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Confidential Microsoft Emails Posted Online
Posted by
CowboyNeal
on Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:10 AM
from the behind-the-curtain dept.
from the behind-the-curtain dept.
dos4who writes "From the class action 'Comes et al. v. Microsoft' suit, some very enlightening internal Microsoft emails are now made public. Emails to and from Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Jim Allchin, etc all make for some mind blowing reading. One of my favorites is from Jim Allchin to Bill Gates, entitled 'losing our way,' in which Allchin states 'I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft.'"
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2001 (Score:5, Funny)
Re:2001 (Score:5, Informative)
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One of my favorites (Score:5, Interesting)
"Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language."
Re:One of my favorites (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:One of my favorites (Score:5, Interesting)
It was written the the Visual J++ Product Manager.
This speaks volumes to the company's strategy.
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Re:One of my favorites (Score:5, Informative)
From the links:
A program manager "[l]eads the technical side of a product development team, managing and defining the functional specifications and defining how the product will work." These PMs are, as you intimate, a dime a dozen at microsoft.
A product manager "[f]ormulates business and marketing strategy." These PMs have a lot of authority and make decisions at a much higher level.
Just compare the description of a product manager [microsoft.com] compared to that of a program manager [microsoft.com].
There are a 110 product manager job openings at MSFT compared to 365 program manager openings.
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Context is important (Score:5, Interesting)
As an EDSer, I've seen plenty of my former colleagues take a "screw EDS" view in their new companies... they were dissatisfied with aspects of business and how they were managed (sometimes justifiably, sometimes not so much); until they became just as disafected by their new employers, they were considerably hostile in words and action, at times, to their old employer.
Given that they were involved with J++, discussing a cross-platform mandate (big with Slashdotters, but not even a blip on the radar screen with 99% of Microsoft's customer base), and the context of the discussion involved co-opting lessons learned and design imperitives (not really the product itself), this discussion was not exactly the smoking gun you guys would like it to be.
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Re:Context. (Score:5, Interesting)
There is a point of diminishing returns, where MOST consumers simply don't want an all-in-one device, for example, or simply don't care to have a spreadsheet work in Linux and Windows. People just want to turn on a computer and USE it. They want to turn on a DVR and USE it. They want to dial a number and USE it. Inter-operability, multi-functionality, cross-platform code... all results in more complexity, and usually a "Jack of all trades, master of none" device. This is also known as the "lowest common denominator".
Exactly. They just want to be able to buy a DVR and hook it up to their existing television and use it, without worrying about ensuring they're the same brand or dealing with masses of different, subtly incompatible, non-standard products. What's more, most of the time they can. (It's odd how incompatibilty, lack of standardization, and the resulting inconveniences, monocultures and near-monopolies are so widespread in software, when people wouldn't stand for it elsewhere.)
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Re:broken legal system (Score:5, Insightful)
These aren't "illegal leaks" - they're evidence that has been made public - and rightfully so - because justice must not only be done, but seen to be done. Don't expect to be able to keep illegal anti-competitive activities secret because of some non-existent "corporate right to privacy."
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Re:broken legal system (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:broken legal system (Score:5, Informative)
It was originally attorneys-only.
Subsequent litigation .... different case .... documents admitted into evidence .... court ruled they can be made public in this instance.
Its the same as the original AT&T / BSD agreement. It *was* secret, but the world has changed, its no longer secret ...
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Re:But corporations are people too! (Score:5, Informative)
The "right to privacy" doesn't extend to evidence admitted in open court.
This is necessary to uphold the integrity of the courts. Otherwise, people won't know the basis on which a finding of guilt or innocence was made, leading to all sorts of accusations of favoritism and backroom deals, bribes, etc.
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BullSh*t (Score:5, Informative)
Giving corporations HUMAN rights is completely messed up. They should enjoy the same rights as any group of people, but they should never be given human rights. Microsoft is allowed to have internal documents that it can protect. But when these documents are demanded by a court, the court can allow the documents to be made public. The judge has allowed Roxanne Connlin to release all of these documents on the website. Microsoft has petitioned to keep some documents out of the public domain, and these documents are not on the site.
Curiously, this is the first time that Bill Gates testimony to the DOJ is viewable by the public. This case is shining a great deal of light on Microsoft business practices.
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Re:broken legal system (Score:5, Informative)
No leaks at all.
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Email (Score:5, Funny)
It just goes to say that (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:It just goes to say that (Score:5, Funny)
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Groklaw coverage (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Groklaw coverage (Score:4, Interesting)
Which is hilarious in itself :)
Quote:
2-and-a-half years later, Windows Vista has turned into a phenomenal product, better than any other OS we've ever built and far, far better than any other software available today, in my opinion. It's going to be available to customers on Jan 30, and I suggest everyone go out and get it as soon as you can. It's that good.Next thing he says is:
The spirit of being self-critical continues to flourish at Microsoft.
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Re:Groklaw coverage (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Groklaw coverage (Score:5, Informative)
Try this: http://web.archive.org/web/20041205152641/www.appl e.com/ilife/video/ilife04_320.html [archive.org]
Embarrassing stuff.
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Re:Groklaw coverage (Score:4, Insightful)
including a clarification from Allchin on that 'I'd buy a Mac' quote.
Where I live we don't call that clarification, we call that spin.
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Clarification and Implications. (Score:5, Interesting)
Nothing could be more clear than the intention of the rant, so I'll type it here for those too lazy to click the link. It deserves the space.
-Jim Allchin, January 07 2004
It's obvious they did not listen to him and that's good for everyone. Vista is 10 GB in size and wastes all sorts of processing power for it's DRM insanity, after they dropped their silly new file system and many other vaporware improvements. While it will be difficult if not impossible to make Vista work under Linux or Mac, it's not going to matter because Vista is going to kill the platform. The failure of Vista, more than the failure of Zune and Xbox shows that M$ is going to have to compete on something other than, "It's M$ and you are going to need them tomorrow no matter how crappy their stuff is."
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HAHAHA (Score:5, Insightful)
Classic stuff.
Coral Cache (Score:4, Informative)
Losing our way? (Score:4, Insightful)
Now this gets me thinking, because we in FLOSS care a lot about security and performance, but not too much about the end users experience and the applications that are important to them. We all know how Apple just Gets It(tm) and we should, too, if we ever want to expand our installed base and market share beyond geeks and tech savvy users.
Re:Losing our way? (Score:5, Interesting)
Netscape was better up until around Netscape 4, when it turned into a clunky, steaming pile, and IE actually became the better, smoother, more enjoyable browser for a while. Today, Firefox is better.
After Corel bought Quattro Pro and WordPerfect, they turned into steaming piles. I know... I worked there. :-) I think around WordPerfect 9, there was a latency in your typing that made it feel like a telnet session. And it crashed a lot. Excel and Word crash too, but generally, they've always been consistently solid, enjoyable products that get the job done.
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Very Interesting -- Tux Looms Large! Who Knew? (Score:4, Interesting)
The Linux Strategy???
Since we now know that Microsoft is willing (nay, obsessed) to go "to the mat", as it were, the Linux strategy should be to exploit this tendancy as often as possible. If it happens often enough, either it will become an un-tenable situation for Microsoft, wherein after Microsoft will no longer be able to make any kind of TCO statements regarding Linux vs. Microsoft; and/or else they will go broke in all these no-profit deals (okay, admittedly, it will take them awhile to go broke... but it could happen!
If nothing else, these documents reveal _very_ publically (what many of us already knew) that Microsoft is scared SHITLESS of Linux.
Why should the market leader (a monopolistic, strong-arming, dirty-tricks, no-holds-barred leader at that!) be scared of a FREE operating system and open-source applications-- unless they can see that their dominant position is deeply threatened?
Maybe Balmer will throw some more chairs at somebody. Better be prepared to duck fast.
I wonder what business Microsoft will get into after computers, software and IT?
Re:Very Interesting -- Tux Looms Large! Who Knew? (Score:5, Interesting)
Given that the youth of America have been brought up on MS products, they're going to have a stronger attachement to them than those of us who were brought up on Commodores, Amigas, and Apples. MS *clearly* knows this. Think about that.
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Wishful Thinking (Score:5, Interesting)
This is because the promise of Linux has been wasted by the lack of production of true killer applications, allowing both Microsoft and Apple to further embed their OS's among their faithful.
New systems shipping with Vista are sticking a finger in the Penguin's eye, because when it comes down to it, its all about the apps.
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Re:Wishful Thinking (Score:5, Insightful)
I remember sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for Linux's world domination, but I don't think that that was ever its promise. The whole concept of the "killer application", IMHO, runs contrary to the Linux way of doing things. In fact, the more obviously useful a "Linux" app tends to be to large numbers of people, the more likely you are to see Windows and OS X ports.
Linux let users run whatever machine they could get their hands on and have a stable, supported (as in patched and secure) system that would run current apps while the Mac and Windows worlds had people running to the store to replace perfectly good machines. Schools in under-funded districts and governments in poor countries slowly discover that proprietary software vendors hold them over a barrel while FLOSS just gives and gives. These aren't strategies that get you ahead by the next fiscal quarter, but they get you ahead of where you were four or five years ago.
MSFT and Apple fight for their share of consumers (and MSFT pretty much takes the business world for granted) while the FLOSS world makes sure to keep doing what they're doing and their share of developers, enterprise users, and savvy home users expands slowly but steadily. Linux isn't out to get people to come on board because it's got something you'll be deprived of if you don't, and it isn't out to attack or exploit how the other guys slip up. Hell, Linux isn't marching lock-step towards any single goal - it's fragmented, huge numbers of disparate groups and individuals working towards different ends, which Linus has said is exactly what he likes to see. Linux developers achieve a means to an end, polish up the rough edges when they've got something that's going to be around for a while and the users demand it, and let you get off the roller coaster of everyone else deciding what latest and greatest features you just have to have. You want Linux? Here it is. You want to wait a few years for it to improve some more? It will, and it will still be yours for the asking. [insert stream vs. boulder or similar Taoist metaphor]
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Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
1. When you typed this posted at least a few linux boxes where involved in storing, sorting
and displaying your drivel.
2. I bet you probably even do a few google searches per day, there you go again 100,000 linux boxes
faithfully answer your request at lightning speed.
3. Go to work and half the printers there probably have embedded linux.
4. You are probably posting using your wireless router again running linux.
5. Watching your dvr or tivo today, again linux.
6. Go to the movies and watching CG animation again rendered on linux.
7. Request a web page, probably linux dns server answering that request.
8. Check your email, again probably linux or routed through linux boxes somewhere.
9. Wipe your ass, some embedded controller at the paper mill running linux made that happen.
10. Picking your nose... well ok linux probably had nothing to do with that but that is what the
parent had to be doing when authoring that post.
Linux touches your life everyday and does so without
being noticed...now that is the killer app!
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Re:Very Interesting -- Tux Looms Large! Who Knew? (Score:4, Insightful)
I knew people who were making a decent living doing computer consulting for home users who went out of business because of how many 15 year old neighbours could do most of what they do for free.
That one line has got to be the best advertisement/endorsement for Linux and open source software that I've seen in a long time. If you are truly not trolling, think of how powerful that statement is: "Linux: even your neighbor's 15-year-old kid can maintain it." We should welcome software that is that easy to use and maintain, not lament it's arrival .
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"losing our way" was referring to WinFS (Score:5, Informative)
The "scenario" stuff is probably related to this topic also, but I don't know enough about the culture inside of Microsoft to say how.
Microsoft brand FUD (Score:5, Informative)
From exhibit PX 851, a memo from bradsi to billg and steveb (among others) regarding alleged "bugs" in DR DOS as found by Microsoft commissioned NSTL:
"We are engaged in a FUD campaign to let the press know about some of the bugs. We'll provide info a few bugs at a time to stretch it out."
Ahhhh...Microsoft(r) Time-Released FUD(tm). Gotta love it.
I don't know why (Score:4, Funny)
FUD is a corporate value. (from 91) (Score:5, Interesting)
We are engaged in a FUD campaign to let the press know about some of the bugs.
We'll provide info a few bugs at a time to stretch it out
the proof is in the pudding [iowaconsumercase.org]
What a bunch of Wing Nuts. (Score:5, Informative)
Not even the rhetoric from a "Women's study" class can prepare the reader for the contents of those letters. All the diabolical "power" talk is like a script from a bad movie. Start anywhere and you get there fast. They really are sick.
The first thing I looked at had this nonsense: [iowaconsumercase.org]
You might recall later evidence from the Novel DR-DOS lawsuit, where Microsoft later killed DR-DOS off by making Win3.1 not work with it and then blaming DR-DOS in BBS postings. Nice.
The next thing seems to indicate witness tampering [iowaconsumercase.org] in the same power struggle.
The next random look [iowaconsumercase.org] has more opinion manipulation trough astroturf:
And it goes on and on. The targets today are the ones that survived, IBM, Novel, and friends but now include the free software that everyone but M$ has agreed to use because it's better. Instead of fudding BBS, they are here and in the newspapers and TV networks they purchased for the purpose. If these dorks spent half the time wasted on improving their product, they might have a product that works. Instead, they have focused on marketing, "power" and other crap that's ended in DRM [slashdot.org] and botnet hell. No one should trust M$ for anything and everything they touch is suspect.
What I don't get (Score:5, Funny)
I mean, his chin isn't particulary prominent at all.
Microsoft Confidential (Score:5, Interesting)
I always enjoy seeing proprietary markings on a company's documents. It makes finding them with a search engine much easier. Other fun search terms:
site:microsoft.com "Microsoft Internal Use Only"
site:microsoft.com "Internal Use Only"
site:microsoft.com NDA
Re:Non-PDF? (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Non-PDF? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Non-PDF? (Score:4, Funny)
If it's just a matter of hating Adobe Reader, there are free open-source alternatives out there.
What did you hear?
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Re:Non-PDF? (Score:5, Insightful)
I can agree that the Adobe Reader software sucks. But, there are many, many PDF readers available that work just fine without the Adobe nonsense, but still give you access to one of the nicest document formats available.
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Re:Non-PDF? (Score:5, Insightful)
See this: http://arstechnica.com/reviews/1q00/macos-x-gui/m
This was the natural extrapolation from DPS - display PostScript - used on the NeXT and original SunOS NeWS.
There is a difference between crappy rendering implementation and crappy model.
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Allchin...? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:In communist Russia... (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:In communist Russia... (Score:5, Funny)
No. Please don't.
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Re:/. bias (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:/. bias (Score:5, Interesting)
So what? Competition often involves duplicating or emulating a competitor's efforts, particularly when there aren't many ways to solve a particular problem. The entire patent and copyright systems in the U.S. were once geared toward encouraging the creation of new ideas and products, with the intent that they would eventually become the property of everyone. Consumers benefit when good product ideas are promulgated throughout an entire industry. Frankly, I'd like to see Microsoft steal more of the good stuff from other operating systems rather than simply ladling in more DRM and SFX.
The fact that Microsoft isn't innovative is largely irrelevant when deciding if they are a good company or not, if you define innovative as meaning the development of novel products in-house. Many companies acquire technology originally developed outside the confines of their own organization. Is Google a bad company because they bought YouTube? Is Apple a bad company simply because they used some ideas originally developed by PARC? Windows NT (and all derivative OSes) benefited from technology originally developed by DEC and taken to Microsoft by Dave Cutler and his people. This idea that a company is somehow defective because it doesn't do everything on its own is a bit off-base. The fact that Microsoft point-blank steals a lot of technology, denies that fact, and the refuses to pay the originators is more to the point, however.
People spend a lot of time complaining about the unoriginality of Microsoft's products. Who cares? Graphical operating system technology is becoming fairly mature and commoditized at this point, as a matter of fact most users don't particularly want novelty anymore
For example, I don't want my socket set working differently every few months, I want the damn things to do their jobs in a consistent manner. Yet, once I did buy a new set because the handle had some kind of gearing that gave a mechanical advantage
In the end, this has less to do with the originality of the ideas that Microsoft turns into products as it does with the quality of those implementations. By taking the comparatively poor quality of the products that Microsoft has sold over the years in concert with the equally-poor ethical (indeed, outright criminal) standards upon which that company operates
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