However, given the claim that they are identical, the following method will allow SCO to demonstrate the legitamacy of its claims, without compromising on the security and integrity of its code base and Intellectual Property rights.
I urge SCO to adopt either the four steps below, OR something that is similar, so that we can move beyond the fear, uncertainty and doubt, and into the realms of peacably resolving these issues in a way that benefits all parties concerned.
As Professor Nash pointed out in his Nobel-prize winning paper on economics, competition functions best with cooperation. SCO and Linux are very different OS', with very different "ideal" markets. The overlap is small. Compete over the overlap, by all means. That is the idea of a free market. However, where no overlap exists, you risk expending resources on a sector you cannot gain.
I therefore urge you to fight as hard as you can, where such a fight means something, but you know computer history well enough to know the fate of many companies who steered the course of pyrric victories. IBM and Apple both got burned badly from such policies, to the point where nobody could be sure of the future of either. Understand the economic and political implications of Professor Nash's work, before pursuing a policy that, historically, has proved treacherous to all sides concerned.
As mentioned earlier, there are four simple steps SCO can do, which protect its Intellectual Property, yet prove its case beyond any reasonable doubt. These steps are as follows:
The point of the above "proof" is that SCO -could- win in the public opinion arena, by using a method of this kind, IF it has a case.
If there are lots of (N, P) clusters, close together (ie: evidence of a similar function, using identical operations in an identical way, with identical symbol names, etc), then the Linux and IBM crowds would probably respect that and work to resolve this issue peacably, recognising that code from SCO does indeed appear to be in there.
If, however, you have very scattered (N, P) blocks, with a very random distribution, you're much more likely to be looking at simple reuse of a common ADT, or the solving of specific problems with a unique implementable solution. When something is absolutely unique - there is only one algorithm, or block of code which can perform the task - then it is restraint of trade to attempt to own that unique method. Patents, etc, rely on the premise that alternatives, and thus competition, exist, and that you are merely protecting YOUR alternative, not denying others the right to compete.
(This is one reason I think the patent system is seriously messed up. The case for a patent should be proven prior to patenting, as not all competitors are in a position to launch a serious challange to the lawfulness - either in letter or in spirit - of the patent.)
I'm confused. What's RedHat doing (Score:4, Interesting)
GNU, and FSF, should care what is going on with this case.
OSI has something to say too.
In reaction to posts like this one [slashdot.org] linux distributors should sue SCO, asking for the following:
A. Injunction against scaring potential and existing customers away from linux, using threatening letters.
B. Disclosure of offending lines of code.
C. Bar SCO from legally threatening ANY Linux user under the grounds of copyright infringment, since SCO has already released all the code under the GPL (and continues to do so, by disseminating linux-kernel-source from their website).
It seems to me that this should be a simple process. Indeed, if I wasn't dead broke, I might decide to file a case like this myself.
In addition, why not fork SCO's Caldera kernel-> Isn't their custom kernel usuable as 'linux'? Just take their kernel, strip out the SCO bits, add our own, and call in the SCO-lawsuit-protected kernel--after all, you got it from SCO, and they have agreed not to prosecute people using their code.
Infact, this last option seems to be an ace in the hole for us. Unless I'm wrong, in which case someone should explain why to me.
The Final Straw to me (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:80 lines... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: 80 lines... (Score:5, Funny)
> They prefer to call it an easter egg.
No, they prefer to think of it as a lottery ticket.
Re:Use SCO's Bandwidth (Score:5, Funny)
Save as fsco.sh (or whatever...), and run .
Kick back, and enjoy
Re:But where is the code? (Score:3, Interesting)
I would assume, then, that this 80 lines of code is not required for a system boot (unless it pertains to some bizarre IBM setup, in which case the code would have no doubt originated from IBM, and possibly submitted to both the Linux kernel and the SCO Unix kernel independently).
Re:This is rediculous (Score:4, Insightful)
To quote...
If those 80 lines of code allow you to sort information faster then your competetors, immediately.