XPde Makes X11 Resemble Windows 527
Gentu writes "Here is another way of penetrating the Windows market, which might even prove more successful than the current efforts: XPde is a desktop environment that mimics the Windows 2000 look and feel and behavior. Currently on version 0.3, the team has re-created a number of applications from its Windows equivalents, including Explorer." T. cuts in: It looks like they've made a lot of progress since this project was last mentioned.
xeyes (Score:5, Funny)
Re:xeyes (Score:3, Informative)
You've been able to do that for ages. The later versions of XFree86 build on Win2K / cygwin with no modification, and include xeyes. Anyone planning on using using XF86 on Win2K would be advised to compile gcc3.2 and then compile XF86 4.3.0 with this. It is noticable faster than the version shipped with cygwin, which is built using gcc2.95.
Re:xeyes (Score:2)
Re:xeyes (Score:3, Interesting)
uhh, fvwm-95 anyone? (Score:2)
why not make it like WinXP? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:why not make it like WinXP? (Score:3, Informative)
We have made better GUIs but people still aren't moving. People are comfortable w/Windows and that's what they want Linux to be like.
Re:why not make it like WinXP? (Score:3, Insightful)
This isn't for the hardcore or even for the softcore peeps. This is the bait. You may not welcome it, but don't lambast it because it isn't geared toward the veterans. It isn
Re:why not make it like WinXP? (Score:5, Insightful)
IMHO this is a nearly unachievable task (the 10x improvement), given today's hardware. Therefore, the better path is to give people what they already have (which to them will seem like a "free" upgrade to Win2003).
Once people start switching over (a sizeable percentage, not 2%), then the GUI improvements can start taking place.
Look at it this way; if we came up with a car that could be driven will much less effort and with a reduced chance of "crashing", BUT it had no steering wheel or pedals, it would be VERY difficult to get people to switch, even though the design might be obviously superior.
GRH
This is Linux-ONLY (Score:5, Informative)
Re:This is Linux-ONLY (Score:4, Insightful)
b) The Lazarus project is cloning the VCL, and the FreePascal project provide a Delphi compatible compiler, so there is a way to build it without kylix if you so wish.
Re:This is Linux-ONLY (Score:5, Interesting)
- A couple of old dinosaurs
- About 30 Windows machines using various versions of Windows.
- 3 Macs with Mac OS X
- Over 100 workstations running FreeBSD on the desktop.
- About the same number running every distribution of Linux imaginable
- A Slowaris box.
- Six IRIX boxes, which are my favorite.
- 14 "servers" running on OpenBSD.
The point is that we do use desktop applications (some developed inhouse) on these weird operating systems. Not that we care if they look like Windows... as a matter of fact, just about every machine looks completely different, as this company has never put a computer out of commission. We even have Windows 3.0, 3.1 and 3.11 on about five computers. Now that's OLD. My office simply has a pile that perpetually consists of four or five "broken" computers, and I keep fixing them all the time. The result is that every employee has become quite computer literate and open minded about how a computer should look and act, and as a result, we don't care if UIs are consistent or if there are weird keys to push or whatever... All we care about is that the job gets done, and that's what computers are actually useful for.Besides, who said you can't run this XPde on a Linux box but view it on a FreeBSD box across the company? You'd be surprised at how much we do this type of thing, and it works really well thanks to X11.
It looks amazing! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:It looks amazing! (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm getting to like it. Big change from running Enlightenment
Re:It looks amazing! (Score:2)
Guess I should have read the manual...
Darn it, Taco! (Score:5, Funny)
CD-ROMs *DO* explode! (Score:2, Funny)
If you try this, DO IT OUTSIDE AND AWAY FROM ANY OTHER HUMAN, ANIMAL, OR DAMAGABLE OBJECT.
Just stick a ROM you don't like on the end of a dremel (the knurled chuck is the one that fits perfectly) and kick it on it's highest setting ABOVE YOUR HEAD WITH A VERTICAL AXIS.
Trust me, when they blow, it's dramatic. You should also wear safety goggles.
I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INJURY DUE TO ANYONE TRYING THIS - TRY IT AT YOUR OWN RISK! The impact was enough fro
converters (Score:4, Insightful)
Soon they will notice how stable and fast it is, and then they'll hopefully realize that evilwm rules them all
Re:converters (Score:2, Insightful)
Wait 'till the converters start asking why Word and Excel aren't there, or why their cd's with software or games won't work (properly). I think it will confuse possible new users: their computers's interface looks the same, but it works completely different. No InstallShield, but RPMS/debs et
Re:converters (Score:5, Funny)
"But Son, it doesn't work like my BMW. Its slower, and the gas and brake pedals are reversed. Also, the characters on the display are hard to read. Oh, and it won't open my garage door anymore!"
"Don't be a newbie lamer Dad! The design is free and open. In fact, Dimitri down the street is working on fixing some of the problems you just mentioned!"
"But my BMW worked just fine..."
"Quiet you ignorant slut!! Here are the complete specifications for the car. Whatever you need to fix you can do yourself. You can even add new features!! Here, I bought you some tools, so enjoy!"
"But I have other work to do tonight..."
"Silence!! Don't be a slave to big business!! Support freedom!! Support choice!!!"
Re:converters (Score:2)
A brave effort... (Score:4, Insightful)
BUT I fear a giant lawsuit from the monster in Redmond. I hope that this project will be hosted from some fair haven, like Sealand or whatever. I hope that some excellent lawyers will come forth, pro bono. Mmmm, maybe this could be the first open source project managed and distributed by a peer to peer network?
Re:A brave effort... (Score:3, Informative)
To be clear, I hate the tranny of these restrictive IP laws with all of the cells of my being. I know creators want and need to be rewarded but the
Lindows buyout? (Score:3, Interesting)
Not only would it further Lindows' pursuit of capturing the Linux end-user desktop market, it would also be yet another opportunity for him to get Lindows in the news. MS is already suing the company over their us
This helps a lot of scared older folks (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:This helps a lot of scared older folks (Score:5, Insightful)
People want their brand new POS Lexmark to work by plugging it in and dropping the CD in. These are the same people that like the fact that their printer blurts "Printing Started" whenever they print something. The fact that Linux software installs usually only involve double clicking a file and entering a password will be a disadvantage, people want to click on a wizard over and overr again. The fact that most driver installs in Linux involve compiling a kernel module will be even worse. The fact that most inexpensive hardware is unsupported at all on Linux (by the manufaturer) is the serious problem though. Nobody wants to search forums for their NIC driver, and nobady wants to pick which printing system to use for their brand new $49 printer. Look and feel aside the personal desktop market for Linux is a long way off. This Win2k look alike has huge potential in the business office though. Where you don't want people to install their random crap hard/software. But you also don't want people to call for support because they can't change the resolution of their monitor to 800x600 (because they cannot see the fonts).
Re:This helps a lot of scared older folks (Score:2)
We old farts are NOT scared! We just don't want to waste what little time we have left in this mortal plane re-learned our riffs on a new interface. Not, when there is so much anime we haven't seen yet!
Re:This helps a lot of scared older folks (Score:2)
And I also must admit, that I can improve my proofreading skills - especially when I am upset over a young'n dis'in' the old.
Sorry.
Stunning resemblance (Score:3, Funny)
Wow, it bears a stunning resemblance.
Re:Stunning resemblance (Score:3, Informative)
Get a
Re:Stunning resemblance (Score:4, Funny)
The task manager is all wrong (Score:5, Funny)
If you want 2000/XP users to feel comfortable, you Linux guys are going to have to make your system far less memory efficient. Or perhaps you could just divide the displayed available amount in half.
Mirrors (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Mirrors (Score:5, Informative)
Screen Shot Mirror [getfreereports.com]
cool (Score:3, Funny)
Re:cool (Score:3, Informative)
Not to say they are as prevalent as the 95/98 days, but anyone that truly believes they are gone is fooling themselves.
Clearly illegal (Score:2)
This must clearly be illegal since Microsft has patented the Start button. (their screenshots do have a start button though the Windows flag logo has been replaced.)
I bet if it gets pulled to court, even linking to XPDe site will be banned. CmdrTaco can go to jail
How is this different? (Score:2)
screenshot mirror (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:screenshot mirror (Score:2)
MS GUI peaked and passed... (Score:2, Insightful)
MadCow.
Re:MS GUI peaked and passed... (Score:5, Insightful)
And that is your opinion. When I say the "Blue Gree Red" candy crap I said the same thing. Just last week I bought a Sony laptop which had WinXP and it was my first time really using the OS. Thankfully this OS is skinned, so dealing with that color combo is trivial. After giving the OS AND the new UI a fair shot (I did NOT revert to "classic mode"), I actually like it a lot better than my Win2K box. The grouped task bar is really nice (now I see why IE doesn't have tabbed browsing), the new start menu drove me nuts so I switched it to "classic" for a while, then switched back. Now it's growing on me. The larger window control icons (Close, Maximize, Minimize) are very welcome when using a laptop's less-than-precise pointing device.
Sure, I get pissed off when I can't figure out how to get to something because I'm so used to where it was in Win2K, but that doesn't make XP worse, that makes me used to 2K. If after using XP for a month I still can't figure it out, well then it's unintuitive. However, different does not equal unintuitive. The XP GUI is by all means not perfect, and XP as a whole seems like a "point" release from Win2K - in many cases it's not worth the money to upgrade from a Win2K box. However, I'm happy with it on my laptop.
YMMV.
Re:MS GUI peaked and passed... (Score:2)
Great argumentative skills... hurray for you. Get beat up much as a kid?
q:]
Copyright? (Score:2)
Man, that looks like like Windows. But isn't the Windows "look and feel" copyrighted somehow?
I don't think there's anything wrong with the Win2k interface, WinXP maybe...
Re:Copyright? (Score:5, Insightful)
I thought that when Microsoft won the Apple v. Microsoft case it set the precedent that you can't copyright "look and feel"? It will be interesting to see what Microsoft does now that the shoe is on the other foot...
Re:Copyright? (Score:5, Insightful)
YAWN, or is that YAWM (yet another window manager) (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't believe that anyone will hold up these window managers up as the point of comparison between Linux and Windows which makes Linux the patform of choice. In particular these immitative ones. I just can't see "Use Linux - it's just like Windows" as being a particularly convincing argument.
What does this WM do that I couldn't do in the past?
or even:
What is the problem to which this is the solution?
Sure, it's a choice, and c
Re:YAWN, or is that YAWM (yet another window manag (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't be so elitest (Score:4, Insightful)
Why does Microsoft have it's death grip on the OS market? Because they average computer user is just too comfortable with Windows since 95, and possibly 3.x. It's not /.'ers that this is really targeted for.
What we should be really happy about is there is a clean XP desktop for X11 we can load on a *nix box to show to our bosses and managers to try to get them to make the *nix switch. Look how easy it is boss!!!My only concern is will the M$ demon come down and smash this for some copyright infringement or something stupid.
Anyone know what IP/copyright/trademark issues are invloved?
File manager (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:File manager (Score:2)
Need to make a new directory in
-open terminal
-$ mkdir newdirectory
-close terminal and download.
Screenshot Mirror ... All of them ... (Score:5, Informative)
Here is a real screenshot mirror with all the screem shots included. Thumbnails and full size:
Screen Shot Mirror [getfreereports.com]
They did better then I thought... (Score:2, Interesting)
Seriously though, Why? If you want Windows, use Windows. Better OS behind the GUI? Hell, 2k/XP aren't *that* horrible, especially just for desktop uses.
Is there a reason so many people are trying to get joe sixpack to use *nix instead of Windows? I'm not an elitest holier than thou 'cause I know a bunch of arcane commands freak, it just seems to me if you want a Windows GUI Windows just makes more sence. Why copy them? Are we going to go as far as to make lo
New Paint Won't Sell X (Score:2)
The world is replete with great free and open software. and it's a good thing that it's free, because it is also essentially unsellable. Take the hint: Consumers expect less when something is free. Stop making pointless cosmetic interface change
This is a good development (Score:5, Insightful)
I love the backend of *nix, but could never stand any of the desktops enough to use it as my primary OS. With this project, I can have an OS with a nice backend AND an aesthetically-pleasing, usable front end.
Sure this isn't innovating, but consider what is required to come up with a good GUI. Microsoft spends a LOT of money doing research to see what people like in a GUI, whereas linux innovation is often the result of one developer deciding, "Hmm, this feature is cool - I'll make a window manager do that". It isn't really reasonable to expect a better (for "normal" computer people) GUI from a group of developers than a company doing actual research.
Unfortunately, the server stopped responding after I got the home page, but the few tiny shots there show things like the Display control panel (an interface I really like and have wanted in linux for a long time), and explorer. If they have a few more control panels (Add/Remove programs, Network connections, and a subset of System), this might really be enough to get me to switch my primary OS.
Who said anything about dupes? (Score:3, Insightful)
Mimic the right things... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why doesn't anybody mimic that?
CUT-AND-PASTE IS NOT ONLY FOR TEXT (Score:5, Insightful)
Try this:
Go to a windows system
Copy some formatted text in an IE window, and paste it into a Word document.
Copy an image from an IE window, and past it into a Word doc.
Now try doing the same thing on a Linux box. Doesn't work, does it? Put *that* in your X11 is superior pipe and smoke it. X11's cut and paste system is *brain* *dead*! It's not about keybindings, it's not about needing three button mice, it's about moving beyond flat effing ASCII text!
Sorry for the rant, but nobody ever seems to understand that to Mac and Windows converts, cut and paste is more than psting the right plain text into the right place most of the time.
Re:CUT-AND-PASTE IS NOT ONLY FOR TEXT (Score:5, Interesting)
In X11 (and presumably Windows) there is a negotiation step during the Paste phase of the Cut/Copy/Paste clipboard system, where the conversation goes like this:
App1: Hi App2, I hear you have the clipboard contents. What's in there?
App2: Hi App1, I have ASCII, UTF8, HTML, SLASHDOT-RANT or INSANE-NONSENSE
App1: Gee, most of that went straight over my head, I'll take some UTF8 please.
App2: Here you go: UTF8 text follows
All you need to do is convince X app authors who might have some use for it to add XPIXMAP or whatever to their send/receive acceptable types list and then write the appropriate encoding and decoding stuff for their app.
Once one or two popular apps do this AT ALL, it would be worth going to FreeDesktop and getting a simple standard written which says e.g. what format the clipboard image should be, and how to encode/decode it.
Slash dotted (Score:2, Informative)
Link [216.239.53.100]
This could be huge. (Score:3, Interesting)
Windows XP GUI quality (Score:2, Interesting)
I read through all the comments about how horrid the Windows XP GUI is... and didn't understand until I remembered that whenever I'm forced to use XP, I set the GUI to 2000/98 mode.
Really, the whole XP GUI is just a theme that takes up a lot of RAM and CPU cycles and slows down the whole damn PC without providing any great benefit.
By the way, for those who care to count, you can add another Windows tech / user who is in the process of switching to Linux.
Umm. (Score:3, Insightful)
What's the point.. (Score:2)
I mean, people use linux for whatever reason, but for most it's by choice and not necessity. So if it's not necessary to use it, but they still do, and then emulate the windows intereface, you might as well just choose to use windows instead of going through that whole hassle.
The Windows GUI isn't worth copying (Score:2)
1)Fitt's law violations - start button on Win2k doesn't stretch to the bottom left hand corner, context menus popup just to the right of the mouse cursor etc.
2)sub menus pop-up - sub menus are unusable on windows compared to KDE3/MacOS due to the annoyingly narrow region in which the sub menu remains activated
3)Maximize/close buttons right next to each other and tiny. Why?
4)Double-click on a fi
Re:The Windows GUI isn't worth copying (Score:2, Insightful)
Oh no!!! (Score:2)
Good news (Score:3, Funny)
Mirror of a few screenshots (Score:2, Interesting)
explorer [cmu.edu]
notepad [cmu.edu]
start menu [cmu.edu]
How stupid... (Score:2)
That whole project is a silly, stupid waste of time, because the lawyers are going to erase it from the face of the Earth. And they should, just as they should if Apple had copied the Windows 2000 interface for MacOS X and replaced the Windows logo with an Apple, as
Re:How stupid... (Score:2, Insightful)
Stockholm Effect (Score:3, Funny)
The developers need to get over the Stockholm effect!
The term "Stockholm Effect" was coined in the early 70's to describe the puzzling, completely unpredicted reactions of four bank employees who became victims of a hostage situation. Specifically, on August 23, 1973, three women and a man were taken hostage in one of the largest banks in Stockholm, Sweden by two ex-convicts. They were held for six days by these ex-convicts who continuously threatened their lives but also showed them what they later reported as small kindnesses during their detention. To the world's surprise, after a relatively short period of time, ALL FOUR OF THE HOSTAGES STRONGLY RESISTED THE GOVERNMENT'S EFFORTS TO RESCUE THEM and and WERE QUIT EAGER TO DEFEND THEIR CAPTORS
If you want to use Windows, why not use Windows? (Score:2, Insightful)
There's plenty of possible innovation in window managers. Radial menus show real promise, but we don't yet have a decent radial menu window manager, for example. And there are a lot of other examples.
Slavish imitation of somebody else's system is just stupid. If you prefer that system, go out and get it.
Not 2000 but XP (Score:2)
Windows look-a-likes are bogus - but good too (Score:5, Insightful)
I just opened up a new office with a friend of mine. Not one bit of MS anywhere in our office - it's all Linux and open source. Getting to the point - my partner can use a computer for all the necessary office tasks, but she is only a user. She is not even remotely computer savy - installing a windows program would be a nightmare for her!
Anyway, I set up her account to use the Windows XP look-a-like theme for KDE - Fischer Price colors and all. When I showed it to her, she barely raised an eyebrow. The only questions she has asked so far are about changing wallpaper and enabling email notification sounds (and she also wanted to know if Evolution would put little smiley icons in her email like AOL's software). Other than that, she just plugs away.
I wouldn't be caught dead with an XP look-a-like on my desktop, but they serve a purpose. Three years from now, my partner will have lost all recollection of how things work in windows - until then, the windows theme helps gloss over some of the differences.
Error in story submission (Score:2, Redundant)
Actually, it mimics the Windows XP look and feel and behavior, not Windows 2000. (Hence the name XPde -- "XP desktop environment.")
tech support nightmare (Score:5, Interesting)
She thinks she's using Windows because it looks like the last computer she used.
She's calling tech support because she her copy of Office doesn't install for some reason - yes, she can see the install disk in Explorer, Control Panel's Add/Remove Programs is there, but alas, she can't install it.
Why on Earth would we want to increase the confusion AND admit that Windows is the de facto desktop?!
Re:tech support nightmare (Score:3, Interesting)
Because it is? Let's not delude ourselves here, folks. Windows has 90%+ of the desktop marketshare. If Linux and/or anything else wants to take marketshare away from Windows, the only way thats going to happen is by making it easy for the users. In my mind, this means making a GUI that resembles Windows closely enough such that regular users won't skip a beat. And, from what I can tell, this is what XPde is setting out to accomplish. Let's take awa
Well that's cool I guess (Score:5, Insightful)
It's when they realize that they don't have the applications that they love, and the so-called "viable replacements" well.. suck compared to what they use on windows.
I love Unix. I'm an ex programmer and sys-admin. For the past 5 years I worked as both and concentrated on Linux, Solaris and OpenBSD. I'm a guitar teacher now because I got sick of the IT world but I still love technology and Unix with a passion and feel right at home when I'm using bash, vi, gcc etc.
But I use Windows on my desktop.
I use Windows because of applications. I do a lot of sound recording and processing when I'm at home and I just can't find viable replacements for Cubase SX, Fruityloops, Cooledit Pro, Kazaa and not to mention I'm still hooked on The Sims and I like to know that if I walk into a software store I can take anything off of the shelf and bring it home and know that it'll work.
Worst of all I hate compiling software. Yeah I know funny since I'm a coder but seriously I don't have the time in a day to spend 3 hours trying to make a program that I download work on my system. I hate downloading an rpm and having it bitch about dependencies especially dependencies that I can't satisfy.
It's not worth the trouble anymore. When I was 15 and started using Redhat 4.something it was fun and I flew. I picked it up and fell in love and I tried to convert everyone and their grandmother to Unix. But 6 years later I have a house to maintain, kids to raise, a wife to spend time with, a job to work at etc. When I sit down at the computer I expect to click a little button and have things just work. Like magic. I wanna click "download" and in 5-10 minutes be running the program. No compiling. No dependancies etc.
So to wrap all this ranting up. I'm just not sure how important a desktop enviornment that mimicks Windows is going to benefit newbies. I think applications need more thought and work first. If you have to compile it to work then it's just not worth it. If it only works on Redhat 7.2 and not Slackware then it's just not worth it. I know people realize that I just don't want to see that realization forgotten and lost.
</rant>
Re:Well that's cool I guess (Score:3, Informative)
apt-get will give you this, and with synaptic or kpackage even a GUI. Debian has apt-get (with 8,000+ apt-getable programs) and RPM-based distros such as Connectiva, SuSE, and Red Hat offer smaller (in the latter
So it looks like windows???? (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually this is just one more exammple of how extremely functional Linux can be compared to Windows.
It may not be for everyone, even I would much rather use KDE on X11 rather than XPde. But I would not fault someone for chosing to use it (or any other desktop or window manager).
In the end it all depends on what the user prefers to use. The more options, the better.
Hmmm.... (Score:3, Insightful)
The aim here should be to produce a superior interface over that which windows provides (like WindowMaker, which is superior to both MacOS UI and Windows UI).
However, there are many different WM and DE projects, and it doesn't hurt to try out several different concurrent strategies to try to convert Windows users. Some windows users will want something new, novel, and better, even if it means a little bit of a learning curve; others will want to jump right into doing things the way they normally do, and are probably the users switching over for the stability, security, good "price" provided by GNU/Linux.
So it's fine that we have all of these different options, and it's fine that many of them look like Windows. It's also fine that some of them can provide similarities to MacOS, BeOS, Amiga, and any other interface users may be attached to. However, a big problem is when people start developing apps to "only work" in one environment; e.g., apps which will only work with GNOME or KDE libraries installed. People should write apps to work in any X11 environment, and to fit in with whatever WM/DE they're placed into.
The same application which displays only windows-style horizontal menus in KDE should display only NeXT-style vertical menus in WindowMaker, and maybe only pie-style menus in SCWM. This implies some kind of universal interface for different tool-kits/WMs/DEs, where the programmer codes something equivalent to the following in pseudocode (where MI = menu item):
MI1. MI2. MI3. MI4. MI5. MI6.
MI1a MI2a MI3a MI4a MI5a MI6a
MI1b MI2b MI3b MI4b MI5b MI6b
MI1c MI2c MI3c MI4c MI5c MI6c
MI1d MI2d MI3d MI4d MI5d MI6d
MI1e MI2e MI3e MI4e MI5e MI6e
Where MI1. - MI6. are program menu's 1-6, and MIna - MInb are the submenu's of each main program menu. Now, what we need is something which will take that and automatically display it appropriately, depending on the environment. In KDE and GNOME and most other X11 environments, that would display as a windwos-style horizontal menu. In WindowMaker, it would display as a NeXT-style vertical menu, which is normally hidden but can be brought up by the user. In SCWM, it should display as a pie-menu, where selecting one item would open up a subsequent pie menu, etc. Such a meta-format would also be extended to other aspects of the program, such as toolbars, widgets, etc.
This way, the same program would look completely different, depending on what WM/DE it's run in. This way, the end-user has complete consistency in the look and feel of apps within his/her WM/DE.
They are wrong. My version of "What Linux Needs:" (Score:4, Interesting)
Someone is going to get on that machine, go to Start -> Programs looking for "Microsoft Excel" and feel like an idiot or be completely frustrated because they couldn't find it.
NO ONE has complained that people stay away from OS X "because it doesn't look like Windows." WHY are we trying to pretend that's the reason people don't try Linux?
If you want Windows people to use Linux, we need distributions to do a few things:
Ditch 3 of the 4 programs that do the same thing. Seriously. Why do I need 4 CD-R burning programs? Just give me the one that works the best, that's *all I care about* - and make sure it's labeled "CD Burner" so I don't have to decipher "gkdesbUISO." Contrary to what people here may think, we do NOT need to include every single Web Browser available. Don't put every alternative in the "Programs" menu - you hide the extra versions, and it only comes out when someone says they are an "advanced" user. Or perhaps a help option that says, "Software Doesn't Do What You Want? Try These:"
Distro installers should have a "I have never used Linux before, but I have been using Windows for 5 years" option. This will offer extra help in the form of, "If you are looking for this, you will now use this instead."
Make sure "regular" users *only* need the first CD. In the case of a 3 CD distro like Mandrake, make the additional CDs required only for developers and/or international users.
When you setup the desktop, be it either Gnome or KDE, you need to include a few "What do I do now?" icons on the desktop. I'm not talking about your "Welcome," because most of these people are illiterate or too lazy to read them, I'm talking about a few icons such as "Games," "Mozilla Web Browser," and "OpenOffice Applications." Do NOT just call the web icon "Mozilla," because these people have no idea what Mozilla even is.
I don't know if one exists yet, but we need yet-another new standard Linux portal. One that can be branded with Mandrake, RedHat, etc, but has software reviews, HOWTOs, special tips, best applications in each category, downloads, news, a forum, etc. And when you click to download a file, it is either a
Apple has the portal down to an art--take heed as it will go a long way to making them feel like they are both a part of something, and that they've just entered a Brave New World as opposed to being made to feel like an idiot because they can't find anything or get anything done.
The thing that most mainstream distros seem to be doing well, is that as soon as they are installed, 99% of the applications you will ever need are already installed and setup. With Windows, you're stuck with installing all of your software off of CD again, downloading everything again, etc, etc.
Prove me wrong now.
Jason Fisher
Re:uh? (Score:2)
The GUI is the bit that does what I tell it to do!
It's all that sinister back-end I-never-told-you-to-touch-that shinanegins that takes me the time to track down and disable . .
Seriously, of all the of things that piss me off about Windows (and before I get stuck in a zealot cross fire - I use both regularly and bits of both annoy me) the GUI is way down on the list.
P.S. Is there an accepted spelling for shinanegins? Anybody?
It's Shenanigans (was: Re:uh?) (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Embrace and extend... it works (Score:5, Insightful)
Because that is what people are used to right now.
So doing this, is embrace, and extend (since as we all know that linux is far more superior and more powerful than Windows). This strategy is in fact, how microsoft brilliantly overran so many other software markets in their quest to world domination. Fitting, now that we come back and use it on them as well.
Embracing and extending Windows, will beat them at their own game. Eventually, once people have moved over from Windows to 'Embraced Linux GUI' like the one in this article.. then they can migrate to (or just let them discover on their own) the good native linux GUI stuff a bit later on when they are more familiar..
That is the only way in fact, that linux will ever overtake the MS Windows desktop. Most non techies cannot easily make the (massive in their eyes) switch to a new desktop and OS. Embrace & extend works, is proven, and is a good strategy, and we should back it up in order to get people off the Monopoly when we can..
Re:Embrace and extend... it works (Score:2, Interesting)
How so? I admin both (in addition to HP-UX and Solaris), and have no idea what "far more superior" or "more powerful" actually means. If you're talking about remote administration, I don't see the relavance to this article.
and we should back it up in order to get people off the Monopoly when we can
Why? I don't particular care what OS someone else is running. If there was a clear and convincing reason to use Linux
Re:Embrace and extend... it works (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not sure how necessary the 'look and feel' aspect, in and of itself, is really necessary. What Linux (or, insert favorite alternate graphical OS/desktop environment here) really needs is more polish on the various little un-glamorous things that make the desktop environment, as a whole, sing. I've got my wife happily using gnome 1.4 on RH7.3, and the differences in interface operation don't bother her. What would make life more pleasant for us would be various other things like, oh, just off the top of my head:
(1) as 'root', I install a gnome app, but it goes into some completely *screwball* menu location that I removed long ago, only to show up again, with no choice(s) for me. Contrast with the install-shield stuff that gives me a choice based on currently existing menu layout.
(1a) in response to "but gnome application RPM's don't facilitate this" type responses... maybe that should go on the list too.
(2) as a normal user, a way to possibly install a self-only gnome app somewhere in the home directory (at least for the programs that aren't doing anything that needs root-level authority to do stuff). See (1) regarding giving choice of install location (both in filesystem and on the user menu)
(3) a solid network browser a la network neighborhood.
I could list off a few other gripes too (drag/drop and other non-visual things), and yes, I'm aware that such things Are Being Worked On (tm?), but this has been the case for a while. And saying "have you tried KDE?" isn't necessarily valid here... I've "started over" to get our boxes running gnome (as opposed to win'98) and I've got little motivation to "start over" again... so maybe that makes the above a bit gnome-specific (probably true). All this mainly to say that there are issues that are causing annoying little problems, and they aren't tied up specifically with how closely the desktop / window manager "mimics" the appearance of windows. Don't get me wrong, you'll get linux off my system after its pried from my cold, dead hands. (Oh, and before the "get off your butt and contribute" flamers get going, I do have a project or two in the works, thanks very much.
LinNeighborhood (Score:3, Informative)
Sorry I'm too lazy to link (use Google), but what's wrong with LinNeighborhood? I find it extremely easy to use, particularly for what I want to do (finding ALL the file shares on my campus network quickly). It isn't an "all-in-one" solution, but it's perfectly capable of calling up Midnight Commander (which I love even in Xterm windows), or you can just use konquerer/nautilus once the share is mounted. Simple - not quite as easy as the windows Network
The ROX desktop addresses these problems (Score:3, Informative)
In fact, I'd argue that it finally creates a Linux desktop that Joe Sixpack could be happy with. It doesn't spew an application's files all over the filesystem - instead it leaves them all inside the application's folder. In fact, double-clicking on the App's folder runs it! To delete a program, just delete that fol
Re:Embrace and extend... it works (Score:3, Informative)
On the desktop however, it's much different. X is slow - it's slow to start up, it's slow to open new apps and it's slow when resizing windows (well, anything more than the terminal). Not just on slow machines either - my 2 workstations here have near identical specs (Athlon 2000XP, 768MB, GF4, different motherboards and HDs), but the XP machine is
Re:Embrace and extend... it works (Score:5, Interesting)
I've thought about this some, and I actually think that as a more experienced computer user, I'm actually the one with a bigger problem switching from Windows to Linux. I think my mom would react pretty much the same way as your wife did when switching. You set her up with a few easy shortcuts, email, web browser, soitaire, and she just has 3 easy buttons to press, the same way she did before.
I, on the other hand, have to relearn just about everything I've ever known. What the hell are all these partitions for? How do I easily install and uninstall programs? Which one of these oddly named programs performs function X? I know that if I actually wanted to take the time to learn all this stuff, I could, and I'd probably be happy using Linux, but to be honest, I really don't want to spend the time. If I could, however transition over to a Linux-based system that looked and felt the same, I'd do it in a second. And by look-and-feel I don't just mean the start menu, I mean the locations of various settings, etc.
I know I can't be the only one who feels this way, and that's why I think projects like XPde are definitely worth pursuing. I looked at the screenshots and so far, I like what I see. I might even take a little time to try to get it setup and toy around with it.
Anyways, the whole point of my post was, it's alot easier for people who don't do many varied tasks on a computer to transition from clicking one of these three buttons in Windows to one of those three buttons in Linux...
Hard to switch over? (Score:3, Interesting)
I've heard this claim before but would be interested to see research or evidence to back it up. I've worked with unrepresentative small groups who have migrated to Linux from Windows with just about zero effort. My own organisation does quite a lot of training for people who are mostly Windows users but we put Linux desktops in front of them - they seem to adapt very rapidly.
Now it could be that they aren't the regular Windows user, or it could be that the rece
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:But wait... (Score:5, Insightful)
Nope. People use Linux because they like the CLI, they like Free Software, they like Open Source, they Hate Microsoft, or they're just Cheap Ethical Bastards.
Very, very few people use Linux becaues they think that it's got a better GUI than Windows.
Re:But wait... (Score:2)
People use Linux because it's a better OS. It's faster, more stable, etc etc.
Personally, I use Linux on my server, but WinXP on my desktop. I feel that the Linux desktop has still not evolved to an entirely usable state (Though I have yet to try KDE 3.1). Mainly due to the lack programs, the difficulty of application installation, and the ever-present CLI that should be entirely hidden for a true desktop OS.
Re: True CLI (Score:4, Informative)
In that case, you don't know what "CMD.EXE" is; here's a free clue, it's NOT the same as COMMAND.COM. It's a real 32 bit process, which JUST HAPPENS to emulate some DOS commands.
CMD.EXE is a real CLI to Windows, in the same way that "bash" is a CLI to Linux; it's just that bash is more configurable and more powerful. CMD.EXE is most certainly NOT a virtual machine; start one up and compare the running processes to COMMAND.COM, which will start up an NTVDM.EXE process (which is actually the NT Virtual DOS Machine you have heard about).
NTVDM is also commonly found hanging out with WOWEXEC.EXE - this is the 16 bit Windows-on-Windows process which runs Win16 applications. Win64 on Itanium will use a similar mechanism to suport Win32, probably called WOWEXEC32 or similar.
Jon.
Re:But wait... (Score:3, Insightful)
i personaly think its a great idea for people who want linux for its stability, but not have a gui thats so diferent as to make a seasoned user feel like a newbie.
Re:But wait... (Score:2)
Re:But wait... (Score:2)