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Sci-Fi Media Television

Is Enterprise Heading To Canada? 335

Posted by Zonk from the i-don't-want-to-go-on-the-cart dept.
Tycoon Guy writes "TrekToday reports that the TrekUnited fan campaign a few weeks ago partnered with a group of Canadian production companies to pitch a co-production deal for 'Star Trek: Enterprise' to Paramount. As part of this deal, production would be moved up to Canada, and TrekUnited and the Canadian group would share the costs of a fifth season with Paramount. Apparently Viacom executives are considering the proposal, despite another branch of Paramount saying the cancellation was final just a few days ago."
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Is Enterprise Heading To Canada? More

Is Enterprise Heading To Canada?

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  • Canada (Score:5, Funny)

    by elid ( 672471 ) <eli.ipod@[ ]il.com ['gma' in gap]> on Friday April 15, 2005 @03:56PM (#12248278)
    To boldly go where no man has gone before :-)
    • Canada?

      I've been there... actually, I'm still there and so are ~30M other people!

    • Re:Canada (Score:5, Funny)

      by Kimos ( 859729 ) <kimos.slashdotNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday April 15, 2005 @04:08PM (#12248467) Homepage
      Hope it works out! I'm not sure if all those American actors and production teams are used to working in our studio igloos. They'll probably have Enterprise spend lots of time visiting Andoria.

      Hahahahaha... *wipes tear* I love Canada.
      • Live long and prosper, eh!
      • I didn't see any mention of where they would film in Canada if this plan is actually implimented. If it's in Vancouver, BC it's not that cold. Coming from warmer and usually dryer LA-area I guess the cooler/damper weather of Vancouver might be difficult for some people to handle.
        • I didn't see any mention of where they would film in Canada if this plan is actually implimented. If it's in Vancouver, BC it's not that cold. Coming from warmer and usually dryer LA-area I guess the cooler/damper weather of Vancouver might be difficult for some people to handle.

          Put down the Tim Horton's and get back in your ice cave, you impudent back bacon eater!

    • Re:Canada (Score:5, Informative)

      by fm6 ( 162816 ) on Friday April 15, 2005 @04:12PM (#12248530) Homepage Journal
      Need I point out that William Shatner is Canadian? Besides, a lot of U.S. TV shows are produced there. Including an unlikely number of SF shows: Stargate SG-1, X Files, Outer Limits, to name a few. Production costs are lower north of the 49th, for reasons I'm not entirely clear on.

      Of course, this is all more Trekkie lameness. Even if they can raise the money to produce the show, Viacom is not going to hand over one of its biggest properties to outsiders, even one that has not been making them money. When a property turns unprofitable they usually sit on it for years, hoping it becomes profitable if they hold it off the market long enough.

      They might agree to sell the Trek franchise. But not cheaply. If anybody can raise that kind of money, they should start their own SF franchise, not fritter it away trying to revive one that wore out years ago.

      • BSG (Score:5, Informative)

        by John Harrison ( 223649 ) <johnharrison@@@gmail...com> on Friday April 15, 2005 @04:23PM (#12248678) Homepage Journal
        I am pretty sure that Battlestar Galactica is filmed in Canada as well.

        • Re:BSG (Score:4, Informative)

          by barc0001 ( 173002 ) on Friday April 15, 2005 @05:22PM (#12249491)
          It is. They film Atlantis, Battlestar and SG-1 about a kilometer from my house in Burnaby, on the Vancouver city border. I see the trucks and the lot direction signs (Arrows with a three letter abbreviation for the show in question that tell the crews where to go) in my neighborhood all the time.

        • Re:BSG (Score:3, Informative)

          by blincoln ( 592401 )
          I am pretty sure that Battlestar Galactica is filmed in Canada as well.

          Yes. The city on Caprica in the pilot was Simon Fraser University [www.sfu.ca].

          When Boomer and Helo are walking through the abandoned city in an early episode, it's a CGI-enhanced downtown Vancouver. The quasi-future-Roman building is the library.

          The cinematic masterpiece The Sixth Day used both of those locations as well.
      • Ah yes, Canada, filming location for such sci-fi greats as Battlefield Earth and Pluto Nash...

      • Obligatory whiny unreasonable fanboy response (Score:5, Interesting)

        by mcc ( 14761 ) <amcclure@purdue.edu> on Friday April 15, 2005 @04:41PM (#12248928) Homepage
        Besides, a lot of U.S. TV shows are produced there. Including an unlikely number of SF shows:

        I feel compelled to point out here that the X-Files didn't begin to suck until after they moved production from Canada to California...

        (To be fair, the first season in california was actally really good. The Sucking did not begin until the *second* California-filmed season. But we can chalk this up to inertia. Canadian inertia.)

      • Re:Canada Anybody Remember Airwolf? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by davidsyes ( 765062 ) on Friday April 15, 2005 @05:34PM (#12249650) Homepage Journal
        I used to like the US production of Airwolf, a former Bellasarius production. It died in the US market, losing Jan Michael Vincent, Ernest Borgnine and a few other characters, but was resurrected in Canada. Having watched Airwolf since about 1983 or 1984, I was surprised when in 1988 in Bahrain at the Admin Support Unit lounge and saw Airwolf on TV. But, I was initially dismayed at the glassy-screen-like camera treatment and the character changes. But, actually, I ended up liking it a bit later, despite it moving up north and using different formatting/ratios. One thing I did later liked was that the cinematography was different: The camera angles and movements and even focal length seemed un-US-like. I like it. The show then seemed "quicker" and "grittier" in some aspects.

        However, many US Trek fans and unions will probably bitch like hell at the move. If it can be moved to Canada, some will reason, then why can't the costs be brought down, and it kept here in the US. Well, maybe the Canadian studios do the same or better work for slightly less up-front cost. I dunno, but for a production to leave the US and go to another country, SOMEthing is being saved. Or, someone else wants the cachet of having Trek or (name your show) on their notched belt.

        Heck, even the Simpsons show has most of if not all of its artwork and animation done in South Korea. It costs a fraction of what it would in the US, and the Korean team is doing a great job, it seems.

        To the dismay of a number of Trek fans, and maybe even the cast, as with Airwolf, some or all of the cast and characters might change. I wouldn't be surprised if some elites or idealists in Canada tweak Enterprise to be more CanaPrize, making Star Trek's vision of the future include MORE of the real world, instead of Hollywood's US-market-centric/pleasing view of the world.

        For example:

        Voyager had Harry Kim, cuz "we gotta please the economically powerful and politically savvy Asian community..." yet while Tom Paris was a misfit inmate who caused the death of Starfleet personnel, he was eventually promoted to Lieutenant on Voyager, the ship, not just the show. Clean-nosed, sometimes defiant Harry Kim? Oh, he's done what NO ensign wants to do/be: Remain ensign for SEVEN YEARS on the same ship. His not receiving a field promotion by Janeway was NOT a Federation/UFP/Starfleet issue. I DARE say it was a US-centric, hollywood "thing" about keeping Garret Wang's character "down". (No, Kim's being promoed AFTER Voyager destroyed/set back the Borg does NOT count, since his promotion was a cheesy-assed future-scene, not part of Voyagers' Fans chronology...)

        Of course, that example won't fly when compared to DS9, since women were elevated, but aside from Cassidy Yates, most were not real-life ethnic minorities.

        As for Enterprise, Mayweather seems to gleefully smile at the console, from most of the episodes I've seen. It is true he and Hoshi had their little moments, one of Hoshi's being to copulate with an alien and "exchange some language"...

        I hope the Canadians take Trek where it's never been before: GLOBAL!

        It would be nice to see an Indian in a turbin on duty, in uniform. It would be NICE to see a Black/Asian couple aboard ship, instead of the all-too-beaten/submission-forced Anglo/Sino pairings. It would be nice to see an Iraqi, or Greek, or person from Tuvalu or Vunuato and identified as such, on the ship. It would be nice to see crew members in their off-duty, and NOT just the main ensemble.

        In Canada's hands, after about a year of some close-minded segment of the audience kvetching, Trek could TRULY improve, for instance, diving into details of a new and improved UN Security Council's fictional but pivotal role in rescuing the world from one-country-control, despite global markets theoretically dictating that one country cannot control the world.

        Yeh, up to this point, Trek has been a franchise of US origin, and it is a venture/business driven by demographics. Well, it's time for WORLD demo

  • Nice... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Stick_Fig ( 740331 )
    If this actually works, and Arrested Development gets cancelled, I would drain my bank account for a third season of that.
    • Your drained bank account and .25 cents still won't buy you a pack of bubble gum ;)
    • AD is getting cancelled? I thought the Emmy win put the kybash on that whole cancellation thing? Man I hate TV Execs, almost as much as I hate stupid TV viewers.

    • Re:Nice... (Score:3, Informative)

      by UWC ( 664779 )
      Whoa, what's this about Arrested Development being cancelled? Has there been word of cancellation? I know of the reduced order this season. The reasoning did seem a little suspect (American Dad's (abysmal) premiere episode got good ratings.. you know, immediately after the Super Bowl, during which it had been heavily advertised...). At least the reduced order resulted in a hilarious gag in a recent episode (the reduced housing order from 22 to 18 homes, where Michael said "But we already had all the bluepri
      • I totally missed the "reduced housing order" as a shortened season. I hadn't known about the reduced order either.

        Nice catch. I love that show.
      • I think the GP meant "...and IF Arrested Development gets cancelled...." He just used the "if this and that" notation that's [ahem] common in programming environments.
        • Then he should have used parentheses to alleviate ambiguity!

          Kidding, of course, but he did seem to pose the possibility of cancellation as not unlikely... which I guess is probably the case. Wish we could hear one way or the other, regardless. Hmm... I wonder what a season of AD costs to produce...

  • Trek is getting long in the tooth (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Spock the Baptist ( 455355 ) on Friday April 15, 2005 @03:57PM (#12248285) Journal
    It needs a rest. At least on TV.

  • The series is in a permanent vegetative state. (Score:5, Funny)

    by IvyMike ( 178408 ) on Friday April 15, 2005 @03:57PM (#12248286)
    Please, can't we just let it die with dignity?
  • We could tell they were lying when we saw their lips move!

    (Still in denial... still in denial...)

  • good thing. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by circusboy ( 580130 )
    maybe they can find writers with a slightly wider world view...
  • Nothing for you to see here. Please move along.

    As seen Wednesday nights at 8:00pm central on UPN.
    Har har har. :/

    Seriously, though. Even though I've never gotten into the series, I hope for the sake of hardcore ST fans it's allowed to continue in Canada. Maybe the show will get even better as a result, a la X-Files (only in reverse this time). :)
  • which is way to easy anyhow.

    The other side of Paramount which said the cancellation was "final." There are only two things in life that are final - death and taxes. Even the latter is not always final. So given that, throw enough money or potential money at Paramount and the "final cancellation" will get changed to "due to recent considerations, there will be a 5th season of Enterprise."

    On a side note, I did like seeing Twilight again this past Friday and cannot wait for the season/series finale (

  • I have the feeling ... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by stinerman ( 812158 ) on Friday April 15, 2005 @04:00PM (#12248347)
    I think Paramount wants to kill off Enterprise because they're ready to start with something fresh after Berman/Braga are canned. It seems to me that a company that is consistantly rejecting bribes to keep a rather popular show on the air is either incredibly stupid, or has an ace up their sleeve and doesn't want anyone to know about it.

    Well, either that or they're trying to piss off the people who watch it via bittorrent (quite a few if I'm not mistaken).
    "Haha!!! That'll show you commie pirates! We'll just cancel whatever you like to download."
    • That's funny...I thought they were cancelling it because the ratings were too low to support the cost of production.
      • Perhaps the engineer created a neutrino-T-wave nullifier which went out over a subspace channel and modified the Nielsen ratings computer so that it looked like Enterprise, despite being an absolute pile of foetid donkey kidney stones, was a big money maker.

        Or perhaps the fans of this show have a distinct lack of taste.

  • Not worth saving. (Score:4, Funny)

    by EpsCylonB ( 307640 ) <eps&epscylonb,com> on Friday April 15, 2005 @04:00PM (#12248349) Homepage
    When good geeks go bad.

  • Actually (Score:5, Interesting)

    by TheRealFixer ( 552803 ) on Friday April 15, 2005 @04:01PM (#12248356)
    Actually, if you read Paramount's statement carefully, it's worded a little oddly. It basically states that Enterprise on UPN is through. I thought it was strange they specified UPN, especially with all the talk about moving the show to another channel...

    • Re:Actually (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Monkey ( 795756 )
      I'm going to be majorly irked if next year Enterprise is resurrected on some other network.

      Basically this would come off like a major publicity stunt and would make Enterprise even lamer than it is now.

      It would be cool if they would bring it back every two years for a five or six episode miniseries, but that would only work if they covered major trek events that are already established. The Romulian war, the Klingon War, First Contact with important groups, like the Trill....but that won't happen...
    • If they pull Enterprise off UPN that will leave what, wacky African-American comedies too dumb for the WB?

  • We're awesome, eh? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Kimos ( 859729 ) <kimos.slashdotNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday April 15, 2005 @04:02PM (#12248370) Homepage
    Hah! And people ask why I love this country so much!
  • What the ST Universe really needs is for Rick Berman to step down, and to let someone else take the helm. Maybe even wait a couple years, and then come out with a series that actually harkens back to the original- instead of trying to ignore it or worse. Until that happens, the entire franchise will continue to struggle.
  • ... "It's dead, Jim."

  • Interesting... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by nebaz ( 453974 ) on Friday April 15, 2005 @04:05PM (#12248436)
    Stargate-SG1 and Atlantis are both filmed in Vancouver. Farscape was Australia(?), is all Sci-Fi destined to be outsourced?
    • We also got BattleStar though with an American cast (eeeewwww).

      At least all the hot ones are still Canadian.

      As far as outsourcing goes, Sci-Fi has been able to keep the same budget but produce way higher quality by moving outside of L.A. and really the whole concept of producing television in L.A. is outdated, you don't need guest appearances by movie stars every week to keep a show with a decent plot alive.
    • I think a lot of X-Files was done in Vancouver too.
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • They can have Enterprise (Score:3, Informative)

    by slusich ( 684826 ) * <slusich@gmail.COMMAcom minus punct> on Friday April 15, 2005 @04:06PM (#12248447)
    But only if they start exporting Corner Gas.
    Trust me, we'd be getting the better end of the deal.
    • For Americans who don't get Canadian channels, Corner Gas is the first significantly successful Canadian-produced sitcom in decades. Its an ensemble cast, 'clean' humour (very little sexual innuendo), but very witty and intelligent. Set in small town Saskatchewan its very different than most US sitcoms which are typically family or big-city officeplace based. Interest by US networks is rising quickly as all the American import sitcoms have lost head-to-head (even against re-runs) -- Everyone Loves Raymond,
      • I've seen an episode or two, but honestly, even being Canadian, couldn't bring myself to like it.

        This in no way means that I like Joey, Raymond or other insipid garbage.

  • In the next exciting episode... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Marko DeBeeste ( 761376 ) on Friday April 15, 2005 @04:07PM (#12248449)
    ...Enterprise is ordered to deliver a mysterious cargo labelled only "WHIPS" to the planet Equus Mortis.
  • "It's been a Long Road, get*BLAM BLAM BLAM*"
    - Anonymous singer, Vedran Archives, CY 2005

    "The boardrooms of UPN are a dangerous place! But in our future, my crew and I fight to make it safe! I am Dylan Hunt, captain of the Enterprise Ascendant, and these are our adventures!"

    (What, it's not like there isn't precedent for a hot shipboard computer. Back in TOS, I wouldn't have kicked Majel Barrett outa bed either. Rommie's just an upgraded version, isn't she?)

    • No...Alexa Doig is MUCH MUCH hotter then Majel Barret ever was. And she's not even dressed that provocatively. No miniskirts or anything needed. She's just naturally hot.
  • Ah well, at least I'll get free healthcare now.

  • Beam me up Scotty, ay?

  • Its time to let it go people..

    Look at the farscape fans.. We got a 'finale' and let it die a dignified death..
  • Is Enterprise heading to canada?

    The short answer is "Yes!"
    However our correspondant has learned that upon ariving there, Mr. Spock was overheard saying "What the fuck is wrong with these people?"

    Captain Kirk, on the other hand could not be reached, as he was getting smashed with Scotty and Bones at a local hockey bar.

    Film at 11: "Wrath of Khan"

  • So you've got this money.

    And you've got all this energy.

    And what are you doing with it?

    Trying to save a TV show that even its defenders rarely describe in terms nicer than "it wasn't THAT bad", and whose plot is going to be wrapped up at the end of the season whatever you do.

    While you've got all this excitement and energy and potential funding, why not direct it into more potentially productive efforts-- like, trying to get Paramount or some other production company to put together a new, GOOD show? (Pr
  • Viacom executives are considering the proposal, despite another branch of Paramount saying the cancellation was final just a few days ago.

    Maybe they were planning to cancel it here, aire it in Canada, and they thought we'd never find out about it. Heh heh heh... Thanks to Slashdot, their evil scheme was foiled! I'll get you next time, Gadget, next time!!!

  • I wonder if the cast would want to move to (or at least live in) Canada for six to nine months a year. Presumably they would shoot in Vancouver, which already has an established film industry in place, so it wouldn't be like they were moving to Moose Jaw, but it's still a major change. If it's being funded by Canadians, there's also US $ to Can $ issues to consider. Not only that, but it's possible that cast members may already have other commitments. There's also the question of having to deal with an
  • Not to say that it wasn't due to the poor writing, acting, etc. but I one of the thing that may have contributed to the death of Enterprise is the lack of a consistent time slot. I don't know how UPN had this thing scheduled, but in my local market the new episodes were run at 2:30 am. Not a rebroadcast of the same episode shown earlier that evening, that was the only time they ever showed it.
    • Another major problem with Enterprise on UPN is that on any given Friday (happened with Wednesdays too) during basketball season, 30% or so of the alleged "network affiliates" pre-empt the Network programmign for their local NBA francise. Even here in Orlando, where the majority of the town stopped caring about the "Magic" YEARS ago.

      Kind of hard to maintain a decent rating when 1/3 of your market isn't counted on a given week.

  • Anyone see the news on the cast wrap party? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ravenspear ( 756059 ) on Friday April 15, 2005 @04:26PM (#12248721)
    The actors [startrek.com] seem to know something you all don't.

    This show is as dead as a doornail right now and won't be coming back.
  • Officer: Captain! A group of geeks and Canadians are so willing to help our fledgling Enterprise that they have expressed interest in even helping to pay for our ship's repairs!

    Captain: Excellent! Bring them aboard, make them Ensigns, then set course for Romulus! Warp 9!
  • Good to know that Enterprise might have another chance of survival, but on the other side ST:ENT never was that great, it had a bunch of nice episodes, but far to many bad and boring ones, same was already true for Voyager and especially the last TNG movie was just awfull. So unless Enterprise gets significantly better I am really not so sure if bad StarTrek is really better than no StarTrek. Especially the comparism with Star Trek: Hidden Frontier [hiddenfrontier.org] makes ST:ENT and ST:VOY look bad. Hidden Frontier is a fan
  • The American accent of the computer voice will change.

    'Bout time.
    • I can see it now, replacing Majel Barrett with Doug MacKenzie.

      Picard: Tea, earl grey, hot.
      Computer: Hey, we're out of tea, but how 'bout some back bacon and beer, eh?

      Ryker: Computer, locate Lt. Cmd. Data.
      Computer: Go find him yourself, hoser. Take off, eh!
  • If the storylines are going to be just as rubbish for this new series I hope they can show they've got a sense of humour by using 'Blame Canada' as the outro theme music.

    In fact, even Celine Dion would be better than the current intro music.

  • OMFG! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by erroneus ( 253617 ) on Friday April 15, 2005 @04:39PM (#12248889) Homepage
    It's JUST a TV show!!!!!!

    Please... everyone backing this... this.... just can't go on! It's... insane!

    I think it's great that people can still be passionate about a cause, but let's make it something that really affects the world we live in! How about something like backing politics that fight against the ridiculously evil things going on now that are attempting to take your freedoms away?

    I know this will be marked as a troll or off-topic or something but I hope before it does, I actually reach someone.

    There's a bunch of people out there that could make a BIG difference if they pull together to make it happen. It's happening now but the cause is a freaking form of entertainment that lines the pockets of people who don't know or care about you in the least. On the other hand, there are causes that could really improve peoples lives.

    Truthfully, are we saying that the effort and resources used to save a TV show should be more significant than those spent in preserving our way of life or making it better? Are we REALLY just a bunch of people who would rather lose our freedoms just so that we can watch a TV show? (Bear in mind that there are plenty of religious fundies who would just LOVE to cancel Star Trek and any SciFi that questions the existance of their god.)

    This is one show... I wish the same effort was put into a cause that actually improves life in the here, now and future. I find it incredulous to witness people caring so little about our government and law and so much about something so trivial.

    • Re:OMFG! (Score:3, Funny)

      by JudgeFurious ( 455868 )
      Yeah! We could fix things and change the world and stuff. We could be like heroes or something!

      Naaaaaaaah, lets go to White Castle, I'm hungry.

    • Re:OMFG! (Score:3, Insightful)

      by zakezuke ( 229119 )
      Please... everyone backing this... this.... just can't go on! It's... insane!

      Why not. I have to admit, I too question the sanity of these people who are digging deep in their pockets and spending so much time in order to rescue something from the rubbish bin, but I for one encourage them. We all, for the most part, have disposable income which we spend on entertainment, even those who only spend money on blank media.

      I for one don't see this as being a bunch of zelots trying to save their TV show, but r
  • You know, the guys who do it out of their dad's basement?

  • Teela Brown Syndrome (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rewinn ( 647614 ) on Friday April 15, 2005 @04:53PM (#12249108) Homepage

    The Star Trek franchise has long struggled to escape the Teela Brown syndrome.

    Teela Brown, from Larry Niven's "Known World" series, embodies the concept that after an SF Universe has developed enough really, really keen ideas, authors have trouble coming up with interesting plots. Teela Brown was so effectively bred for Good Luck that nothing really bad could happen to her, which is boring from a plot standpoint (Niven found a great one-time exception to the rule, but that won't work for a series.)

    Original Star Trek: had a great sense of "Anything Can Happen" because no-one really knew what was Out There. And Anything DID happen, which was great for making stories! However, after the Treaty of Organia, the Gaurdian Of Time, the Doomsday Device, and Poor Lazarus jamming the door from alternate universes, it was getting harder and harder to come up with plausible threats. Thank goodness for the Klingons who were just powerful enough to be threatening whenever they were needed!

    ST:TNG wisely ignored the Teela Brown stuff ... for some reason the Organians didn't interfere with the Klingons, Cardassians, Borg, etc.... Creatures who could have been series-killers were given useful limitations, e.g. Q was a joker, the Borg both too far away to bother destroying the Federation in the near future and yet close enough to do it if they felt grouchy, and so on. A nice balance of threats kept open the possibilities.

    ST:DS9 overtly balanced the great powers; in some sense it was all about balancing the various cosmic threats & opportunities for the Federation. And ... most notably ... once the major conflicts were resolved (the Dominion went home and the Wormhole Aliens finished writing their novel) the series ended! There was nothing more to say on the subject, and hopefully we won't get a movie from it.

    ST: Voyager got a balance of problems by throwing the ship far far away from the Federation. Once again Anything Could Happen: Federation technology could be either useless or the perfect McGuffin, whenever it was needed. But once the underlying problem was solved --- the ship got Home --- the series was over, no movies please!

    ST: Enterprise got the only remaining really large era of uncertainty in the ST Universe: the past, prior to the Federation. However, we know how the story arc must end: The Federation is created. That puts a limit on the stories, e.g. the Earth can't really get blown up because someone would just have to re-build it so Kirk can get born there.

    ST: Canada So what is left? Where in the ST Universe is there enough uncertainty to make interesting plots?

  • I simply don't understand the zealotry here. If this was a good show (which it is not by almost every barometer of taste) then I could understand it. Why arent they trying to save the franchise rather than the show? Wouldnt it make more sense to say "Hey, give US a better new show" rather than "save the show that no one watched". WIth BSG having the raised the bar so high - I find this all very hard to understand.
  • Has anyone seen the movie 'Trekkies'? Do you realize how crazy people are about this show? I mean... wow.
  • For the sake of all that is decent and vaguely interesting, let this pile of shit die. The series was bad, worse than Voyager (which I didn't actually think was possible).
  • ...where no Canuck has gone before, eh?

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