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US, Asia, Europe Ceding Web Dominance

Posted by Zonk on Sat Apr 14, 2007 08:39 PM
from the hello-new-friends dept.
An anonymous reader writes "A new study shows that presence of the US, Asia, and Western European countries on the web is strongly declining. Newly internet-empowered countries are booming; many geographical regions are showing exponential growth, including Eastern Europe and South America. Chris Harrison explains: 'Countries that have never been able to place a website in the top 500 are now pushing dozens of established websites out of this prestigious list. This trend is both recent (within the last two years) and accelerating. Interestingly, Asia is seeing it's presence eroded the fastest, especially China.'"
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  • Africa? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bhouston (788429) on Saturday April 14 2007, @08:47PM (#18737283)
    I noticed in Chris Harrison's website a lot of talk of "the rest of the world enters front and center stage" but while he discussed North America, Europe, Asia and South America, he didn't mention Africa at all. Any word on what's up with Africa and internet usage, let alone the most popular domains? I know little about this subject, but am curious now.
    • Re:Africa? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 14 2007, @08:56PM (#18737355)
      I am an African prince. If you help get my website out of this country onto the top 500 list I will share millions of US dollars with you.
    • I remember seeing on a Bob Geldof docco that Africa is the largest growing market for mobile phone sales, and that mobile phone towers were popping up everywhere.

      I don't know how factual that is though.
    • Re:Africa? (Score:5, Informative)

      by djupedal (584558) on Saturday April 14 2007, @09:37PM (#18737617)
      Any word on what's up with Africa and internet usage, let alone the most popular domains?

      Based on the contracts I've been validating over the last six months (w/the Chinese govt. making loans to help them buy such things...from Chinese suppliers, of course), Africa is just now getting the hardware to support a telecom infrastructure. I'd give it at least another 24 months before it could even think about penetrating any part of CH's listings.
      • Re:Africa? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by imemyself (757318) on Saturday April 14 2007, @08:54PM (#18737345)
        That might be the case in central Africa, but I would think that it might be a little different in more industrialized nations like Egypt and South Africa. I've heard of bloggers in Egypt several times (one that got arrested IIRC), so I'm assuming that the Internet is atleast somewhat common there.
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          There is a thriving Egyptian Linux user community out there.
          We don't hear as much as we should do, but that's likely to be a language barrier rather than technological.
          Its much like knowing there is a great Chinese internet population, but a totally different (and relatively rare) thing to speak to 'native' folks without much Western custom imparted.

          I hope Googles auto-translation thing hits the spot.

          http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=egypt+linux +users [google.co.uk]
        • Re:Africa? (Score:5, Informative)

          by alienmole (15522) on Saturday April 14 2007, @09:16PM (#18737475)
          Googling for "site:za" brings up 16 million hits, so there's some activity there, but compare that to 7 billion pages in the .com domain. That's obviously not an entirely fair comparison, since .com is used globally, but it gives some idea.

          Companies like Amazon have development offices in South Africa, to exploit cheap talent. But in general, although South Africa is industrialized, the proportion of the population wealthy enough to have Internet access is pretty small. Here's an article, Internet Access in South Africa, 2002 [theworx.biz], which suggests 3.1 million users at the end of 2002, and that number wasn't growing fast. Costs for Internet access are still relatively high.
          • Re:Africa? (Score:5, Informative)

            by Telvin_3d (855514) on Saturday April 14 2007, @09:41PM (#18737649)
            A better comparison for your "site:za" (South Africa) might be "site:ca" (Canada).

            South Africa, population 47 million
            Canada, population 32 million

            South Africa .za web presence 16 million
            Canada .ca web presence 107 million

            That's quite the divide, isn't it?
            • Very good idea, thanks. I actually tried checking .us originally myself (it has 56 million), but of course no self-respecting US company uses the .us domain. ;)
            • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

              Wow, you're sure projecting a whole lot of stuff there. I didn't say anything about "smarter", "less talented", "more talented", or "non-talent" on either side. Nor did I say "overpriced". It's just a simple economic fact that a U.S. dollar goes a hell of a lot further in South Africa than it does in the U.S. As it happens, I'm originally South African myself, I just happen to be living in the U.S. -- to exploit rich customers, you might say. So I have some experience of both sides.

              The whole point of "
        • South Africa (Score:5, Informative)

          by mac1235 (962716) on Saturday April 14 2007, @09:16PM (#18737491)
          The infrastructure is good here, but there is a monopoly carrier, Telkom. Bandwidth is so exorbitant overseas hosting is common. Unfortunately this is not likely to change soon. see http://www.hellcom.co.za/ [hellcom.co.za] for a Telkom hate site, or google "incompetent idiot", the first result is the one you want.
          • ...google "incompetent idiot", the first result is the one you want.

            And many the other results show she's in good company :-)
  • All the good .com names are taken and used for pay per click domain parking!
    • what I don't get is why that is a working business model. There are so many ways to toss an ad in front of someone that is not interested in your product, why are the "related search" parked domain sites proffitable? If you are an advertiser surely you would pay more for an impression on someone that had even a small chance of really being interested in your product, rather than an ambush ad? I don't get why they pay anything significant for those clicks. 100% of the time when I typo a url or something
    • In fact, it is a good indication why the top 500 site is a bad indication for web dominance. If you are a sucessful global company (e.g. Sony, Siemens, Samsung, same for internet companies like google, yahoo, eBay etc), you tend to use a .com domain name at the top and direct the traffic to the localised version in accordance to the selected language. In that case, it is really not that sure what the top 500 site statistics mean. For example, a hypothetical site www.example.com can choose either www.exam
      • People outside of the U.S. (external citizens aside) should not be permitted to have a .com TLD unless they can show they have a business within the country to be associated with that domain.
        So what's .us for again ?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 14 2007, @08:54PM (#18737343)
    Developing world developing.
    • > Developing world developing.

      Not sure... Seeing what my fellow brazilians did to Orkut, sometimes it feels like it's going backwards.
  • "Ceding"? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Goaway (82658) on Saturday April 14 2007, @09:07PM (#18737431) Homepage
    They're going, oh well, we're not gonna be doing this anyway, you can take over the internet for us?
  • they've probably been doing this "eroding" on their own, what with their having the world's most powerful national firewall and all. And I doubt they care very much whether the rest of us think their position in the Web is being eroded.
    • Wish I had mod points...

      You're probably on to something there. The popular idea that China is the next economic and social superpower has a major flaw - they're still politically communist, regardless of their market practices. That'll hold back true expansion no matter what you make for the rest of the world or how much you sell it for.

      The "next big thing"? India. Maybe Eastern Europe, but doubtful. Russia is probably closer to a civil war (or revolution) than anyone wants to admit, and Iron Curtain or no,
  • by evilviper (135110) on Saturday April 14 2007, @09:16PM (#18737485) Journal
    This is really pointless. From TFA:

    "Despite the Internet being a global network, the US has traditionally dominated."
    Then later:
    "The Internet is still dominated by the United States,"

    In other words... Nothing has changed. Figures indicate Eastern Europe is now up to 1%, compared to the US, and South America is nearing 2%.

    Good to see it happening, but this is statistical static, worthy of a one-sentence mention in the on-screen ticker of whatever stock/business news program you watch... A complete non-story.
    • The good news is that there really isn't a limit to the Internet. I mean I suppose some day we will run in to physical limits on computing power/storage and thus run in to limits as to how much there can eventually be, but for now the net can grow as needed. Other countries having more does not imply the US will have less. In fact, it implies that everyone will have more since we all have access to it.

      It stands to reason that, percentage wise, the US will start falling since it is getting somewhat saturated
    • Well, to borrow a phrase from Churchill, perhaps the news here is not the beginning of the end, but the end of the beginning.
      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        Decline, or hiccup? I think that though graphs are pretty, analysis is a bit poor. So South America and Eastern increased their presence, so? US still dominates big time. Also I noticed that in Poland, one of the top sites is google.pl. It is still US company site. What this analysis lacks is greater insight into those 500 sites. Also 500% sure looks impressive growth, but when you consider, that it all happens in region below 5%, it is just noise. I would like to see how the trends develop, three years tim
  • Internet presense itself isn't a limited commodity, so they can have at it. On the other hand, to the extent that having popular websites corresponds to economic development, this does signal increased competition for both natural resources and geopolitical influence (which, if not zero sum games, are fairly close to it).

    The observation about China's slow internet growth is interesting - maybe their draconion Internet policies are starting to bite. Might this be an early sign of China hitting an economi

    • Might this be an early sign of China hitting an economic glass ceiling imposed by their social policies?

      I'd say it's more an indication that their firewall works both ways.
    • True. But watch out for the national policies that are embodied by new Internet policies. Taxation and censorship are especially sensitive to odd local policies being spotwelded on top of international infrastructure: take a look at the Spamhaus lawsuit in the US for examples of such oddness, and Chinese censorship of Google results with Google cooperation, and AT&T's cooperation in tapping of the very backbones of US Internet traffic without warrants.
  • Yes, there are lots of people out there and some of them are actually getting those derned computing things with a real darned hookup to the InterWeb.

    As the Internet is the ultimate flattener of the earth, there are no surprises here. What's interesting is that many thought that everything from google to ebay would dominate the world's commerce. Well, it did for a while, and naturally (lacking cultural adaptation to specific international markets) they're failing where other sites are now quite culturally a
  • For creating the Internet, and for pushing the globalization to enrich the poor of the world to use it.

    I'm holding the English edition of today's "The Japan Times", where it says: "Global economy best in 30 years".

    We could do a lot better — various illiberals are holding us back — but we are still doing pretty well.

    • "Global economy best in 30 years"


      i wonder how they measure that, because the middle class is eroding at an exponential rate, and real housing prices have now exceeded by a wide magin the realistic income of most americans.
      • It was "global" economy, not "American" economy.

        The rest of the world is getting to be a lot better off as the comparatively weathly Americans come down a peg or two. Americans aren't saddled with 50-70% tax rates like much of the rest of the world. Americans aren't working in sweatshop conditions with the legal system of the country standing firmly behind the overseers.

        But America is having its economy turned into one where only the highly intelligent knowledge workers have a job. Ordinary jobs requring
        • But America is having its economy turned into one where only the highly intelligent knowledge workers have a job. Ordinary jobs requring ordinary skills will have been moved offshore - a lot today, all soon.

          funny how that's not happening in europe.

          there is no excuse for the continued draining of the american economy into these places. if they want money they should do it themselves, not at the expense of our economy.

          and if you dont believe our legal system is not standing firmly behind the overseers than y

          • You kidding? Pretty much every corporation here is pushing jobs eastwards. Romania is the new land of the gold rush for our companies, with cheap labour, an ok stability and a legal system that gives you pretty much the green light for anything you might want to do.

            Our companies just started shipping jobs away, but that doesn't mean they don't do it, it only means that they're (as usual) about 5-10 years behind the US.
              • Actually, governments here become more and more US'y. More power to corporations, less to the people. Free transfer of money, breaking down of borders, less protection for workers, less money for those actually doing the work.

                The catchphrase for it all is to be "competitive" on the global market and protection of work places here which would be lost if we don't lower our standards to match east europe and asia. What I fail to see is how a work place in a sweatshop should be worthy of protection.
          • There is no such thing as job security unless maybe your self employeed.. and even then you are at the whim of the market for your goods and services.

            Since your in such an optimistic frame of mind, let me tell you something. That you worked hard and went to school, is admirable. That others may have just worked and not went to school is also admirable.. but neither road is a guarantee of anything. This is a fact of life, no matter what your degree was in. I have known lawyers that were unemployed.. I have

          • and if you dont believe our legal system is not standing firmly behind the overseers than youve had your head in the sand for decades.

            America has minimum wage, welfare, free education, all sorts of safety nets, and favourable employment laws. American kids are not forced to work 100 hours a week to pay off their parents' debts.

            I worked my ass off and now im facing absolutely zero job security and an ever shrinking job market after investing more than most of these offshore workers will make in a lifetime in

      • and real housing prices have now exceeded by a wide magin the realistic income of most americans.
        Housing affordability is better now than 25 years ago. The biggest problem is that most middle class Americans have decided to carry more debt which makes purchasing a home harder.
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          Housing affordability is better now than 25 years ago. The biggest problem is that most middle class Americans have decided to carry more debt which makes purchasing a home harder.

          what propaganda have you been reading?

          inflation adjusted housing price indices graphed for the last hundred years. [eclectecon.com]

          you have it wrong.. most middle class americans are seeing their wages fail to adjust upward to meet inflation due to h1b's and offshoring, and are being forced to run up their home equity like credit cards to maintain

          • Indeed.

            I'm looking at buying a home with my soon-to-be wife. The only houses that are even close to being affordable in the region [wikipedia.org] are those that have serious structural problems and need a decent amount of work. Even with an FHA loan, we're going to have a hard time making payments along with our student loans.

            I recently read that in the 20s and 30s home loans usually had a 5 year term. Of course, now anything less than a 15-year term is rare with 30 and even 50-year mortgages becoming common. I'll be damned if I'm going to be paying on my house when I'm retired. But then again, at this rate I probably won't be retired when I'm in my mid-70s.

            It is no laughing matter that our standard of living is falling and no one seems to give a damn.
          • inflation adjusted housing price indices graphed for the last hundred years.

            That chart ignores the effect of mortgage rate changes and wage growth (though admittedly small recently) on affordability [frbsf.org].

            you have it wrong.. most middle class americans are seeing their wages fail to adjust upward to meet inflation due to h1b's and offshoring, and are being forced to run up their home equity like credit cards to maintain their current standard of living.

            Wages have been stagnant when inflation adjusted. People h

            • the whole point of the index is to measure median housing price as a percentage of median income.

              therefore it by its nature takes income into account.

              mortgage rate changes mean absolutely nothing in the long run because mortgage interest is tax deductible.

              I dont live in cali or the northeast, i live in the atlanta metropolitan area, and housing prices have tripled in the last decade around here. have wages tripled?
  • Of course Eastern Europe is making a better showing now! Now that the American versions are being forced off the interbutts, people are turning to our Russkie friends: crackz.ru, serialz.ru, and ALLOFFRIGGINMP3.COM.
    • Let's flip the medal over and see the malware and phishing servers, and you get to see what the "freedom" there can be abused for, too.

      For the very same reason why crack and IP-ignoring sites spring up in Russia and its former other Soviet Republics: Police has better and more important things to handle first before trying to crack down on criminals that don't do any damage to the local commerce.

      Then again, if they did actually bother finding them, I'd prolly be down a job.
  • FTS: A new study shows that presence of the US, Asia, and Western European countries on the web is strongly declining.

    No it's not, the % of total traffic that goes to these countries is declining. Harrison's page says nothing about the total amount of traffic over the period examined, so it's entirely possible that the absolute amount of traffic to these sites has risen.

    Harrison's 'research', or at least the presentation thereof, stinks. He's playing with percentages to make the change seem more dramatic. T
  • by Chrios (514186) on Sunday April 15 2007, @10:25AM (#18741485)
    I am the author of the linked page and have enjoyed reading your comments. I have made an addendum that addresses a number of your points:

    "It should be noted that these trends are only based on the rank of top 500 most visited websites. While providing a good snapshot of web activity, the data does not necessarily scale to the entire web. However, it does provide a reliable measure for sites that are utilized by a broad spectrum of the population, such as search engines or news providers. These, in turn, provide a fairly accurate measure of how connected a country is.

    Also, this analysis is only looking at rank movement and not web traffic. This was purposeful. Web dominance is an effect of top sites jostling - these are the big players that can exert the most political and social influence. The pure number of websites is less interesting, as it is more of an effect of the economy (i.e. when money is flowing, people setup websites for personal and small business use). Additionally, indications are that traffic is growing across the board. Thus, the trends noted here are most likely from new countries growing faster than old players."

    Basically, it doesn't matter how many websites you have, it's how many important websites you have. If the US, Asia and Western Europe loose their dominance in the top 500, they will have no leg to stand on when trying to wrangle the internet and its politics. You can already see the international community starting to put pressure on the US to open the net. It is clear that pressure is only going to increase as US dominance erodes.

    Also, I want to reiterate how fast this is happening. In July 2004, US, Asian, and Western European domains controlled 96% of 500 top websites! By January 2007 (just two and a half years later), that number has dropped to below 80%. And, this trend seems to be accelerating.

    Chris Harrison
    • Most prostitutes even here on the streets are from the Ukraine, so you can be sure that online, without the problem to come into the country first of all, it's even easier.

      Face it, we lost the porn sector long, long time ago.
    • by smallfries (601545) on Sunday April 15 2007, @06:45AM (#18740281) Homepage
      It is not really suprising that statistics can be made to say anything that you want. It would be suprising if the web presence of the US / Europe / Asia was in decline. What could cause this momentous change in direction? Is this a new trend that could change the face of the world as we know it???

      Err, no. It's just some twat pumping traffic to his site. So lets look at what he's done shall we:
            * Traffic is declining to first-world web domains!!!
      No, not true. The relative share of domains in the top-500 has decreased. Overall traffic and numbers of domains are still increasing. Ahh, so what is being measured as a "top-500" site? Obviously we can bias this any way we want. Does it explain anywhere on the site how this measurement is performed.... no.

            * All URL's are geographically based!!!
      No, .com does not imply an American company. So the shift in traffic from generic TLD's to country code TLD's for sites in this mythical "top-500" could be explained by a change in presence. That companies no longer want a generic TLD for a "global presence" and instead want a national image. That would be an interesting explanation of the "data", but no, lets go for a screaming headline to pump up traffic in our slashvertisment.

            * Believe what I've told you!!!
      We have bold claims about traffic to a wide range of internet domains. There is no description on the site of how the data is gathered. Is this opt-in traffic reporting? Does this guy happen to own a large amount of internet infrastructure? Is it one of the largest benign bot-nets in existence? Or is it the answer behind door D...

      Complete, and utter, bullshit.