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Technology

Pioneer to sell first recordable DVD decks 152

Posted by Hemos from the get-ready-for-the-pirating dept.
Element5 writes "Netcenter's Tech News reports that Pioneer will be selling the first DVD players (not DVD-ROM drives) to be able to record up to six hours of programming to rewritable discs. Check out the story. Pricing is high, as expected: $2399 US for the unit, $28.79 per disc. " And watch closely, as the film industry gets a panicked look in their eyes. Update: 11/27 08:47 by H : Thanks to Jim Choate for the story that Panasonic has introduced DVD-RAM for only 700$US.
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Pioneer to sell first recordable DVD decks More

Pioneer to sell first recordable DVD decks

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  • Maybe the SW trilogy, or six hours of Looney Toons, or six hours of porn. If someone wants six hours of stuff on a single ~$29 disc rather than pay ~$87 for three discs with two hours of stuff on each, they'll do it.

    >Clueless journalists!
    Clueless poster! Next time, *think*.
  • On the bottom of the linked page [netscape.com] is an even better article- 'UK Men Use Internet to Buy Women to Browse-Study'.Oh wait, there's a comma in there...
  • DVD-RAM's as they're called have been around for about 2 years. All you needed to record TV shows was a recording program and CD recording software. On a 5 gig DVD-RAM you can store 2 hours of 640x480 15fps MJPA movies, or a virtually unlimited size MPEG-I movie. The hardware only costs $500 today. A blank DVD-RAM costs $25, and is fixed to match the cost of official movie releases.
  • Sounds like a pretty standard definition of theft to me. In the UK (where I am) a person commits theft if he "dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it" (Theft Act 1968 Section 1). I believe the USA has a similar definition and I would think most other common law jurisdictions would too, if you know better please cite the relevant definition.

    The "property" in this case is the legal right to copy. The owner continues to have that right, there is no way that someone can take it away from him other than by legal means. Widespread violation of this legal right might reduce the value of their property but they are not deprived of it. It is not theft.

    That's not a comment on morality, not does it change the fact that breach of copyright is illlegal. But it really really really isn't theft.

  • The creative DVD-ram does not use traditional DVD's, but rather a special format only unsable by creative dvd-rams. They're not even playable in regular DVD-players. There is a picture of these square dvd-rams here [soundblaster.com].As I understand, the pioneer device's discs can be played in standard dvd-drives.

  • Too late; it's already here. Ia ia Shub-Internet [tuxedo.org] fhtagn!

    Shub-Internet:

    * Forces people to consume HARD-CORE PORN!
    * Lures YOUNG KIDS to COMPLETE STRANGERS!
    * CONS people out of their MONEY on E-BAY!
    * Lets those evil CRYPTO-FREAKS conspire secretly!
    * Forces your EMPLOYEES to do ZERO work in a day!

    Quick! Ban the Internet!

  • Re:think price ... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Yes, but the movie studios are indicating that they are going to go to the VHS pricing model with DVD in 2000, so upon initial release most movies will be $80. or higher.

  • It wasn't intended as a troll. Works pretty well as one, though.
    --
  • Screw movies. I just want to use DVD-RAM to store home videos, preferrable recorded with a digital video camera. How soon will that be reasonably affordable?
  • Yup. We still go to movie theaters for some shows and some reasons. Big screen, better sound, more companions..

    The movie makers are making more money because now we're willing to pay a little for a movie we didn't think was worth the expense of a theater visit. So the video retailer gets a little money from many people and the movier makers get a little money from people who probably would have never paid to see the movie in a theater.

    Sure, I could use my VCRs to copy rented videos. The few movies worth watching several times are cheap enough to buy. A little more money for the movie makers.

    I use my VCR to time-shift a few favorite shows to times when it is convenient to watch them. That's of value to me, and the advertisers get me to see their commercials eventually.

  • What's the least expensive you've found?
    --
  • The Pioneer uses DVD-RW. Unlike DVD-RAM, DVD-RW us playable on ordinary DVD players. It's a different system. $500 doesn't buy you *the computer hardware* that you need to encode the movie either, which is what's in the Pioneer box. It's a consumer item, not a geek toy.
  • First CD writer I ever saw in a catalog
    was $5000. They have come down since.

    How many mp3's could be put on a DVD?
  • In your example, if you intended to permanently deprive the owner of the BMW then this would indeed be theft. You have appropriated his property with the intention of permanently depriving him of it. The leaving of money to compensate is irrelevant, even if you left the full sale value of the car or ten times the sale value of the car, in that case the dealer might be perfectly happy and not report it but it would be theft unless he actually agreed to the bargain. Until he actualy agreed to sell you the car it would still be his property.

    If you just understand that there are two elements, 1. appropriating (taking if you like) someone's property, 2. intending to permanently deprive them of it, then you should be able to understand whether something constitutes theft.

    In the case of illegally copying software, the owner retains his propert throughout. In this case the property he has is the legal right to copy the software, and he retains that right intact. There is no way that you can appropriate his right other than through legal means. Equally you don't appropriate the potential sales proceeds, as the software isn't purchased the sale proveeds never become his property, any money the copier has remains theirs throughout.

    Now, you might think that it is morally equivalent to theft, that's fair enough. But saying you are doing the same thing is simply untrue - the definition of theft in most jurisdictions is very clear and clearly does not cover breaches of copyright law. If you feel that describing it as "theft" is a good analogy that gets across what you see as the moral equivalence then go ahead, but when challenged you need to show that you know what you're doing "I know it's not actually theft, but I use the word as an analogy", something like that. Insisting that the other person is using an unusual definition is silly unless you can substantiate that.

    If you want to use accurate experssions, then "breach of copyright", "violation of copyright laws", "illegal copying" all seem like reasonable terms.
  • Are there any digital inputs on these suckers? If so, wouldn't it only make the situation with DeCSS worse? Without a doubt, people would find a way to take video from the dvd discs and copy them in their original digital glory onto these new rewritable disks. All I can say is that I can't wait to get my hands on one of these :) .sig file corrupted.
  • It wouldn't be that big a deal. You miss out on all the other goodies of a DVD disc if you just take the video. No extra tracks, no behind the scenes goodies.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to have my collection of G.I. Joe episodes preserved on DVD, but this isn't that big a deal. *YET*

    LK
  • "Definitions of theft were also defined before this type of property was in existance."

    You're right that theft is one of the oldest crimes, another would be murder. Illegal copying of software isn't either, how long ago the crime was defined is irrelevant, neither crime is committed just by illegally copying software.

    Coyright isn't exactly a new phenomenon either, people have been copying materials (books, music, pictures etc.) for centuries, breaches of these copyrights are not and never have been theft.

    "In essence they are teh same."

    No, the essence of theft (well, the actus reus anyway) is taking someone else's property. This does not occur in copying software.

    "In the case of the BMW, you are paying for the cost of the materials required to build it. You are not paying for developmernt costs, costs to pay the workers, research costs, or marketing costs. When you copy software, you are basically paying for costs to 'build' the software (e.g. next to 0, since we can all copy stuff on the internet), you are not paying for development, research, or marketing. The actions have exactly teh same effect."

    NO you completely misunderstand the nature of theft. Whether you leave something of value in exchange for the BMW is irrelevant, even if you leave something worth a thousand times more than the BMW you have still stolen it, UNLESS the dealer actually agreed to sell it to you. It is his property and you have taken it. It's value has nothing to do with this.

    "Just because the property has become more abstract and isn't tangible, doesn't mean it is NOT property."

    Sure, the property is the legal right to duplicate the software, impose licence conditions, etc. IF it was possible to illegally appropriate this right from its lawful ownere then it could be stolen, but it isn't. When you copy software the owner retains his property.

    "Remeber, we left money for the BMW guy so he can build another car, so we really didn't deprive him of anything."

    WRONG. You deprived him of his property i.e. the BMW. The value of this BMW or any compensation you were willing to leave is IRRELEVANT to whether this constitutes theft.

    "Just because software is easier to duplicate doesn't mean it isn't the exact same thing."

    But duplicating the software is NOT theft. Just like if you could make a perfect duplicate of the BMW you would not be stealing it, you might be acting illegally for example by violating patents held by BMW but you would not be committing theft.

    Theft is a very straight forward easy to understand law, you should not be having this much trouble with it.

    If it helps, think of it this way, try to find one person who has EVER been found guilty of theft when the act they've done is illegally copied copyright material(software, books, whatever).

  • think price ... (Score:4)

    by OdinHuntr ( 109972 ) <ebourgNO@SPAMpo-box.mcgill.ca> on Friday November 26, 1999 @08:24AM (#1502522)
    $30 for a DVDRW disc? The film industry shouldn't get too panicky ... 6 hours will hold two movies, you can get DVDs for $15, you haven't saved any cash copying commercial DVDs and you're out the $2400 for the DVDRW box.

    The only useful illegal application would be to keep rentals longer ... and i don't think too many people would be willing to go through all the trouble ...

    DVD is secure as long as DVD-R discs stay expensive.

  • The problem with that is that (for the time being at least) blank media for these recorders actually costs MORE than just running out and buying the movie.

  • Re:think price ... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Yeah, but CD-RW disks started out at $29/pop. It's only a matter of time.

  • And even if the price gets down far enough, I don't see the DVDRW scene getting any bigger than the VCD scene. Unless high bandwidth turns the internet evil, that is.

  • This isn't a DVD-RAM. This is not a computer component. It's like a vcr. Note the (not DVD-ROM) in the article description.
  • Try this link to Pioneer DVD-Recordable. Says it can record data or video disks. Notice this is an industrial branch of Pioneer, not consumer products.

    Notice that it's probably a consumer division of Pioneer which is running the commercial showing a dual CD/CD-R device for copying audio CDs. I don't see that device on their Web sites, although their CD-R recognition is apparent in this Pioneer article about consumer CD-R uses [pioneerelectronics.com].

  • Try this link to Pioneer DVD-Recordable [pioneerusa.com]. Says it can record data or video disks. Notice this is an industrial branch of Pioneer, not consumer products.

    Notice that it's probably a consumer division of Pioneer which is running the commercial showing a dual CD/CD-R device for copying audio CDs. I don't see that device on their Web sites, although their CD-R recognition is apparent in this Pioneer article about consumer CD-R uses [pioneerelectronics.com].

  • I don't know where the hell you rent your movies, but around here it's $3.50 a night ! (unless you want to rent something that has been out for a looong time...

  • >Yup. We still go to movie theaters for some shows
    >and some reasons. Big screen, better sound, more
    >companions..

    Don't forget to buttery popcorn, massive drinks and terrible seats.

    Yeah. I like theatres. :)

  • The real question is 'how much have CD-ROM burners hurt the videogame/software market?' A lot. From the geek perspective, not as much, because we either copy our own stuff or know somebody, but Playstation bootlegs cost $10. And those are usually copies of a rented copy, hence tons of profit for even the earliest people with questionable morals who plunked down the cash for a burner.

    One of the CD's (and presumable DVD's) earliest problems is what dooms it to be readily copied. The biggest complaint about CDs was that they couldn't have the big artwork or cool liner notes like an album. They are compact by nature, and utilitarian, and therefore easily and willingly copied.

    If the DVD burn trade takes off like the PS did, and the prices of the medium go down, I expect that a lot of people will buy The Mummy or whatever disposable movies come out next summer because they liked it. Then they'll have coasters for drinks forever.

    As a result, retailers and the MPAA won't be able to rely on an act of caprice while waiting in the express lane at Target. Next Christmas, nobody will buy George of the Jungle 2. Brendan Fraser will suffer. When Brendan suffers, we all suffer.

  • Hes talking about the VCD scene on the internet, not the real world, VCDs are becoming as popular as MP3s, with major movies available via IRC before they are even on tape. (Infact, I got American Pie 3 weeks before it hit the theaters :)

    As bandwidth increases, VCDs use will increase, unless people start passing around 10gig+ .VOBs (video files on DVD)
    --
    "Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
  • The pricing on movies depends on how likely someone is to buy it, or rent it. No one pays the full price anyway. (Major chains get the video for almost nothing and pay the studio part of the profits). Jurassic Park sold for only $14, $9 with a rebate.
    --
    "Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"

  • What are the limits? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    So, when are we going to get the ability to make a bonafide duplicate of a DVD? With the extra tracks, dialogue in Swahili, and irritating commentary by directors? If they weren't so damned expensive, this might not be a bad way to get Buffy the Vampire Slayer on DVD. Wish the industry would catch on and start selling more than movies on DVD. You know you want to watch Twin Peaks with Lynch voiceover. Do not lie to us.
  • Hmm. good question... lets see... umm. ::pulls out calculator::

    All. Yep, that sounds about right. All.

  • Well, to put it into perspective, I have 1575 MP3 files in 5.90 gigs sitting on my hard drive. If a DVD disc will hold 5 gigs, that gives:
    5.90/1575 = 5/x = roughly 1335 MP3 files. (if my MP3 files are about average size)
    If I'm not mistaken, then at about an average of a megabyte per minute, then 5 gigs would be able to hold about 85 hours, 20 mintues of music. (5*1024/60)
  • An enormous hard drive you will need...
    --
  • > I have 1575 MP3 files in 5.90 gigs sitting on my hard drive. If a DVD disc will hold 5 gigs, that gives: 5.90/1575 = 5/x = roughly 1335 MP3 files. (if my MP3 files are about average size)

    Does that mean I can put every single release of
    "Now Thats What I Call Music"
    [AFAIK there's 44 at the last count]
    on 1 DVD ? ;-)

    Anyone think of any more useless uses for DVD ?
  • I don't think it's the FBI warnings that keep people from copying tapes, but the fact that you need TWO VCRs to make a copy. For the average home user, this will be a problem with DVDs as well.
  • ..noone would go this route for mass copying of DVDs
    a) blank DVDs are still around twice the price of original DVDs
    b) the recorder is fscking expensive
    c) you aren't going to go into mass production with one of these things most DVD writers are only currently 1 or 2x standard DVD playback speed

    All of these factors are probably going take at least a few years to disappear.

    AFAIK, you can access all of a DVD with DeCSS, and any of the other tools out there, but until one or more of the above factors changes, the only reason for using such tools at the moment are for legal playback of DVDs on your systems.

  • Can you use them for storing normal data? Like say for an example I have 230 Mp3s can I put them on a DVD or is it only for Video?
  • "Don't forget to buttery popcorn, massive drinks and terrible seats."

    No, no, no. Things which we don't have at home.

  • It's not the two-VCR problem which stops people. Look in today's paper at all the $100 VCRs. The average home user just isn't interested in copying tapes.
  • Imagine putting evey one of your favorite songs on a disk and going driving, so you never have to change another stupid CD. This is one more step toward that goal. (I've done some research and still can't find any DVD car decks.)
  • actually its $1.50 per disk in bulk or $2 per disk for a 10 or 5 pack. i also bought a philips cdd2600 for $100..works great on my sun ultra2.
  • Not to mention that I don't think that's the same format/hardware as what the article speaks of. DVD-RAM has been on the market for some time but it's just a glorfied PD drive and I'm not real impressed by it - have to have cartridges that you can't (reasonably) take the disc out of, it only goes up to 5.2GB, etc etc etc. Rather depressing. HiVal makes one, I think... I know LaCie does and so do some of the other hardware firms. I'm holding out.

  • But the VCD scene is ENORMOUS. In Asia, its the dominant format - and there are a damn sight more people in Asia than in the US and Europe combined.

    The reason is just price: pirate VCDs cost about US$2 per movie, in places like Kuala Lumpur and Hong Kong. Piracy is rife. And we get movies on VCD before they come out at the cinema - Star Wars 1 was out in HK just days after the US premiere, for less than the price of a cinema ticket. Shite quality, but there you go.


    Al, HK
  • ya. its called tivo. and source is available (finally!). www.tivo.com
  • yep. dvdrw's are like cdrw's.
  • The reason why DVD-Rs and DVD-RWs will remain around the $30 range is the same reason that 'music' CD-Rs are still around $10-15. Royalties. The film/music industries aren't stupid, and they have required that all blank media that could be used to illegally copy material should be charged a pre-emptive royalty. Why haven't 'data' CD-Rs and CD-RWs been subject to the same fee? I'm assuming it's because they store data, and thus like floppies and Zips hold personal data. But the probability of people recording their own music is rather slim. While this isn't ideal, I believe this is what is nonetheless happening.

    At least, this was true from what I recall a few years ago.

  • Consider that we already have this fundamental technology (albeit in a cruder form) with VCR, but the majority of film viewers are completely incapacitated by a simple red and white FBI warning pasted at the header of each tape. That flimsy exercise of authority is enough to keep the common consumer in check.

    A very parochial view. It doesn't scare a billion Chinese.

  • The right to videotape a television show, my main use for a recordable DVD, is not a moral issue at all. It is a privacy right re-affirmed by the US Supreme Court in the Universal & Disney vs. Sony case. To remind everyone, these very short-sighted studios sued Sony to keep the VCR off the market as they could only see it as an "insturment of copyright violation". The Supremes sided with Sony, that the right to do what one wished in one's own home was far more important than the rights of the copyright holder. Thus, the entire home video market appeared and provides the majority of the money flowing into Hollywood these days. Idiots.

    Copyright is a limited right granted to encourage creatitivy. It is not in involate right, unlimited or, in any way, a moral issue.

    Copying a movie is not theft any more than zeroxing a newspaper article. "Theft" is taking something away from someone and depriving them of it. If I stole the negative of a film, and they were not able to make any prints that would be theft. When I videotape a movie, how I am depriving them of it? They still have it, they can sell as many copies as they wish. Only by re-defining "theft" as "...well, we might have sold you one" is nonsense. Only that the entire force of Hollywood has been applied to selling this idea that taking an intangible, that doing something that deprives no one of anything, is somehow "theft". You've been sold.

  • We copy our own stuff? No, we write our own stuff.

    Please repeat your argument again, substituting videotape for CD or DVD. Now how does your prediction compare with what already happened?

  • Re:Laws and rampant corruption? (Score:3)

    by Hobbex ( 41473 ) on Friday November 26, 1999 @02:21PM (#1502568)

    No, you are far from the only one to note this. I, and many with me, have made parallels between the prohibition of the early part of this century (alcohol), and that of the latter (drugs), and the situation that this poses in cyberspace many times before here.

    However, it goes way beyond just DVD movies, or even mp3 songs, and into the whole concept that anyone can be granted the control, or right to control, the flow of information. Enforcing that is impossible, for while I know its a cliche, information _does_ want to be free. When a society holds onto laws that it is obviously incapable of enforcing, and tries to make up for it by escalating the punishments (driving the market deeper underground) you get this situation.

    I have no doubt that, if we do not do something, the IP war will do to our data networks what the war on drugs has done to our city cores.

    -
    We cannot reason ourselves out of our basic irrationality. All we can do is learn the art of being irrational in a reasonable way.
  • If it costs 20 dollars for a dvd and 30 for a dvd disc, do that math...
  • That's not useless -- that would kick ass! =)
    I'd buy a car DVD player that could use to burn 85 hours of music onto a single DVD and be good to go for an eternity. =)
    And, yes, even if they made 40 more releases of "Now That's What I Call Music" you would probably still be able to fit them all on one disc in MP3 format. =) Personally, I would rather have single DVD disc with a huge music library on it than a 100-disc CD changer. Some really cool uses for DVDs could be developed -- I would never disregard these as useless ideas.
  • Come on, you go to video store to dig good stuff, not the crap Hollywood release in the last two months. New movie you go toi theater to experience big screen and decent sound. (Good stereo equipment cost you 1000+ dollars, which is like 200-150 movies. Considering you are not a big movie guy, it probably takes you 4 years to watch that much movies. By the time you think your speakers are crap.

    Even if you like a art house movie like, I don't know, Limey or Holy Smoke, I don't think you can find a lot of firend who would like to ip off the artist anyway. The other studio wh will take a hit of a cheap movie duplicating machine is Disney, because kids love to watch them for over 100 times. And a lot of their parents doesn't have the concept of conpemsation and copy right. Personally I wish Disney go to hell.


    CY
  • Cheap vcr can't override the macrovision(or microvision?) You need to throw 200-300 dollars in it, if you know where to find.


    CY
  • Well Sony thinks this is a big enough problem to constitute rubber? coating the PS2 boards to prevent chipping. This of course adds $10 to the manufacturing price. I'am not sure if this is actually going to be the case, but the idea has been brought to attention more than once. Joshua Yambert
  • I even prefer full-priced evening theater over friday afternoon discount. The two of my most wonderful movie crowd expeiences this year were My Neighbor Totoro at MoMA and Being John Marcovich at a packed house at 8pm. People were laughing, in the right place. Not those "I know every joke I must laugh harder to remind you" type. People were eager to encouraging artists' subtle and intelligent humors. You just felt so relex and concentrated.

    In contrary, I had a terrible time watching There's something about Mary with, er, 3 people. I knew I would have preciated Mary more if I watch it with people, Mary is exactly the kind of movie that really needs a good crowd. Although Kingpin is better :)
  • Call me paranoid, but...

    The price listed for the unit is 250,000 JPY. Netscape indicates that the dollar equivilant is $2,399. Well, it's actually $2,460 now. Yes, I realize that the Yen has only recently strengthened; HOWEVER, why does Netscape happen to do the conversion at the moment it was $2,399?

    Everybody knows companies realize that 2,399 seems a lot cheaper to the average American than 2,400. It would seem to me that Netscape went a little out of their way to do what would be in the best interests of Pioneer. They also don't mention how the music industry might feel about this... This article seems to be nothing more than an advertisement or a press release from Pioneer.

    So, I conclude: Anything Netscape "reports" should be taken with a grain of salt. Most journalism should... Do you have any idea who owns NBC?

    God bless Slashdot! Even the moderators get moderated.






  • The real question is 'how much have CD-ROM burners hurt the videogame/software market?' A lot.

    Really? I could, of course, be entirely out to lunch but I really don't see bootleggers affecting the industry as a whole. Within their realm, sure--none of them or their friends actually buy software. How much of the market do they comprise? More importantly, how much of the market that would purchase this software if they couldn't pirate it do they comprise? In other words, what percentage of potential sales are lost, due to piracy?

    One of the CD's (and presumable DVD's) earliest problems is what dooms it to be readily copied. The biggest complaint about CDs was that they couldn't have the big artwork or cool liner notes like an album.

    Actually, that's a good point. You see the marketing machines trying to combat that aspect, though. "Be the first on your block to own the super-limited collector's edition of George of the Jungle 2!" Hey, it works more often than not. Even when they can get burns or borrow a friends' VCR, most people buy their movies and software.

    Next Christmas, nobody will buy George of the Jungle 2.

    Oh no, a tragedy in the making!
    :-)

  • As to your 2004 home: You could use your Playstation 2 to play the movies (It plays DVD-disks) and then record them on the DVD-recorder.... Couldn't you?

    hmmm, the possibilities, I'd never get out of my house again...:

    mind wander

    I've got a cable modem, so my friends can see me online, I'd do all my shopping online too... And now I get almost theaterelike quality movies (With Swahili overdubs if I want it to) on my widescreen HDTV..... hmmm...

    /mind wander

  • It sounds to me that the best use, and probably the most common use for this technology would be to let multimedia and DVD authors to test out their latest creation relatively cheap. Last time I checked, commercial DVD writers were 20-50x more expensive than this unit. For corporations or companies that want to enter the DVD arena, either by sending out DVDs to customers to inform them of new products (AOL CDs?) or to distribute software this way (Microsoft is going to start doing this), this seems like an extremely cheap way to do this without having to purchase a full commercial DVD writer. And once you have the master (gone gold) then you can send it out to a DVD publisher and get your discs pressed for much cheaper than $30/disc.

  • MPAA could still triumph (Score:5)

    by konstant ( 63560 ) on Friday November 26, 1999 @08:35AM (#1502588)
    If anyone is panicked in the film industry, it is only the shock of entrenched power forced on the move by new technology. If the MPAA plays its cards correctly, the film industry could easily emerge with a dominance in this new field and higher revenues than ever before.

    Consider that we already have this fundamental technology (albeit in a cruder form) with VCR, but the majority of film viewers are completely incapacitated by a simple red and white FBI warning pasted at the header of each tape. That flimsy exercise of authority is enough to keep the common consumer in check.

    In my observation, the deciding factor in "consumer revolutions" is not the desire for independence, but the allure of convenience. There are many people, yes, who are thrilled by the notion of endlessly copied, personally owned videos. But I suspect that sector is small when viewed relative to the mass of moviegoers, who are happy parting with small sums of movie for the simple convenience of being provided the film as a service rather than as a commodity. And on those rare occasions they desire it as a commodity, $20 and a five minute drive don't seem to great a cost to spare.

    If the average buyer of movies has ample and convenient supply of pre-recorded DVDs from their local rental store, on a par with the availability of VCR tapes today, why would they desire to copy their own, and at a large initial expense at that, since I can't imagine these recording machines will be cheap.

    The internet does have the potential to alter this status quo, through pirated rebroadcasts, but only in a distant future (let us say one decade) in which the typical internet-enabled household can boast broadband speeds.

    This gives the film industry ten years to get their shit together and organize an official pay-per-view internet broadcasting plan. The convenience of visiting a well-known site will make the arcane knowledge of pirate sites seem like sweaty and unnecessary labor. The quick little FBI blurbs will be enough to remind the placid victims that viewing pirated versions is Wrong.

    The film industry (and t he recording industry for that matter) provide their media as services, although they present them as commodities. So long as that remains the more convenient schema, I can't see a consumer insurgency as a realistic future.

    -konstant
  • Most of the products that have angered the RIAA or film industry (Rio, Napster, DeCSS) have come from relatively small players. It will be interesting to see if the film industry has the guts to take on a major player in the industry like Pioneer.

    I suspect that a lot of motivation behind lawsuits against similar products has been the hope of litigating the company or group out of existence. Who cares about the outcome if the legal bills force a shutdown?

    This is different. Pioneer isn't going to fold under a few legal fees. What else might the film industry try? No more DVD decryption keys for Pioneer?

    Greg

  • Are you talking about a rewritable DVD-ROM? Because this story is about a recordable DVD unit, for a home theater system.

  • Film industry panic? HAH! (Score:3)

    by swordgeek ( 112599 ) on Friday November 26, 1999 @08:40AM (#1502591) Journal
    I've said it before and I'll say it again.

    How much have recordable videotapes hurt the home video industry? None! How much have VCRs hurt the movie industry? None! How much have CD-Rs hurt the music industry? None again!

    Recordable DVDs are the same way. In their typical short-sighted way, the industry will harp on about "The death of the home-DVD market" for a year, and then proceed to be shocked when their profits actually go up the same as always. I'm not sure what's worse--that they're constantly making more money from worse entertainment, that they're behaving like undisciplined bullies (to both the consumers and especially to the indies!), or that they're so clueless as to be surprised every time their industry fails to collapse because the consumer got something good.

    The parallel with yesterday's story about the mall banning web-site promotion is left as an exercise for the reader.


  • From the Pioneer [pioneerusa.com] site.


  • The internet does have the potential to alter this status quo, through pirated rebroadcasts, but only in a distant future (let us say one decade) in which the typical internet-enabled household can boast broadband speeds
    It could be sooner than that. Think reverse-proxies (aka reflectors). Streaming media is the current "hot" thing, not the next one.
  • It's sort of like when the movie theaters thought that TV would destroy them... I remember hearing that they'd use gimmicks to keep people coming back. One I heard about was that at the orginial playing of "House on Haunted Hill" (the old one, not the new [BTW really cool IMHO] one) they'd swing a plastic skeleton above the crowd. Ahh, how easily we were once entertained... ;)

    If you think you know what the hell is going on you're probably full of shit.
  • I recall that DVD technologies suffered delays from battles over standards, though I can't remember if this only applied to dvdrom recordables. Do Pioneer's recording method and disks fall under a standard? Have agreements been made on the issue, or was this never a problem concerning video dvds?
  • $80 is just gouging.

    You're not supposed to buy it. It's like VHS now. They come out with most movies in a rental window. The tape costs $80, but the only people who buy it are places like Blockbuster (actually, not even them; they have special deals, but you get the point).

    Then, in most cases, they come out with the video for $19 a few months later, and people buy them. But as things are now, the Blockbusters of the world get their DVDs for $19 and rent them out, depriving the studios of the money they previously got by selling "rental copies" for $80.

    So not great, but it doesn't mean that they'll ALWAYS be at $80.
  • Doesn't anyone here recall what the recording industry was able to do to DAT technology? The film industry has been paranoid of recording technologies for a long time, and will do the same to DVD. VHS poses little threat, as the quality is so poor. DVD, on the other hand, has the potential (if the encoding is good) to provide a much cleaner signal for both sound and picture.

    I anticipate that the film industry will crank up the lobbyists, and that our politicians, ever vigilant for the highest bidder, will do something to damage the value of this technology, as they did with DAT.

    I can appreciate that the film industry has IP rights to protect, but when the protection of such rights is used to justify legislating against someone else's IP rights (as was effectively the case with DAT and the notch filter), then justice is not a component of the action, and we should all scream long and loud to our various pols in the hope that sanity may prevail this time.

    History, however, offers little hope.
  • not only that but blank VCR tapes used to cost $30 a piece, of course that was when beta was still around.
  • I don't know what you mean by "long time", but I am of course not talking about the "hot new releases". Those should always be watched in a cinema. You just can't beat the sound and visuals that they can do with professional equipment - and few of us earn enough to have their own 15 meter screens in the basement.
  • Blank CD-R's (not CD-RW's) were $10 each in 1997 - you don't have to look back as far as 1991. Then you could find them for $5 if you were lucky. Then there was the period of rebates, where you got back most of the purchase price - almost every manufacturer offered them. Now they are just $1-$1.50 a disc. The RIAA is the one that should be scared - 12-15 albums worth of mp3's fit on a $1 disc.
  • Wrong. Macrovision needs _new_ VCRs for its protection to work - an old VCR doesn't give a d*mn about Macrovisions brightness trickery and will give you a good copy without the need for a "Macrovision buster"

  • Okay, so all your friends have modded PSX consoles. I'm sure this is an accurate cross-section of the home gaming market. It is especially ludicrous to claim that even a substantial number of people mod their PSXs in light of the simple fact that companies are still making plenty of money off the sales of legit copies of games. Please don't use the fact that all your friends have PSX mods as proof that everyone does and that software sales really are suffering because of this.

    - A.P. (How did abortion get dragged into this?)
    --


    "One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad

  • The reason the MPAA shouldn't be worried yet is because the current line of devices seem roughly analogous to tape decks. What they should really be worried about is when recordable DVDs, larger hard drives, and more bandwidth make computerized swapping of DVDs possible, which would be analogous to the current MP3 situation.

    __
    Harvey
    • Properly encoded VCDs are better quality than VHS - and don't suffer from degradation
    • Several VCD players hold 2 discs at the same time
    • Most (All?) Pioneer DVD players play CDRs, and all old dual-laser Sonys. Most cheap DVDs (Raite, Hoyo etc) also play CDRs - big market for that
    • Anyone with a bit of bandwidth can download VCDs - and if you're outside the US you can get screeners (the promotion VHS tapes sent out by the movie companies themselves) in VCD format before the movie hits the cinema. Most of them are also in dolby surround - such a VCD played on a good setup means you had rental-quality movies before they hit the cinema ...

    The movie industry should either be very afraid of the posibility to make your own DVDs at home, or they should be smart and do what they did with the new Arnold movie ... premiered in a lot of countries within days.

    It's time to world-premiere all big releases.

  • Link to the Japanese Site-- Significant Info (Score:3)

    by Ether ( 4235 ) on Friday November 26, 1999 @07:22PM (#1502609)
    1. A working, accurate link:
    http://www.pioneer.co.jp/press/release63.html
    (it's in english)

    2. Quote #1:

    "Introduction of Copy Protection Technology
    The DVR-1000 complies with all available copy protection technologies {e.g. response to CGMS (Copy Generation Management System) signal and detection of Macrovision signal}, to protect copyrighted visual content from unauthorized copying which contradicts the intention of copyright owners. Furthermore, the DVR-1000 implements secure media ID detection functions, which form a key element in disabling playback of discs containing unauthorized copies. DVD-RW blank discs also contain the technology to prevent successful copying of discs protected by CSS*"

    3. Quote #2.
    Recording Time
    Standard mode(SP) 120 minutes
    Manual mode (MN) 60 ` 360 minutes (32 steps)

    4. Quote #3.
    " At the same time, Pioneer will ask the member companies of the DVD Forum to adopt Pioneer's technology as the de facto standard for DVD recorders."
    So it isn't a standard, and may not be a standard ever.

    5. Quote #4.
    "DVD-RW adopts the Video Recording Format method for recording, a specification authorized by the DVD Forum. This format allows high-quality real-time signal recording using MPEG compression technology and also provides a variety of editing functions.
    Furthermore, Pioneer, as well as other major hardware manufacturers, will introduce Video Recording Format-ready DVD-Video players, and it will be possible to replay DVD-RW recorded discs on those players too.
    "
    So you won't be able to play the disc on many of the current players. But it does do realtime encoding.


    Nothing particularly scary to any media company. Of course, my illusions of corporate competition among the 'big' corporations was shattered when I opened up my 101 disc Pioneer changer and found-- Sony components.

  • The real issue is the economic persecution of Brendan Fraser! Not that I need to reply to it, but this country is not governed by the Ten Commandments. They are a personal moral guide. Abortion is legal in this country. If you personally choose not to kill or steal, congrats... That's me in the corner, playing Tekken 3. Jin Kazuya Wins! And if thou could have killed Nina, thou would have.

    As for the actual effect of software piracy, I freely admit two things. I am not a statistician, and I also work at a place with a lot of soldering irons lying around. But Sony has taken various steps to at least hinder people, including the 'Dino Crisis' kill, which won't even let you play a legit copy of the game if you have been chipped. Gran Turismo 2 is said to have the same 'feature.'

    Furthermore, the PS2 is supposed to be a DVD player as well, which might explain why they want to encase the entire thing in a block of titanium. Imagine if there was an easy fix, and every PS2 became a spigot of bootlegged fun running right into people's heads. If you don't think bootlegging is a problem, feel free to turn to page 43 of the User's Manual and enter the third word in the second paragraph.

  • Actually, the Philips CD recorder reads something on the disk to make sure it is a real music CDR. The "data" CDRs don't work (unless you know the hack).

  • Wasn't Pioneer one of the original group of companies involved in creating the DVD standard in the first place?

    At any rate, I'm hoping as well that Pioneer would adhere to some sort of standard for its recorder.
  • They have had such a device for some time now,
    only the price was around $5k last I checked a
    few months ago.

    And that didn't include the computer hardware
    and software required to master it before putting
    it to disk.
  • Oh the technology and similar units have been around for a long time, how do you think they're stamping the ones you rent and buy? The idea here is that this is targetted at the consumer, hence the lower price than industrial units.
  • ummmm....would you please comment on what in the hell you're talking about it makes my head hurt trying to figure it out

  • But blank CDRs were $20.00/ea in 1991! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    And these were the 63 minute variety too. We used 'em in the company's $9000.00 SCSI 1x Philips CDD521 burner which was the size of a large VCR.

    The bottom line? DVD-R Media will get cheaper. CDR media did. Zip media did. Remember not so long ago when CDRW media was $25-30 per disk. Now it's fallen below $3.00/disc. Why should I not expect the same thing to happen with DVD-Rs?

  • Unless you're some kind of an Überhacker, you don't need a DVD-RW to hold six hours of programming. Clueless journalists!
    --
  • Correct me if I'm wrong, but don;t you have to master a DVD disc on a computer before you can write it to a DVD? -- unlike with CDR, where you can do this on the fly (they even have that *shudder* directcd prog). It might take 20 hours to master a 2 hour DVD, depending on how fast your computer can compress MPEG2.

  • According to the specs [panasonic.com], this DVD-RAM drive doesn't even have a digital out. That sucks, even my CDROM drive has this useful feature.
  • No, but all the 100-dollar VCRs are new VCRs. The Microvision has been here so long that if you bought a VCR that didn't have microvision, it must be much more expensive than 100. You are right that you only need one old vcr, but there is only one such old vcr amount the people I know. I have it, the button simple would work, you need a universal remote to control the basic functions.

    CY
  • Actually that cartridge idea is an excellent one indeed. It's not just that consumers can't handle VHS tapes well, have you seen a rental DVD disc lately? I've rented several, and they all look like someone cleaned them with a brillo pad or something.
  • umm, at the last computer show I went to (KGP Productions, Edison, NJ) there was a booth selling cards that plug into the playstation's parallel (serial?) port that act as mod chips and also supply you with cheats.. so the rubber coating won't help.
  • Goodie, I can't wait to get one -- but will it let me Zonecode my recordings so that I can control my roll-out ;-)
  • Well, but look at this: When I was in the States, it cost me $1 to rent a movie for one night. Most movies, you won't want to watch more than once or twice anyway. So why copy them?

  • Laws and rampant corruption? (Score:4)

    by _outcat_ ( 111636 ) on Friday November 26, 1999 @09:20AM (#1502639) Homepage Journal
    Is it just me, or does anyone see any parallels to the Prohibition in the DeCSS situation?

    I know it's a bit of a stretch, but bear with me here in the general idea...it's really one of the only examples I can think of.

    Now, I'm pretty sketchy on this, but IIRC, liquor was made illegal during the Prohibition. Did it end all drinking? No...instead you had lots of people forming undergrounds, gangs, etc, and crime just escalated because of it. When the bans were lifted, did we become a nation of drunks? No. Sure, there was still drunk driving, etc, but the pros outweighed the cons.

    By making all form of copying, decrypting, etc, DVDs illegal, what will we have? Likely a lot of people breaking those laws just because they're pointless. Take the DeCSS situation--the guy took the source down because of all the flak he was getting, but the tarballs and .zip's spread like wildfire anyway. (I mean, who here on /. DOESN'T have one?) And when the price goes down on the Pioneer device and the media, you can bet the movie industry will probably be in somewhat a snit.

    Look at VHS. It's easy to record, sometimes insanely easy to copy. Is the movie industry suffering because of them? No. Sure, the FBI flashes a dire warning at the beginning of each movie, but how many of us here don't have a video copied somehow? (Uh, I don't. Not me. No.)

    I guess my point is, when people are free to use media as they wish, and the big industries are left to grit their teeth a bit, things work better.

    Just my $.02.
  • How big of a step is it from this technology to recording movies directly onto a hard drive? Or is this the same thing?

    I'd love to have a VCR-like device conected to my TV as well as my computer. I could record, erase, rename, copy movies just like any other file presently on my computer. With a continuous connection to the internet, I could program the "VCR" from work or where ever I happen to be (especially with a PDA with internet access).

    Could someone comment on this?

  • I think that's 'programming' as in TV, Movies, whatever. Not 'programming' as in code....

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