YouTube Video Warned About School Shooting

mytrip writes to tell us that CNN is reporting at least eight dead in a Finland school shooting that was apparently planned out in graphic videos posted to YouTube. "YouTube appeared to have removed 89 videos linked to his account, many of them featuring Nazi imagery, shortly after the incident. Finnish media reported someone posted a message two weeks ago on the Web site, warning of a bloodbath at the school. A video posted earlier Wednesday, by 'Sturmgeist89,' was titled 'Jokela High School Massacre - 11/7/2007.' 'Sturmgeist89' identified himself as Auvinen, and said he chose the name 'Sturmgeist' because it means 'storm spirit' in German."

Interesting

[Biotech9 (704202)]

The shooter left a few documents (including a 'manifesto', a video of him shooting his 0.22 pistol in the woods and picture of himself) open to the public;
Freaky stuff.... [zami.pp.fi]

Re:Interesting

[Funkcikle (630170)]

On the plus side, he uses PNG format for his images.

Re:Interesting

[by Anonymous Coward]

They would have caught him sooner if only he would have used copyrighted music in his video posts

Re:Interesting

[SatanicPuppy (611928)]

The eternal question: Is he just messed up, or is he scary messed up?

People always telegraph their intentions beforehand, but seeing it is almost always reserved for after the fact. Most attempts to predict this sort of behaviour run aground on the fact that it doesn't sound all that different from regular messed up behaviour. Of course a lot of people would like to stomp that out, but a lot of antisocial people still don't go to the point of mass murder...or even solo murder, or self-murder.

I look at things like this, and my first response is never: "Oh gosh, we should have seen it coming!" For every real nutjob, there are a hundred others who are just being young, alienated, and angry. Every quasi-normal action is held up as a "warning sign" and every admittedly abnormal action is magnified, and then used to villify people who "should have seen it coming."

I don't know. Just my experience that, every time something like this happens, it's used as an excuse to harass people who don't fit the "normal" mold, whatever the hell that is, and when, in reality, 99% of the people you're harassing have done nothing wrong, and will do nothing wrong.

Re:Interesting

[Kjella (173770)]

The eternal question: Is he just messed up, or is he scary messed up?

And the even more practical YRO question: Even if you're 110% convinced he's scary messed up, what can you do before he goes ballistic? To get into therapy he either has to want it, be stark raving mad or show very clear violent tendencies. Most of these loners don't want help from the world they hate, they're not bubbling mad since they're rational enough to plan and execute and most of them just keep it all bottled up until it goes boom. In short, there's rarely something to formally latch onto in order to force them to get help.

it's not that complicated

[circletimessquare (444983)]

you can play with rocket launchers in your back yard, pledge eternal devotion to hitler, and ramble on and on about the craziest shit

none of theat matters

but when you threaten a school, no matter how obliquely, you should be arrested

this guy did that. the rest doesn't matter

Re:

[SatanicPuppy (611928)]

Oh sure, that wasn't meant to be a real number, just a piece of hyperbole. Truth of it is, school shootings are absurdly rare...They seem a lot less rare because the media makes so much of them.

For the number of people who dream of getting a gun and mowing down their high school (myself included on several occasions, and I was in college when Columbine happened), the number of people who actually do it is as low as can be.

I certainly think parents are the first line of defense. Teacher's can't be expected t

Re:Interesting

[cromar (1103585)]

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand that violent fantasies -- not actions, but fantasies -- are therapeutic and cathartic. Dante wasn't a crazed devil because he imagined and wrote The Divine Comedy. Nor was Shakespeare because he wrote King Lear and Macbeth. Look at just about any piece of creative work and you will find violence and usually a non-psychotic who wrote it.

Re:

[KKlaus (1012919)]

Whether violent fantasies are cathartic has nothing to do with whether they are risk factors or not (which they are).

Re:Interesting

[jpfed (1095443)]

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand that violent fantasies -- not actions, but fantasies -- are therapeutic and cathartic.

Here's why- because violent fantasies aren't therapeutic and cathartic.

There is a difference between things that feel good and things that are good for you. Catharsis feels good. Freud told us that catharsis was good for us. Freud also was full of shit.

Here's the deal. Our lives are full of circumstances that provoke us or challenge our assumptions and expectations. If you let things continue to do that, you will have anger. There are many ways to deal with this:

1. Accept the limitations of the situation. Find other ways to get what you want.
2. Use the anger to get energy to overcome the challenges in ways that respect others.
3. Use the anger to get energy to overcome your sense of empathy and ignore the rights of others.
4. Ignore your desire to do something about the challenges. Get depressed.

Violent fantasies do not reduce anger. "Venting" does not reduce anger. They both just increase it. You don't realize that they increase anger when you do it, because anger without a solution feels bad, and dominance and/or validation from others feels good. The good feeling you get after violent fantasies or from venting is not the antithesis of the original anger you felt, though- it's a reward for your anger. This can be good, if you were doing strategy 4 and, because of your increased anger, are ready to go to strategies 1 or 2. But if that's not the transition in strategies that's going to take place, then there's no benefit.

Side note: where did people get the idea that "therapeutic" meant "feels nice"? Improving one's health (mental or physical) very often involves sacrifice and changing habitual ways of thinking and acting. Things that feel nice like "therapeutic" shampoo or "therapeutic" massages or "therapeutic" whatever do nothing by themselves to promote growth or change.

Re:Interesting

[Litty_Bell (1185981)]

Well speaking from personal experience with people who think along the lines of "she wrote about rape and murder she's a crazy psycho killer" I have to agree with you. I write about some really I'd up stuff, I'm not gonna lie and say otherwise. Last year a teacher in my school decided it would be alright to just go through my personal notebook, he read all of my poems and short stories and almost every single one is dark and violent. He brought it to the principal who immediately decided I should be sent away to the nuthouse because I was going to kill everyone. One important thing to know, I have a two year old daughter named Violet, she's the product of rape. I write to deal with what happened to me. I was forced into therapy and they even pushed for expulsion, saying that I was a danger to myself and the school. Which is bull. Instead of waiting for them to decide if I should be allowed in school or not I left voluntarily and go to a new school now. I personally think the people telling those who do write violent or dark things that their crazy are in fact much more crazy then any writer could ever be. Okay, I'm done now...

It's the media

[Reader X (906979)]

I blame video games.

Well, someone had to say it.

/bracing for media hysteria to follow

Re:It's the media

[Max Romantschuk (132276)]

While it's reasonable to assume that some people will react with "We should ban X" -reactions, judging from the recent local news (I live in Finland) I think this time around there will be more talk about how no one noticed what was happening inside the shooters head and less about what to blame.

Interestingly, the news interviewed a friend of his who apparently hadn't noticed anything much more than the kid keeping to himself. It seems to have come as a surprise to everyone.

The shooter's manifesto also claimed that he did not wish anyone to be blamed for his own actions. It seems he saw the media reaction coming.

Ultimately, much depends on the survival of the shooter. When I last saw the news at 22:00 local time he was alive but in a critical state after having shot himself in the head. If he does survive the aftermath will hopefully have less guessing to be done.

There's a Wikipedia article about the Jokela school shooting [wikipedia.org] as well, with some bits and pieces of information.

Re:It's the media

[SatanicPuppy (611928)]

People always do those types of recriminations afterward; "Oh why did we not heed all these warning signs which are now obvious."

The truth of it is, those warning signs are almost never obvious beforehand, because if they were, someone would have locked the guy up. A lot of the behaviour which is "obvious evidence of psychosis" could have a lot of interpretations if the person never kills anyone.

I hope people are more sane in Finland than over here in the states, because something like that happening here would provoke nothing but unproductive attempts to restrict freedoms, hours and hours of meaningless television commentary, and a host of lawsuits.

Re:

[hitmark (640295)]

so maybe one should take everyone that shows signs in for a psychological evaluation?

one goes to the doctor if one get a runny nose or similar, but going to a psychologist when the world caves in on one is a lot tougher...

hell, one could maybe say that every teen should have a round of evaluation. they get medical checkups for physical issues do they not?

Re:

[hitmark (640295)]

what i find interesting is that in his mind he was doing the "right thing".

as in, he talks about himself as natural selection incarnate and similar.

basically he convinced himself that he had a right, and even a duty do to what he did...

do anyone see a parallel to terrorists in general, or even the speeches of world leaders before they go to war/intervention?

makes me wonder what humans are able to do if they convince themselves that its the correct thing to do.

hell, you could probably replace "natural select

Don't ban YouTube

[dedazo (737510)]

No, destroy it. Take off, nuke the whole thing from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

While you're at it, ban guns, condoms, Gucci, sharp objects, blunt objects, Hello Kitty, the internet, pipes, pr0n, "Humanity is overrated" T-shirts, cottage cheese, IBM, plastic rulers, bubble gum, cloned sheep, ballpoint pens, Ray-Ban glasses, Fark, and Day-Glo. Oh, and CowboyNeal.

The children. Think of the children, for god's sake.

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[Hatta (162192)]

While you're at it, ban guns, condoms, Gucci, sharp objects, blunt objects, Hello Kitty, the internet, pipes, pr0n, "Humanity is overrated" T-shirts, cottage cheese, IBM, plastic rulers, bubble gum, cloned sheep, ballpoint pens, Ray-Ban glasses, Fark, and Day-Glo. Oh, and CowboyNeal.

I'm almost with you here man, but what do you have against cottage cheese?

Re:Don't ban YouTube

[torkus (1133985)]

"I'm almost with you here man, but what do you have against cottage cheese?"

Because it gets into thighs somehow and is capable of totally ruining the view at the beach.

How freedom is lost

[riceboy50 (631755)]

How else could career politicians stay in power other than to appease the masses with knee-jerk measures that strip a small piece of freedom away? Who needs the long-term big picture when there are kids dying today? </sarcasm>

Re:How freedom is lost

[sqrt(2) (786011)]

When the PATRIOT act was passed I said if an attack of this magnitude (9/11) every 50 years is the price of liberty it's still worth it.

And that may sounds selfish if you know someone who died on 9/11 but I have to live in the US too, so I have just as much chance of dying as anyone. People die from guns; worth it for the freedom to own guns. People die from drugs; worth it to have the freedom to control your own body. People die from terrorist attacks; worth it to have freedom and privacy. The only way you can win against terrorism is by not fighting it and LIVING FREE. Don't take stupid risks, but by far the bigger danger is from over correcting and NOT from doing too little. This is not something people like to hear, and so we get stories like this one and the politicians take away our guns, our drugs, our privacy and we say it's worth it to protect ourselves. I fear that the sun will rise on a day when a generation of Americans wakes up and finds that they no longer have any freedoms left to give.

Of course it is.

[SatanicPuppy (611928)]

God the PATRIOT act is a fricking nightmare. Has it made anyone safer?

The real issue is, 9/11 won't happen again. As a country, we've learned our lesson about "just sit tight and wait" when it comes to plane hijacking. Box cutter? You best have a flamethrower next time, because me and everyone in business class are going to beat you to death with our laptops as soon as you start trying to wave that piddly crap in our faces. Akbar Macbook, Bitch!

It was a surprise. People bought it. That day has passed. But in response we have done unto ourselves far worse things than they could have ever hoped to have accomplished. Massively stupid.

And we will have other successful attacks on our soil. It's inevitable that, over time, everyone will miss someone. The occasional deranged teen will go on a shooting rampage. The occasional terrorist will pull off a successful attack.

But the fact that there is a possible danger is not a reason to upend your entire society. Analyze, find your mistakes, and correct them...Don't throw out a system that failed once, and try to replace it whole cloth with something new, designed by committee! Ridiculous.

The Geek as "Rambo"

[westlake (615356)]

The real issue is, 9/11 won't happen again...Box cutter? You best have a flamethrower next time, because me and everyone in business class are going to beat you to death with our laptops as soon as you start trying to wave that piddly crap in our faces. Akbar Macbook, Bitch!

This is real world and not the video game, more likely you will doing something involuntary...and messy.

It would be altogether extraordinary if you were physically and emotionally prepared to challenge a close-combat trained killer who had just slit the throat of a stewardess to make his point.

Finland and the Nazis

[Dynamoo (527749)]

I'll start off by saying that I work with quite a lot of Finns and they're a great bunch of people who I have a great respect for.

However, Finland has a unique relationship with Nazism that Americans and other Europeans don't really know much about. The history of Finland during the Second World War [wikipedia.org] is quite different from any other country. To a certain extent, the Nazis could be argued as the saviours of Finland, because historically Finland's greatest struggle has always been with Russia.. and to that extent, Germany was a natural ally during WW2.

The dichotomy is that the Finns are a democratic and fair-minded people, and the Nazis were exactly the opposite. But as the famous saying goes, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" - and this is precisely what happened during the war.

I'm not saying that Finns are fascists, and I'm not even saying that *many* Finns are fascists, but what I am saying is that perhaps Finland is the *only* state that at least partly owes its ongoing independence to co-operation with the Nazis. That's why I'm not completely surprised to read about Auvinen's Nazi obsession.. it's a disturbing secret of Finnish history.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[tietokone-olmi (26595)]

Please note that Finland also had to fight the Germans after Finland made separate peace with the USSR at the end of the Continuation War. This one was known as the Lapland War, and it was mostly fought by teenagers since the treaty with the USSR somehow managed to disqualify anyone experienced from being in the army for real.

Nazi Germany was an ally to Finland, but they were a bitter enemy afterward. This is why any neo-nazi in Finland is by definition utterly fucking bonkers, just like an overt Stalinist would be (though perhaps a bit less than the same Stalinist in today's Russia).

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[CptPicard (680154)]

There is nothing secret about it -- it's basic Finnish history, and of course still a bit of a bone of contention among historians and even regular people whether joining Nazi Germany in Barbarossa was such a bright move. Personally I think there was not much choice -- had we just sat there on our hands, the possibility is high that Stalin would have attacked again after Winter War anyway, so some sort of pre-emption was logical when Germany was going strong. I probably would have made the same choice at that time of history. Finland has also always had a strong bond to Germany -- especially militarily -- that goes all the way back to our Civil War when the whites got training from Germany to suppress the communist rebellion. Essentially the officers of our WW2 were probably German-trained for a significant part.

This was a marriage of convenience, and it must be pointed out that for example Finland never joined Germany in their ethnic cleansing plans. We actually had a Jewish synagogue out there at the front -- fighting against the Soviets! Marshall Mannerheim, the country's lead figure at the time and a cosmopolitan gentleman and officer from the Czar's army originally, was personally disgusted by Hitler, whom he considered to be a barbarian. Yes, we have German ties and being made to march to Siberia by Stalin was the worse option. I would strongly disagree with your idea that we might have had much Fascist sympathies during the time -- our extreme right wing was suppressed during the 20s and 30s right after the extreme left wing was suppressed after Civil War. We remained remarkably centrist and democratic throughout the whole ordeal.

Re:Finland and the Nazis

[CptPicard (680154)]

You'd have more credibility if you were not posting as AC, but I'll respond anyway... Finland's existence was threatened both ways, and Stalin was particularly determined to make Finland pay for resistance during the Winter War. With the Germans you might have become some kind of a vassal state with the rest of Europe, but it wouldn't have ended up with people shipped to Siberia... I don't understand why you fail to see the choice that had to be made.

Mannerheim had to deal with Hitler because we needed the weapons. Doesn't mean you have to like the chap personally to do diplomacy.

Re:

[vertinox (846076)]

(I Love Pia Kaamos)

Small world. Personally I sold Pia my old car for $200 bucks a few years ago and dated a friend of a friend of hers.
She moved out to California last I heard, doing modeling.

But more to on topic, Finland stayed independent by making a deal with the Soviets to kick the Germans out after being able to hold the Soviets off for a while during 1944. So, allies turned enemies and Stalin didn't really seem that interested in infiltrating Finland after the war.

Text from his YouTube profile (before it was suspe

[by Anonymous Coward]

Subscribers: 120
Channel Views: 72,410
aka NaturalSelector89 (3/15/2007 - 10/19/2007).

YouTube suspended my previous account but I am back now :) My new account name is German and means "Stormspirit" in English.

http://rapidshare.com/files/68 [rapidshare.com] 015773/Pekka-Eric_Auvinen___Jo kela_High_School_Massacre.zip
Name: Pekka-Eric Auvinen
Age: 18
Male from Finland.

I am a cynical existentialist, antihuman humanist, antisocial socialdarwinist, realistic idealist and godlike atheist.

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM! JUSTITIA SUUM CUIQUE DISTRIBUIT! SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS!

I am prepared to fight and die for my cause. I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection.

You might ask yourselves, why did I do this and what do I want. Well, most of you are too arrogant and closed-minded to understand... You will proprably say me that I am"insane", "crazy", "psychopath", "criminal" or crap like that. No, the truth is that I am just an animl, a human, an individual, a dissident.

I have had enough. I don't want to be part of this fucked up society. Like some other wise people have said in the past, human race is not worth fighting for or saving... only worth killing. But... When my enemies will run and hide in fear when mentioning my name... When the gangsters of the corrupted governments have been shot in the streets... When the rule of idioracy and the democratic system has been replaced with justice... When intelligent people are finally free and rule the society instead of the idiocratic rule of majority... In that great day of deliverance, you will know what I want.

Long live the revolution... revolution against the system, which enslaves not only the majority of weak-minded masses but also the small minority of strong-minded and intelligent individuals! If we want to live in a different world, we must act. We must rise against the enslaving, corrupted and totalitarian regimes and overthrow the tyrants, gangsters and the rule of idiocracy. I can't alone change much but hopefully my actions will inspire all the intelligent people of the world and start some sort of revolution against the current systems. The system discriminating naturality and justice, is my enemy. The people living in the world of delusion and supporting this system are my enemies.

I am ready to die for a cause I know is right, just and true... even if I would lose or the battle would be only remembered as evil... I will rather fight and die than live a long and unhappy life.

And remember that this is my war, my ideas and my plans. Don't blame anyone else for my actions than myself. Don't blame my parents or my friends. I told nobody about my plans and I always kept them inside my mind only. Don't blame the movies I see, the music I hear, the games I play or the books I read. No, they had nothing to do with this. This is my war: one man war against humanity, governments and weak-minded masses of the world! No mercy for the scum of the earth! HUMANITY IS OVERRATED! It's time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks!

Justice renders to everyone his due.
Country: Finland
Occupation: Unemployed Philosopher, Outcast
Companies: Human Race (evolved one step above though)
Interests and Hobbies: Existentialism, Freedom, Truth, Misantrophy, Social / Personality Psychology, Evolution Science, Political Incorrectness, Women, BDSM, Guns (I love you Catherine), Shooting, Computer Games, Sarcasm, Irony, Mass / Serial Killers, Macabre Art, Black Comedy, Absurdism
Films and Shows: The Matrix, A View To A Kill, Falling Down, Natural Born Killers, Reservoir Dogs, Last Man Standing, Full Metal Jacket, Dr. Butcher MD (aka Zombie Holocaust), Saw 1-3, Lord Of War, The Deer Hunter, True Romance, The Untouchables, 28 Days Later, 28 Weeks Later, Idiocracy, They Live, Apocalypse Now, End Of Days, The Shining, The Dead Zone, Dr. Strangelove,

Oh, how fucking original...

[meringuoid (568297)]

... He's a school shooter-upper. Love that movies list. Oh, and that music list. And fuck, he even likes Nietzsche.

Word of advice, you fuckwit: the Will to Power does not involve random murder. Nor does killing a bunch of people including yourself count as a good move, evolutionarily speaking.

Shit. If I didn't know he'd actually done it, I'd think this was a joke. You couldn't get a more perfect stereotype of the school shooter. This is just made for the media - I almost wonder if he wrote this on purpo

The sad part...

[Kazrath (822492)]

is how desensitized people are to this type of violence. One of my co-workers is friends with an individual that attends that school. He made a joke "Well at least I get to take the rest of the week off and do some drinking!".

Re:The sad part...

[jjohnson (62583)]

I wouldn't be too sad about this--I don't think it indicates a blasé attitude. People have long made jokes like that at dark times, as part of coping, or just from a sense that life goes on. Salon has a great article on the venal, silly, and generally unworthy things that many thought on 9/11: Forbidden Thoughts on 9/11 [salon.com].

For those who aren't following the story:

[Wilson_6500 (896824)]

The gunman has apparently died of his wounds. At least that's the last needless death we can expect to come from this particular saga.

Save the World

[iridium_ionizer (790600)]

Save a Mentally Ill Person, Save the World.

There was recently a public service announcement on TV that went somewhere along the lines of: Yeah, your friend may flake out on you, or act withdrawn sometimes, but what someone suffering from a mental illness needs most is a friend.

I know that it is human nature for people to make friends with people who fit in similar niches as themselves. And maybe in an idealized view of smaller communities of yesteryear, someone suffering from a mental illness would be more accepted, if only out of necessity (or maybe not). But it is not hard to imagine how in modern society, with so much emphasis on a mobile society and independence, that a person with only a mild case of mental illness could find themselves suddenly isolated and without a support group of family and friends. This could make an illness that was once barely noticeable to become dishabilitating.

Yes, people are free to choose to improve there circumstances or seek assistance, but if there is anything which Nazism and Stalinism taught us it is that even normal people can act in horrible ways given the (im)proper environment. And before this analogy is lost on you, remember that people with mental illnesses generally have either genetically-determined imbalances in their brain chemistries, or else traumatic past experiences. Most people don't wake up one day and decide to become mentally ill.

So instead of making jokes about people that we know as being "the next mass murderer/serial killer/etc" and effectively shunning said person, we should try to include them into our social circle. Otherwise we are just complaining about the symptoms without bothering with the inoculation. It's our society, if everyone did something small we could avert at least some of these tragedies.

Re:Obviously

[n dot l (1099033)]

No. The correct solution is to arrest anybody who posts videos on YouTube.

Only if we can also arrest those who post comments on YouTube.

Re:Obviously

[PachmanP (881352)]

Only if we can also arrest those who post comments on YouTube.

No, they shouldn't be arrested but simply shot on sight.

Officer: "Are you H4wTKat666?"
H4wTKat666: "lolz yaeh y?"
Officer: "Did you post this?"
*lolz OMG u r a fag. tHeys is FAKE!11!oneone*
H4wTKat666; "lolz yaeh"
*Officer shoots H4wTKat666*


I guess in afterthought, this could be in bad taste. Oh well.

Re:

[MightyMartian (840721)]

Then don't open the fucking topic, you half-wit toadhead.

Re:What's Nerd about this Article?

[TheVoice900 (467327)]

I love how comments with the phrase "half-wit toadhead" can get modded insightful here. Reminds me why I keep reading :)

Re:What's Nerd about this Article?

[Sponge Bath (413667)]

How is this nerd news?

He posted to YouTube! (That's on the intarweb)
He is an alienated youth! (like many /. readers)
Linus Torvalds is also Finnish! (though they probably did not know each other)

Geek - O - Rama

Re:

[MightyMartian (840721)]

Oh come on, we don't think the weak-minded masses should be killed, we just think they should use OpenOffice.org!

Re:Obviously

[Hatta (162192)]

That doesn't necessarily mean someone implicitly questions the existence of the 'holocaust'. Maybe they just think it's silly that there's a special word for genocide against jews. I know I do. Genocides have happened throughout history, there's nothing particularly special about the genocide of the jews during WWII that should get it a special term. In fact, I think the fact that there is a special term smacks of racism. That somehow the 8 million jews that were killed by the nazis were more important than the 12 million who died at the hands of Stalin, or the millions of Native Americans killed by the US government.

Re:

[MrCopilot (871878)]

. Genocides have happened throughout history, there's nothing particularly special about the genocide of the jews during WWII that should get it a special term. In fact, I think the fact that there is a special term smacks of racism. That somehow the 8 million jews that were killed by the nazis were more important than the 12 million who died at the hands of Stalin, or the millions of Native Americans killed by the US government.

Umm, I think the survivors of a particular genocide can call it whatever the

Re:Obviously

[insomnyuk (467714)]

Typically, Jews refer to the Holocaust as Shoah, or calamity.

Re:Obviously

[BobMcD (601576)]

They weren't just exterminated, they weren't just ostracized from society, they were tortured, starved, experimented on, persecuted, and so on.

Look, you probably do need to open your mind just a tad. The Native American got at least as bad a deal from the US as the Jews got from Nazi Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears [wikipedia.org] (forced relocation, numerous examples here as well)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre [wikipedia.org] (machine guns turned on women and children)
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/281/22/2127.pdf [ama-assn.org] (smallpox used as a biological weapon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_treaties [wikipedia.org] (hundreds of broken treaties)

I'm already bored with this, but I could certainly keep going.

I'll grant you that the holocaust is far more recent, but that doesn't really make it somehow more terrible nor more relevant.

Lots of people get the shaft on a regular basis. Yes, European Jews of the 40's are in that crowd. No, we probably shouldn't infringe on someone's right to question whether or not it happened (or at least happened exactly as it was reported.)

If I have to permit people to claim that there is no God, you also get to permit people to claim things you believe to be false.

Right?

Re:Obviously

[BobMcD (601576)]

Well, you may want to compare the actual practice with the spoken policy. The US's position on Native Americans essentially mirrored that of the Nazi's towards the Jews:

They are less than human, and we will take what they have through any means necessary.

I realize that they SAID different things while they were doing it, but personally I would actually put this in the 'Pro' column for the Nazis. If you were Jewish you KNEW that the Nazis couldn't be trusted, and as a feature of this many, many people got out before it was too late. The Native American was shamelessly duped over and over again by a government that claimed to be a friend, claimed to treat them as equals, etc. This is far more dispicable in my humble opinion...

The holocaust refers to an event in history

[by Anonymous Coward]

The holocaust refers to the mass exterminations of Jews AND homosexuals AND gypsies AND whoever else was included in the purging of human life. It is an event that is named the holocaust. It's not a special "Jew massacre". The only thing that smacks of racism is you believing that it is somehow exclusive to Jews and disliking it for that.

Re:Obviously

[Gideon Fubar (833343)]

no, buddy.. you're modded troll because you were inciting them.. perhaps flamebait would be more appropriate, but you got modded down because of your own statements.

I dig why you'd be upset, but it ain't good karma.

Re:Crazy Idea

[BewireNomali (618969)]

M.A.D. It worked for your superpowers. Now let's make it work for you.

Re:

[Cornflake917 (515940)]

That's not a crazy idea, that's the most retarded idea I've ever heard.

Yes, lets give children guns, look at how well thats working out for them in African countries in civil war.

Re:

[MightyMartian (840721)]

I've seen enough anti-Semitic monsters on Usenet that I don't take anything for granted. These people do exist, and do use the Internet to get their lies and venom out there. Matt Giwer [nizkor.org] is probably one of the most infamous, and one that I've crossed paths with a few times.