Belgium: A Computer in Every Home 623
joost writes "In an article published online by Belgian newspaper 'Het Nieuwsblad' (sorry only a dutch link), Belgian minister Miss Laurette Onkelinx speaks about her plan to provide every Belgian household with a computer. The minister is (amongst other things) responsible for 'equality' and therefore pushes the plan to provide the less fortunate with a pc. In the same article, she said she already started talking to Compaq for the hardware and Microsoft for the OS. Belgian Linux users are starting a campaign to petition Miss Onkelinx's departement, explaining their concern about the decision, and advising to look towards linux for an alternative.(more on be.comp.os.linux) You too can send an email by clicking here."
So what about equality? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:So what about equality? (Score:4, Funny)
Let's just hope they don't waffle on the issue.
They Can Choose (Score:2)
Simple, they can choose which Linux they want. Many distros have downloaded versions ready.
As for the books, they can read howtos and probably contact local LUG guys. I know I'm going to be flamed for this, but most of the people needs to use computers just for typing, e-mails and browsing internet. Do you think they'll need books for this? Local LUG can volunteer here.
The aim in using Linux is to save millions so that the govt can relocate the OS budget for something else.
The Only Question Is Who Chooses (Score:2, Interesting)
Like it or not, the machines will have to have something pre-installed.
The only question is who chooses what it is the user sees the first time they power up. The user? The government? The hardware distributer?
At the very least, this is going to be interesting no matter what's chosen.
I can imagine the Belgium Linux Users Groups putting together bootable CDs designed to support the Government Hardware Standard, then giving them away free saying something like "Don't Boot Without It!!!"
Of course, my personal preference for giving away millions of MacII-ci's running System 7.1 would piss off everyone.
Bob-
Re:The Only Question Is Who Chooses (Score:2)
Simple. Ever here of FTP installs? All the BE Govt has to do is pass out boot floppies with a "pre-configured" configuration. Put the floppy in the drive, turn on the box, and bingo. It fires up the hardware (which would be a no-brainer, since they know the hardware they're handing out), connect to a server somewhere and install the OS.
Actually, this is probably better now that I think about it. The Govt would have control over what is being installed (but still maybe put in a "would you like to install anything else?" prompt). That's not suggesting draconian rules, I mean that as *NOT* installing ssh servers, and web servers, and ftp servers, etc. Things like that. You just simply can't have a country that totally free for the r00ting.
P.S.
I understand this idea wouldn't be a very good one on a dial up connection, but the idea (I think) is still a valid one.
Traditional equality? (Score:2)
God forbid they use the money saved on O$ to buy books, or that they put those books in a public library! The information anarcy must be stoped burn the libraries now.
Here is a vote for Debian, one distro that will always be free. I can see some other great uses for that O$ savings. State funded mirror sites, mmmmm, a help office with a nice little web site and staff dedicated to making EVERY piece of hardware distributed work perfectly, mmmm a tuned distro via deb packages, more computers for everyone, mmmmmmmmmm.
I've got an overwhelming urge to eat ice cream now. You M$ trolls don't go pretending to be Linux zelots flooding the emails while I'm gone. I hate it when people act like jerks for me.
Re:Traditional equality? (Score:4, Informative)
I'm all for free software just as you are, but I would never advocate sticking Debian on computers for people who have never had a computer before. apt-get is extremely useful but do you really think putting it in the hands of the masses is a good idea? Look at the recent libpng thing (I know it's not a common occurrence, but...). You and I are able to deal with that sort of thing really easily, but most people are not like us.
If you want Linux on these computers, try the more user-friendly distros like Mandrake or SuSE. The latter now automatically sets up TV cards on the initial install.
I'm not saying these distros are perfect, but they're much easier to install and maintain *for the average user* than Debian, Slackware or Redhat.
Re:Traditional equality? (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually those who have never used a computer before will have fewer issues than people who have used a different computer before.
If you want Linux on these computers, try the more user-friendly distros like Mandrake or SuSE. The latter now automatically sets up TV cards on the initial install.
This simply dosn't follow. Since installation isn't a user task in the first place.
Miss Laurette _Onkelinx_ (Score:5, Funny)
Miss Onkelinx speaks about her plan to provide every Belgian household with a computer
With a name like that, she could even get distro named after her
...if she does the right thing
Re:Miss Laurette _Onkelinx_ (Score:2)
Thoughtless Hemos... (Score:5, Offtopic)
/. is _NOT_ the place to post email addresses of individuals who are percieved not to get it. The typical
I wonder if
Re:Thoughtless Hemos? Bullshit (Score:3, Offtopic)
Gee, from the tone of your letter we might assume that people on Slashdot are rude. You abuse the people who run the site you seem to enjoy and that seems to be the sum of your contribution. Thank goodness you are not the typical Linux user.
Now let's think a little about that. What makes you think that M$ slaves are not already flooding the address with tons of abusive and stupid comments (like yours!) for us already? You know, trolls like we see here all day? In this instance, as in so many others, the finacial incentives for such "aggresive" abouse are clear. If it were not for the moderation system that Hemos and others developed, useful comments would be lost in piles of M$ astroturf here. Even so, it's difficult to fight all the toads. Your example proves the usefulness of the address inclusion, thank you.
Hopefully many people will write well reasoned letters that will shine through the noise. We all know the superiority of any Linux distro: stability, privacy, ease of use, ease of upkeep, ease of software upgrade and addition. We all know the good things that all the money not spent on M$ "products" can buy. We can write many inpired and polite letters expressing those things. I'm proud of all the useful, well reasoned and well put letters I've seen from previous letter campaigns, such as the RAND fiasco, and I expect to be proud of the letters that get sent this time too. The exercise is much easier after reading some of the nice clear posts that will rise to displace your abuse.
Re:Thoughtless Hemos? Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Thoughtless Hemos? Bullshit (Score:2)
*Hopefully* you are correct and everyone will write polite well reasoned mails, but somehow I suspect that the small handful of abusive idiots may cause more of a negative reaction than all the constructive mails put together.
Think before you email (Score:2, Insightful)
We must be courteous and kind.
NO FLAMES, this hurts their perception of the type of person that uses open source software.
Try to state things in a way that they'll understand. They need to see that Linux is a viable alternative for public use if it's implemented correctly.
Just use common sense, and don't say anything stupid.
Why push OS? (Score:3, Funny)
Or at least, this is a government project. It should be open bidding. Lets see Microsoft under-bid "free".
Bob-
Re:Why push OS? (Score:2, Informative)
Within the past month, I've set up both a RedHat 7.2 box and a Windows XP box. Being a Mac user, I have no real love for Microsoft, but I have to admit that the Windows box could hardly have been simpler to configure with all of the basic services, while the Linux box required a lot of poking and prodding to find all the right pieces to get the job done. Windows (and to an even greater extent, the Mac) is the result of a more concerted effort toward unity, while Linux is the result of many hands all pulling in different directions.
Linux's strength is also its greatest weakness.
Re:Why push OS? (Score:2)
Setting up the server was a piece of cake (reading HOWTOs and acting accordingly). Setting up an XP workstation was real tough.
Re:Why push OS? (Score:2)
You're not very evil-minded, are you? (Score:2)
Microsoft can easily do that.
All they have to do, is give out Windows preloads for free as part of this deal, and include $5 rebate certificates with the computers. -5 beats 0. "But," you say, "then Microsoft loses money."
Nope. Part of the beauty of leveraging monopolies is that you can lose in one area and make up for it in another. Give 'em Windows and sell 'em apps.
Belgians use new computer as stepping stool (Score:5, Funny)
One Belgian used his as a stepping stool while cleaning his windows. "I powered the [darn] thing up and played around with it for a few minutes but I couldn't get anything done," said Hermsh Obernikle, "then the bulb in the hallway went out and so I toted the box over then to stand on, it works great!"
One homemaker, who asked not to be identified, was at home testing out her new computer when a bandwidth crazed crimi-geek broke into her house. "Thank goodness my new computer had linux on it", she said, "the [intruder] was so mesmerized that he stayed on the computer for hours doing something with the [kernel] thing until the police arrived." She went on to say that she was glad that linux saved her life but was unsure what she was going to do with it after that.
Re:Belgians use new computer as stepping stool (Score:2)
Second that :) Real Belgian names sound like Jean-Claude Van Damme, Eddy Merckx, Jozef Plateau, Maria Deweert, Paul Smets, Wim Peters, Pieter-Paul Rubens, Sarah Bettens, you get the idea.
Why does EVERYONE have to use Linux? (Score:3, Insightful)
-- Every person in this country gets access to a computer that they might not have had at all. They get Internet access, which provides them with a wealth of new information. Some of them will pursue computer-related jobs that wouldn't have otherwise. In general, the country will benefit from this.
So why is it necessary to post an article on Slashdot basically asking people to flood this government with email complaining about Microsoft? Can we leave well enough alone and accept that the more computer-literate people there are, the better our industry benefits as a whole? These people will buy our hardware. They will visit our websites. They might even patronize Slashdot. This is a good thing.
It's sad, really, to see what should have been a "look what this great country is doing!" article turn into a pro-Linux, anti-Microsoft rant. I'd much rather see Slashdot readers take their time to go volunteer computer training or to build hardware and install software at a local school than to see Slashdot readers criticize a country for what is, in the long run, an incredibly Good Thing.
Re:Why does EVERYONE have to use Linux? (Score:2)
I mean let's face it: the vast majority of the corporate desktop computers out there run Windows, which means if the average citizen in Belgium knows how to run Windows the learning curve to get into the business environment isn't so steep. I'm sure that Microsoft will offer very substantial discounts for this project in Belgium.
Re:Why does EVERYONE have to use Linux? (Score:2)
Why does EVERYONE have to use one PC? (Score:2)
Pro Linux Rant for you troll. (Score:2)
Let's do think of the good that can be done. While dumping M$ boxes on the world may be better than dropping bombs, we can always do better if we try.
Let's say Microsoft decides to dump windows on these poor people at no cost. They should refuse on grounds of security. Why would they want to make their internet look like SirCam and "I love you" all day? Sorry, that's not a rant it's a simple statement of fact that M$ makes a single user OS that does more to cripple a machine than use it.
If M$ does not dump the reasons are even more obvious. Every Euro not spent on OS can be spent on computers. This means more people get them faster, or the savings can be put to something else useful. One useful thing might be to fund a configurations and help group to work out hardware problems and offer other general help. The publication of such a group would be of use to all. Money spent on a second rate OS from a forgein company is not money well spent.
You are obviously a man.
Re:Pro Linux Rant for you troll. (Score:3, Insightful)
The jobs these people care about are in Belgium ! How does ceding a significant percentage of the country's total GDP to Microsoft aid Belgium ?!
To empower themselves, not Microsoft (Score:2)
I urge you to please abdicate your decision to pursue having Microsoft provide software in your (noble) effort to conquer the digital divide.
If you would truly like to present the people of Belgium with an opportunity to participate in the global digital revolution, you should promote the use of free software (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html [gnu.org]). Free software empowers people to not only
* The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
* The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
* The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
* The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits. (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
Installing proprietary software, such as that produced by Microsoft, will only serve to shackle the people of Belgium to Microsoft's eternal desire for profit. While profit is a worthy objective, when it becomes the highest objective, as it has for many corporations, other worthy principles often fall to the wayside.
Since you are just beginning this venture, now is the best time to avoid the eternal dominion of Microsoft's licensing entanglements and other schemes to ensnare and entrap new legions of revenue enhancing impotent users. Avoid this path before it is too late.
Re:Why does EVERYONE have to use Windows? (Score:2)
Sorry, but one of the most basic aspects of intelligence is that you don't just look at the good side of one choice. My cat can be pretty single-minded and easily fooled, but most of the humans I know have at least a little more vision than that.
If you look at some of the other choices, such as not using Windows, you see that you have the same good points.
Then when you start looking at the bad points, the MS choice also stands out.
This "great thing" is just another perversion where socialism meets megacorp welfare. Belgium taxpayers will spend a shitload of money on hardware and software (it's not like the government can just magically declare that computers have no economic cost), and Microsoft gets an increase in marketshare (and not just in the OS market, but also by extension in other related markets, such as apps and even "content" (since the preloaded IEs will all default to some MS page)) without actually having to compete in the marketplace.
If Belgium's government made a deal with McDonalds where on January nth, every Belgium citizen gets a "free" Big Mac combo meal, would you be dancing in the streets about what a GOOD thing is coming out of this? Or would you see it as corruption?
Re:Why does EVERYONE have to use Linux? (Score:2, Interesting)
Good things are the gov gives hardware to people. This has got to be good. Bad thing is it "includes a provision for Windows", which will ensure that the poor will remain as blissfully computer illiterate as the next Windows user.
Windows users are not a computer literate bunch as a whole. I've supported at least a hundred Windows users in the past 2 years and I can tell you that most can't properly install software or drivers, back up files, create proper network shares, and are generally frustrated by the computer's inability to do what they it to do and live up to its promise of a simpler life. I don't blame them. The combination of the PC and Windows xxx just made their lives more complicated than it ever was.
This is not meant as a put-down to Windows users, but most people who work on a Windows box day in, day out know how to use email and the web, write in a word processor, and know one application very well. That's it.
So Belgian working jane with PC and Windows != computer literate working jane.
Also, no matter how you look at it, Windows costs far more to maintain. Virus scanners, Office, Outlook Express (costs a lot no matter how free it is) - all this software costs a lot of money. The lack of adequate security in Windows '98/ME. I've supported both linux workstations and all flavours of Windows, and I think I know both platforms well. Windows, Windows software, and Windows support costs bug bucks. It makes no sense to deploy Windows for this purpose. Doing so is simply creating a client lock-in.
A better solution is to at least allow them to dual-boot and give them choice. It's a simple matter to build a pc with hardware supported by both Windows and Linux, create an image, and then give the box away.
I know that today linux is as good and in some areas a better desktop OS than Windows. Office software for the home user is ready , at least 3 great browsers with more coming, mplayer once configured is a joy and plays more of my mpegs than Windows Media Player, Real is just as good and less obnoxious than on Windows/Mac, Evolution is just about there and is stable, PAN rocks for news, and the wealth of choice in the Desktop environment. Linux is there, no matter how much people don't want it to be.
Re:Why does EVERYONE have to use Linux? (Score:3, Insightful)
Part of this problem is that this list is primarily of sysadmin rather than user tasks. (except for file backing up). You might just as well ask someone who holds a driving licence about servicing an internal combustion engine...
Re:Why does EVERYONE have to use Linux? (Score:4, Insightful)
You have a computer, your friend buys a computer. 5 years down the road, you being rich and having gobs of money has upgraded or replaced your computer at least 3 times. your friend? she is poor, she saved for 3 years to buy that computer she has now. Her hardware is really behind yours now, (Why didnt you give her your last 3 processors, your SBLive you sold on ebay for $40.00, or your ATI all in wonder you sold to the computer shop for $30.00?)
You can run XP while she still has win95. well microsoft is now telling her that they are intentionally making windows95 incompatable now. (Sorry but adding code to check for win95 and bail on the install in directX is intentional)
she is now screwed, as in order to be productive she cant use windows95 and office 95 anymore she is now forced to upgrade. Windows98? cant buy it, WindowsME? cant buy it anymore. she is FORCED to buy XP which will NOT run on a pentium 200 nor fit in a 2 gig hard drive.
what is she to do? XP costs $100.00(about) and that is 2 weeks worth of groceries, or her car insurance this month. and a computer upgrade is more expensive than a new box now.. so she is forced to buy a new computer whuich will have XP on it, but that is $600-$800 something that will take another 2 years to save.
(rich geeks have no clue what it's like to struggle with not having enough money to live... and not having that latest processor is not struggling.... try not affording food this week.)
What can she do? Linux. with linux you can give her 100% free and legal copies of redhat 7.2 and she get's KDE that works well in stripped down mode on a Pentium200 (Stripped down mode is easy to set up, on first run, you set the slider bar from fast commputer to slow computer) comes with an office suite, games, full internet connetivity and apps.
being older hardware there is a 97% chance that it will install flawlessly (better odds than windows ME ot 2000 or XP... Microsoft removed older hardware drivers... dont believe me, look for yourself!)
So if you aren't rich? use linux... it's the only way to be legal and to avoid the temptation of Sorftware Piracy that runs rampant in the windows world.
Also addressing the digital divide: (Score:2)
I'd just like to put in a plug for Kite, Inc. [kiteinc.org]: "a nonprofit organization addressing the global digital divide by offering free, customized computer support packages and technical training to community groups in the 'Third World'."
Do you buy books? Then you can help them, by purchasing from galtbooks [galtbooks.com]: "The mission of galtbooks is to assist charitable and community organizations in generating revenues for their cause."
No, I am not affiliated with either organization. I only heard of them just recently, and thought "wow, I'm really glad someone's doing that". Sorry if this comes off as just more spam.
Linux, Windows or MacOS... (Score:2)
I am making an asumption here, that most of 'the less fortunate' mentioned in the article will be first-time computer users. Given this asumption, you could argue that these uers have history using other OS's, they should be able to adopt the Linux paradigm more easily than those unfortunates who were brought up using MS Windows. On the other hand, if these users are not familiar with computers it would be most beneficial to provide them with the simplest enviroment possible (and by that I don't mean WebTV). With this reasoning, the government should deploy iMAC's to everyone. You'd think Apple would jump if given the opportunity to penetrate this new market.
--CTH
Re:Linux, Windows or MacOS... (Score:2)
Sorry, linux nowhere near ready for "every home" (Score:2)
The "free" argument doesn't wash either - for such a large purchase it impossible that the government would pay the going consumer rate per install. In fact, I suspect they would pay at most 40% of the cost of being each copy of Windows independently.
No need for national ID cards (Score:3, Funny)
Nice idea but too late... (Score:2, Funny)
If only the Belgian Government had had a little more vision, films like 'Hard Target', 'Street Fighter' and 'Universal Soldier' might never have been made.
Little use in trying now. Only once every 50 years or so does something noteworthy come out of Belgium and JCVD was it for this half-century. We had our chance to stop this and we blew it...
Noooo! (Score:2, Funny)
------------
This is so Boneheaded (Score:3, Insightful)
but if people don't want one enough to get one, what are they going to do when it gets pushed through their door?
I can see Eastern Europe filling up with these units.
Yes, at most 30% of them will be used (Score:2)
Better to simply provide a tax credit, and let consumers make their own choices.
Re:This is so Boneheaded (Score:2)
When they delivered free internet (SWING), it was the most crappy service on the market, you could hardly attain 3kBps.
Now if you want to flame me about the measure being discriminatory to the rich, you're welcome. Europeans don't reason that way.
Re:This is so Boneheaded (Score:2)
But I realise Europeans don't reason that way either.
Re:This is so Boneheaded (Score:3, Interesting)
Although you have a valid point, you need to realize that this offer comes together with a bold move by the government to put everything on the internet; there are a lot of projects going on to make sure that in a few years time, it is possible to do everything online, from filling in taxes to paying a parking ticket. So a lot of people do not have a good use for a cheapo PC at this time, but that will change when all that stuff gets online (you need to interact with the government quite frequently in here) -- and when they only go get one at that time they may find themselves seriously lagging behind in skills compared to those who get a PC now.
It's pretty much the next logical step after setting up most public libraries with free internet connected PCs (which btw was done, at least in my town, using Windows ?.? + Netscape 4.7).
Comment removed (Score:3, Offtopic)
Re:slashdot infiltrated by MS! (Score:2)
Re:slashdot infiltrated by MS! (Score:2)
Re:slashdot infiltrated by MS! (Score:2)
And if they just have a basic suite like Works, it would probably cost another $50, at the very most.
I'm not necessarily for MS in this case, but you have to get the numbers right. To a certain degree, the added configuration cost of Linux would be greatly reduced as you have to assume that the platform chosen and the installation done would be carefully thought out in regards to compatibility and other issues.
I'm sorry to say it, but I just think that this Belgian project is a bad idea whichever platform they use. Computers and Internet access are inexpensive enough nowadays that they are affordable by 95% of households, especially in a prosperous country like Belgium with a very generous social security regime. Of those households that don't have them, and can afford them, why force a computer on them when they would use it as a doorstop.
And for the 5% that can't afford them, they probably have greater concerns than being able to play quake or download naked pictures Britney Spears.
This scheme is social activism at its worst.
Why not linux? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why not linux? the average home user who doesn't know crap about a computer is going to have just as hard a time with WinXP as with Mandrake setup for the home user (i.e. 1 desktop environment, 1 mailer, 1 browser, etc). Heck, maybe some of the new imacs. What I am saying is that the avergae user does not need office, they need a small word processor. They do not need exchange, they need a mail client that can do pop and recieve attachments.
I say go for it. I suggest mandrake because it's from that continent. Suse might be good as well, but i've had more experience with Mandrake.
It's been tried (sort of)... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:It's been tried (sort of)... (Score:2)
However, I do agree that giving free PC's to those that cannot or don't want to afford them is an utter waste of money, and it is an illusion to believe that those people shall be able to make good use of this investment. If someone is not interested by himself, handing out PC's won't automatically change this.
Re:It's been tried (sort of)... (Score:2)
No it isn't. It's stupid and wasteful. At least give the people a choice between a PC or a cash amount.
Most users won't know the difference (Score:5, Insightful)
Predictably, this article generated a storm of posts about how Linux isn't ready for this, or Linux would confuse users, or Windows is better supported or...
However, when you read the actual, detailed arguments about why Linux is a bad choice for this project they boil down to two things: Linux is too hard to install and there aren't enough people around who know how to use it.
In the first case, do you really think the Belgian government is going to ship each user a PC without any software on it, and a pile of CDs to install? Why don't they just ship a pile of components, while they're at it? The government is going to buy a whole bunch of identical machines pre-installed with some idential collection of software, all configured so it will run right out of the box. Whether Linux is hard or easy to install isn't really all that relevant, since the users won't have to install it. And, unlike Windows 9x systems that experience an "entropy" effect whereby they gradually become less and less usable until finally you have to reinstall them, Linux boxes tend to run forever.
Second, in an environment filled with Linux boxes, how long do you think it'll be before the average person can call the neighbor kid over to fix any problems? Not long at all. On well-known hardware, with a nice GUI installed Linux isn't any harder to use than Windows, it's just *different* (and not really all that much different). Not to mention the fact that if the Belgian government took all of that cash that they were going to spend on Windows and Office licenses and instead spent it on setting up a support infrastructure for those machines, the net result would probably be *better* support.
There are also some really significant advantages to free software in this situation. The largest one is the application software available. What? Absolutely. Yes, there is more software available for Windows machines, but there is more *free* software available for Linux. Both environments include the most basic stuff by default; browser, e-mail client and multimedia player. Unless you buy Office for each machine ($$) Windows doesn't have a word processor, spreadsheet, etc. Unless you buy Quicken or Money for each machine, no personal accounting system. MS Paint hardly counts as an image editing program.
A pre-installed Linux box with KDE, an office suite (StarOffice would be ideal, I'll bet Sun would give them free licenses) and the standard collection of packages that come with every distro would provide a low-cost, easy to support solution that does pretty much everything a basic user needs right out of the box. No command lines, no arcane syntax -- except for the kids who have tons of time to invest in learning how this thing ticks, and what better system could an up-and-coming techie have? (And don't give me that "They should have a Windows box because that's what they'll use in the workplace" crap. What they'll use in the workplace will change five times before they get there, and it will be deep understanding of how one system fundamentally works under the covers that will translate well and stand them in good stead, not superficial knowledge of which buttons to click. Hell, I grew up on a Timex Sinclar 1000, a TI-99/4A, a Commodore 64 and an Atari 520ST.)
Re:Most users won't know the difference (Score:4, Insightful)
Great, now you have a few thousand computers with identical root passwords! Even if these are changed upon booting up, it's generally not recommended to run as root, but a 'newbie' would not know this. Oh yes, and setting up another account with enough access to do whatever they need, but not enough to be insecure? Might as well just use root
Not to mention that to someone just powering on his or her new computer, being greeted with a login must be a nightmare
Whether Linux is hard or easy to install isn't really all that relevant, since the users won't have to install it. And, unlike Windows 9x systems that experience an "entropy" effect whereby they gradually become less and less usable until finally you have to reinstall them, Linux boxes tend to run forever.
Linux is a bit easier to break than windows
Now I know that the first time that happened to me, I had no one to turn to for a solution, I got very frustrated
Basically, Windows is going to crash and burn, that's a given, but so will Linux, especially in the hands of a very inexperienced user. Because of this, the installation ease will only further allow the person to use the machine again.
Windows doesn't have a word processor
True, windows does not have a very feature-rich word processor, or anything close to what the Office suit has to offer, but it does have Word Pad. Still if it's coming from Compaq I've got strong suspicions it'll be equipped with at least something, if only Works.
and it will be deep understanding of how one system fundamentally works under the covers that will translate well and stand them in good stead, not superficial knowledge of which buttons to click.
I can't really argue with this other than if they do not use the computer because it is too complicated, it won't matter anyhow.
Besides, since Linux is free, after all, wouldn't any adventurous spirit just install a flavor of Linux for themselves? Installation is pretty simple. All arguments aside, if you cannot install Linux, you have no business using it, since it is very complex. Even most HOWTO guides get technical. This is of course appropriate due to the typical Linux audience, Linux familiar, just looking for some finer details. (Go ahead and tell some new computer user to type man rpm and learn from that how to install an rpm package
Maybe my perception of windows' simplicity is tainted by my experience with it, but maybe your perceptions of Linux' simplicity is as well. I'd personally like to see these people get iMacs. It's a very simple operating system, yet very capable. Still, I cannot say that I know what the standard computer platform is there, so PC might be the main choice strictly for compatibility with the rest of the country.
Granted I do not support Windows, Linux, or MacOS any more than the rest, I do believe that some of the Slashdot audience is blinded by the 'Linux is god' frame of mind, very similar to a mob. Each operating system has it's own niche that it fills. If Linux immediately tried to take Windows' niche, I doubt it would still be around today. It has, instead, found it's own space and began developing into one that can expand to fill other niches as well. However, I do not believe it is by any means ready for this type of market.
I apologies for the fact that this is an over posted argument, but I felt compelled to respond to his statements which overlook such arguments.
Re:Most users won't know the difference (Score:3, Insightful)
A real newbie could probably read instructions which explained that "root" was a special account for setup and servicing purposed. The people who'd have a problem would be those who were familiar with the likes of Windows.
Granted you will still get it in XP, they can always configure it from the images to load the default user account automatically, without a login.
IIRC with XP every user has admin priveleges by default
Even if this is not the case, WinXP is much more appealing in the login process than KDE/Gnome.
Exactly how do you reason that. Especially considering that parts of the XP login rip off kdm...
Linux is a bit easier to break than windows
Ever heard of reiesrfs, xfs, ext3.
Besides most likely Windows XP would be the operating system of choice.
Windows XP has a log filesystem???
Re:Most users won't know the difference (Score:4, Insightful)
I probably shouldn't be feeding trolls since I have work to do, but what the heck ...
DISCLAIMER: I use Ximian Gnome. KDE might do some of this stuff, too, I just don't know about it. Feel free to chime in in support of KDE rather than flame me for being anti-KDE. :)
Great, now you have a few thousand computers with identical root passwords!
I'm glad you're not my sysadmin. An even halfway decent one would have a little script that sets the root account password to something slightly different for each machine, turns off all dangerous services (in this case 'dangerous' includes all forms of connecting to the box) and creates a unique user account and password.
Not to mention that to someone just powering on his or her new computer, being greeted with a login must be a nightmare ... Granted you will still get it in XP, they can always configure it from the images to load the default user account automatically, without a login. Even if this is not the case, WinXP is much more appealing in the login process than KDE/Gnome
You can do this in Ximian Gnome, too. And most people I've talked to (non-technical ones included) think that the look and feel of XP is something out of Fischer-Price, not Microsoft; it's childish and just looks ugly.
Linux is a bit easier to break than windows ... Ever powered off a Linux machine without halting it? Sometimes it makes u type in commands just to get it to boot up ... Not only that, Netscape Navigator tends to crash, and bring everything down with it (very similar to an Internet Explorer and Windows 98 effect) Besides most likely Windows XP would be the operating system of choice.
I have a journaled fs (default in RH 7.2) and I've had the power go out from under it three times in the past six months (including 7.2 beta). Each time my 13 GB IDE partition recovered in about 5 seconds, no problems, no error messages. The times where my FS is so fsck'ed that I need to manually repair usually means it's about time for me to send it back (I was a sysadmin for a cluster of 300+ machines, so this isn't just me talking about my piddly home system).
The other (very obvious) solution to Netscape crashing and taking down X (not Linux, just X) is don't use Netscape! Use galeon or mozilla. I use galeon and am very happy with it. It's fast, reliable, and has tons of neat features.
All arguments aside, if you cannot install Linux, you have no business using it.
Bzzzzt! Sorry, try again. I spent two hours setting up and fully configuring a Linux partition for my fiancee, and she hasn't bothered to boot into Windows since. She uses e-mail, web browses, does some work processing, and plays some games (which work fine under wine). She's non-technical, and has no clue what ARP is, why an ethernet card sending to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff doesn't work, or how to use ifconfig to fix it. But if a 3com driver craps out in windows, do you think the average user is going to fix it themselves? Hell no, they're going to call tech support.
(Go ahead and tell some new computer user to type man rpm and learn from that how to install an rpm package ... Due to the various different desktop options, there haven't been many graphical guides to how to do something and they opt for command based ones instead.
Bzzzt! Care to try again? Red Carpet is a great package management tool, and includes an option to install local packages. I spent about 30 seconds showing a non-techie how to use it, and she was good to go from there ("You mean I just click on the software I want and it does everything for me? Neat.")
I will grant you that applications for Linux are a bit thin, but wine can take care of most of that pretty well. Linux distributions have made great software over the last two or three years, and it's (obviously) only going to get better. Whether this is going to have any effect is yet to be seen, but arguing against it on technical grounds is no longer really valid.
-jdm
Excuse me while I don my tin hat (Score:2)
Computers, however, are a bit of a problem. Yes, I know the government puts them in libraries and schools allready, but computers (nowadays) are a communication device, and it is very easy to make them into a propoganda device. Government paying to put propoganda into libraries, and unfortunately public schools, is basically unavoidable (you can have meritocrats make the decisions, but that hurts as often as it helps,) but in people's homes? Everyone's homes?
It may just be the capitalist mind control rays making me say this, but - most of the people who get these computers aren't going to be especially computer literate, and if some flemmish speaking prole gets a computer from the government he is unlikely to reconfigure it when he gets home from a long day at the football riot
Alternatively, they can sell it to the highest bidder - if I were M$ I'd give them the OS and help pay for the machines (which have gotta be cheap at the moment) so that I could bundle all this
Outdated premises are tainting the discussion here (Score:5, Insightful)
Under these circumstances, damn near every objection raised to every OS I've seen mentioned are meaningless. If this went through, it would be a different world.
So OS N has some rough spots. So what? You neighbors all have OS N too. Every kid on the block has been exposed to OS N. A country full of people are working on helping each other learn the OS and "making it go".
Frankly, the discussion boils down to ONLY one issue, and that's "Proprietary or open?" And the answer is clear: Open.
A proprietary OS puts an entire country at the mercy of the vendor. While the country will certainly have a lot of "pull", you can bet that the marketing department of the company is going to get more and more brazen over time, and they DON'T have your best interests at heart.
An Open OS, be it Linux, FreeBSD, or whatever, imposes nothing on Belgium. Certainly if Belgium is going to put a computer in every home, they can afford to make their own distro, which can be as easy or as hard to use as they want, even to the TiVo extreme.
Everything changes when you're talking about a country in which every person you meet on the street has had experience with the OS you're using. (God knows Windows isn't the dream it's being portrayed as... or haven't you helped a new person learn Windows lately?)
Upshot: A proprietary OS will meet the needs of the developing company. An open OS meets the needs of Belgium. The choice is clear. Old arguments are irrelevant. Willingly selling an entire country into vendor-lockin is analogous to selling Manhatten Island for the proverbial handful of glass beads.
Re:Outdated premises are tainting the discussion h (Score:2)
I find it is more important to give new people a smack on the butt, a thorough bath, a warm towel, and a bottle. Otherwise, I doubt they'd live long enough to even learn what a window was.
This can't work everywhere (Score:5, Insightful)
Where I live, people are generally quick to accept technology, and like everywhere else, it has become a symbol of status. The guy that _tries_ to wash your windshield in a streetlight has a pre-paid cellphone here. Hell, ALL cellphone accessories are sold AT streetlights here. There are entire towns where houses are put together, rather than built, using materials and methods I still cannot comprehend, boldly defying conventional wisdom and the laws of physics, and yet they all have 2-3 25"+ TV sets, Big Stereo equipment, VHS, one generation old video game systems and more. Some even have satellite TV. We're talking about people that make $200-$500/month. And that's household income.
And yet I'm of the opinion that putting a computer in every home would not solve the problem of the so called digital divide, in fact, I think it would make it worse. Here's my rationale:
If a computer was given for free to every person in my country that can't (or won't) afford one, more than 95% of the people would break it, put it away, sell it (if market price doesn't go down too much), and in general, not value them for what they're worth (economically and intelectually). There are a lot of legitimate cases where people really need one and can't afford it, but even those would probably not value them as much as if they had worked and saved money for their own.
Sure, some 5% of the people would change their lives by having access to a computer, learning how to use it, hooking up to the Intenret an having access to all the information that's available (the good AND the bad which forces you to develop critical thinking). After all, this is similar to what happened to me when my parents won $10,000 in the lottery and bought me a $2,000 PC 10 years ago (now I have a consulting firm and i'm doing pretty well, thank you).
The problem is, you would still have a mayority that not only can't but won't use a computer, and a minority that does. Digital Divide anyone? Only this time it's not economically based, but intelectually based.
It's all a cultural problem. Most people don't use computers because they don't know how good it would be for them, for their carriers, for developing critical thinking, for improving their competitivenes (professionally), for having access to much more information, for improving productivity, etc.
This is not very different from someone giving you a supersonic jet for free, and telling you it's much better than your Honda Civic. There isn't much I can do with a supersonic jet to be honest, I see no reason to learn to fly if I can get around with my Jetta pretty well. Besides, they say learning to fly is very very hard, so why waste my time? Well, maybe I could sell that Jet to someone that does fly!
I believe the only way to actually close the Digital Divide (God, I hate clichés) is to improve the cultural level of developing populations, promote critical thinking, make people understand that they have to "work for it", and that in the end it's worth it (what capitalism is based on), and THEN let them BUY computers real cheap. Never give them away.
There's this little anectdote I want to share before I wrap this up. About 30 years ago there was this military dictator in Panama. A guy called Torrijos. Most people agree he was a pretty cool guy. You've probably heard that name if you're older than 20 and know a bit of history. Anyways, he used to give food and money away to people in a provice called Colon, the second largest city here. After a very short while, they got used to getting everything for free, and just adored the guy. Torrijos died in 1981 (they say it was Noriega, but who knows...)
Three years ago we were going to build an earth station in Colon, wire the area with fiber optics, provide local ISP service, etc. I interviewed over 40 Colon residents for different low level possitions. Nobody would work after 5PM (even when you pay the extra hours). The few we actually hired, would never, ever show up on time for work, and when they did you could still smell the alcohol. We decided to close the shop very quickly. Last week, MONADESCO (Colon Unemployed Movement) was barricading the streets of Colon. They want Jobs (as long as they don't have to work). They want food. They want money. You wanna give these guys free computers? right.
Hm... (Score:2)
How to get Dutch to English translation? (Score:2)
The fish doesn't
English translation! (Score:5, Informative)
libux .be Re:English translation! (Score:2)
linux.be [linux.be][dutch only] joost is a big submitter there.
But since the link is wrong, so for for "Read the article first.".
Correct link (Score:2)
Cable in Belgium (Score:2, Funny)
Damn, there goes my bandwidth.
Re:Cable in Belgium (Score:2)
Better : computers in public libraries and schools (Score:2)
A better use of the money would be to have computers in publicly accessible places like libraries.
They would be also appropriate in schools where proper training of teachers would be required so that they don't become m$ point'n-click zealots and teach it. Then, when the kids will be adults, they will be well educated, get a job or better, create a company and don't need a free computer paid by those who work.
If you give a computer to a man, he will play quake until windows crashes but if you teach him linux, he will be able to do whatever he wants with a computer for the rest of his life.
I'm Belgian (Score:5, Insightful)
In order to evaluate the proposal to give away free computers to everyone, one has to know one or two things about Belgium.
First (and hopefully commonly known) Belgium is divided in two parts, one part speaking Dutch (5.5 million inhabitants), and another part speaking French (4.5 million inhabitants).
Second: the Dutch part is economically doing a great deal better than the French part. This is true when you evaluate on number of unemployed people, average wages, ...
Third: There have been socialists in our government for the last 50 years or so. Hence there is a lot of protection for the 'needy'. For example: Belgium has just about the highest income-tax in Europe (to startle some Americans: I (and my wife) pay 55% taxes on our income. Another example: Belgium has the highest rate of people getting money from government compared to working people. A staggering 103 people getting unemployment, disability, pension, ... per 100 working people. For comparison: France has 90/100, US has 60/100.
Last: As people are most concerned about themselves (this merrits a '-1 obvious') the 103 vote socialist to get more money/computers/free healthcare/whatever from the government. The 100 vote liberal (or central Christian) to pay less taxes.
Minister Onckelinckx is, as you may have gathered by now, a member of the socialist party of the French speaking part of Belgium. Her proposal is therefore perhaps great for the people that vote for her, but it obviously isn't for those (like me) that have to pay the bills.
On a side note: I wouldn't be at all surprised if that would turn out to be 'Pay the Bill'.
This proposal will eventually be burried, like so many other proposals from our ministers. A green party minister once suggested to close our national airport at night because of noise-problems. It's like all ministers agreed to each get a week in which they can try to step into the light by making the silliest possible suggestions. I'd suggest not paying too much attention to it.
manicheism (Score:4, Insightful)
please note that me and my family relied on public assistance in the past (unfortunately). We never voted for socialists. Also, there are a lot of working people who vote for socialists.
I think your opinion is full of manicheism. the Dutch part is economically doing a great deal better than the French part mmh yes but what's the point ? The region of Liège is doing better than the region of Charleroi, the region of Brussels (french speaking at 80 pc) is doing better than some places in the dutch part and the dutch part is doing better than a lot of places in Europe (congratulations).
So what's the point of comparing linguistic regions on an economic basis ? Maybe the propaganda of some political people works in a way. What is funny is that some (all ?) of them want brussels as the capital of Vlaanderen. Looks like some french speaking people are necessary anyway.
All in all, I also think that some people are cheating on the welfare state and it is also possible that there are more of them in the french speaking side of the country (though some do not speak french). BUT I REFUSE THAT ANY CITIZEN CAN BE PUT IN A CATEGORY BECAUSE OF HIS LANGUAGE OR ETHNICS OR RELIGION, etc. More precisely, I consider stupid the opinions that "unemployed people are lazy", "walloons are lazy" and so on.
Concerning the silly suggestion concerning the airport, I suppose you do not live in Zaventem.
Equality (Score:2)
This smells like a belated attempt to jump on the Internet bandwagon to me. Why don't citizens get equal automobiles issued to them at the voting age? Why aren't citizens assigned to identical housing units? Why don't citizens queue every week at the supermarket to collect their equal shopping baskets of goods?
I strongly recommend that anyone who favors the idea of spending so much money on computers read Silicon Snake Oil [amazon.co.uk] by Clifford Stoll. In this book, he presents a compelling argument that, in education, the money would far better be spent on hiring more and better teachers, and actually taking the kids to museums rather than sitting them down in front of PCs loaded with CDROM encylopaedias. And in business, computers aren't the productivity panacea that they're touted as.
And, on
No OS (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:This would be a great success... (Score:2, Insightful)
for linux on the desktop, and equality in technology, if only they would use linux.
Don't get me wrong, linux is a great OS, BUT do you seriously think it's ready for deploying on a large scale as a general desktop?
What about apps?
Re:This would be a great success... (Score:2, Interesting)
mlk, not really sure that Linux is the best choice. AtheOS maybe (in a few years
Re:This would be a great success... (Score:2, Insightful)
Luckily for those of you who don't want free market share given to MS, socialist plans like this are doomed to failure anyway.
Re:This would be a great success... (Score:2)
If you've ever seen anyone using a computer for the first time, there really is no difference between KDE2, Windows... they suck on both of 'em.
I think the only reason why Windows seems easier to learn is that it doesn't have the advanced options that Linux has. And since the people who teach others are normally advanced and they teach how they use the system themselves... which is why people get scared with Linux when a guru goes straight to the command line and edits config files, even though there happens to be a perfectly usable and "user friendly" GUI to perform the same task.
So what we really need is people who are better at teaching Linux.
As an analogy, the average Linux user trying to teaching a newbie is the same as Shakespeare using Romeo and Juliet to learn somebody how to read... Whilst a Windows user never reads books that don't have big pictures and less than 50 pages.
Harsh, but about true, I think....
Re:Is linux really the right choice? (Score:3, Insightful)
A don't forget the plan is to provide the less fortunate with a pc to me, less fortunate probably means less educated as much as anything (generally speaking); would these people seriously use a linux pc?
Don't get me wrong, I love linux, but it's not for everyone YET
Re:Is linux really the right choice? (Score:4, Informative)
With a Linux system there could be specially constructed versions for different levels of experience and different needs, there could be 'upgrade' CDs that will reconfigure machines to take users to a new level.
With Windows/Office you _must_ do it the way MS want, and must pay. If a Linux system is used it can be done the way that users want.
Garbage. Just to address your example, double-clicking a menu item will work fine, and I see people do this at work all the time, as well as people who double-click hyperlinks. As far as single clicking, ever since IE 4.0 Desktop integration you've been able to make any icon, file, or executable in an Explorer window (the desktop is one) launchable with a single click.
On the whole, people who are only interested in trashing Microsoft don't realize how customizeable it truly is. One day my interest got piqued, and I started browsing around msdn.microsoft.com/library to figure out how the Google toolbar manages to add items to the IE right-click context menu. It turns out that I was able to write my own mini-script which allowed me to select text in an IE window, right-click and select "ROT-13" and, obviously, ROT-13 the text right in place. I was able to do the same thing with a textbox (like what I am typing in right now). I did this solely with the information in the MSDN library on the API and a little VBScript knowhow, in about an hour. One can develop plug-ins and add-ins for just about any feature in Windows or any of the Office suite apps, anywhere from writing VBA (Visual Basic for Applications, which is built into every Office App) up to writing and compiling a dll in Visual C and using it as an add-in. In short, the argument that MS is not configurable is complete shite.
Re:Is linux really the right choice? (Score:2)
Re:I don't suppose... (Score:2, Interesting)
mlk
[1] Assuming
a) Be Inc was alive/OpenBeOS had a little more time
b) The Browser Situaltion was looked after
c) BeOS had a better locale kit
Hardware (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:ms vs. linux (Score:2, Interesting)
To bad Solaris SUCKS for desktop usage. There has been a bug in Suns X-server for ~5 years now that allows you to remotely crash another users X-server if they use Zephyr. There are several other known crash-exploits for this bug as well. The bug is still open. Never existed in XFree86.
Re:ms vs. linux (Score:2)
I agree. The freedom of not being locked into a proprietary solution and platform independance is a much bigger factor. Of course, this assumes people decide to look more than a few months into the future, which it seems no one will, except insightful university-level people such as yourself. Also, as is often taught in universities, the potential cost of backdoors and bugs that aren't reported in security-through-obscurity systems will often outweigh the cost of the OS itself!
Most importantly, and so often referenced by upper level educational instituions such as yours, is the inherent cost involved in using a system which you cannot yourself fix. A system which requires constant outside intervention will very quickly cause a huge support bill, nevermind the headache all the support technicians will end up with!
Of course, as someone who works at a university, I'm certain you are well aware of these problems surrounding OSes for which full disclosure of the code isn't aviailible, for which very poor API documentation is availiable, and for which support costs an arm and a leg. And, as a university equipment purchaser, I'm certain you understand that the staff and students at the university itself are able to repair any problems found themselves, should they be given access to the necessary tools, ensuring support costs are extremely low and repairs are lightning quick.
I'm glad you made the right decision and put BSD on all your systems. However, I'm not certain where Linux fails in the above requiremnts. Perhaps you'd care to explain.
Thank you.
Distributing Companies (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Distributing Companies (Score:2)
That's interesting and I'd give you a mod point if I had any. Which would actually be better? Deploy Windows which "everyone" knows and tech support can easily be had from a neighbour or friend. Or, deploy Linux and provide extensive support for it?
License cost vs. support cost, it'd be a whole lot more interesting to see Linux deployed and get to see how it actually fares on such a large scale and variety of users.
Re:This isnt USA (Score:2, Funny)
Ok, I'll bite...
Excactly, because as everyone knows, Europe is strongly underdeveloped and cannot compete at all with the superior technology that is so common in the US, I heard a rumour you guys even have indoor toilets and horseless wagons! So no way that any european would know one OS from another.
</sarcasm>Re:This isnt USA (Score:2)
*grin* Nice one... :)
Belgium is doing pretty well actually for technology...people don't usually realise that Belgium is a world leader in ADSL technology.
From internal news at Belgacom [belgacom.be]:
All switching centres in Belgium are ADSL enabled - and the first one was enabled in 1998. Not too shabby I think... :)
-- Pete.
Re:Linux on the desktop? (Score:3, Troll)
How's would that be any different than introducing them to Windows? It's not like there's anyone who is going to volunteer to do free tech support for a Belgium-sized population of Windows users, either.
It looks like one of the aspects of this thing is that these computers would be for people who don't already have computers. So the people who "need" (I use that term very loosely) these computers are less likely to already be Windows-trained than the general population. They're blank slates.
And when someone's a blank slate, any OS is just about as easy-to-learn as any other OS. If you don't believe that, watch a Win9x/NT/2k/XP newbie try to copy a file with "explorer" sometime, vs newbies on any other platform. The Mac newbies get it a little bit sooner, and after that, most other platforms are tied for second place.
Social Standards (Score:3, Insightful)
Instead, they use words like "equality" with the meaning of "equal outcome" rather than just "equal under the law." Their tax rates are very high, and as long as people go along with what the government programs provide, people are "happy" the same way that worker ants are "happy".
Problems occur in such a situation if you introduce too much choice. This leads to un-equal outcomes, resentment or resistance to one-size-fits-all government programs, and increasing unease since someone always feels "left out" because their outcome wasn't as good, in their opinion, as someone elses.
I really hope this program does not come to pass. 25 years ago, France decided to do this same thing, with their Mintel program. Its 300 baud command line time sharing system was advanced, at the time, but France was left in the toilet as the rest of the world developed graphical applications and interfaces, distributed information sources and efficient IP networks.
However, the only cost to government is the rare risk that a politician might not get re-elected. There is no other "cost", since they spend other peoples money. For that reason, the politicians of today may very well repeat the Mintel disaster simply because it looks good in time for the next election. Everything else is secondary.
Bob-
Nuance (Score:2)
Re:Let's be realistic (Score:3)
Errr, why? If every household in the country has the same configuration, the barrier to entry to Linux for the computer illeriterate becomes reduced... they can talk to the neightbours about their problems! The market penetration will become great enough that social factors will overcome things that are normally an issue.
Re:Let's be realistic (Score:2)
My father (who is by all means not a techie) uses Linux daily to play LOKI games. I did the installation, but usage is as simple as can be.
By many aspects, Linux is easier than Windows. It's easier for the experts, and it's just the same on the basic level.
Re:Let's be realistic (Score:2)
howmany linux people would admin my firewall (on a casual basis) for less then $100/hour au. ($200/hour us)
How many competent firewall administrators would admin a firewall on a Windows box for less than $100/hour au? You're confusing two different things. Administrating a firewall is a complex, technical job and should be well-compensated.
Also, you asked what happens when something goes wrong: Well, if the box is installed correctly to begin with, it's far less likely that something will go wrong that it is with Windows.
Finally, either you have the wrong conversion rate or you worked it backwards -- $100 AU is approxumately $50 US.
Re:Let's be realistic (Score:4, Insightful)
This is unfortunately true - despite huge gains in ease-of-use, Linux is still not ready for my grandma.
My Grandma has no problem with it. I find I do a lot *less* maintenance on her computer since I switched her over. Well, actually, I find I do none. From her point of view it's pretty much the same as it always was: click this icon for e-mail, this one to type letters, this one to work on your genealogy...
The only way that I can see your Grandma would have a hard time with Linux is if she was middling-competent with Windows, i.e. able to install and remove software, change configuration options, etc.
Linux is easier for experts, the same level of difficulty for the clueless and somewhat harder for the intermediate user, IMO.
Neither is Windows... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Neither is Windows... (Score:2, Insightful)
Click on "Start" button to shut down machine is not intuitive or "easy
I've heard this "start button to shut down != intuitive" bullshit time and time again.
Think about it logicaly for a second. When you turn on your computer and get a desktop for the first time. The only thing you have is a few "my computer" type icons and a start button. So you click on the start button. You discover that it brings up a ment with lots of options. You start reading these options, and supprise supprise, you find that shutdown is the first option. BANG! - You have just learnt how to shut down the computer. If you didn't, not to worry, because you will soon learn that start is your "menu for all".
Using the above concept, how user friendly would this system be if "start" was replaced by a picture of a apple, or a foot or a "KDE"? -
BUT, if you are still not convenced, just hit the power button, power management will take care of the rest on a windows system and give you a graceful shutdown.
Re:Neither is Windows... (Score:2)
shutdown -r now
And do it now, not later. NOW!
Not really (Score:2)
Re:.. and they all will run Windows! (Score:2)
But I cannot completely agree.
A TV-set is not a computer. A computer is a much more complex piece of machinery.
There is absolutely no reason to know how a tv works. It has to do one thing, and that's to show tv programs on a screen.
A computer can do the same, with a tv-card and a monitor. But you can also use a computer for writing mails, recording/editing video, phone/fax, scanning/printing, whatever.
Sure, you can use a computer for a few simple tasks, like just wordprocessing, mailing and browsing the web. But for that you can just as well use linux, windows or macos.
Linux is not perfect. The first priority was stability, the second priority is gui (imo in this context). Some people say it's ready, but it's not quite there yet.
Windows is not perfect either. The first priority was gui, the second priority is stability. Some people say it's stable, but it's not quite there yet.
Just a sidenote:
When your tv is broken, the repairman might even tell you to just buy a new one, because it's cheaper then the repair.
What would you say when your computer had a major crash and the repairman told you to just buy a new one?
This wouldn't make sense to me.