Keyboards - Dvorak or Qwerty? 378
A voice from the mass of Slashdot Anonymous Cowards asks: "A friend of mine has been using a dovark keyboard for about 3 months. He says that his that it has increased his speed almost double. From what I understand the qwerty keyboard was designed to slow people down when they used type writters. Now, since they are on computers, why is the world (US) not using them ? Do you think it is worth using it. I work as a computer tech. if I go to fix some guys computer, is he going to look at me strange becuase I can't type on a qwerty keyboard. I wanted to see everyones opinion on this one. " Um. Are you going to look at me funny because I can't type on a Dvorak keyboard? Do they even make Dvorak keyboards for computers? If so, where can I find such a beast?
depends on what you mean by touch type... (Score:1)
Of course there are Dvorak keyboards. (Score:1)
Re:Opinion, and where to get them (Score:1)
Re:show some mercy, this horse is already dead (Score:1)
Re:DVORAK efficiency is a myth (Score:1)
Re:First Post :) (Score:1)
The first thing I noticed was that I was slow. That is something that would change with time though.
The second thing I noticed was that most of the words I was typing fell naturally to the 'home' position. In case you haven't noticed, most typing on a Qwerty keyboard requires real gymnastics of the fingers. Almost every word requires a stretch in one direction or another. Most of the mis-types I make as a use-taught (rather than tutor-taught) touch-typist are due to tired hands not stretching far enough.
I'm only 22, but already I get sore hands after a day of coding and report writing. The sooner I can get some speed up on this more-relaxed keyboard layout the better.
Duncan.
cecil adams / straight dope answer (Score:1)
Fighting Ignorance since 1973!
Re:QWERTY = outdated/English changes (Score:1)
Those words that are especially hard in it have been dropped, those that are easier have become more fasioinable.
Live languages change all the time, so this isn't really that surprising.
Ketyboard (Score:2)
Words from a native Dvorak typist (Score:2)
I do type significantly faster in Dvorak now, although I have probably used Qwerty keyboards as much as Dvorak. For me the issue wasn't speed, accuracy, or time to learn - I use Dvorak because it is less awkward. This factor is very hard to quantify, but nonetheless quite significant!
Some people have Qwerty too deeply ingrained to switch comfortably. If you are one of them, don't! The speed isn't really that important (unless you're a really fast thinker also). What's more important is what allows you to interface more naturally with your computer. When I type in Dvorak it feels like my fingers are dancing over the home row. Qwerty feels like playing twister!
Bottom line: give Dvorak a try for a month or two, and see what feels better after that period.
Nobody should care either way (except your poor aching wrists, hehe).
Another issue raised is that it is hard to acquire a Dvorak keyboard. I actually think it's a bad idea to have one. If you are relearning to type (even if you look at the keys now), it isn't hard to learn w/o seeing the keys. I found Mavis Beacon does an excellent job of teaching Dvorak - and it even runs under Wine (!). Another thing you can do is simply tape letters over your keyboard or buy a Dvoark overlay. Once again, I'd recommend against this - but you shouldn't need it long term. Let your fingers memorize the key positions, not your eyes. Think of it as a chance to start over w/ better typing technique
-Seth
Dvorak Keyboards (Score:4)
If you would like to buy a hardwired keyboard check out Hard-Wired Keyboards [ccsi.com].
Recently I got a Kinesis [kinesis-ergo.com] ergonomic keyboard that it hot swappable between qwerty and dvorak. It's also an ergo keyboard and the best peripheral for my computer I've ever bought. I highly recommend their contoured keyboards.
Something that you may want to keep in mind is that a lot of unix command line commands are optimized for qwerty, like ls, as well as emacs and vi.
one handed only (Score:1)
Yes, but... (Score:2)
Yes, there are keyboards with a "native" dvorak layout. There are also (or you can make) transparent stickers to put on the keys so you can see both the dvorak and qwerty meanings of the keys.
You can also often manually remove the keys from the keyboard and rearrange them. However, this is often not sensible, because the keys in modern keyboards have a contour that makes them only really fit their original place.
In any case, all of these are really not necessary, and could even be considered harmful. Dvorak, unlike qwerty, is designed for touch-typing. You aren't even supposed to look at the keyboard when typing. So when you don't see the letters anywhere, you are forced to learn them by heart. Yes, it's hell for a month or so, but then you get used to it pretty quickly.
As for the relative merits of dvorak, I recommend it heartily. Dvorak may not be the "perfect" keyboard layout, but at least it has a sensible idea behind it. The only merit of qwerty nowadays is that everyone knows it. This "merit" finds a convenient analogue from the software world in M$ products.
As for myself, I've been using dvorak for about two years now. It took me a couple of months to learn it acceptably fluently, and currently I get a bit over 70 wps. Then again, I didn't know qwerty touch-typing when I started, so I had less to unlearn. YMMV.
Hope this helps.
Re:Fast Typing (200+ wpm - QWERTY-style) (Score:1)
Get to the keyboard control panel, select the "Language" tab, and change the layout from 'United States' (or whatever it is) to 'United States-Dvorak' The keymap changes immediately..
Of course, it might be nice for someone to make a single-click systray application..
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Re:Hassle with software that uses keyboard pattern (Score:1)
Programs like that should not map directly to the assumed keyboard layout.. In the very least, there should be an easy way to change the settings..
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Fast Typing (200+ wpm - QWERTY-style) (Score:1)
A neat idea for DVORAK users, would be to create a small program that changes the registry value on the Windows 9x machines automatically. Just run the program, and go at it. This makes switching from one computer to the next easier. Also, maybe a thin, plastic cover that you could fit over standard win9x keyboards; however, this would be impossible because many keyboards come in wierd shapes. The latter idea isn't really needed because most DVORAK users would know where the keys are located and wouldn't have to look down.
Anyways, just thought ya'll would like to know that DVORAK isn't always the fastest...;) I doubt DVORAK would let her type 300 wpm...:) MmMmM...efficiency.
Programming with Dvorak (Score:3)
However, after attempting to write code with a dvorak keyboard, I switched right back over. While the placement of such keys as "{};&>.[]+=-*%!" is not exactly optimal on a qwerty keyboard, they are much easier to hit on qwerty than dvorak.
Unix commands which aren't necessarily english also seem to be easier to type on qwerty for some reason ls, ps, pwd, chgrp, ftp, etc...
Hopefully keyboards will be outdated by some decent voice recognition software or human neural interface before my hands cramp up and die from all the typing I do.
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Re:Test drive a Dvorak keyboard (Score:2)
If modern computer were like that, it'd be nice. That way, I could learn Dvorak and completely forget QWERTY, and if I wanted to use a public terminal or a friend's computer, I'd just press the button to switch, and toggle back when I was done. Unfortunately, modern computers aren't as good as my Apple =)
Hassle with software that uses keyboard patterns. (Score:1)
The other problem is that those xmodmap solutions don't do you a bit of good on the console screen.
another kinesis endorsement (Score:1)
I don't have any hand injuries but I have noticed the difference.
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com
check out the contour
Re:Not so (Score:2)
Once they convert us over to Dvorak, then there's nothing to stop them from changing over to Metric, free software, the French language, and Godless communism!
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
What about keyboard commands? (Score:1)
An alternate keyboard layout might be manageable for people who only type text, but more difficult for users who use keyboard driven programs. Part of the problem is that when you type commands in a program like vi, you don't think of the letter that you are typing. When I want the cursor to go up, I just do it, I don't think ``okay, going up means letter K''. The motivation to move the cursor automatically translates to the right key. I suspect that even if I learned to type words instinctively on a Dvorak keyboard, I would still be tripped up when it came to editor commands.
Obvious fallacy. (Score:1)
Yes, it is true that the hammers ultimately hit at the same place. However, a jam occurs before the hammers actually strike the paper. Those hammers that are close together are more likely to jam because of the acute angle between their paths. There is simply more opportunity for them to hit each other. Hammers that are far apart have a much smaller opportunity for jamming, since their paths intersect much more obliquely. Get it? When I was a child I would play with these typewriters, trying to see under circumstances I could produce a jam. I distinctly remember that it was far easier to produce a jam by simultaneously, or nearly simultaneously, striking keys whose hammers are close together than to produce a jam using keys that are far apart. The timing had to be much tighter. You could type an alternating sequence of letters far apart very quickly without jamming, but not so for letters close together. So distribution obviously matters.
Slow down (Score:2)
The problems on old typewriters occur when you strike two keys that are in close proximity at about the same time; that's when the type heads get all stuck together. So it's not entirely about speed but about how the strokes are physically distributed. It's not hard to see that a design which distributes the load to prevent jamming could also have a beneficial effect on typing efficiency.
First poster, DOH! (Score:2)
How To Fix (Score:1)
xmodmap
Don't know if it helps, you probably got it fixed by now.
When you don't know where any of the keys are, cut and paste is your friend ;-)
Retraining & Culture. (Score:1)
Just because a "better" way is developed isn't allways enough if the "old" way works passibly well.
Cost of change outweighs ease of use (Score:3)
In The Design/Psychology of Everyday Things Don Norman does a comparison of various keyboard types including qwerty, Dvorak and Chorded keyboards. Most, if not all of the alternatives rate higher than qwerty in terms of typing speed and training.
Norman also points out that no matter how good a new kind of keyboard is, it will never replace the standard qwerty style. It would simply cost too much money. Retraining users, replacing hardware, rewriting software (in some cases), rewriting documentation etc. It all adds up. There are similar reasons why the metric systems hasn't been adopted world wide.
Also, how much more efficient does a keyboard have to be to justify a change in keys? IMHO, the qwerty keyboard is good enough. I look forward to the day when I don't have to tap away on this anymore. Bring on what-you-see-is-what-you-think!- --------------------------------------
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Re:Build your own (Score:1)
Similarly, i have toggled to and from environments where i had to use either the IBM or Mac layouts for Arabic. They're about forty percent different for letters and frequent diacritics. The confusion between the two and constant quick thinking about where such and such a key is on the system i was using meant that i never really got fast typing in Arabic. I tell you this as someone who actually was in a typing competition in high school!
I imagine that this is much less of a problem when the layouts are *very* different, as might be the case with QWERTY and DVORAK.
Not for shells! (Score:1)
Therefore I would suspect that using a Dvorak keyboard to type at a shell prompt might not buy you much
(This isn't to say that I don't believe in the Dvorak keyboard... I only tried it once, when I knew the Qwerty layout and was moderately fast but not a speed daemon-- by remapping my Commodore 64 keyboard of all things!-- and within a few few hours I had my Dvorak speed up to my Qwerty speed or better. But at the present time I switch between systems too often to want to try Dvorak again).
whatever. (Score:1)
Anecdotal (Score:2)
Let me add to the pile of anecdotal evidence. A year ago, I came down with carpal tunnel syndrom. Not wanting to become unemployed, I took a number of drastic actions, including learning to type dvorak and getting Dvorak keyboards for all my computer (I'm sorry, but keycaps suck, especially since Windoze NT doesn't activate your keymap until you are logged in).
My Carpal got better.
Two months ago, I took the leap, became radically overpayed and inredibly worthless, and started consulting. My main client does not really allow for me to use an alternate keyboard without a lot of stress.
My carpal is back.
I know, I know, that's not conclusive. But I will tell you that typing Dvorak
Give it a try -- if you don't like, all ou've lost is an xmodmap command! If you do like it, you've saved your wrists.
Std gauge railroads = same width as Roman chariots (Score:1)
Re:Retraining & Culture. (Score:1)
However, one of the design issues which there is not way around, is that you can only steer it with your toes. Someday a solution to this might be found, but right now it's sitting idle in my front yard on top of the edible cinderblocks.
More comfortable. (Score:1)
Once And Again (Score:1)
T-Y-P-E-W-R-I-T-E-R (Score:1)
Re:I use dvorak but some situations qwerty is bett (Score:1)
Re:[Useless Fact] Longest word typed with one hand (Score:1)
In Defense of QWERTY (Score:2)
The QWERTY layout was designed to put letters that are often adjacent in English words under opposite hands (or something remarkably like that; I am not a typewriter historian). This was necessary to prevent the jamming that happens when you type two adjacent characters on a manual typewriter: the little arms try to go on near-congruent paths to the same point, failing miserably, causing you to get typewriter ink on your nice cuffs when you unstick them. This had the effect of allowing much faster typing without jamming, and much faster typing period because so many common words and syllables were now typed with alternating hands.
Mr Dvorak's own studies found his layout to be a great improvement over QWERTY. I don't buy it, myself - it seems to me that the QWERTY layout is near optimal for English, people are used to it, it's not a bad deal. I'm sticking with it.
Contured Dvorak keyboard (Score:1)
I use a Contured Kinesis [kinesis-ergo.com] keyboard set to use the Dvorak layout. I still use QWERTY on my flat keyboards. That has allowed me to switch easily between the two. The keystrokes are different on the Kinesis, so I just intuitively know that I should use the Dvorak layout. Sure, it took me a couple months to get up to speed on it and I wouldn't say that I'm any faster on it than I was on QWERTY, but it just seems more logical. It also helps that the Kinesis has both the QWERTY and Dvorak legends on the keys. . .
Another poster commented that programming on it is a pain. That was my first thought too, but after a couple months I got used to it. The period and quotes are in a much more logical place and I think I use those more often than {} anyway.
Finally, I think most unix commands got their esoteric names based purely on the QWERTY keyboard (like ls which is two home row strokes on opposet hands, but not that easy on the Dvorak). Good keyboards let you remap anyway, and there are always aliases.
-"Zow"
Re:QWERTY = outdated (Score:1)
Re:First Post :) (Score:3)
And it is all personal preference. I have seen reports that say dvorak is no faster, if not slower, than qwerty. Then again, I have also seen reports that say NT is more stable than Linux.
Those who seem to type way faster using dvorak keyboards are probably like that because they were fast on qwerty already, but then read about this amazing dvorak thing and worked really hard at getting good at that. It has more to do with personal drive than the keyboard layout in this situation.
Not to mention the fact that you have to take into consideration which keys that you press most often (I am talking about vocabulary and such).
If you want to type fast, go to a swap meet and find the clickiest, most responsive keyboard you can find.
And I would like to take this chance to say that Slashdot has seen this discussion about 150 times already. Too bad slashdot is not accumulative knowledge wise. I bet you could find this whole discussion already done with in the archives if you simply typed 'dvorak keyboard' into the little search field. Save Ask Slashdot for real, unanswered questions.
Not so (Score:2)
Re:Bull Poop (Score:1)
If you take away all the effort needed to press the keys, I think you can easily double the speed.
<brag> Oh... and I can touch-type at about 100-120WPM. </brag>
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I use dvorak but some situations qwerty is better (Score:1)
--sam
Amen (Score:1)
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Forget QWERTY vs. Dvorak (Score:1)
My personal favorite (except for the cost, of course) is the DataHand [datahand.com] which significantly decreases finger travel distance as well as pressure you need to apply. (those things will help you type faster.) It also lets you keep your wrists straight, which will help to reduce injury.
The DataHand is primarily designed to reduce injury, but once you learn it well, you'll be able to type faster; mostly due to shorter finger travel distance.
It's designed with an almost QWERTY layout, but you can always set it up as Dvorak and stick little notes onto the template (I think they'll even sell it to you with a Dvorak template.) The built in "mouse" is okay for cut-n-paste, but I'd suggest using it in addition to another pointing device (I prefer trackballs -- less arm movement required, even if they do suck for quake) (you can do this with GPM, under Linux) for when you're doing more mouse-intensive activities. (Like netscape)
If you're a computer programmer (like myself) and something like that could lengthen your career by one month, the cost is worth it. It's more likely to increase a career by, at least, several years.
Re:In Defense of QWERTY (Score:2)
The speed up for Dvorak over QWERTY isn't double, however, it's a small-ish percentage. It really isn't enough for an entire industry to switch (with all the costs of that). And, of course, momentum is hard to overcome. Nobody wants to build Dvorak keyboards if everybody knows QWERTY, and nobody wants to learn Dvorak if QWERTY keyboards are all that's available.
(The small-ish percentage increase in efficiency might be worth it if you get paid by the typed word or if you're developing RSI problems.)
Re:I don't personally own one.. (Score:1)
Try out imwheel. http://solaris1.mysolution.com/~jcatk i/imwheel/ [mysolution.com]
Re:Cost of change outweighs ease of use (Score:1)
I prefer QWERTY because less exact repetition (Score:1)
With Dvorak, which I have tried briefly, I barely seems to move my hands sometimes.
Now with RSI, isn't it supposed to be worse if you don't vary what you're doing as much? With QWERTY I find that movement is constant.
Happy Hacking Keyboard (Score:1)
Please send them a mail [mailto] and tell them what we want, or we will never be able to buy one.
Funny dvorak story (Score:1)
A friend of mine is a convert and he runs an NT network (and hates it). The domain controller/fileserver with 20+ gigs of NTFS raid 0 disk in it had both qwerty and dvorak keyboard layouts set up on it. His clueless boss needed to log in after the screen was locked so he pressed ctrl-alt-delete, typed in the domain administrators password. Wrong password. Mmmm. Try again. Nope still wrong password. Try really carefully. Wrong password. Machines obviously fallen over. Switch off, switch back on again.... Wait nearly an hour and a half for chkdsk to finish and still have no clue as to what went wrong.
BTW I also use dvorak after having learned to touch type qwerty at high school. Using dvorak in the hunt and peck style (even if it is really fast) is a total waste of time, you may as well be using qwerty. As previous posters have said, dvorak just feels better and IMHO seems to put less strain on wrists and hands.
Re:Speaking of limerics (somewhat offtopic...) (Score:1)
Still get comments on how fast my QWERTY is (Score:1)
Essentially I have an acer ergo keyboard that I set as DVORAK (don't worry about the keys! How often do you look at your keys in qwerty? Also when learning to type don't you remeber continually getting scolded for looking at the keys? Just attach a dvorak diagram to the monitor while your learning, take it off after a couple weeks!)
My qwerty on this keyboard is slower than a cheetah; who lost it's legs. It's slightly anoying when I boot back to dos, but at that point I just look at the keys. Other than that I'm always in DVORAK. When I go to someone else's standard keyboard (or even an ms-ergo keyboard) QWERTY still comes totally naturally.
Re:Of course there are Dvorak keyboards. (Score:1)
Re:Cost of change outweighs ease of use (Score:1)
This is incorrect. Most countries have always had the metric system in place, hence there was no reason to convert. Only the British colonies adopted the non-metric system, which makes your statement erroneous.
Ironically, this is the argument I have about Linux. The OS maybe free, but I will cost way too much to switch over.
--Ivan, weenie NT4 user, Jon Katz hater: bite me!
My personal results from trying to switch (Score:1)
Who the hell needs to type much faster unless they're data entry people or write more email than they should? I dont know anyone who writes verbose long unix pipes faster than they can type: mebbe they should use shorter pipes. And for coders, I really doubt that you can code at a constant 110wpm! If you can, we have a job for you.)
Dvorak rates for my conversion effort:
end of 1st day: 7 wpm (what a hellish day)
end 1st week: 22wpm
end 2nd week: 31wpm
end 3rd week: 38wpm
end 4th week: 43wpm
end 5th week: 46wpm
end 6th week: 48wpm
end 7th week: 49wpm
end 8th week: 50wpm
end 9th week: 50wpm
end 10th week: 51wpm
I couldnt handle it anymore, and kept on naturally 'forgetting' to put my machine into dvorak mode (i was lazy and never setup my
Eventually I gave up because I was only at half my rate. Mebbe I just cant learn anything new cuz I've been typing qwerty for the last 19 years on computers and Im an old dog.
Im happy with qwerty I guess, at 100-110wpm, for the most part. I wish there was something that would net me something more like 300-500wpm, but I think we'd have to move away from fingers. Mebbe not: I think keyboard chords would be better, but would be far harder to learn.
Mathboy.
--
"Sometimes two [harmless] words, when put together, strike fear in the hearts of men -- Microsoft Wallet." - Dave Gilbert
[Useless Fact] Longest word typed with one hand. (Score:1)
Don't ask me where I found that out... I have no idea.
BTW my opinion on dvorak vs. qwerty is this : LEAVE ME ALONE!!! I JUST LEARNED QWERTY!!!
- 8Complex
Lack of DVORAK keyboards (Score:1)
Personally, I think as long as you type well now on a QWERTY keyboard, a DVORAK keyboard should provide a bit of difficulty to start out. But once you are used to it, then switching back and forth should be a minor change when typing. The main problem I see though is not being able to use the DVORAK layout on a laptop easially. I use my laptop more then I use a desktop computer anymore, and I don't feel like pulling of all the keys, rearranging them, then figuring out a way to remap the keys under Windows and Linux.
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Build your own (Score:1)
Re:Build your own (Score:1)
Any keyboard can be a Dvorak keyboard (Score:1)
Now, as for the benifits of the Dvorak keyboard: opinions are very mixed. I believe there were debates here on
Myself... I've never had the desire to type faster because I'd just end up making mistakes more quickly
"I love the smell of a burnt CPU in the morning"
Re:So how about a driver hack for Linux? (Score:1)
Re:What about CUA and ctrl-X,C,V ? (Score:1)
When I first tried Dvorak, I changed all keys -- and felt like an Emacs newbie for the first time in years. ("Huh? Why did the screen refresh 3 times? What, that's L now? Fsck! Where did P move to?" Also, I was learning Dvorak on a computer lab's QWERTY keyboards, so hunt & peck meant digging up docs - while still inside Dvorak.) After banging my head against this particular brick wall several times, I tried changing the control keys back. All of my hands' hotkey training worked again; and, since I don't associate those hotkeys with the letters anymore, it didn't screw me up for actual typing.
Given, this was under X11, so breaking the keymap halfway like that was easy. I have no idea how you would go about doing so for keymaps in Windows or Macintosh.
Debunking myths with references (Score:4)
Second, there have been no conclusive studies that Dvorak typists are any faster than QWERTY typists. The article at http://www.reasonmag.com/9606/Fe.QWERT Y.html [reasonmag.com] gives a reasonably good summary of the non-evidence of Dvorak superiority.
Lastly, my personal experience is that a friend who has switched to Dvorak said "It's a nightmare of pain relearning a new layout for no benefit whatsoever. Go ahead and learn Dvorak if you don't know how to type, but don't go through the psychic trauma of rewiring your fingers if you already are using QWERTY. Its not worth it."
Anyway. Use whatever keyboard makes you happy.
Peter
Don't listen to them (Score:2)
We all know that Dvorak was the one who published the great results about the Dvorak keyboard. Of course the results were biased. But that doesn't mean it's a worse keyboard.
You have only to look at a QWERTY keyboard to see that it was not designed to be easy. Notice that you can type "typewriter" using only keys on the top row. You think that is a coincidence? Also, see how many words you can type on the home row with QWERTY. Not many. How many with Dvorak (it's aoeuidhtns for those who don't know).
I have never heard of anyone who learned Dvorak "properly" who regretted the change, myself included.
Studies? We don't need no steeenking studies.
Where to get Dvorak Keyboards (Score:2)
Another one [pcconnection.com] for $49 at PC Connection
a pretty wild looking one.. [yahoo.com] "Comfort Keyboard System", which is available in dvorak, qwerty, sun and mac (Sun Qwerty? Wild!)
Dvorak keyboards - $50 (Score:2)
To address Cliff's query diretly, YES, DVORAK keyboards are available. DvortyBoards [dvortyboards.com] makes a keyboard that is hard-wired for both dvorak and qwerty. The keyboard I use is from their company, though it's an older model. It is a MS Natural-esque keyboard with a rocker switch to switch from dvorak to qwerty. The newer model has an extra key (actually, it's borrowed from one of the legacy keys though I can't remember which one) that switches.
For those of you using linux, this keyboard is an excellent choice. There is no need to mess with keysym files, set up bash (csh, tsch, sh, etc.) and X separately, just hit the toggle key.
For windows users, no need to screw around with the control panels or bitch at MS when you use a dos app (dos requires a separate driver, and MS didn't think to trap keyboard events and convert to the appropriate keyboard layout before passing the key to the dos app, so all of dos is in qwerty).
I'd cite statistics / etc. to show that dvorak is the superior layout but statistics can be so easily argued, so I'll just say that only a few thousand words can be typed on the qwerty keyboard without moving fingers to the top or bottom rows. With dvorak, over 30,000 words can be typed without moving the hands.
Opinion, and where to get them (Score:2)
I am a very strong advocate of the Dvorak layout, but as I alluded to before, it's not for everyone. If you're an IT type and have to mess with 50 different keyboards a day, it's probably not worth the time. I rarely have to type on other keyboards than my own, so I benefitted greatly at work and at home from switching.
And finally, you need to know where to get one. The one I have I got here:
http://www.dvorty.com
I love it. It's hard-wired, and has a Dvorak - Qwerty toggle key so you can switch on the fly any time you want. It's completely hardware driven and works on ANY computer you can plug it into. It's great for multi-user households. I bought mine for 70 bucks two years ago, and now I see that they're only 50 bucks. Well worth the investment.
If you're still not sure, pop the keys off your keyboard, rearrange them and find an xmodmap file to remap your keys. Try it out for about a month. I was admittedly pretty lame at typing before I started with Dvorak, but it took me about two weeks of medium use to get up to the same speed, and another week or two to blow my old speed away.
-mattyj@cts.com
Switchable Dvorak-Qwerty keyboard (Score:2)
DvortyBoards [dvortyboards.com] -- interesting site. They sell a switchable board (i.e. swap between Qwerty & Dvorak on the fly). US$50 plus shipping & handling. Apparently the translation is done in the keyboard itself, so it would be compatible with any OS.
--Mid
Again? (Score:5)
The Myth of QWERTY [slashdot.org] discussed in April
"there once was a big guy named lou
show some mercy, this horse is already dead (Score:4)
Good point: Dvorak is difficult for UNIX hackers (Score:2)
The reason you can type English sentences much faster is because dvorak was designed to take advantage of the way English words are spelt:
1. All vowels are on the left side of the keyboard and nearly all consonants are on the right side of the keyboard. This means that (compared with qwerty) if a particular character is typed with the left hand, the next character in the word is more likely to be typed by the right hand. By alternating hands more frequently, this gives the idle hand more time to move to where its next character will be.
2. All the common letters are on the home row so you don't have to move your hands as much. For example, look at the layout of the keyboard: http://www.ccsi.com/~mbrooks/dvorak/layout.html and work out how to type the word "the". Then compare with qwerty. I picked a small word because that makes the exercise easier. Pick a larger word if you wish and count how many times you need to stretch beyond the home row.
3. Even when you do need to stretch beyond the home row, there are easy regions to stretch to and hard regions to stretch to. Dvorak puts all the rare characters in the hard to reach places.
Qwerty, on the other hand seems to have been designed to make it easy to type the word "qwerty". If you're a one fingered typist.
But back to dvorak and UNIX hackers. I said before that dvorak makes it easy to type English sentences. Anyone who programs knows that programming doesn't involve many English sentences, or even English words. The UNIX command line is full of cryptic commands with all the vowels taken out. For example "ls" on the qwerty keyboard is easy to type because you alternate hands: "l" in the right hand, and "s" in the left. Because dvorak assumes that most words have consonants separated by vowels, you end up having to type all of "ls" with one hand, and unfortunately with the same finger in this case. Since this is one of the most popular commands in UNIX, this can be irritating.
For the moment, I have switched back to qwerty because too many things in UNIX are difficult to do with a dvorak keyboard (especially vi!). I plan to switch back to dvorak again in the future once I have an operating system as powerful as UNIX/Linux but which doesn't rely on typing in cryptic commands. For example, www.jos.org, a Java based operating system (shameless plug!).
:-)
--
Ryan Heise
Re:Test drive a Dvorak keyboard (Score:2)
and
of course still alias asdf ' ' and alias aoeu ' ' as above.
(in most shells if your using bash its alias asdf=' ' for those newbies out there
Test drive a Dvorak keyboard (Score:5)
First, print out a picture of the Dvorak layout. A GIF and a PDF version are on Marcus Brooks' page [ccsi.com].
Now, follow these instructions IN ORDER (or you'll have trouble changing back to Qwerty). Download the following xmodmap scripts:
Qwerty [wisc.edu] and Dvorak [wisc.edu]
Then, make an alias to change back and forth easily:
% alias asdf 'xmodmap ~/dvorak.xmodmap'
% alias aoeu 'xmodmap ~/qwerty.xmodmap'
I chose the alias so the same four keys are typed in either Qwerty or Dvorak mode. So just type "asdf" to toggle between them. Then you can decide for yourself and avoid all the flame-ridden commotion.
Re:DVORAK efficiency is a myth (Score:2)
--
Re:Cost of change outweighs ease of use (Score:3)
> systems (sic) hasn't been adopted world wide.
Funny how everybody in the world except the U.S. seems to have managed to switch.
(-1 : Offtopic)
Shaun
Test drive a Dvorak keyboard HERE (Applet) (Score:2)
http://www.dvortyboards.com/dvorak.html
What I've noticed in my typing (Score:2)
Typing in Dvorak significantly reduced the pain in my wrists. Maybe Dvorak is better. Maybe learning to type all over again helps you avoid the bad habbits you got into the first time you learned to type.
A Dvorak keyboard is almost as good as a locking screensaver for keeping other people away from your computer.
To type in Dvorak I look at the screen. To type QWERTY, I look at the keyboard. I cannot type in QWERTY on a keyboard labelled in Dvorak. I could type in Dvorak on a completely blank keyboard.
International Dvorak? (Score:2)
Anybody know about running Dvorak with none-American keyboard layouts? I realize that it can't really work as planned, since Dvorak is designed after the English languages use of letters, and since letters not used in English have to be moved to the side (öäå, three common letters in Swedish, are all on the right side of l and p on Swedish qwerty), but I write _mostly_ in English anyways.
All the xmodmap scripts I have seen seem to be likely to screw up non english keyboards, however. Does Dvorak dictate the position of the non alphabetic characters?
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I have some advice (Score:2)
In closing, I just have to recommend to everyone the most fantastic keyboard I have ever scene: The Acer Future Keyboard [acerperipherals.com] I don't work for Acer or anything, I just think this keyboard is the best thing since sliced bread. I know it looks funny, but having a touch-pad right in the middle of the keyboard with the cursor keys is really great for everyday use (although, I admit it is terrible for playing Quake).
Hope this helped!
Kinesis contoured QWERTY is better than either... (Score:2)
Re:Slow down (Score:2)
Since most people are right handed, well, it slows down most typists... With older lever-based typewriters, a right-handed typist would be slower, but the left-handed person would have more jamming--it evened out, speed-wise. Nowadays, lefties have an edge w/the QWERTY layout when using computers or more modern (ball-based) typewriters, because that pesky lock-up doesn't happen.
And, as much as a book reference w/out a hard reference is worth, there were comments in my old typing class "textbook" (and yes, I did take typing in high school, much to my chagrin) to the effect of companies choosing the QWERTY layout early on to slow down typists...
So how about a driver hack for Linux? (Score:2)
Or just cover them up or ignore them.
Then you have to remap all the
keys in your operating system - this would involve a different process depending on what operating system
you use.
So who's up for writing a hack for the linux keyboard driver to remap the keys for DVORAK under stty control? (Assuming it isn't in there already.)
You can do it in X but that doesn't help when you don't have X up.
Re:Dvorak links? (Score:2)
http://www.ccsi.com/~mbrooks/dvorak/ [ccsi.com]
How to Remap your keyboard in Windows (Score:3)
Win NT:
Open Control Panel
Open Keyboard Settings
Click on the Input Locales
Select your location
Click Properties
Choose US-Dvorak from the List
Win9x should be similar
Simple, innit?
Re:QWERTY = outdated (Score:2)
No, it's not. Your "interesting paper" is FUD. (Score:3)
For the Nth time, peruse this link: http://www.ccsi.com/~mbrooks/dvorak/dissent.html
To quote a poster to a different story, "All of the current anti-Dvorak hype stems from a _single_ paper, The Fable of The Keys."
And guess what, an overwhelming majority of posters to this story mention "The Fable of The Keys" as the only source of proof.
Alas, many don't bother to follow the above link either, so I'll just summarize a few key points:
- The Fable of The Keys is based on very sketchy and weak evidence. The most referred-to study in that article is the 1956 GSA study conducted by Dr. Earl Strong, who was an anti-Dvorak advocate. It's best illustrated by what Strong said a few years before the study:
"I have developed a great deal of material on how to get this increased production on the part of typists on the standard [QWERTY] keyboard.
Again, to provide analogies with Microsoft vs. Linux battle, that "convincing" 1956 GSA study is same as that recent Metrowerks "Windows NT vs Linux" comparison test--paid by Microsoft, biased, etc.
- The paper talks about "lack of solid evidence that Dvorak is objectively better." Damn, this angers me so much: so many people have reported great or just-as-good results with Dvorak, so many people reported hard, undisputable numbers that Dvorak reduces hand movements and thus has a great potential to increase typing speed and especially decrease typing injuries, that anyone talking about "lack of solid evidence for Dvorak" automatically has their IQ dropped to 20 in my mind.
- The reason you don't see Dvorak bundled with new computers (or otherwise be popular) is because it traditionally has been difficult/expensive to switch typewriters to Dvorak. The mechanisms were often hardwired for a layout and rearranging it was quite a costly process. For a similar reason, because it was not too easy to convert from Windows to Linux (e.g. when there was no UMSDOS or friendly installation programs), Linux did not gain such a wide acceptance as it deserved to.
- Just like the British system of measurements, QWERTY is outdated but too common to be easily replaced. QWERTY was designed to slow down (PERIOD), plus it was also designed so that salesmen could type "TYPEWRITER" using the top row only, saving them the semi-embarrasing task of hunting and pecking.
It is really upsetting to see such FUD and crap as "The Fable of the Keys" (again, comparable to Microsoft's "Linux Myths Explained") appear on the net and gain wide acceptance.
.
Re:Dvorak links? (Score:3)
I've collected several links [uni-sb.de] to dvorak keyboard sellers and dvorak ressources.
Due to the US-english dvorak layout is only different in the positions of the keys on the board, you may create your own dvorak keyboard by just switching your key caps around. And for X11 you can use xkeycaps and xmodmap to tell your computer that you've done that... :-) You'll find an dvorak-xmodmap at Peter Amstutz' Dvorak page [umass.edu].
But if keyboard doesn't allow to switch the key caps around you can also relabel them...
Dvorak Keyboard Sellers:
The Dvorak Layout [ccsi.com] in comparison to the qwerty layout can be found at Introducing the Dvorak Keyboard [ccsi.com] .
There are also efforts on creating non-english dvorak layouts [ccsi.com].
Dvorak? Bah! (Score:2)
Heres where the efficiency issue gets fuzzy; The Dvorak keyboard was designed to be efficient, but the Qwerty was efficient by mistake. It seems that the alternation of hands allows the brain and hands to get a jumpstart on the next key. The travel may be greater, but the hand is already there when the key needs to be pressed. Studies have shown that the two schemes show near identical results with 'new' typists.
Also at issue is the time spent retooling the brain to accept the new keyboard; Back in the 1950's, the US government (they were hoping to save a buck on typists) conducted a study where some Qwerty typists were trained on Dvorak keyboards, and others were re-trained on Qwerty. While both groups showed improvement, the Qwerty re-trains improved more than their newly converted Dvorak brothers/sisters (have to be PC here). What it comes down to is the fact that you are activly trying to increase your speed, and not schluffing along. I'm sure your friend was trying quite hard to learn the Dvorak layout and show to himself that it was faster! That constitutes training, in a way.
One last myth before I submit. Many people seem to think that Qwerty survived for all the wrong reasons. Qwerty keyboards were NOT the only ones available at the onset of typewriters, nor were they produced by the biggest company. Qwerty killed quite a few other keyboards (Hit IBM's patent search; there is an ingenious one laid out like an organ, with a key for each case of letter) and mostly won on merit.
As for myself, a dual typist? My speed on the Qwerty is faster than on the Dvorak, but only slightly. I use the Qwerty layout much more, and suppose that is the reason for the edge. I was suprised to notice that every time I walked away faster from the Dvorak my speed on the Qwerty was also marginally better. I'd be interested to find out if your mate has also noted this.
Re:Test drive a Dvorak keyboard (Score:2)
% alias asdf 'setxkbmap dvorak'
% alias aoeu 'setxkbmap us'
Re:QWERTY = outdated (Score:2)
Re:Cost of change outweighs ease of use (Score:2)
Re:Lack of DVORAK keyboards (Score:2)
How about an INTERNET keyboard? (Score:2)
How about a keyboard that gives the proper level of attention to those character we geeks are typing every few seconds?
Like at (@) and dot (.) and slash (/)? And for programmers, let's not forget #, %, &, = and !.
Hell...for most geeks the stupid punctuation symbols should be on the home row!
Speaking of home row...if we do get an Internet keyboard (around the time the US adopts the metric system) then I vote we put the slash key and the dot key be right next to each other so we all can shamelessly kiss up to our favorite news site
che-tongue-ek
- JoeShmoe
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Re:How about an INTERNET keyboard? (Score:2)
- JoeShmoe
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QWERTY = outdated (Score:2)
Re:First Post :) (Score:2)