Intel Developing New Chip Designs in India 306
An anonymous person noted that "Intel Corporation, the $39-billion largest chip maker in the world, is developing new chip designs and processors at its India development centre to roll out the next generation of notebooks and servers, says a top company official."
Work Visa (Score:4, Funny)
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In India, a few categories of business expense reimbursements (called "fringe benefits" under the India Tax law) paid by employer to employee are tax exempt. These include things like business related travel expenses, costs associated with having a telephone at home, conveyance, and over-the-counter medicine, house rent etc. Each category has an amount limit, but more importantly, they employee is supposed to submit receipts of these expenses to the employer
Re:Work Visa (Score:5, Insightful)
You have to understand no one has ever seen free trade before. Assuming it ever existed, that must have been a long time ago. Today there are taxes, tariffs, government-granted monopolies, and government regulation, which are all contrary to Free (as in freedom) trade.
So the problem isn't the free market, it's two things: First, it's not really a free market; and second, the fact that we had even less free trade for a long, long time means that there will be a period of settling out that, yes, will likely be disastrous for the US. Our economy is based on trade not being Free, because it has been that way for generations. The longer a flawed system is perpetuated, the longer it takes to correct the situation.
Add to the top of this situation the fact that the US has put a lot of effort into keeping other nations down, and you have a serious problem for this country. If those nations had been allowed to grow, they might not be such a threat today; but because people there have nothing, they will work for little more than nothing...
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Good point, first of all. But secondly- if a system has worke
Re:Work Visa (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, keep in mind that IANAEconomist but it's not that it's suddenly flawed, it's always been flawed. The flaw is that it creates artificial imbalances which cannot be perpetuated indefinitely.
There are two reasons for this. One is simply that differentials are where the greatest energy exists. You can see this principle of nature at work everywhere you look. Energy has the property that it affects things, which I realize is an understatement but is part of the logical flow of this conversation... But anyway, what I mean by this is that there will constantly be forces working against it, so that it takes a great deal of effort to maintain it. That effort typically takes the form of regulation - but one of the effects of regulation is that it always creates imbalances of its own, which leads to more regulation. It's a self-perpetuating system, which is why trying to change the system from within is typically fruitless. Just in order to enter the system, you become a part of it. The other reason is that if we really did successfully wall ourselves in, then the rest of the world would just find a way to function without us. This is pretty much what's happening now - e.g. China's currency is no longer based on ours.
So basically, it was a doomed system from the beginning - this doesn't mean it wasn't useful then, it allowed us unparalleled economic growth. But it should have been abandoned when it was no longer useful and started to work against us, and it was not discarded only because certain individuals in power could profit from the status quo.
The attitude that you can get everything you want without helping others is a ridiculous one. The more you have, and the less others have, the more motivated they are to take away what you have. If you help yourself by helping others, then there is little reason for them to try to deprive you of anything. This has never been proven on a global scale because it has never been tried on a global scale.
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And where is our evidence for that? If the artificial *balances* have been balanced enough to work for generations, what makes them *unbalanced* now?
There are two reasons for this. One is simply that differentials are where the greatest energy exists. You can see this principle of nature at work everywhere you l
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Two reasons: One, we're human. We want more than what we need. Two, there are external forces. Others will come into your territory, etc.
There's no reason not to have more than what you need. There is reason not to have more than the planet to sustain. So I Guess there could be a reason - if we're over our carrying capacity. But then the only solution
Re:Work Visa (Score:5, Interesting)
lets thank all our elected republicans for helping out the middle class families out there /end sarcasm. .|..
Traditionally, Republicans have been protectionist. Free-trade Republicans are a new breed. There are also free-trade Democrats.
This is a good thing.
goodbye american jobs
Not true. Granted, if an Indian engineer can design a circuit for $15 an hour and an American won't work for less than $50, the American is going to lose his job to the Indian.
However, free trade also creates jobs, especially in my home state of Wisconsin. With tariffs and other protections removed that make offsourcing and exporting possible, our dairy industry now sells a great deal overseas. This is especially true for the smaller farmers - they didn't have the infrastructure the corporate farms did to effectively deal with trade barriers; now, they have a market to sell to that they didn't before.
Trade works both ways. American engineers may lose jobs in the short run, but everyone who uses a computer will benefit from cheaper microprocessor prices. European farmers may lose jobs, but the EU gets cheaper milk. Although it sure sucks to be the Engineer, the offshoring, in effect, made the rest of the world richer - if everything costs less, you can buy more than you could before, even though you don't make any more money.
Free trade isn't as simple as "goodbye American jobs" - it's a choice between protecting a few industries or seeing a widespread reduction in the price of, well, everything.
Re:Work Visa (Score:4, Interesting)
This seems to me to be a huge negative from a few different angles.
1. Energy usage- is it really a good thing to be selling parishable dairy products a half a world away at all, essentially creating huge multinational corporations, where millions of local dairies served before and created a fresher product for the mere reason that it didn't have to travel hundreds or thousands of miles to get to you?
2. If we're selling dairy overseas, what is happening to local dairies overseas? Are they losing their market to US Government subsidised dairy products?
3. And what happens to those overseas dairy farmers? Do they end up coming here to compete with us for land and resources (by coming here illegally, as the Oxacan Chicano Indians did when the same thing happened in Mexico) or by committing suicide (as farmers in India are doing)?
None of this seems very positive to me.
Processors (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Processors (Score:4, Insightful)
Well actually, I think they are just laying the ground work for future Indian companies that will compete with them in the processor sector. I'm not saying that this is bad, just that Intel, and others, are not going to be able to leverage low wages indefinitely and they may well be opening the vault of their family jewels. Someday in the not too distant future, the PC may have Ganges Inside!
Project Code Name (Score:5, Funny)
Vindaloo
Is it really for cost savings? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Is it really for cost savings? (Score:5, Insightful)
I would thus speculate that Intel are seeking to gain some sort of political foothold in the huge developing market in India and the region.
haven't Intel also done some deals to set up design centres in China to also gain political leverage and fast-track approvals for their products there?
Re:Is it really for cost savings? (Score:5, Informative)
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Don't get me wrong. I live in Israel, and I have nothing against seeing some of this money staying here. It's just that, putting on American goggles, I don't see how it makes any difference where money not spent in the US is spent. Is it that Israel is already a "R&D center", and therefor not a "new threat"?
Shachar
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Israel has a high standard of living in the ballpark of European and North American nations. Opening up a development plant in Israel, or Germany, or Ireland is not thought of as "outsourcing" because there is not a (significant) cost savings versus American employees, it's simply a matter of going to where the talent is. Outsourcing to India or China, on the other hand, is seen as a pure cost move because of those nations' considerable cost diff
I bet the Blue Guys are happy about this... (Score:4, Interesting)
The TFA is more accurate (Score:5, Informative)
TFA clearly says
"is working on new chipsets for the small form-factor notebook ...Validation work on server processors 5300 and 7100"
As much as I'd love India to lose the cheap indian labour [dotgnu.info] tag and actually find its place in the R&D world - this could be summed up as premature ejaculation. Validation work (aka quality assurance) is not really what I'd consider worthy of mention, but chipsets are indeed a step forward - if indeed they are being designed here, not merely run through QA.
People here are comparitively cheap, but that does not automatically mean that "You get what you pay for", unless you do shop around for a bargain.
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Re:The TFA is more accurate (Score:4, Interesting)
fer'ners (Score:4, Interesting)
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CPU design goals (Score:2)
There is a number of things that would be much better if the CPU supported some special instruction. Every OS class student has been tought this.
Unluckily, most of the new features will certainly be focused on DRM and other copyright enforcement technology!
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Such as? Users get the virtualization instruction and SSE3. Do you have more special instructions in mind?
-matthew
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More effective paging and virtual memory support?
Better SMP onchip support?
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I was taught that special instructions were a waste of time as 95% percent of the chips time was spent on the simplist operations such as load/store, logic and simple arithmetic. Hence the RISC chipset.
Perhaps the situation has changed now that compilers are a little more sophisticated. I say a little. SIMD is nice for intensive applications like encoders and numbe
No sure why this is news... (Score:2, Insightful)
That Intel (Score:3, Funny)
This is only going to continue... (Score:2, Insightful)
These Trade Agreements need to be looked at again and readjusted into Fair Trade Agreements. These need to be setup to provide some sort of protections for the foreign workers and demand an equal or better environmental protection system, similar to what the US has.
Putting both of those as requirements for "Fr
Re:This is only going to continue... (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, I agree with you. What you propose (Fair Trade vs. Free Trade) is what the European Union has done. There are very specific criteria for membership; items such as worker and environmental protections are included. Here's the wikipedia entry on the criteria - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_criteria [wikipedia.org].
Unfortunately, the US has embraced the "Race to the Bottom" approach and we now can see the results. Globalization is a mixed blessing; on the one hand it does raise GDP for participating nations, but on the other hand, it can have serious repercussions. Of course, I'm expecting to be flamed and modded down now for attempting to be truly "fair and balanced".
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OTOH, "fair" trade isn't necessarily a good idea for the people it supposedly helps. Part of the reason the developing world gets so many jobs is because the labor there is cheap. They don't have the infrastructure, they aren't particularly close to the big developed world markets, and their legal systems can be quite messed up. So they often don't have much to attract a business. IMHO, they often get work only because they can work in sweat shops and be exploited as cheap labor. Fair trade is a great deal
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The problem is that in the developing world there is a massive rift between those that have and those that don't have.
This has created a system, wherein the Haves easily and consistantly take advantage of and hold down the aspirations of the Have Not. By forcing the Haves into providing more equity to the Have Nots, two things will happen. One, working conditions and compensation will increase for the works. Two, more equitable trade agreements will be for
A problem that won't be fixed overnight... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem we have now is that fewer people are going into technical fields. We're a nation of CEOs, project managers, liaisons, coordinators, and other non-technical people. I've noticed a lot of people in the tech field encouraging their kids not to pursue any sort of science or engineering education. That's not a shocker. First of all, going to law school or getting an MBA guarantees you a lifetime of high income. Scientists/engineers are begging for jobs, and IT types are not finding as many entry-level positions that would get them entry into the field. Second, if you do decide to pursue something technical, the jobs are not guaranteed to be there. Why beat yourself up going for an engineering degree if someone on the other side of the world will work cheaper and do a better job than you could?
Also, the work ethic and education standard in other countries is much higher. I've worked with Indian outsourcing firms, and they make up for their lack of understanding of the problem with 14 hour work days and no complaints about how low their pay is. Compare that to workers in the US, who waste their whole day grumbling about their pay and are completely lazy.
Honestly, I don't know how to fix this. If we could somehow ensure that there would still be work available for those of us who like doing technical stuff, that would help.
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Also, working 14 hour days doesn't mean they're not lazy. It just means they work 14 hour days. You can pack a lot of goofing-off time into 14 hours.
Whoa there! (Score:2)
Hang on there! Sure, this is why Indian labor is competitive with US labor-- but you make it sound like the US is just a bunch of lazy fatcats. I'm not an economist, but US productivity has been on the rise for a long ti
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Re:A problem that won't be fixed overnight... (Score:4, Insightful)
You must be a manager. Do you honestly want to work 14 hours a day for most of you waking life? I don't. Any sane person who want's some kind of life outside work doesn't either.
"Compare that to workers in the US, who waste their whole day grumbling about their pay and are completely lazy."
No, workers in the US just want a higher standard of living where they work to live, not live to work. The crazy ass-tastic practices the desperate people or crazy workaholic cultures around the globe that business people love fail to see the consequences of working too much.
This pro-workaholic attitude is part and parcel of the reason of why so many peoples lives are go down the shitter in depression, suicide and worse. More homework, more time in school, more time at work, etc, etc.
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> problem when you call a customer support line outsourced
> to India and it takes 14 hours on the phone to get your
> issue solved.
This is more a problem with the company in question rather then Indians. For example I was taught by an Indian in India (via internet) for my SCJP1.4 exam (Whizlabs). The guy knew his stuff inside and out and was an exceptional teacher. By the same regards we have Indian SW engineers working with us in India a
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I would like to add that this is not limited to outsourcing to foreign agencies. I used to work in tech support for one of the major PC manufacturers (not Dell) in a call center populated with some of the brightest and most ethical individuals. We were paid well, had great benefits (3 weeks of vacation time) and loved our jobs and our customers.
We had o
And when they outsource _management_ to India... (Score:2, Insightful)
India has dozens of http://www.indianmba.com/Top_B-Schools/top_b-schoo ls.html [indianmba.com] and it seems likely that at least some of them are able to teach students how to pigeonhole things as dogs, stars, problem childs, and cash cows... or whatever it is that MBAs are taught how to do.
It also seems likely that Indian MBAs on site are at least as capable of managing colleagues as U. S. MBAs a satellite-link away.
And once management is in India, why shouldn't the CEO be there,
Priorities (Score:2, Funny)
India = Death of Intel (Score:2)
I'll never buy another Intel Processor again! I encourage all of you to do the same.
Well, you surely aren't going to purchase AMD (Score:2)
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extremely well.
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1) still has the black death
2) incredible amount of people sleeping on the streets.
3) incredible amount of dead people on the street every morning.
4) draconian religous laws.
5)no protection for the citizens.
here the first 5 reason why I don't like india, and will never go there.
Note, this is about India, not the people from there. Most of the ones I have worked with are bright and work hard during there shift.
I also note that they have been educated in the US.
Sign of weakness? (Score:4, Interesting)
Now, there can be reasons for that. The American car makers are crashing because they should have fired their engineering staffs a couple of decades ago and simply started over. But has Intel really reached a similar point?
Intel's chip technology is strong... (Score:2)
80286 segmentation was at least partly informed by the design of PL/1 and Pascal.
iApx432 was the super-CISC designed to deal with object-orientation at the hardware level.
i860 needed advanced compiler technology that was still
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And cue outsourcing outrage in 3...2...1... (Score:2)
$39 billion? (Score:2)
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Checking My Memory (Score:2)
Did anyone REALLY not see this coming? (Score:2)
This is a clear argument that corporations should not be given legal advantages in excess of the net benefits they provide, but that was reasonably clear already. (I coun
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Should businesses just throw in the towel and become charities for people who need jobs? Sounds like a great long-term plan, eh?
Yes (Score:2)
If businesses want to survive in America they need to give to America.
Otherwise, get out completely, and let us build companies to make products for us by us.
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Why don't you make the first move? Choose the most needy company/person when making your purchasing decisions.
Already done, pal (Score:2)
Next?
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But hey, when the economy totally collapses because we didn't subsidize poor business models, I'll let you watch me cry.
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And no one but you is going to be pointing and laughing at people for supporting their own country. But plenty of people are pointing and shaking their heads at you and your "profits over people" mentality. There's no future in that. There's short term gain, but no future.
Remember, you have to live in the country whose workers are impoverished. But when the impoverishment gets bad enough, of course, you'll move. That's your loyalt
UbuntuDupe is too scared to criticize (Score:2)
But what will he say when underpaid CEOs in India take the jobs of overpaid CEOs in the US, as Intel is inevitably undercut by its competition in India (no doubt using stolen IP from Intel)?
Oh, he'll say "that can't happen"
or
"So long, America!"
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"If America loses textile manufacturing, we're doomed!"
"If America loses cotton growing, we're doomed!"
"If America lowers tarrifs, we're doomed!"
"If America loses car manufacturing, we're doomed!"
"If America loses microchip fabrication, we're doomed!"
and finally,
"If America loses computer R&D, we're doomed!"
This time it'll happen, right?
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Nice talking point. When textile manufacturing and all those other industries went away, there was a new industry coming up to replace them.
Now, as computer R&D is going away, and it's taking biotech with it, what new industry is coming along?
None.
Now, let's reiterate your talking point:
Industries come and go, and new ones replace them.
And let us ask you this question that will bring your participation in this discussion to
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Booyah. Get your copyright attorneys ready because I'm stealing that.
The Zookeeper says: (Score:2)
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This may be a failure of the American education system.
So that explains why (Score:2)
Chip designer offshoring was what started first; my first degree was going to be Computer Engineering when there was a slowdown in 1995. I switched to MIS, and so did a lot of other people, as a result of this, not as a precipitation of this.
Here's how it goes:
1) Companies lay off engineers in America and go overseas
2) Engineering students change majors and new students don't take computer engineering as a major
3) Companies hire
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Not entirely true. 90% of America isn't special, but the top 10% need to be supported and nurtured. Ask not what you can do for the middle class, but ask what you can do for the top 2%
Re:Hi, my name is Lizzy Faire! (Score:4, Interesting)
Obviously as you offshore the workers, you end up offshoring the first-line managers next. At some point, it becomes sensible to offshore some second-line managers, and so on. This continues up the chain, until those left see the logical conclusion, circle the wagons, and say, "It doesn't make financial sense to offshore any higher-level jobs." Or course they mean, "financial sense for me" to offshore higher-level jobs.
But by this time, there will be a lot of experience - some of it quite high-level, walking around the streets of India, which another post has suggested has more of a revolving door than Silicon Valley in its heyday. So how long before fully Indian semiconductor companies emerge? They won't have the Intel name, but that isn't as important outside the US and Europe, especially at a much lower price.
Once we've offshored every aspect of technical operation, what's left? Is the corner office really that valuable, especially outside the US?
That's impossible! (Score:2)
Stop being a chicken little and put your head back in the sand!
[neo con parody off]
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People like you amaze me. You live in a country where even the poor can own a fridge, car, TV, etc. yet you still bitch about others being richer than you. The poorest person in your country would be considered middle-class in most of the rest of the world, yet what's important to you is that the mythical 2% "are, like, REALLY rich". I know communism is still alive....I just hate seeing it on our shores. Keep it confined to Cuba.
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A large part of what you call 'standards of living' is actually everything ranging from state military spending through pharmaceutical patent regimes and other 'intellectual property'.
How do you expect a US worker to be able to remain competetive, when you look at what he actually has to finance?
"And unless the American engineer can do the job of 4 or 5 people, he's out of luck."
Yes, well, the trouble is, that engineer probably is doing the job of 4 or 5 people
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There is no game to step up any more.
There's no point in getting a college degree in any technological field because even DOCTORS are vulnerable to tele-surgery.
America is shedding its high tech education base because there's fewer and fewer jobs for high tech educated people.
That m
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One of the major premeses of The Communist Manifesto was that the overproduction caused by industrialization required imperialism, to forcibly open new markets.
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Not to mention, I'd be far more fullfilled in a more visceral culture, free from the distasteful luxuries of bleeding heartisms and general
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Hell, 1/3 of a typical silicon valley engineers salary is a decent living in about 80% of the US (by land area, not by population). You'd be suprised what $50-$60k will get you outside of the insane market-peak areas of the US.
Re:Quality? (Score:4, Insightful)
People are not happy when companies set up shop there so they (damn foreigners) don't have to come here. Obviously, if its not America or American, it has to be inferior. And obviously, why would any talented Indian chose to live and work in India?
All Indians in India are just F class engineers and the good ones are already here. Mind you, we still hate them, but still, we have the best ones.
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This isn't about moving American jobs overseas. The jobs left America ages ago.
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Re:A question many Intel USA Engs will soon be ask (Score:5, Informative)
Ummm...actually, you lose (1 -
But the ones who understand math will be OK. (Score:3, Funny)
I assume that the 55% of the jobs that are lost over that ten year period are the ones held by the engineers who don't understand basic math.
You obviously arent an engineer (Score:2)