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Ballmer Ordered To Testify In 'Vista Capable' Case
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:57 AM
from the take-the-stand-monkey-man dept.
from the take-the-stand-monkey-man dept.
alphadogg writes "A federal judge in Seattle has ordered Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer to testify in a class action lawsuit against Microsoft that alleges the company misled consumers in a marketing campaign for its Windows Vista operating system in which computers sold with an older Microsoft OS were labeled 'Vista Capable' when in fact they could only run a basic version of Vista. Ballmer has unique personal knowledge of facts surrounding the case, therefore he must face questioning, Judge Marsha Pechman of the US District Court for the Western District of Washington at Seattle ruled, according to court documents released late Friday."
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Ballmer in court (Score:5, Funny)
If they do, I think Microsoft stands a pretty good chance.
Re:Ballmer in court (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Ballmer in court (Score:5, Funny)
Judge: Uh, I hate to interrupt your fun, boys, but I got a few complaints this case is crooked.
Ballmer: [laughs] And how.
Judge: Gee, I'd hate to close you down. Maybe we can reach a little, uh, understanding here. [Holds out the palm of his hand and motions his fingers so as to suggest that this is a bribe]
Ballmer: I understand.
Bill: Um, hey, Ballmer, I-- I think he wants--
Ballmer: Not right now, Bill. Monkey Boy is talking to a Judge.
Judge: Uh, let me put it this way. I'm looking for my friend Bill. [nods as he says Bill] Have you seen any Bills around here? [nods]
Ballmer: Yes. [points at Bill] He's Bill.
Judge: [groans] I-- Listen carefully, and watch me wink as I speak, okay?
Ballmer: Okay.
Judge: The guy I'm really looking for--wink--is Mr. Bribe--wink, wink. [holds out hand again]
Ballmer: It's a lightweight operating system.
Jusge: All right, that's it, I'm shutting this shit down.
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Re:Ballmer in court (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Ballmer in court (Score:4, Informative)
Same thing after I figured it was spyware/malware related and reverted from the system restore partition HP provides (since you don't get disc media anymore)
Vista Capable at the low end of the spectrum is at best a complete lie.
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Re:Ballmer in court (Score:5, Funny)
all rise .... and duck!
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Re:Ballmer in court (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Ballmer in court (Score:4, Funny)
I wonder if they allow chair-throwing in court these days.
If they do, I think Microsoft stands a pretty good chance.
Unfortunately for him, Ballmer is being kept in a special plastic prison. All chairs have been replaced by ultra-light-weight plastic versions that will cause little harm if thrown. And as an added contingency measure, the chairs have been bolted down in the special courtroom. Unless a blue shape-shifter smuggles in a chair, it looks like he is stuck here permanently.
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Re:Ballmer in court (Score:5, Funny)
Prosecution: Following all the evidence that we have seen, in which many different customers and partners of Microsoft mention discussing the problems with you, do you maintain that you had no knowledge of these problems?
Ballmer: Erg... ugh... errg!
Judge: MISTER Ballmer! You have been warned before. I will find you in contempt of this court if you continue your attempts to dislodge the seat in the witness stand.
Ballmer: [Sits down, sweaty. Sighs.]
Judge: Answer the question, Mr Ballmer.
MISTER BALLMER! Why are you painting your face blue?!
Ballmer: I'm a PC and... I have just crashed.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Enough with the chair throwing. It's getting old!
Re:Ballmer in court (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Ballmer in court (Score:4, Funny)
Ballmer: Sure. Where do you want it to land?
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Re:Ballmer in court (Score:4, Funny)
I wonder if they allow chair-throwing in court these days.
If they do, I think Microsoft stands a pretty good chance.
The judge rules from the bench. She'd fsck'ing p3wn him.
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Re:Ballmer in court (Score:4, Funny)
I just had the image of Ballmer being brought in the courtroom in full Hannibal Lecter setup :-)
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And as a precaution... (Score:3, Funny)
...all courtroom furniture will be bolted down.
Re:And as a precaution... (Score:5, Insightful)
It would be far simpler to handcuff Ballmer instead.
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Hmm (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
At the end, it still comes with and runs a version of Vista.
There are true marketing scams, but IMO, this is not one of them.
Parent
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Informative)
Actually these machines *didn't* come with a version of Vista. They came with a sticker claiming they are capable of running Vista with no specific of which version of Vista they would be capable of running. As a result, this sticker meant different things to MS marketroids than it did to consumers who found the stickers misleading; hence the lawsuit.
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Re:Hmm (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Hmm (Score:5, Informative)
and the article: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080211-vista-capable-scheme-was-panned-at-microsoft.html [arstechnica.com]
Mike Nash, currently a corporate vice president for Windows product management, wrote in an e-mail, "I PERSONALLY got burnt. ... Are we seeing this from a lot of customers? ... I now have a $2,100 e-mail machine." Jim Allchin, then the co-president of Microsoft's Platforms and Services Division, wrote in another e-mail, "We really botched this. ... You guys have to do a better job with our customers."
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Re:Hmm (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Hmm (Score:5, Informative)
You bait them with pretty pictures and a new user interface, then you switch it out with something that looks and feels just like XP. Even their new marketing campaign (mojave) pushes the UI with the "participants" talking about how great everything looks. I have yet to see a vista commercial that talks about the technical merits of the operating system, because your average user doesn't understand or care about indexed search or file systems etc.
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Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Inevitable car analogies:
This car is ready to be entered in the Indy 500!
Well, actually it has a top speed of 35 MPH and can't even vaguely qualify, but you CAN enter it!
Off road ready!
Your driveway isn't technically a road and it can go there as long as it's not too steep. Just floor it, you'll eventually creep up to the garage.
Comfortably seats six (infants)
Anti-lock brakes (as long as you're not going more than 5 MPH).
Faster than any computer on the planet (in 1945)
Sound fair?
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Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Hmm (Score:5, Informative)
The sad irony is that MS lowered the standards to get Vista onto machines that could not support Aero. The original assumption that no one would buy these machines if consumers knew that they could not upgrade from XP to Vista. Considering the negative experiences that many of them consumers had on these machines, many of them don't want Vista nowadays.
This is certainly true.
I've got a Vista machine at home... 64-bit, dual core, 4 gigs of RAM... Runs fine. I might very well be better off with some other choice of OS, but I don't have any genuine issues running Vista. It is at least functional.
I've seen clients bring in Vista machines that are barely functional. They complain about how slow the machine is, how hard it is to do any work. These machines have the bare minimum hardware necessary to boot the OS. They've got 1 GB or less of RAM, a crappy on-board GPU, and some kind of underpowered budget CPU. And these people are miserable with Vista.
If Microsoft had required manufacturers to ship computers with decent hardware you wouldn't be seeing nearly as many people complaining about Vista.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If Microsoft had required manufacturers to ship computers with decent hardware you wouldn't be seeing nearly as many people complaining about Vista.
On the other hand, if Microsoft hadn't bloated Vista to the point of unusability on the average hardware being sold at the time, there would be even less people complaining.
A machine with a 2-2.8GHz CPU and 512MB-1GB of RAM was pretty much the middle of the road when Vista was launched, so it should run just fine on that configuration. With Aero, you'll need a decent graphics card, but you shouldn't need 4GB of RAM or a 3.4GHz processor just to run the basic system.
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
If Microsoft had required manufacturers to ship computers with decent hardware you wouldn't be seeing nearly as many people complaining about Vista.
On the other hand, if Microsoft hadn't bloated Vista to the point of unusability on the average hardware being sold at the time, there would be even less people complaining.
Replace "Vista" with whatever the latest version of Windows is, and that's pretty much true for all of them at the time they're released. The only shocking part is that some people seem to be surprised by this.
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Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Although I agree with the justice of going after them for misleading statements, I reckon all-in-all these people are better off, having got a PC with XP rather than being forced to wrestle the leviathan.
...except the point is that the point of the lawsuit is that people intending to run Vista bought the computers, and found to their chagrin that they couldn't run it. Which means they were wrestling the leviathan, just with even poorer weapons.
I do feel for them. I have a laptop I bought in April, 4GB RAM, and Vista (preinstalled) has always just been obscenely slow when doing anything like logging in, switching users, etc. Absolutely ridiculous.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
My laptop with 2GB RAM has no issues with Vista Ultimate x64. It does have an AMD64 Turion dual core though.
It came with Vista Home Basic pre-installed which DID run dog slow during everything. I'm pretty sure Microsoft, for whatever reason, purposely crippled the lower versions. Lord knows I've seen similar things happen when people misconfigure their GPO settings or make bad Registry changes manually.
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Informative)
Although I agree with the justice of going after them for misleading statements, I reckon all-in-all these people are better off, having got a PC with XP rather than being forced to wrestle the leviathan.
I think you misunderstand.
This isn't about whether a computer shipped with Vista or XP, this is about how a computer was labeled.
Microsoft has a qualification process that decides what sticker you're allowed to put on your PC. If your machine meets the requirements you are allowed to brand your computer as "Vista Capable".
Microsoft intentionally lowered the requirements for their sticker program in order to include computers that probably should not have qualified.
This means that there are people out there who bought computers intending to run Vista on them, and thought that the machine was capable of running Vista, and were then disappointed to find out that they could only run a very limited version of Vista.
You can certainly argue that XP is a better OS than Vista, and I don't think you'll see a whole lot of people disagreeing with you around here. But the fact of the matter is that people expected something that they weren't getting.
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So? (Score:4, Interesting)
Because people feel like Aero was a major selling feature? And that without Aero, Vista is not distinguisable from XP? I'd say that the difference is major, and is very much public knowledge, much to Microsoft's chagrin.
So what's the argument? That MS's ad campaign led you to believe anything over the "vista-sucks" hype? I don't think so.
Re:So? (Score:5, Insightful)
Initially, the "Vista Capable" logo meant that you'd be ready to use Aero, and able to run Home Premium or better using all its features. Then, due to pressures from OEMs and Intel among others, the requirements for "Vista Capable" changed to "can have some version of Vista installed", which pretty much meant that many of those machines can barely have Vista Home Basic installed, let alone give you a usable system, and they certainly cannot use Aero.
The gist of the argument is that Microsoft changed the requirements and definition of what "Vista Capable" meant along the way, misleading customers about what it really meant.
For Microsoft, from my point of view (I've followed the computing industry for 25 years or so now), it's business as usual and nothing that surprises me. I'm used to taking any recommendations they make and double it, and used to seeing them lie, cheat, deceive, coerce, defraud and generally do anything they can get away with in order to increase their profits and enhance their control of the computing industry.
Caveat emptor I say, but a lot of people aren't interested in doing research and make informed decisions, they'd rather believe the companies selling them this stuff, or the sales drones at the local big surface shop.
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Re:So? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:So? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:So? (Score:4, Informative)
But according to one Mr. Josh Bancroft, I remember that the Intel 915 was indeed capable of doing the Aero as well... and that Vista Beta actually ran Aero on the 915. This changed when Vista was actually released though.
http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2007/04/02/video-why-intel-915-graphics-dont-have-a-wddm-driver-for-vista/ [intel.com]
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=451104&cid=22395296 [slashdot.org]
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And in advertising, aero=Vista (Score:3, Insightful)
Another point to ponder is what Microsoft was leading people to see as "Vista" at that time. Pretty much all the advertisements and hype of Vista featured Aero (obviously it would sell better that way). Thus, the image that MS created was a Vista with Aero, which is not what people ended up getting or being able to run in the end.
Have you used one of these? (Score:3, Interesting)
My sister has an Acer laptop which is Vista Capable - it came with Vista Basic installed. It's the lowest end Acer laptop you can purchase (not sure of model.)
I used the thing the day she got it, before she had a chance to bloat it with stuff. The thing is gawd awefully slow. I'm remembering back in the 386 days when I got Windows 95 to run on an old PC. You click on START and within 30-120 seconds, the start menu appears. You click on the submenu, and within about 30 seconds it appears. You click
Re:So? (Score:5, Informative)
You must be new here. :P
Here's the point of the plaintiffs: Vista is advertised to have all these nice features. Aero was one of them. Vista Basic does not run Aero because the machines cannot support it. It was not evident to most consumers that Vista Basic was the most stripped down version that could not do this because it was in the fine print. It didn't matter the cost of the machine per se. It was the video chipset that mattered. Mike Nash, VP of MS, bought a $2,100 computer that could not run Aero.
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Re:So? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm arguing that the claim aero made Vista is false. Vista is different than XP in tons of other ways as well. Not better, just different. Mostly worse.
But to claim without aero, it's not vista, is just plainly false. If, without aero, the software ran better, faster, less hangups, and more compatible, I'd say that then, without Aero, it's not actually vista. Now you have an argument.
But the things that make Vista special are true in all versions:
-It's slow
It's incompatible with EVERYTHING
-It's a resource hog.
I fail to see how Aero makes any difference.
The claim is that MS changed their internal standards from AERO capable to just plain basic capable. As far as I'm concerned, Being vista capable means just that. Vista also supports tons of features that I can't take advantage of without particular hardware. I can't use the floppy disk capabilities without a floppy drive. I can't take advantage. I can't take advantage of the extras and bitlocker without upgrading to the Ultimate Edition.
So the fact that Aero was people's favorite feature does not in fact prove that it was in fact what made vista "vista." And therefore anything labeled Vista capable doesn't neccessarily need to run a particular feature to still be vista. People just liked the eye candy and didn't research before purchasing.
Only on an MS bashing site are people claiming something illegal may have happened. Unethical? Probably. Not done with customers in mind, of course. Enough to make you switch to linux or max, absolutely. I certainly don't trust them after this.
But to say their marketing tricked everyone, as opposed to the fact- people wanted to believe the cheapest gave them all the features, and decided not to inform themselves before buying? That's just stupid.
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Re:So? (Score:4, Interesting)
It's a bit of a game. If Aero wasn't such a resource hog, the nicer graphics would have made the now mostly hated interface changes more palatable. This is the first time anyone had to deal with graphics being an extra pay-for feature. Imagine having to do that for an FPS.
Mac OS X has changed what the expectations for interface graphics are. I'm sure a lot of People thought Aero would be something similar to Quartz and such.
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Re:So? (Score:5, Insightful)
Aero was /advertised as such/, which is part of the point here. The issue isn't the actual functionality of stuff in Vista Business or Ultimate; the issue is the misleading expectations Microsoft allowed.
Microsoft went, "Look! Here is our new shiny OS, Vista! Vista can play movies! Vista has shiny UI! Vista can sing and dance and make you coffee! And look, because this will be coming out soon, we've even labeled computers for you so you'll know which ones are ready for the Vista Experience!"
Consumers went, "Yay! Thank you, Microsoft! This makes my life easier! I, a non-technical consumer who do not wish to have to worry about hardware specifications but do wish to enjoy the benefits of this OS you are telling me about, have gone and bought one of your conveniently labeled computers!"
Then Vista comes out and the consumers try to run Vista Ultimate or Vista Business or whatever, and discover their computer can't. And Microsoft goes, "Oh... yeah, /that/ computer? That one is kind of a piece of junk. That has a crappy Intel chip which can only run this lower-end version. This version doesn't have shiny UI, only plays movies that are 3 years old, and the singing and dancing part only includes musical numbers from Bollywood films. And while this version of Vista can still make you coffee, the coffee can only be decaf with artificial creamer. Didn't you read all the fine print specifications on the Vista box?"
And the consumers go, "WTF BBQ I paid $2600 for this laptop! You said this would run Vista! There's a label right on the computer! I bought this because I didn't want to have to worry about figuring out what hardware my computer had and whether that was enough for various Vista stuff! I bought this computer /specifically/ since the computer says it can run Vista!"
Microsoft goes, "Well, that computer /does/ run Vista! Just not the same version of Vista we were telling you about earlier, that's all. Not our fault you got confused about that."
And the consumers go, "LAWSUIT!"
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Capable doesn't means complete (Score:5, Funny)
Part of the issue here is the meaning of the word capable. Balmer has already said that Vista isn't really a capable operating system (or at least wasn't when launched) so surely the argument therefore is that a machine that is incapable of running Vista is therefore getting exactly the same experience (or better) than someone who is actually running Vista.
Thus actually Vista Capable is a comparison between XP and Vista and thus you are better off having XP as that is just as capable as Vista.
Come on are we seriously thinking that Balmer can't talk his way around the word Capable?
Re:Capable doesn't means complete (Score:5, Funny)
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words words words (Score:3, Funny)
Vista-capable.
Is that a euphemism like "handicapable" instead of handicapped?
Talk about your PC language...
Microsoft should make good... (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft should simply offer a free upgrade to Windows XP for everyone who bought a computer with Vista installed that couldn't handle it.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
The prospect of Mr. Ballmer sitting in a cell chewing on a pillow would indeed be karmic since Microsoft's customers have been assuming the position ever since Vista was released. Cue the banjo music.
Re:But it still runs Vista. What's the problem? (Score:4, Informative)
So even though it could run Vista, people are mad they couldn't run themes that require more hardware?
Yes. They advertised Vista as having all these cool bells and whistles in terms of the user interface, and when people thought they were getting that and found out that they weren't, they were pissed. Moreover, Microsoft had very specific hardware requirements that they posted to the OEMs. After many of the OEMs busted their asses, spent tons of money, and re-tooled their product lines to meet the requirements, Microsoft changed them last minute (the day before release) for Intel, who had a flagship chipset that didn't meet the certification requirements. That (though of course IANAL) is the real legal issue here; whether Microsoft misled their partners with this whole "Vista Capable" program.
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Re:AAARRRRRRRRGHHHH!!!! (Score:4, Funny)
Steve Ballmer is many things, but he's not a pirate.
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