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AMD's Triple-Core Phenom X3 Processor Launched

Posted by CmdrTaco on Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:23 AM
from the hey-your-core-is-missing dept.
MojoKid writes "AMD officially launched their triple-core processor offering today with the introduction of the Phenom X3 8750. When AMD first announced plans to introduce tri-core processors late last year, reaction to the news was mixed. Some felt that AMD was simply planning to pass off partially functional Phenom X4 quad-core processors as triple-core products, making lemonade from lemons if you will. Others thought it was a good way for AMD to increase bottom line profits, getting more usable die from a wafer and mitigating yield loss. This is an age-old strategy in the semiconductor space and after all, the graphics guys have been selling GPUs with non-functional units for years. This full performance review and evaluation of the new AMD Phenom X3 8750 Tri-Core processor shows the CPU scales well in a number of standard application benchmarks, in addition to dropping in at a relatively competitive price point."
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  • by serviscope_minor (664417) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @11:27AM (#23172994)
    3 cores sounds "wrong" (it should be apower of 2, right?), but with 3 cores, you can connect each core to every other one on an internal bus much more easily than with 4 cores, since you need fewer busses, and they do not need to cross.
    • by deander2 (26173) * <publicNO@SPAMkered.org> on Wednesday April 23 2008, @11:29AM (#23173024) Homepage
      i believe instead they disable a not-quite-functional core from their quad-processor reject bin.
      • by qortra (591818) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @11:39AM (#23173164) Homepage
        That's what I remembered. Really though, the GP's post still stands; there isn't an amazing reason why we shouldn't have non-integer powers of two as our core count - or odd numbers, or prime numbers (3 is all of the above). I say, bring on the 7 core CPUs! Plus, marketing people might think that "5000" has a better ring to it than "8192".

        The only thing I don't see happening is fractional counts - 7.5 cores (7 full, and one "handicapped"). The OS would then have to learn to avoid the "gimpy" cores for CPU hungry processes.
        • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 23 2008, @11:53AM (#23173352)
          Odd numbers violate my obsessive need for symmetry. Excuse me now while I go and touch the door exactly 12 times.
          • by Zerth (26112) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @12:27PM (#23173756) Homepage
            So trilateral symmetry doesn't cut it for you?

            I suppose it could be worse, you could have some kind of fractional symmetry fetish and only feel normal surrounded by mandelbrot sets and serpenski gaskets.
          • by electrictroy (912290) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @12:31PM (#23173790)
            Ha ha. ;-) Well I drive a car with only 3 pistons (honda insight). That configuration is rare in the States, but pretty common in the European Union (like the VW Lupo or Polo). The advantage of a 3-piston engine is almost-equal power to 4-bangers, but less rotatin mass to achieve better gasoline/diesel efficiency. In other words, it helps the consumer save money.

            So for me "driving" a 3-core computer would feel pretty normal.

            • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 23 2008, @12:36PM (#23173836)
              The Geo Metro was a pretty popular little car in the USA, and it was a 3-cylinder. They don't make 'em anymore though, since after all, it saved people money.
              • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

                US government policy appears to be that we will be as wasteful as practical. A person who wishes to attribute this to a plan could suggest that this is intended to cushion the blow from peak oil.

                The hypothesis here would be that any reasonable person understands that, at some point, we will achieve the peak of oil production. At that point we'll see declining oil production into the future. Further, it would make sense to achieve peak oil while in a very wasteful and inefficient state. This will ma
          • by pclminion (145572) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @12:35PM (#23173826)
            A pentagon is not symmetrical? You have a strange definition of symmetry.
          • by eln (21727) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @01:55PM (#23174730) Homepage
            Your reply contains 21 words. Please remove one. Thank you.
        • by zogger (617870) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @12:42PM (#23173896) Homepage Journal
          PS3 uses the CELL processor [wikipedia.org] built with 8 cores and one is disabled, leaving you with 7 cores-one for the OS and 6 for games/apps. And it will boot and run a linux image, yellowdog [terrasoftsolutions.com], which is a ported centos. So there ya go, you can buy one if you want one. There's more exact specs at the links, that is a basic and probably sort of flawed summary.
      • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 23 2008, @12:12PM (#23173548)
        AMD have stated before that they intend to also build native triple-core processors.

        And as the GP states,

        you can connect each core to every other one on an internal bus much more easily than with 4 cores
        The beauty of it (from an engineering point of view) is that every core has been designed with 3 HT links. One goes to the memory, and two connect to other cores. So really, in a four-core system, there is an additional latency because information needs two hops to reach all of the cores. Three cores is the max AMD can do while still keeping latency at its lowest.

        I'm not exactly sure if this is how the demoted quad-cores will work as well, but I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to reconfigure the fourth HT bridge (on the disabled core) to act as a short-circuit.
        • Incorrect. (Score:5, Informative)

          by Visaris (553352) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @03:05PM (#23175440) Journal
          The beauty of it (from an engineering point of view) is that every core has been designed with 3 HT links. One goes to the memory, and two connect to other cores. So really, in a four-core system, there is an additional latency because information needs two hops to reach all of the cores. Three cores is the max AMD can do while still keeping latency at its lowest.

          AMD's cores (the compute engines inside a single chip package) are NOT connected by HT links. HT links are used for communication with devices OUTSIDE of the chip package, and run at a clockspeed much less than that of the core clock.

          AMD's cores are connected by a full speed crossbar switch, much, MUCH faster than HT. Most people really don't get that HT is chip-to-chip or chip-to-chipset, and that AMD has a fullspeed crossbar in the die. To say it one more time: AMD's cores within the same chip are connected at full CPU speed, and every core is exactly two hops to another: core-to-switch-to-core.
        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          Most likely, the core has been laser trimmed in such a way that it's not even connected any more. Almost certainly no way to re-enable it.

          For that matter, why would you suspect the rest might be dodgy? They've passed functional testing.
        • by frieko (855745) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @12:15PM (#23173584)
          Then you'll be disappointed to find out you've been buying chips with disabled pieces of cache for years.

          What's going on is out of 500 million transistors, perhaps ONE of them is defective. Whatever cache/core/etc that one transistor is in, is therefore useless. But in no way does this make the rest of the chip 'dodgy'.
    • by Lord Ender (156273) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @12:37PM (#23173856) Homepage
      "with 3 cores, you can connect each core to every other one"

      We call this formation the "flux capacitor."
  • by CajunArson (465943) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @11:38AM (#23173152) Journal
    The idea of reviving quad cores with 1 bad core is nice, but AMD is also playing a dangerous game. It is only in AMD's interest to sell triple core CPUs when the only alternative would be to throw the (large and expensive) die out since it can't work as a quad core. However, if these things became too popular AMD would be faced with the situation of either starving the market, or taking quad cores that actually DO work and intentionally blowing the fuses to make them triple cores.
          I think this might explain the pretty lackluster clockspeeds. Phenom has never clocked well, but when you can buy a 2.5Ghz quad core for not much more than the top of the line 2.4Ghz triple core, it's pretty clear AMD wants to unload these things, but not to make any big waves about it. If anything the triple cores ought to clock much higher and have substantially better power usage... but that is not the case.
    • Everyone already does that. That's one of the reasons that Celerons used to be so popular with the overclocker crowd. When Intel didn't have enough of one kind of Celeron but had too many of another, they would mark down the faster chips or disable some cache on a P3.

      Due to yields, if you buy a slow processor there is a good chance that it is capable of running quite a bit faster. When you buy a top of the line processor, that's much less likely.

      GPU makers have been known to do the same thing. I remember when you could flash a low end card (one of the GeForce 4s?) to be a more expensive one (more shaders) and you might end up with a working card (wasn't disabled due to errors, just to 'meet quota').

      This is normal. If they didn't do this, people would have to buy the faster chips which would cause their price to drop.

      • by Otter (3800) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @12:26PM (#23173726) Journal
        Everyone already does that. That's one of the reasons that Celerons used to be so popular with the overclocker crowd. When Intel didn't have enough of one kind of Celeron but had too many of another, they would mark down the faster chips or disable some cache on a P3.

        That may have happened, but usually when chips are marked down it's because they didn't perform within specs in the higher slot. The fact that they don't show obvious problems in the hands of an overclocker doesn't mean they didn't meet the maker's QC cutoffs.

    • by menace3society (768451) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @12:19PM (#23173638)
      It seems to me it'd be a tough row to hoe, marketing-wise. Places like Marshall's and Kohl's have conditioned customers to expect slightly-flawed merchandise and deep discounts, not minor discounts. If it's true that they aren't substantially more efficient than quad cores, then (under the assumption that energy is increasingly the greatest cost) there's not a terribly good reason for anyone to buy one.

      Personally, I would sell them at dual-core prices and get rid of the whole lot pronto.
  • Pricing... (Score:5, Informative)

    by heteromonomer (698504) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @11:39AM (#23173160)
    Looks like AMD's marketing and sales dept isn't being very smart here, pricing them the way they are. X3 chips are $20 cheaper than X4, and $5 cheaper than 2.2 GHz X4s. And with those benchmarks they are definitely not competitive against intel's 2-core and 4-core offerings. Come on guys! If you don't let go of some of the margins and price them aggressively against Intel you're going to die.
    • by alcmaeon (684971) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @12:17PM (#23173626)

      I agree, if they were smart they would have called it the "Trinity" chip, stuck a cross logo on the box, and sold it to the same Christian Fundamentalists who read the Lost Behind novels.

      A failed core goes from being a sign of bad engineering, to a sign from God.

      • by Minwee (522556) <dcr@neverwhen.org> on Wednesday April 23 2008, @12:56PM (#23174044) Homepage

        ...Christian Fundamentalists who read the Lost Behind novels.

        That's Left Behind. Lost Behind is the less successful spin-off where we discover that everybody who was carried off by the Rapture just got sent to a tropical island filled with Polar Bears.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        ...and sold it to the same Christian Fundamentalists who read the Lost Behind novels.

        I find that Christian Fundamentalists have no trouble finding their behinds since they spend a good portion of their
        day with theirs heads up in it.

        But what I think you were referring to was the Left Behind series of novels: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind [wikipedia.org]
      • by AHumbleOpinion (546848) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @01:04PM (#23174128) Homepage
        A failed core goes from being a sign of bad engineering, to a sign from God.

        That would be manufacturing not engineering, and no one gets 100% yields out of manufacturing. Not even God, look at the defect rate in his creation, human beings.
      • by AHumbleOpinion (546848) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @01:10PM (#23174182) Homepage
        I agree, if they were smart they would have called it the "Trinity" chip, stuck a cross logo on the box, and sold it to the same Christian Fundamentalists who read the Lost Behind novels. A failed core goes from being a sign of bad engineering, to a sign from God.

        Which god, Jehovah (old testament) or Neo (The Matrix)? Matrix fanbois would probably be a more lucrative market. Use the name Trinity but make the CPU packaging a glossy black instead of matte black.
          • Re:Jehovah or Neo (Score:5, Informative)

            by AHumbleOpinion (546848) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @01:46PM (#23174634) Homepage
            I don't know, when they double the speed of the 333Mhz processors, all of the CPU manufacturers labeled their chips as 667 Mhz. So, there must be some thought given to the the Christian tech sector. Of course, it could just be that they thought there were more Christian CPU buyers than Satanic ones.

            The speeds were in reality 333.33... and 666.66..., so simple rounding produces 333 and 667. Perhaps they were merely using better mathematics than when they named the 133 and 266. ;-)
  • Anything... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Abreu (173023) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @11:41AM (#23173198)
    ...that makes AMD more competitive and sell more processors is a good thing in my book.

    After all, healthy competition keeps them honest, eh?
    • Anything that makes AMD more competitive and sell more processors is a good thing in my book. After all, healthy competition keeps them honest, eh?

      And it is a greener strategy, less waste of resources and energy, so there are public relations and marketing benefits as well.
  • by Vigile (99919) * on Wednesday April 23 2008, @11:49AM (#23173300)
    • Stolen from the techreport article you posted:

      'I can't help but think this all must have looked different on AMD's roadmap when it was first being put together. I doubt they expected that the fastest Phenom would only run at 2.4GHz and, in doing so, would only just match the Core 2 Quad Q6600--an older product on the way out, replaced by the Core 2 Quad Q9300. That's the reality, though, and it's constrained AMD's pricing so much that the top Phenom quad core is $235. The compression through the rest of the
  • Intel (Score:3, Informative)

    by skiflyer (716312) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @11:57AM (#23173406)
    Is it just me, or looking at those benchmarks was the clear response to just buy intel since it wins in virtually every category anyway. Or were the intel chips listed not directly comparable? I'm still running my X2-4600+ and am thrilled with the performance... but if I were in the market, those particular charts would all be leading me to the Intel processors.
  • by pclminion (145572) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @12:32PM (#23173806)
    Who cares? Even if the chip was a failed quad core with one of the cores disabled, why is it bad for AMD to sell them as triple cores? Would you prefer they just melt the silicon back down, wasting time, money, and most importantly, energy? I certainly don't.
  • less heat? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ILuvRamen (1026668) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @12:41PM (#23173886)
    It would sound to me like it would run a heck of a lot colder than with 4. I mean it's designed to run at a decent temp with 4 cores running so with 3, it'll be really cold! If you underclock a processor to 75% it barely puts off any heat. Of course the 3 cores will still be maxing so it's different but it should be way cooler anyway. But of course that's a bigger problem than they think. I dunno how they're actually arranged but if 3 corners are hot and one not, plus the fact that it was a bad processor in the first place, these things are gonna fail so fast people are gonna be pissed! You don't heat a damaged straight from the factory chip unevenly!
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      All of Intel's quad-core processors are actually a pair of dual core dies on one chip. So if one core is bad, they make a single core CPU out of it maybe, or if they do just toss it, they are losing much less wasted silicon.
    • by Chandon Seldon (43083) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @01:32PM (#23174460) Homepage

      Intel doesn't fabricate quad core processors - they only make single and dual core chips. They may well be selling bad dual cores as single core processors (or not), but their chips are tested well before two dual cores get glued together into a quad core so they don't have the same situation that makes triple-core make sense for AMD.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Because it makes the algorithms for splitting up work simpler? I remember reading a review where they took a dual processor motherboard, put a dual core in one socket and a single core in the other. Some applications crashed in multithreading mode due to the non power of two number of cores.
      • That wasn't due to the applications. It was due to the system not being designed to work that way... the single-core CPU wasn't made to be able to talk to the other CPU's. The 3-core AMD CPU works perfectly well under any load.
          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            No, the quoted text from TechReport doesn't say anything about how well the CPU works. It suggests that some applications were coded with performance hacks for two- or four-core systems and didn't deal too well with having three.

            If the CPU executed faulty instructions, caused system crashes or failed to divide 4195835.0 by 3145727.0 properly then you could say that the CPU was not "working perfectly well". If causing Windows Vista to "have trouble" was a sign of a CPU not working then you would have much

    • Re:AM2+ vs AM2 (Score:4, Informative)

      by soulsteal (104635) <soulsteal@[ ]37.org ['3l3' in gap]> on Wednesday April 23 2008, @12:00PM (#23173440) Homepage
      So sayeth Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]:

      AMD confirmed that AM2 processors will work in AM2+ motherboards and AM2+ processors will work on AM2 motherboards. However, due to the lack of support of HyperTransport 3.0 and separated power planes in Socket AM2 motherboards, AM2+ chips will be limited to the specifications of Socket AM2 (HyperTransport 2.0 at the speed of 1 GHz, one power plane for both Cores and IMC). AM2 chips will not benefit from faster HyperTransport and separated power planes on AM2+ motherboards as they do not support them, AM2+ motherboard then fall back to compatibility mode using AM2 specifications.
    • by skulgnome (1114401) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @01:27PM (#23174408)
      AMD systems are already radically different from how PCs used to be constructed ten years ago. Memory controller integration (NUMA in a multi-socket configuration) and a non-shared front-side bus come to mind, as does the point-to-point bus used between the processor and the south bridge (HyperTransport).

      Contrast with Intel's "solution" which involves two sets or north and south bridges. Hardly elegant, and fails to expose the NUMA properties that the north bridges mitigate between one another.

      Once AMD gets the clockspeed bit tuned in, I expect Phenoms to hit the high-performance market like a bar of soap in a sock. HPC likes memory bandwidth, but they like low memory latency even more and that's where AMD has Intel by the goolies. (ever wonder why even Athlon X2s hold their own in game benchmarks? doesn't matter how many gigahertz there are in the chip, games have datasets far larger than that 6-meg L2 cache.)