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Education Technology

College Libraries Without Books 465

Groo writes to tell us CBS News is reporting that books are a thing of the past at a University of Texas library this fall. The University will be converting the library to a 'social gathering place more akin to a coffeehouse.' This push is done in response to the increasing use of online research as a part of undergraduate studies. According to the article the missing books will be replaced by "colorful overstuffed chairs for lounging, barstools for people watching, and booths for group work. In addition to almost 250 desktop computers, there will be 75 laptops available for checkout, wireless Internet access, computer labs, software suites, a multimedia studio, a computer help desk and repair shop, and a cafe."
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College Libraries Without Books

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  • bad move. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rkohutek ( 122839 ) <randal&weberstreet,net> on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:04AM (#13387300) Homepage Journal
    WOW, all I can say is that it's a shame ... there is nothing like books when it comes to learning; it's not easy to highlight, markup and take notes on a public computer or a loaned out laptop.

    For shame, UT - a bad start onto a dangerous slippery slope.
    • Re:bad move. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by nigham ( 792777 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:09AM (#13387319) Homepage
      I agree completely. What I can't understand is why these facilities have to come at the expense of printed books. You can have all of the computers, lounges, etc. without throwing out the books which remain one of the best methods for intense focused study. How long can you study on your wirelessly enabled computer without checking to see if there's been an update at /.?
      • Re:bad move. (Score:5, Informative)

        by Savage-Rabbit ( 308260 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:30AM (#13387388)
        You can have all of the computers, lounges, etc. without throwing out the books which remain one of the best methods for intense focused study.

        True, for some reason I absoloutely hate to read long texts on a computer screen. It's fine for short PDF files but as soon as I am dealing with a 50+ pages I like having an oldfashioned paper book in my hands rather than sitting in front of a desktop computer or even a laptop which at least is protable. Even computer printouts are inferior to a book since the book will usually be more compact.
        • Tell us why you like how a book feels in your hand. Also tell me why its more important for a book to feel right than to have dozens of books in a PDA?

          I honestly don't like reading from a PDA screen, but its a lot lighter than carrying books around.
          • by eMartin ( 210973 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @06:00AM (#13387624)
            For me, it's more about how to access what I want to read.

            I think the UI would be inferior mainly because flipping through pages with my fingers will always be more convenient than a search box (that needs either a stylus or keyboard to work) or previous/next buttons that go one page at a time.

            A bookmarks UI will either need screen space or an extra step to access, as opposed to just grabbing and flipping the pages. Have you ever held your fingers between pages at a few spots in a book and flipped back and forth?

            How about comparing/referenceing multiple pages from the same or multiple books?

            Also, it's always nice to have a feel for where you are in a book, and I don't think a picture or number can convey that as well as physical pages.

            Sure, it would be nice to have a thin letter sized tablet to carry on the subway for reading, and I think it would certainly add some useful features (automatic updating of news, searching and highlighting, etc), but I can think of many situations where I would be more comfortable with real books.
            • So, you're telling (Score:4, Interesting)

              by hummassa ( 157160 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @07:49AM (#13387934) Homepage Journal
              that grabbing and flipping the pages is not an extra step?
              My anedocte (it's probably the 2nd time I posted this):
              I am a public employee, and I had to pass a rather difficult test to get my job (500 candidates, 5 openings, I was #3). And I studied all of the test's subjects (civil law, constitutional law, legislative process, administrative law) off a Palm III's screen -- translated all texts and codelaw into HTML and plucker'ed them: autoscroll was my friend. With some smart indexing and x-refing. Now, if I was to carry all this with me (I studied a lot while commuting) I would have to carry appoximately 20kg of books, instead of 200g in my pocket. And I obviously have no problem reading from a screen.
              • by Dr. Evil ( 3501 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @09:18AM (#13388442)

                I finished my degree while taking public transit to work. I read one book at a time and took notes of what I needed to cross-reference when I got home.

                Paper I think is just a holdover from generations who have learned from paper. It's still superior in many ways than electronic text. Those who are used to paper are used to learning without being able to instantly cross-reference an enormous library, but are used to no compromises in the quality of the print and where they choose to read.

            • by ShieldW0lf ( 601553 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @07:53AM (#13387957) Journal
              It's easier to rewrite history when there are no books. It all happened just like in the Hollywood movies, right?

              Man, and you thought Americans were undereducated and brainwashed before, wait till this takes off!

              And it's starting in Texas, how poetic.
          • by the_xaqster ( 877576 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @06:50AM (#13387742) Homepage Journal
            So how many people here find something interesting on the web, then print it out to read it if it is more than a few pages?

            How many of these students will print out reams of paper that they would not have done if they had the book infront of them?
            • So how many people here find something interesting on the web, then print it out to read it if it is more than a few pages?

              How many of these students will print out reams of paper that they would not have done if they had the book infront of them?


              At work we kill lots of trees to print out tech manuals and product manuals that are sent to us electronically.

              At school I did the same thing, especially with homework assignments. The school wanted all the professors to start sending out homework assignm
            • Paper? why? (Score:4, Interesting)

              by dazedNconfuzed ( 154242 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @10:43AM (#13389093)
              I don't print anything for reading. To the contrary, I scan everything I can so whatever I want is on one slim notebook computer or a few cubic inches of 0.5TB storage.

              Moving into an apartment led me to reduce paper as much as possible. While reading paper is nicer (mostly because that's what we grew up with), I have no qualms about reading long texts online. The tradeoff favors a paperless existance.

              That said, I do have about 3000 books in storage, hopefully destined for a dedicate personal library when I find a new house. Online text is great for speed and portability ... but truly worthwhile material (NOT relatively transient stuff printed to be read once and tossed) should be printed, bound, and shelved as long-lasting human-readable low-tech backups.

              The library should digitize all its books ... but absolutely should retain the physical copies. One good-sized EMP and the computers will forget everything. And there's nothing like spending hours wandering the stacks, browsing thru whatever strikes you.

        • by cquark ( 246669 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @09:46AM (#13388632)
          You prefer to read from a book because it's a superior technology. The book's resolution is far higher than the screen, as books are typically printed at a resolution of 1500dpi or better, compared to around 100dpi for most modern monitors. The book's display is an absorptive technology, which is easier on your eyes than the projective nature of the monitor. You also can't beat the book's infinite "battery life," compared to a few hours for notebook computers.

          While technologies like digital ink, which is an absorptive display that doesn't consume power unless you're changing the text, may offer a superior technology to books in the future, the book is a much better technology than current computers for reading large amounts of text.
      • You used some interesting terminology... "at the expense of printed books." One of the interesting things not totally discussed in the CSM article is that the library isn't going to be paying for the building upkeep and such all on its own anymore... Space is expensive, and scarce at UT. IT Services is going to be taking some of that on. There were some budgetary reasons for this decision as well as the move to the "information commons."
      • Re:bad move. (Score:5, Informative)

        by Funksaw ( 636954 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @11:48AM (#13389701)
        They aren't throwing out a single book.

        The University of Texas "Undergraduate Library" has an interesting history - basically, the library was developed to allow undergraduates to browse stacks - before then, only graduates could do so - undergraduates had to use the card catalog to find exactly the book they wanted and give it to the librarian.

        This was in the 1950s-1960s.

        But since then, almost every library is open to every student - making an "undergraduate library" a bit of a redundancy. Already, the "Undergraduate Library" was not the main library on campus - that honor went to the Perry-Castaneda Library a blocks south. (It's a Biiiig campus)

        That's where all 90,000 books will go.

        It's actually a better deal - instead of looking in the directory at the PCL and finding out that the book you want is at the OTHER library (something that's happened quite a bit to me!) the books will be in one place. Already the "Undergraduate Library" - or as it's now known, the Flawn Academic Center, was used primarily as study-group area (because it had a big lobby) the housing of the campus computer store, and one of the largest computer labs on campus.

        So, to recap: No books will be thrown out, they'll be put where they ought to be - with the other books, in the other, main library on campus. This is a win-win.

    • If books are thins from the past, I don't see the point in still calling the building a library?

      Internet coffee would suit better.

    • Re:bad move. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by UndyingShadow ( 867720 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:30AM (#13387389)
      My library gets upset when I highlight, markup, and take notes in their books.
    • Re:bad move. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by gowen ( 141411 ) <gwowen@gmail.com> on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:36AM (#13387407) Homepage Journal
      They're not discarding the books. They're moving them to other buildings in the library system. You can still get hold of them, if you want to.

      Sounds like a minor restructuring of the library system blown out of all proportion because one building that formerly held books doesn't any more.
      • Re:bad move. (Score:5, Informative)

        by BusterB ( 10791 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @08:23AM (#13388084)
        Seriously; UT literally has dozens of libraries that aren't going anywhere. The library in question has always been more of a study and group-work meeting place than a library for years now; its right next to the Student Union, the West Mall. Since neither of those places is getting any bigger, and the student population gets larger and more decentralized, having meeting places like these are more and more important.

        Even in 1996, the first floor was magazines and study area, the second floor meeting rooms and computer lab, the top floor was an art gallery and ball room! Not much room for books in the first place.
        • Re:bad move. (Score:4, Informative)

          by Total_Wimp ( 564548 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @09:23AM (#13388468)
          I had to go back and re-read TFA after reading this post. On first reading I had thought the books were being transferred to other nearby shools rather than within the same school. This, of course, becomes a complete non-issue if the books are still readily available to students at that school.

          However, this has gotten people to talking about the differences between gathering info on a computer and gathering info from books. I have to point out that regardless of which method is "better," the vast majority of the books in question are simply not available for free "checkout" in electronic form. Project Guttenburg is awesome and would be my first stop for classics, but it would be a pretty big mistake to think 20th and 21st century authors are irrelivant.

          Until students can get a huge cross-section of copyrighted authors available to them online, we have to keep the print libraries.

          TW
    • Re:bad move. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by venicebeach ( 702856 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:37AM (#13387410) Homepage Journal
      I hear you, but on the other hand do we expect these facilities to stay the same forever? I wouldn't really make sense for the technology of information storage and distribution to just end with the building-full-of-books library.

      These libraries are part of an evolution - think back to card catalogues, shelves full of scrolls perhaps before that - written language itself is not so old in the scope of human history. .. is the paper book or journal really the ultimate solution in this evolution?

      For scientific research I find the online resources to be a tremendous improvement. If I read a paper and want to find referenced article I can click a link and have it immediately - rather than climbing three floors in the stacks. I can go through a lot more information, sorting and sifting through the relevant items much more effectively online compared with doing it on foot in the library... I still do love the smell of all those books though...
      • If they can just do it relaxed, not too drastical as it sounds in the summary above. Here at Wageningen University (NL) some idiot wanted to introduce the flexible office or whatever they call it, where nobody has his/her own desk, even for professors. The argument was that you could scan in your books and put it all on the laptop.
        I can imagine a flex office works with simpe repetitive tasks with a central database such as insurance companies but the average professor here still has 4 bookshelves in his roo
    • WOW, all I can say is that it's a shame ... there is nothing like books when it comes to learning; it's not easy to highlight, markup and take notes on a public computer or a loaned out laptop.

      Wow, it's extremely easy to take notes on ANY computer (IMO much easier then it is with paper, I've been paperless for 2 years now and I haven't looked back at all). And thanks to eReader, it's extremely easy to highlight.
    • This will last until UT makes the top 10 party school list. Then they'll call that library a student union.
    • there is nothing like books when it comes to learning; it's not easy to highlight, markup and take notes on a public computer or a loaned out laptop

      And maybe that's why they did it: They got tired of people like you highlighting, marking-up, and taking notes on THEIR books.
    • How funny. Stories entitled "The Decline of Science and Technology in America" and "College Libraries Without Books" on the front page simultaneously.
    • by evilandi ( 2800 ) <andrew@aoakley.com> on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @09:27AM (#13388502) Homepage
      there is nothing like books when it comes to learning

      But what if the reason for reducing libraries, isn't to shift towards e-learning, but instead pressure from book SHOPS?

      If I were an amoral university principal - or even a moral principal at an underfunded university - I'd take nice fat cheques from the bookshops and reduce the libraries.

      A good on-campus bookshop and a laptop sales/repair outlet could really clean up in a university with insufficient library facilities.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Have they guaranteed that every piece of printed matter in the library is available in electronic format, equally easy to access, before doing this?

    If not it seems like a move to effectively rob students of necessary learning resources.

    Surely people wanting to study in a library are more interested in access to good materials than in a coffeeshop environment which they can get elsewhere easily.

    Then again, no doubt the university will make a shed load of money from the coffee, etc.
    • RTFA? (Score:5, Informative)

      by mincognito ( 839071 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:15AM (#13387333)
      Have they guaranteed that every piece of printed matter in the library is available in electronic format, equally easy to access, before doing this?

      The books were just moved to other libraries on campus.

      From TFA:

      "This summer, 90,000 volumes were transferred to other collections in the campus's massive library system."
  • You know (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Effugas ( 2378 ) * on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:08AM (#13387311) Homepage
    For tech subjects, there's nothing like Google.

    For tech subjects.

    Get into the real world, of detailed data though -- suddenly, all the detailed data is in the literature. We must find a way to expose that data to the new mechanisms of search -- searching indices of books in the Dewey Decimal System is over, and it's now a matter of factual extinction vs. getting the data out there.

    • Re:You know (Score:5, Interesting)

      by CharlesEGrant ( 465919 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @05:06AM (#13387488)
      They are already way ahead of you. Check out http://www.thomsonisi.com/ [thomsonisi.com], an index of most of the the major peer reviewed journals (or at least those that provide english abstracts). You can use it as a keyword index, but the real kicker is being able to find every paper that cited a given paper. It sure beats flipping through its predecessor, the old Science Citation Index.

      To get access to it you'll have to have an account at an academic library though.
    • Get into the real world, of detailed data though -- suddenly, all the detailed data is in the literature.

      Well put, but I'll even go one further. All the detailed date is in literature (books) and peer reviewed journals. That's one of the biggest problems. Lots of those journals with the latest research DO have websites that contain their articles, but the websites usually partially or fully restrict access to their information....they want paying customers (the people and organizations who already hav

  • by sessamoid ( 165542 ) * on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:09AM (#13387316)
    Guess I'll have to take a trip back to the old alma mater some day to take a look at this thing. Back when I was there, Flawn Academic Center was still called the "Undergraduate Library", though it was already undergoing the early stages of this transition. The UGL (nicknamed the "UGLy") was the least user-friendly of the libraries on campus, and people tended to hang and study in the larger and more cozy PCL. The FAC was then transitioning to more computer labs and such.
    • by MPolo ( 129811 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @05:44AM (#13387598)
      Agreed. The only times I went into the UGL at UT were to give blood and to vote. I suppose there were books in there somewhere, but if you were actually researching something, you had to go to the PCL or one of the departmental libraries. This is a logical development and is not taking books away from the students in any way. If anything, it is more convenient for the students, because they are more likely to find everything they want in the same library instead of having to trapse across campus -- the two librarys are six or seven blocks apart, if I remember correctly.
  • There will be a mega starbucks counter so that everybody will have something to drink.

    He, actually since libraries usually have pretty good locations in cities, maybe this should be done to every library. Let me make some phonecalls to arrange it....
  • So, is it going to be replaced with a online library? Are they going to let students rely on Wikipedia for reference? what about all them books that are too old and fragile to be scanned. Seems like a very short sighted decision to me.

    • So... a book that's too old and fragile to be scanned, you're going to put in a library where the general public (relatively speaking) have unsupervised access?

      If anything, it IS the old and fragile books that most desperately need to be digitized to be preserved and given a wider audience.
  • The future is now (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:10AM (#13387322)
    People talk about "1984" all the time, but I think Ray Bradbury was more on the mark. Every day we get closer to the world described in "Fahrenheit 451".

    Unfortunately, if you try to tell people about this, they get all confused due to that recent documentary (which stole the name).
    • by John Seminal ( 698722 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:35AM (#13387405) Journal
      People talk about "1984" all the time, but I think Ray Bradbury was more on the mark. Every day we get closer to the world described in "Fahrenheit 451".

      Unfortunately, if you try to tell people about this, they get all confused due to that recent documentary (which stole the name).

      That is why nothing can beat a book. No matter what story is told, the book is printed, and it will NOT change. You can't just take a bottle of white out and a pen and make a change. If you want to know what Lenin thought, you can find his words printed on paper. Somewhere, on a bookshelf, is a copy of his works. No matter how hard government tries to take away those books, they are out there, in attics, in basements, in places people forgot about.

      If something is on electronic format, how long until there are hacks, and patches, and confusion, and chaos?

      Student #1:"But Professor, my book said Iraq did have WMD".
      Student #2:"Professor, my book was hacked, it says there are no WMD and that Halliburton made a billion dollars."
      Professor: "Those damn hackers! This is why we need another guantanamo."

      This is more like 1984 than Fahrenhite 451. Fahrenhite 451 was about government kicking in doors and burning books. That will never happen as long as the USA has the 2nd Amendment. But what is more likely to happen is 1984, where government changes facts. What is told today as fact is told tomorrow as fiction.

      That is why it is so alarming that a PUBLIC library would decide to get rid of books.

      I hope the first hack is not to change the electronic database to say the 2nd Amendment gaurentees the right to 2 dollars an hour employment.

      • That is why nothing can beat a book. No matter what story is told, the book is printed, and it will NOT change

        That's why I have trouble with old books such as the bible. Before it was published in print, it was told by word of mouth. As we all know, people tend to change things with each itteration to their own likings. Plus, there was those times where pretty much only those in power and religious leaders could actually read. During those times, who's to say they didn't get changed yet again to suit those
    • You mean the fat whiny guy from Michigan?
  • Sad =( (Score:3, Interesting)

    by BlueCup ( 753410 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:10AM (#13387323) Homepage Journal
    I went to the University of Texas, and their library was always inspiring. Their libraries were huge. I remember checking out a 300 page book on moth's probiscus... I don't think that kind of information is available online, at least not anywhere near as in depth... Atleast to me, this is a huge disappointment...
  • Academics? what...? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by QQoicu2 ( 797685 )
    This seems odd to me. After receiving an Honorable Mention from Playboy in their "America's Best Party Schools" list in 2002, one would think they'd try to turn that reputation around. I mean sure, Internet research is all well and good, but nothing will ever replace a long boring Saturday holed up in the library with a stack of books.
  • No books? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ddx Christ ( 907967 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:11AM (#13387326) Homepage

    Am I the only one bothered by this? Although the internet is very useful for finding information quickly, I wouldn't go to the scale of turning a library into a social setting by removing books and making it internet-oriented; books are essential, and I find it much more comfortable to read a book in a chair rather than onscreen at my computer on a website configured in an awkward way that makes it difficult to read.

    Constantly printing material is rather annoying, in my opinion, and I couldn't stand it at my High School. We were doing something similar - a Virtual Library it was called - and there were only two rows of books. Not many people used the library. As internet-oriented as I am, I still went to the Public Library instead of that useless Virtual Library.

    Who knows, though. Only time will tell, but I'm getting the feeling it isn't a good thing.

  • No no no... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Raul654 ( 453029 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:12AM (#13387327) Homepage
    This is sick. I'm sorry, but it is. There is *NOTHING* on the web that can compare, in both depth and breadth, to a well stocked research library. Use the internet to get quick, on-point information - a particular stat or an overview of something; you go to a library if you want to spend a lot of time doing some in depth study with materials that far outclass what you are going to find on the web.
    • You do not have access to the resources available ONLY to university students via the web. This includes electronic versions of thousands of journals, databases, dictionaries, etc, etc. Yes, books are still important, but don't confuse your web with the electronic resources available to students at any major university. We certainly aren't using google (or google scholar :P) for research. At least not those of us getting passing grades.
      • Just wanted to chime in and agree. I generally bring a stack of printouts to my university library to read.

        I have checked out a few books in my time here, but the vast bulk of my reading is pulled out of citeseer or another appropriate resource.
      • by dajak ( 662256 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @05:39AM (#13387587)
        I am a university researcher, and I do use Google Scholar and Citeseer almost exclusively. The university is subscribed to almost everything out there, and I only rarely need something that is not available through the web. It depends on the field you are in, of course; I rarely need something more than 10 years old.
        • by Anonymous Coward
          I am a phd student (machine learning if you must know), and I have to disagree with you here. While the net (citeseer, IEEEtrans, google scholar etc.) is ideal for reading up on the latest research in the field, if I want to review a subject in depth I find the easiest, most efficient, fastest way is (usually) to find a few good books, spread them across the desk (along with a stack of blank paper) and start reading + taking notes. Besides, I *like* wandering through the library looking for books - there'
    • This is sick. I'm sorry, but it is. There is *NOTHING* on the web that can compare, in both depth and breadth, to a well stocked research library.

      that's where you're wrong.

      speaking as a programmer for a research university's library, i can say there is more and more relevant material online. particularly in the sciences, most current research is done using pre-publication drafts obtained from colleagues. by the time it's printed it's out of date.

      more to the point, this article is talking about a

  • by Dachannien ( 617929 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:12AM (#13387328)
    ...but sometimes you find that the original source for some material is in a text published thirty (or sixty, or even more) years ago that simply cannot be found online. While you may be able to hit the online journals for current research, there's no substitute for citing the fundamentals, and you can't honestly cite a work without even taking a moment to skim through it first.

    So, until a university scans all of its book collection for online perusal, this is a step in the wrong direction.

  • WTF (Score:2, Interesting)

    by dthx1138 ( 833363 )
    why? my school's (cal poly slo) library has 2 labs with about 100 computers, we have laptops available, and lots of tables, group rooms, and comfy chairs.

    we also have 4 stories of books above that.

    you're telling me a cal state school has a bigger library than UT?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:20AM (#13387355)
    The actual press release from UT:
    http://www.lib.utexas.edu/about/news/fac.html [utexas.edu]

    Even though the undergraduate library apparently had 90,000 volumes there, NO ONE I KNOW used it as an actual-book library. Practically all the useful real books are at the main campus library (Perry-Castaneda), not the UGL. First floor of the UGL had magazines. Second floor had a pretty large and useful computer lab. Third floor had mostly media for checkout (CDs, DVDs, etc.). There were some shelves of books there, but very, VERY rarely did I ever need one of them. The fourth floor was cordoned off and had some art pieces in storage that would go to the Ransom Center elsewhere on campus.

    It makes a lot of sense to move those few volumes that were actually at the UGL to the other libraries. This creates a lot more room at the UGL/FAC for study areas, which were pretty lacking.

    So, while the blaring headlines make it sound like a big deal, from the point-of-view of a UT student (going on five years now and counting, woo hoo), this isn't that big of a deal.
  • They may have given the books away to other libraries in the system, but I have a feeling that when they say "software suites", they are including the digitized versions of the books they are eliminating.

    Information is not a static thing, and the progress from static books to dynamic online resources is a reaction to that. However, there is still value in understanding what people believed back before the "curent truth" was understood. Spontaneous Generation, a defunct theory of abiogenesis, was once the
  • coverups? hah (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    its because the funding was cut on the UGL
    its sad that they are proclaiming that this was the plan all along though
    there were protests all over campus last semester to keep the library the way it was.

    the large library (the one that most people used if they were using books) is still there.
    to tell you the truth i didnt know a single person who used the UGL, so maybe this will end up being a nice fix to something that could have been just bulldozed instead.

    *shrug*
    i get back to campus in 3 days, so i g
  • by MythryN ( 770085 )
    The undergraduate library at UT hardly has any books anyway. It's basically a place where students go to study. I have never heard of anyone going to find a book there. They don't have research journals or anything like that. There are something like 15 other libraries on campus that have all the books and journals (eg. Life Sciences Library, Engineering Library, Main PCL Library, etc.).
  • The story title implies that the books had been replaced by some other (supposedly digital) resource, which is not true. The only reason this particular UT library branch does not have books is because they transferred the books to another library on the same campus, so technically, the library still has the books. Large universities like UT Austin have massive libraries with multiple branches on the same campus, so they can afford to empty one of the branches and make it into some sort of laptop lounge.
  • by Spasemunki ( 63473 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:39AM (#13387420) Homepage
    What they are talking about is not removing the books from the UT library system. What they are talking about is, basically, converting a single undergraduate library into a student center, because undergrad libraries are no longer necesary in most places.

    See, back in the Bad Old Days, undergrads were sort of like roaches. You wanted them out of sight, and you certainly didn't want them anywhere important. So they weren't permitted in the stacks at university libraries. Instead, you filled out a form and gave it to a librarian, and they brought you the book you requested. Fill out the form wrong and get the wrong book? Fill out another form. All this to prevent those scalliwag undergrads from mussing the stacks.

    In the 50's, Harvard had what was (at the time) a revolutionary idea: don't just keep undergrads out of the stacks- quarantine them! They built Lamont library, the nations first undergraduate library. The shelves were filled with the sort of intro-level books on topics that undergrads were likely to research for their classes. There was a recreational reading collection, and rooms for group study. The undergrads got to browse the books and had a place to gather. The grad school and departmental libraries didn't have to interact with undergrads. Everyone was happy.

    Since those heady days, things have changed a bit. Many university systems have replaced cantankerous old librarians and card catalogues with computer-indexed search systems, and English majors employed part-time to damage the bar code scanner. Many schools have open stacks now, and have opened all their libraries to undergraduates. Furthermore, the growth of collections means that more and more a dedicated undergraduate library can't house all the books that an undergrad might need. Now you have your collection divided between the grab-bag of books in the undergrad collection, the in-depth books in the departmental or grad school collection, and the overflow books available by request from the warehouse featured in "Raiders of the Lost Arc".

    In such a situation, some schools (apparently such as UT) have found that the undergrad library is more of a bother than a help as a library. Undergrads still go there to study, but increasingly the books that they want are in other parts of the library system; for books that might be useful to both undergraduates and grad students and faculty, you either have to duplicate efforts or force grads and faculty to wander over to the undergrad library. So there's a logical solution: convert the undergrad library to what it really is- a student center for undergrads, oriented somewhat around studying and writing papers- and move the books back into the general library system, which everyone is already using anyway.

    This has little or nothing to do with "taking the books out of libraries" as near as I can tell. UT will still have its giant collection of real books that you can check out and read when the power goes out, or on a plane for 12 hours, or in the bathroom without your eyes bleeding and falling out of your head. They will continue to buy new books as they are published, and maintain the old collection. No need to push the bibliophile panic button just yet.
    • "the overflow books available by request from the warehouse featured in "Raiders of the Lost Arc"."

      Dude, you mean I can check out the Arc of the Covenant for a couple of weeks? The boys at Gamma Phi Kappa are gonna be spun when I show them this text over a bong hit.

    • Finally, someone who has been paying attention. I hate reading anything on-line, but 99% of the time when I went to my university library I brought my own books. I didn't go there to find information, I didn't go there even for quiet, I went there so I had a nice atmosphere in which to read my books and maybe chat a bit with my fellow students.

      This is what they've done here, they've made a place where you can do that, that is designed for the purpose, it's likely to be well lit, and reasonably comfortable a

  • by mincognito ( 839071 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @04:44AM (#13387433)
    Ya, the headline/summary is misleading but really people, RTFA. The books are not being burned, simply moved to other locations on campus.

    It is true that books no longer play the role they used to in higher learning. As a PhD student, 75% of my reading is journal articles, accessed online from school or by connecting through a VPN. Being able to search out and access this material electronically is a MASSIVE time saver. Sure as hell beats photocopying articles in the library.
  • Hmm (Score:2, Insightful)

    by JChung2006 ( 894379 )
    Does the library really need to be a social gathering place? Isn't the rest of the campus big enough to serve that purpose?
  • There seems to be plenty of reason that a book is better and plenty of reasons that a electronic copy is better. I think the best thing would be to have both available. If every book had a CD in the back cover containing an electronic copy of it I think that would be great.

    You could still sit down and read the book in a nice comfy chair, but you could also take the CD with you when you go somewhere. You would also have the advantage of using the CD as a reference once you're done reading. You could also
  • Where I went to university, the libraries weren't really good hangout places. The ones that got used as hangout places were too loud to think. Plus there was always scum creeping into the library to steal stuff. Given that the average student has a laptop, I'm guessing this is more of a problem. Anyway, books&concentration and hanging out don't really work -- it is good that they are giving students what they want. If they want to make it like Starbucks, perhaps they should consider leasing the library
    • Interesting point. In fact, I noticed this with a game called Netrek [netrek.org] that I used to play in the early '90s at Cal (it's still around--the game and the University :)

      Basically, people got sucked into an open source game with a very flat learning curve and complex teamplay by going to labs and seeing people playing it during work breaks and late at night (despite a NO GAMES) policy that was spottily enforced by the "web trolls". A lot of the cultural aspects of the CSUA [berkeley.edu], a CS student social organization, als
  • by sammaverick ( 771437 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @05:20AM (#13387530)
    As a student that is attending the University of Texas, I have to clarify that the books in the Undergraduate Library (UGL) are not being "replaced" , they are being moved to the other libraries on campus, which contain most of the books already. The Undergrad library in the past has been more of a place where students went to study, used computers in the computer lab, and read periodicals.

    Moving the books to other libraries and dedicating the space to student gatherings/ studies is not that bad of a thing. Considering that there seems to be a need of group study areas, this might help with that.

    We already have computer labs, laptops for check out, and wifi in there. So really, the main addition are the colorful chairs.

    • Thanks for making it clear what is really going on. It sounds like a good idea to me. From my subjective observation of the Hancock Library [anu.edu.au] about 90% of student activity is dedicated to using the computers to research articles, run programs and writeup assignments.

      The books and journals are priceless, but are not that heavily used. Most essays reference recent artilces that are mostly online. I personally use books or old journal articles for historical context in the Introduction. It is great to have acc

  • While they're at it, they should make an Amsterdam-style coffeeshop instead - then the socializing will become much ... funnier. At least that's the association that *I* made immediately upon reading the post.
  • But wait hear me out, I said /addition/. Until we manage to archive all these books and come up with a suitable replacement to paper for long-term reading sessions we need to keep the books.

    These people are not really adding a library, but converting one into a study building and moving the books elsewhere. Come finals, it's not as easy as you'd think to find places to study the way you'd like. I need a table enough for me and perhaps 3 other study partners, and freedom to audibly discuss/teach each other
  • There a two different usage patterns concerning books in my humble opinion.

    Research, where I really enjoy beeing able to full-text search through thousands of (e.g.) pdfs and online information (through spinweb etc.)

    Reading a book I much prefer if it is for entertainment or if I have to dig deep into a subject. There I don't need full-text search and a book has no other fancy features that distract my attention.

  • by el_womble ( 779715 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @06:08AM (#13387646) Homepage
    I'm a big fan of dead trees. Huge. I've ranted about how great the interface is for years, but this is one instance where it kinda makes sense.

    I would never buy an encylopedia now that I've got web access. I wouldn't buy a research paper either. The reason is that I only want to use a small fraction and I'll need it for 20 minutes whilst I extract the bit I need and plagerise it mercilessly :p. If I can just print that one bit out I'll be happy.

    Its these circumstances when I want a tablet like device sitting next to my PC. Its dimesions should be somewhere between A5 and A4 notepad and weigh about the same (200g). The interface should be exactly the same as the iPod. A simple menu for selecting the book you want, and a scroll wheel for flicking through the pages. Left and right buttons to move back and forth through individual pages. There should be a stylus, so that you can highlight text. As you are never writing to the device, highlighting automatically places that text / picture into the clipboard of the host Mac/PC. Its must be wireless, preferably bluetooth, although the majority of its storage will come from a MMC card if you need to transfer alot of books. The screen should be relective, and black and white - no backlight nastiness. I don't need or want color or animation - yet.

    Oh... and I want a pony.
  • For those that haven't attended larger schools (then again, neither have I...just visited them), most major state universities have several libraries, even several major libraries. They are basically just pulling the books out of one and distributing them to the others (which, I'm guessing, have even been expanded physically over the years...so no net loss).

    The only reason this is even a story is because they are still calling it a "library," rather than an additional student union building or electroni

  • Ha-ha!

    People write things down in books because it's permanent.

    People write things down online because it's not.
  • University of Texas has eleven separate libraries. All of the books from this library were distributed around to the other libraries (of which there are still more than enough). None of the books are actually gone.
  • by b0s0z0ku ( 752509 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @08:40AM (#13388180)
    I know the books weren't destroyed or anything - I have RTFA.

    However, I'm addressing the computer screen vs. paper books debate. I had a bad case of Lyme Disease this winter - actually, I still have it just not as bad. Anyway, one of the neurological problems was that I had a problem with different contrast levels - i.e. reading bright letters on a dark background or vice versa really SUCKED. Sucked as in gave me a massive headache after 5 min or so. Books were much better in this respect.

    -b.
  • Assorted items (Score:3, Interesting)

    by john.r.strohm ( 586791 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @08:42AM (#13388191)
    Background: I attended UT Austin as a professional student 1973-1981, and did refresher work in 2003-2004.

    First, it was officially named the Academic Center since at least 1973. It was known informally as the Undergraduate Library. Renaming to "Peter T. Flawn Academic Center" occurred much later.

    Second, what is really happening here is that the Academic Computing and Information Technology Services organization is growing, and needed space. Rather than build a building, it was far cheaper to take the remaining space in an existing building. The ground floor was computer labs, magazines, and study carrels. The second floor was ACITS offices, a huge open lab, and a large open space. While I was there, ACITS filled the open space with support offices, and also took some of the open lab for office space. The computers that had been located in that part of the open space were relocated elsewhere in the building, mainly to the third floor. The third floor contained what few books were left, along with the media library (formerly the audio library).

    Finally, there is one question I haven't seen addressed, and I really wish I was a student so I could get the question asked in public. The library system had always paid for the guards for the building. Library system budget cuts forced the Academic Center to remove the guards on third shift. When the guards went away, ACITS closed the open lab on that shift, because there was now no one to make even nominally certain that hardware didn't walk out the door. There were some loud grumbles about closing the biggest 24-hour open lab on campus, but nothing ever came of it. Now that the building is entirely an ACITS facility, will ACITS find the money for guards to have the building open for students 24 hours a day?

    And I should mention that I spent a LOT of time studying in the Academic Center and using that open lab.
  • I'll Help! (Score:3, Funny)

    by rlp ( 11898 ) on Wednesday August 24, 2005 @08:55AM (#13388262)
    When UT decides to get rid of that musty old Gutenberg bible - I'd be willing to take it off their hands. Heck, I'll even pay shipping.

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